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Main Forums => Moms Without Custody => Topic started by: Butterfly on Aug 28, 2004, 07:17:43 PM

Title: Reasonable Expectations
Post by: Butterfly on Aug 28, 2004, 07:17:43 PM
For the most part, I find that one of my greatest weaknesses is caring about what other people think of me as a mother.  As much as I'd like to shout to the world, "I don't care what you think. You are NOT my yardstick when it comes to defining a 'good' mother."  I find myself oftentimes trying to 'prove' that I am a good non-residential mother to a point of obsession.

Like MixedBag, I've been on SPARC and numerous other stepfamily forums for years now grappling with this marginalized role in which I find myself.  It seems that no matter how well I fulfill this role as NCP, it will never be good enough and I'll always come in as a distant second to her father simply because I'm not allowed to do the primary physical caregiving of our daughter due to divorce.

I'll always be considered a second class parent.  The afterthought parent.

Have any of you ever burned yourself out...to a point of emotional and financial bankruptcy trying to do the impossible: meet societal expectations of your role as 'mother' and failing?

Intellectually, I know that all my efforts are being noticed by my daughter.  I have effectively kept parental alienation at bay or at least, at minimum reduced its full impact.

I know that all my efforts were not in vain.  I intellectually know this but at the same time, for me to keep this up is not allowing me to thrive in my own life.  My life has become and centered around trying to a be a good LDNCBM.  It's life-consuming, energy draining and leaves little to no room in my life for anything else...that is, without fear that I will fail my little one in some respect.

I'm afraid to tell her "No" I can't travel the twelve hours it takes to drive one-way for EOW visitation because I want to do something that improves my quality of life...like do a long-run for a marathon I'm trying, in vain, to participate in.

That's but one of a multitude of examples.  I just 'feel' as though my entire life has become about my post-divorce parental category and the fear of failing my child if I'm not investing everything I have into just her.

I'm tired.  It's as though I live my life emotionally to survive all these years instead of thrive.
Title: Maybe (I truly hope I did) I misunderstood...
Post by: gr8Dad on Aug 29, 2004, 08:21:49 PM
...but if you are not visiting the child, because you are getting ready to run a marathon, that is not really a good reason to not see the child.
Title: You misunderstood...
Post by: Butterfly on Aug 29, 2004, 09:14:14 PM
and really, I do not need my post analyzed to death for a judgement call on your part.  (Though I expected it, nonetheless, how sad.)

I live twelve hours, one-way from my child.  We are not discussing a few miles but more like 695 miles away from her.  

The last four years have been nothing BUT about her.  I'm VERY active in her life despite the distance.   I used training for a marathon as an example of something I'd love to do, for once, for myself.

It doesn't surprise me that you intentionally refuse to empathize with how it feels to survive instead of thrive as a post-divorced parent.

Edited to add:  I'm discussing EOW vistation with this type of distance.

Title: RE: Reasonable Expectations
Post by: MixedBag on Sep 01, 2004, 04:28:42 PM
Girl, I think you need to stop trying to "compete" with dad and just be Mom.....with the cards that have been dealt to you.

Given the distance, and the fact that you work M-F, 8-5, geez.....

I know what you're going through ....

There's nothing wrong with self-improvement efforts because you would do that stuff even if you were in an "intact/no divorce" family.  

Go back to school, train for your marathon, pick up a sport activity.....normal parents do stuff like that outside their work environment too.  So why shouldn't you?

Look at Eric....he's going to school (taking time away from G) and moving forward.  Sure he feels more confident about doing so because he's with G most of the time, but you in some senses should take advantage because G is NOT with you all the time.

Probably ain't making sense again...

Title: Thanks Mixed...
Post by: Butterfly on Sep 01, 2004, 06:03:29 PM
I think that these feelings are coming about lately because Dad, during his bout of being spiteful, managed short term EOW visitation and now I'm feeling the twinge to do the same long-term...it isn't reasonable or cost effective with the amount of distance we are talking about...it's exhausting just thinking about it.  This Labor Day weekend, I have off work...hubby wants to drive from FL to spend time with me and made these plans AFTER I had promised my daughter that same weekend with me.  SUCKS to be in the middle and be torn in two different directions...feeling guilty no matter which decision I make, as though once again, I'm never going to be a 'good ' mother if I choose other obligations over her for once.

I know you understand.  I'm just vocalizing my frustrations and exhaustion.

