http://www.wakeweekly.com/story2.shtml
The Wake Weekly
PO Box 1919 - 229 E. Owen Ave.
Wake Forest, NC 27588
Franklin County mother kills teens, self
by Lindsay Varner, Wake Weekly Staff Writer
December 30, 2004
A Franklin County woman shot and killed her two teenage children and herself early Wednesday morning in a mobile home off Flat Rock Church Road.
Caroline Ollison, 36, of 33 Whites Lane, Louisburg, was found dead by her roommate, Tammy Jackson, around 3 a.m., Franklin County Sheriff Jerry Jones said.
Jones said the apparent cause of death was a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head. After EMS and a deputy arrived at the scene, a deputy went through the doublewide to check on Ollison's children. Jones said the deputy found Nicole Ollison, 14, dead in the living room.
"She was shot point blank in the head while she was sleeping," Jones said.
The deputy then found Reginald "R.J." Ollison, 13, shot to death in a bedroom. R.J. was also shot in the head and neck while sleeping, Jones said.
He said investigators believe Ollison shot her daughter first, then traveled to her son's bedroom to shoot him before returning to the bedroom she shared with Jackson and turning the rifle on herself. The noise awakened Jackson who called authorities.
Jones said the children lived with their father, Reginald Ollison, in the Durham area. Reginald Ollison was separated from his wife, who had only recently been granted permission for the children to visit her during the holidays.
Ollison had lived in the county for two or three months, Jones said. He said the children had only been at the mobile home for a few days.
Investigators have not established a motive. Jackson and her 12-year-old son were unharmed.
Last Updated On: December 30, 2004
http://www.click2houston.com/news/828906/detail.html
Police: Houston Mother Kills 5 Children
Police Discover Children Inside Home
HOUSTON -- Police discovered five children dead inside a southeast Houston home around 10 a.m. Wednesday.
Police said that they were called to a home in the 900 block of Beachcomber Lane in Clear Lake after receiving a telephone call from the mother, Andrea Yates.
Yates, 36, was taken away in handcuffs by police and was charged with multiple capital murder charges Wednesday night.
When police arrived, they found five children dead inside the home, police said.
Yates answered the door and allegedly told police that she had killed her children. They believe that Yates drowned all five children, police said.
"When our responding officer arrived, he was met at the door by the woman, who was breathing heavily and you could tell she was disturbed," Houston Police Department spokesman John Cannon said. "At that time, she said to the officer, 'I killed my children.'"
The children, four boys and one girl, range in age from 6 months to 7 years old.
"She led the officer to the bedroom, where there were four bodies, and then led the officer to the bathroom, where there was one body in the bathtub," Cannon said.
Police spokesman Alvin Wright said that 7-year-old Noah Yates was found in a bathtub.
The boys and a girl were discovered on the bed with a sheet covering them. They were identified as Mary Yates, 6 months; Luke Yates, 2; Paul Yates, 3; and John Yates, 5, according to police.
Yates' husband, Russell Yates, was called home from work by Yates, but he was initially too grief-stricken to talk with police. They have been married for eight years.
Russell Yates After Hearing NewsRussell Yates (pictured, left) works for NASA at Johnson Space Center in the shuttle program. Several NASA response psychologists arrived at Yates' home to try and comfort him.
[IMG SRC="http://images.ibsys.com/2001/0620/829557_200X150.jpg" BORDER=0]
"It is just rather unimaginable," Cannon said. "It's difficult to deal with when you are talking about five little kids who were killed, probably systematically."
Russell Yates arrived home about the same time police officers did, finding the children dead and still wet.
Cannon said that Yates also was wet when she answered the door.
Yates has been treated for postpartum depression for the past two years. She was so depressed over the weekend that she couldn't accompany her children to a neighborhood party.
Russell Yates told officers his wife was on medication for the condition.
"You can rest assured it will be carried as a capital case," Cannon said.
A conviction on a capital murder charge in Texas could carry a death sentence. Police expect to file charges against Yates Wednesday evening after questioning wraps up.
Police said when they arrived, they kept Russell Yates from entering the home. Cannon described the scene as traumatic but said that police kept the husband from the home to protect the evidence.
"What's scary is that it might have been anyone," neighbor John Fancher said. "My kids could have been staying over there."
Mother Tried To Commit Suicide In Past
Andrea Yates was no stranger to depression.
Yates was hospitalized two years ago after an overdose suicide attempt.
Children's Protective Services was made aware of it, and a child welfare agency was made aware of that but decided there was no need to follow up with Yates, according to a KPRC TV report.
It was two years ago almost to the day that Yates came to the attention of CPS.
"There was no concern here that the children were in any danger or that the mother was threatening to them," Judy Hay of Children's Protective Services told KPRC TV.
After Yates' alleged attempt at suicide, Hay said that doctors were only worried about the kids' whereabouts.
CPS found the kids safe with relatives and no investigation or follow-up was ever done.
"For us to be able to investigate, there has to be some allegation that a child is at risk of being abused or neglected or that a child already has been," Hay said. "That's not what this call was two years ago."
For more information on postpartum depression, click here.
Neighbors Stunned By News
Andrea Yates' neighbors were stunned to learn Wednesday morning that she admitted to police that she had killed her children.
[IMG SRC="http://images.ibsys.com/2001/0620/829551_200X150.jpg" BORDER=0]
Yates didn't accompany her husband and children to a neighborhood party (pictured, right) because as neighbors told KPRC TV, she was battling a severe bout of depression.