Though, on a good note, SM and I are getting along VERY well these days...who would have thought?  I should send you the e-mail she sent me...be forewarned that you might want to be sitting down, she actually praises me as a mother and shows respect for me for the very first time in FOUR years.

It took my breath away...speechless.
Title: RE: Thanks Mixed...
Post by: MixedBag on Sep 01, 2004, 07:09:18 PM
Lucky you!

I'd never get something like that from fake-wife.....she'd rather drop dead first.

You know....weekend with DH vs. weekend with G......in your case, I'd take weekend with DH.

Why?

Count the days this say past 6 months you've had with him...

And then count the days you've had with her.....

And you two deserve time together too.
Title: You have issues and problems...
Post by: gr8Dad on Sep 01, 2004, 10:54:42 PM
...that I cannot BEGIN to address here.  I WILL start by saying that me making ONE comment about ONE item in your post is, how did you put it, "I do not need my post analyzed to death for a judgement call on your part"

I HAVE analyzed entire posts before, and believe me, to ANALYZE a post of multiple lines take MORE than one line.

As for EMPATHIZING, you couldn't be more wrong.  My ex, despite her abuse and absolute failure at parenting, gets the children for three hours in the afternoon of EVERY saturday.  The children cannot do ANYTHING over a weekend without her permission.  No vacations to Disney, no weekends camping, NOTHING.

What do I do about it?  I PLAN around it.  Best I can do.  

When I was the non custodial parent, I DID NOT plan anything on the weekends I had my children.  Before the visitation was set up, and my ex refused to let me see the children, I SAT outside the house, on the street in my car, hoping for a GLIMPSE of the children, or to say hello.

I made ONE comment, about something you said I misunderstood, yet you took it as an attack.

Learn to stop judging people on who you THINK they are, and read what they write instead.  You might be surprised and learn something.
Title: Not to point out the obvious...
Post by: Butterfly on Sep 01, 2004, 11:29:44 PM
but sitting outside of the residential parent's home, no matter if your intentions are good, could be interpreted as harrassment/stalking of that parent.  Personally, I'm not going to give DD7's father any reason to file a frivilous lawsuit.  

I drive approximately twelve hours one-way to spend EOW with my daughter.  I'll be doing that this weekend.

I certainly do not need someone dictating to me on how to be a responsible long-distance parent.  I'm handling this role quite well and in my child's best interest.

My only 'issue' is your contemptuous responses to the majority of posts in this new board.  You may have a lot of sound wisdom to impart to some of the issues presented...unfortunately, that message gets lost in the delivery.  

I'm positive that it's safe to say that the fine women on here are not your ex-wife nor have committed despicable acts against your child or you...please stop misplacing your anger as though we are her.
Title: And THAt is the problem, RIGHT there...
Post by: gr8Dad on Sep 02, 2004, 04:35:23 AM
You write:

"Not to point out the obvious...
but sitting outside of the residential parent's home, no matter if your intentions are good, could be interpreted as harrassment/stalking of that parent. Personally, I'm not going to give DD7's father any reason to file a frivilous lawsuit."

If you READ my post, I did not say that YOU should do this, I was making the point that we go to extremes and do the extra for our children and in order to see our children.

"I drive approximately twelve hours one-way to spend EOW with my daughter. I'll be doing that this weekend."

And for that you derseve to be called a parent.

"I certainly do not need someone dictating to me on how to be a responsible long-distance parent. I'm handling this role quite well and in my child's best interest."

I dictated NOTHING to you, I simply ASKED if you were saying that you were going to train for a marathon, INSTEAD of seeing your children.  I didn't even ACCUSE you, and even ADDED that I HOPED I misunderstood.

"My only 'issue' is your contemptuous responses to the majority of posts in this new board."

You may want to check your math.  There are over 200 posts on this board, I have posted 12, including this one.  That would be a little over 5%, and a FAR cry from a "majority".

"You may have a lot of sound wisdom to impart to some of the issues presented...unfortunately, that message gets lost in the delivery."

So your saying that if I expect people to listen, I should kiss their butt instead of telling them like it is?  Sorry, can't DO that.  I have BTDT with a LOT in my life.  People don't wish to listen to the voice of experience, too bad.

"I'm positive that it's safe to say that the fine women on here are not your ex-wife nor have committed despicable acts against your child or you...please stop misplacing your anger as though we are her."

My anger has NOTHING to do with my ex even.  I am sick of giving advice here, or commenting on something, and if I am not rubberstamping someone, it is turned into an attack, and I am accused of insulting someone.  You REALLY need to READ the post, extract the info, and move on.
Title: RE: Reasonable Expectations
Post by: mmrscupcakes on Sep 02, 2004, 01:26:28 PM
Don't feel like a afterthought  parent.  What you need to do is change you current court order.  My ex and I meet half way on visitation weekends.  However we are just 4 hours away from each other.  But  I think  this is a reasonable request.  And this allows for you to have more time with your child.

I live in Virginia  and this is a order that was set into my court order 12 years ago.  I hope this suggestion works for you .   And you do deserve time to do for your self without feeling guiltly .  
Title: RE: You have issues and problems...
Post by: olanna on Sep 04, 2004, 02:56:48 AM
"You have issues and problems that I cannot BEGIN to address here"...

"Learn to stop judging people on who you THINK they are, and read what they write instead. You might be surprised and learn something."
 
Title: If he really wanted to impart wisdom, he wouldn't start his posts
Post by: olanna on Sep 04, 2004, 03:15:51 AM
in the condescending manner he chooses.  If he is here to offer support and wisdom, I'm not feeling it. And I get the feeling from the other women on this board, the feeling is unanimous.
Title: Is there anyway
Post by: olanna on Sep 04, 2004, 03:24:44 AM
that Dad could meet you half-way?  Could you afford to fly instead of drive once a month?  

What about you flying to her one weekend and her flying to you the next weekend?

I know it might seem crazy, but do you two have web cams so you can see each other and talk to each other?  It's kinda nice to see the kid..see their expressions...

Also...is there any way you could relocate to be closer?

I am sure you might have addressed some of these things already and I missed them. But I am trying to think of ways that it might make things a tad better.

I don't know of very many parents that spend 48 hours a month in a car to see their kids. It sounds draining.  Is there a chance you can work some other arrangement out with Dad?
Title: And if you wanted to be...
Post by: gr8Dad on Sep 04, 2004, 07:09:14 AM
..."love bombed", this site is NOT the place to come.  I am not HERE to offer "support and wisdom".  Support is not my forte, and I ain't smart enough to impart wisdom.  I give advice, plain and simple.  I don't beat around the bush, I tell it like it is, damn the torpedos.  Don't like it?  Don't click on my posts, cause you know what is going to be there.
Title: I gave up trying to see my son after my ex moved him as far away
Post by: Sherry1 on Sep 04, 2004, 07:52:19 AM
from me as he could, to Alaska.  I did whatever I could to maintain contact, i.e. phone calls, cards, etc.  But there comes a time when one just can't do it anymore.  I did not see my son for three years.  My ex is a very nasty man that brainwashed my son and took him away from me.  There wasn't a damn thing I could do to fix the situation.  My son worshipped the ground my ex walked on, and I had attempted to talk my ex into some sense and help me get my son for visits.  My son told me if I ever made his dad mad again he would never see me ever again.  I had to walk a fine line of keeping the channels open with my son and not tick him or my ex off.  

But you know what, these kids grow up and become adults (my son did), and after my son turned 18 and he moved one state away from me I was able to rebuild the relationship that my asshole of an ex took away from me.

You can only do what you can do physically, emotionally and mentally.  There are those on these boards that have not a clue what the dynamics can be and the emotional hardship we have to go through (men, women, CP's & NCP's).
Title: Insults are not advice...
Post by: olanna on Sep 04, 2004, 08:53:03 AM
and you don't get to decide what any of us can expect from this site.

Dr. Jen speaks constantly about us supporting each other and loving each other. Her signature here is "living and loving" and her approach has never included insults to any of us or torpedos, if you will.

I have found so much loving support on these boards, I just hate to see people come here and insult others for the way they are feeling.  I hope you either adopt a more considerate attitude or you find another group to insult that will enjoy your tactics and your condescending attitude. Since this is a public message board, we will have to put up with you, just as you do with us.

cheers,

Olanna
Title: RE: And if you wanted to be...
Post by: Gecko on Sep 04, 2004, 03:46:43 PM
[em][font color=green]I give advice, plain and simple.[/em][/font]

Really?!?  I didn't see you dispensing any "advise", all I read was condemnation.
Title: I GIVE advice...
Post by: gr8Dad on Sep 04, 2004, 04:52:11 PM
But if that advice is not prefaced with, "Well, GOOD Mommy, you are doing SUCH a good job..." it is labeled as an attack, or an insult.  I have NEVER began by insulting.  I have given advice, and I have "answered" accusations of attacks.  If you cannot take advice from someone that does not stroke you on a MESSAGE board, you will get CHEWED up in court.
Title: You insult....
Post by: olanna on Sep 04, 2004, 06:52:29 PM
and it's all too obvious. No one is asking you to stroke them. It would be nice if you could respect the person as a person when you address them, but hey, can't help you never learned tact.

You think only those with tender hearts get chewed up in court?? You should consider a career in comedy, as that was pretty funny.  I've seen much less mannered and tactful than you get eaten alive in court.  But you brought up court...I was talking about respecting each other here on a *support* board.
Title: Anyone that starts out a post with " you have issues I cannot address on this board"
Post by: olanna on Sep 04, 2004, 06:55:01 PM
or "you need help" is insulting and condescending.  He isn't trying to help anyone...and honestly, I haven't figured out just what he *is* trying to do here.
Title: Is this a "support" board?
Post by: gr8Dad on Sep 04, 2004, 10:33:04 PM
I thought this was the "Shared Parenting Access and Resource Center".  I don't see "support" in there anywhere.  Only Access and Resource, both of which I provide.
Title: Anything, taken out of context, can look bad...
Post by: gr8Dad on Sep 04, 2004, 10:42:08 PM
So how about, just for LAUGHS, we look at ALL that was said?  Okay?

I said, IN THE SUBJECT line, that I HOPED that I misunderstood, and that if she WAS missing visitation to train for a marathon, it was wrong.

To which SHE responded with:

"and really, I do not need my post analyzed to death for a judgement call on your part. (Though I expected it, nonetheless, how sad.)

I live twelve hours, one-way from my child. We are not discussing a few miles but more like 695 miles away from her.

The last four years have been nothing BUT about her. I'm VERY active in her life despite the distance. I used training for a marathon as an example of something I'd love to do, for once, for myself.

It doesn't surprise me that you intentionally refuse to empathize with how it feels to survive instead of thrive as a post-divorced parent."

She is OBVIOUSLY angry about something, and decided to take that anger out on me.  Now, if you are angry at someone else, and take that anger out on an anonymous poster for some percieved insult that simply DIDN'T occur, that would be an indicator that you needed help, or that you had some serious issues.  I simply pointed that out.

What I find MOST interesting is that it is QUITE obvious that she reacted angrily to a simply question, which WAS a misunderstanding (which I eluded to in my post by SAYING "I HOPE I misunderstand"), and NO ONE is saying a WORD to her about it.

That is what is the problem with having a board like this, and I KNEW it was going to happen.  Women are more than welcome on the Father's Board, but when a man posts over here, his post is held to some draconian standard, and a woman's transgressions are glossed over.
Title: RE: Is there anyway
Post by: MixedBag on Sep 05, 2004, 01:05:14 PM
Brief history:

Both parents active duty military.

SHE took a job to get out of town -- couldn't mentally handle the stuff that happened in court and it was a good lateral career move too.  Put her 15 hours away one way from her daughter.

SHE married another active duty officer -- fighter pilot.

EX moved to a base that's now 12 hours away in a different direction.

So -- moving to be near her daughter is impossible because her husband can't get a job at the base her EX is at.

I was privy to the last round of "negotiations" she was having with her EX -- and you wouldn't believe what he was proposing.

I've been after her to get her original order fixed to be realistic for a long distance situation -- but her EX wants to cut time away from her and that's something she's just not willing to do.

Flying?  EX has their daughter mentally afraid to fly.....

Hope that helps you understand the details more of her situation.
Title: RE: Is there anyway
Post by: MixedBag on Sep 05, 2004, 02:47:35 PM
An example of what Dad did to Mom (and I forgot how many times over the summer).

Their plan is the typical every other weekend situation and Mom has to pick up her daughter and bring her back.

Over the summer and school holidays, it flip-flops and Dad has to pick up the daughter and bring her back (EOW).  

The school schedule used to be a 10-month period with longer breaks and now since Dad moved too, it's a 9 month period with a really long summer break.

Dad used to keep G at the beginning of the summer and not let Mom pick up her daughter until his "weekend days" from the summer were made up because Dad refused to drive EOW to go get her.

I can see it from Dad's side -- but in the end, I say Dad's being a big you know what because Mom gave up so many weekends after Mom's military move and Dad should have just done the same.

Then there's the wonderful court system -- and this Dad knows how to use it.  Dad's in contracting by trade and NOTHING that he writes up is less than one page.  Then you add Mom's personality and all those long words and long winded thoughts of hers Mom has -- and that makes for a real fun situation.  Ain't nothing new to Mom, we've talked so many times before about the fact that Mom uses what I call 25 cent words instead of plain simple english.  But Dad's the same way.  

Anyway, right now Dad gets the full summer.  Kicker is that this summer, his wife was deployed overseas.  SO Dad went to see G every other weekend -- which amounted to about 4 trips.  Dad worked it out with his bosses somehow and didn't have to take leave even though technically he should have.  Mom has 9 months of "time" like this to have EOW.....and a husband who lives in the other direction.

I can also say BTDT with the court on two things here....

When I went back to court in 2001 because I retired, I asked the court for custody or MORE TIME with my son because I would be a self-employed SAHM.  My judge came back and said that my son was doing just fine, he didn't NEED any additional time with me.  My EX  said "Why should I give you more time when you don't use what you have?"  (Said this in court AND on the boards)....  See I have in addition to the normal stuff, "one weekend a month given two weeks notice to the EX.  My son lives a 12 hour drive from me one way and I never used it while I was on active duty.  Yea right, how am I supposed to get there by friday at 5:15 and take him back on Sunday at 7:00 pm and STILL work M-F......  

Mom manages to use it every once in a while.    And Dad wither with holds his time at the beginning of the summer or uses the EOW (first time in about 5 years).

My personal solution because I now use the one weekend a month is to turn the trip into a business expense via a rental house.  So far so good....for me because I have the time too (no M-F job to report to).

Then there's the moving issue -- and sharing transportation.  Dad will fight this every single step of the way.  Again from personal experience, DH's EX moved away from their original location.  The original court ordered a reduction in child support to offset this expense.  Then the new court took it all away citing the fact that DH makes 2x what his EX makes (though she hides income), stating that there is case law to support this.  Well, in the original court the income ratio was 95/5....and he still got the reduction in transportation.  Another thing the EX's attorney argued was that neither party lived in the original state, therefore, his argument that SHE MOVED FIRST is null and void.  We shall see how this goes as it is under appeal (still).

And yes, my court supported the fact that I pay transportation -- so I know it can happen (an offset to CS).  Their original state of jurisdiction actually does not allow an offset to CS by law.  The order will split actual responsibility.  

Dad also refused to cooperate and allow G to obtain a passport.  I know people think that parents can pose a flight risk by taking a child overseas, and my EX is the same way.  But ALL FOUR parents are active duty.  Mom isn't gonna "go anywhere" with the child without the federal government coming after her for being AWOL.  (Yep, my EX complained about the same thing -- and I was active duty. )

Mom definitely has some stuff regarding her time with her daughter to work out.....and hopefully it will get resolved over time.   Looks like she'll be moving even further away in less than 6 months and then what?  Only she knows....
Title: I just realized something...
Post by: gr8Dad on Sep 05, 2004, 03:02:40 PM
Your tagline of "People with nothing to hide, hide nothing..." was strangely familiar to me, but I just COULDN'T put my finger on it.  Then it hit me, it is a famous excuse or rational used by fascists and nazis to justify searching your person, or your place of residence, or other wise removing all of your rights.  "Vell, if you haf nothing to hide, vy vould you object to us searching your home?"

Not an insult, don't get in an uproar, merely a fact.
Title: I actually heard Dr. Phil say it and I liked it...
Post by: olanna on Sep 05, 2004, 05:47:09 PM
but I liken you finding that meaning to NYMOM saying deltabravo.net represented some military force to gain control of the courts...

Title: Yep...this is a support board
Post by: olanna on Sep 05, 2004, 05:49:04 PM
and I don't remember you providing access or a resource to anyone on this board.. but hey, don't let me rain on your parade.

P.S. it's a NCM support board as defined by TGB and Dr. Jen...see, you really are in the wrong sand box!
Title: RE: Yep...this is a support board
Post by: richiejay on Sep 07, 2004, 07:16:27 PM
I know you don't get along with gr8dad, but why are your posts so full of utter contempt?
Title: Cuz he doesn't want to be "love bombed"....eom
Post by: olanna on Sep 07, 2004, 10:07:29 PM
.
Title: RE: Is this a
Post by: Brent on Sep 10, 2004, 02:22:17 PM
>I thought this was the "Shared Parenting Access and Resource
>Center".  I don't see "support" in there anywhere.  Only
>Access and Resource, both of which I provide.

Yes, this is a "support board, even though it's not in the name. There are a lot of things SPARC does that didn't make it into the name. :)