"We asked him how come she didn't come," neighbor Pat Salas, who hosted the party and took home video of the Yates children, said. "He said she stayed (at home) because she was going through a (bout) of depression from having babies. That's what he said."
Salas actually thought that Yates had committed suicide after she saw the squad cars surround the home and police tape being put up.
"I didn't even think it was the children," Salas said.
The Yates family looked like any other family around the middle-class neighborhood, according to neighbors.
Neighbors told KPRC TV that they knew Yates was depressed but never realized the severity and had no idea that depression would turn to murder.
"Many of us would have helped her," neighbor Kelly McBeth said. "Any of us would have helped her had we known."
Many neighbors told KPRC that they had no idea anything was wrong.
"They were real nice," another neighbor said. "She took the kids for a walk in the stroller, and you'd see them riding their bikes."
Neighbor Dianne Shultz doesn't know the Yates, but was moved to tears after hearing the news. She especially feels for Russell Yates, who not only lost five children but lost a wife to the law.
"It's got to be tough," Shultz said. "He'll need a lot of help. I can't believe she did it. My prayers for the rest of my life will include him and his whole family."
Memorial Fund Set Up
A memorial fund for the Yates family has been set up. The money donated will help with the funeral costs.
To donate money, send it to:
Yates Memorial Fund
Sterling Bank
P.O. Box 590027
Houston, TX 77259
You can also drop off donations at Clear Lake Flowers at 907 El Dorado or call (281) 286-0068.
Distributed by Internet Broadcasting Systems, Inc. The Associated Press contributed to this report. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
I guess I am wondering what your point is posting the Andrea Yates story, which happened quite a while ago and made world news, and the other one? There are just as many "father kills children" stories out there. What exactly is the social significance of posting these stories with no byline or your personal thoughts?
How many men's shelters for DV are there?
How many DV charges are made by men?
My point is simply that the males in society are considered the killers and women the victims.
My premise:
1. A child needs 2 parents to raise them. A mother and a father. Both are EQUAL in nurturing the children.
2. Both parents should share EQUALLY in monetarily supporting the children.
1. The post represent that mothers can be killers.
2. Here is my question concerning Child Support.
How come a CP is not required to work, or should I say if CP doesn't
work Child Support does a math calculation to adjust monies paid by NCP. (I know many CP who stay at home once remarried)
If NCP doesn't work arrears are accumulated and the NCP can go to jail. (a NCP is not allowed to be a stay at home parent)
The entire burden of monetary raising the child falls on the NCP lap.
If the NCP is not making payments, the CP can go to the government and
get assistants.
According to the law the CP has NO responsibility to financial support
the children.
QUESTION?
Shouldn't BOTH parents EQUALLY share in the parenting and financial
supporting the children? How can the law only hold one parent
responsible for the finances and the other parent responsible for
raising the children?
To split the children like that to me is immoral and just plain bad law.
-----------------------------------------------------
[em]"point is posting the Andrea Yates story"[/em]
Author: Fire Byrd
Date: 12-30-04 11:09
Oh yes, the Yates mother, I remember her well. A friend of mine took that call and it was a sad site to see. ( I am a Houston Fire Fighter) How can a woman claim insanity on such a thing and shed tears for all to belive her. I have not ket up with this story lately although she still makes the news here and there.
Good post. Holidays can bring out the worst in depression and it becomes deadly for so many. Very sad for the loved ones left behind...
And I agree, women can commit violent acts as well as some men. But in most cases, men commit suicide afterward...
"Children learn what they live"
It doesn't make sense to go that way, Bolivar.
How many men's shelters for DV are there?
How many DV charges are made by men?
>> Statistically, it's been shown time and time again that men commit 28% more violent acts then women. That translates basically for every one violent act by women, there are 28 violent acts by men.
>>There are shelters for DV for men. Admittedly not as many, however society is changing BOL. Not only that, but how many women whom go to the shelters are financially supported (controlled) by the men? How many men who are being abused are Stay At Home Dads whom are financially dependable upon the woman of the house? The numbers are not proportionable. If an abused man wants to leave, they are usually working and can afford somewhere to go. A majority of abused women are not working and have no means to finanically support themselves when they leave.
My point is simply that the males in society are considered the killers and women the victims.
>> I don't think that's true. I think most of us know that both women and men can be killers and women can be manipulative and controlling and not victims.
My premise:
1. A child needs 2 parents to raise them. A mother and a father. Both are EQUAL in nurturing the children.
2. Both parents should share EQUALLY in monetarily supporting the children.
>>My premise:
1. A child needs 2 FIT parents to raise them. A FIT mother and a FIT father. Both FIT parents are EQUAL in nuturing the children.
2. Both parents "SHOULD" share equally in monetarily supporting the children, EXCEPT FOR in cases of divorce in which one parent gave up career paths to be a SAH parent for the child(ren). That parent is at a disadvantage fiancially and can not be expected to be as a high an earner as the other post divorce. I propose that after a set amount of time, things are considered equal in ability to earn.
1. The post represent that mothers can be killers.
2. Here is my question concerning Child Support.
How come a CP is not required to work, or should I say if CP doesn't
work Child Support does a math calculation to adjust monies paid by NCP. (I know many CP who stay at home once remarried)
If NCP doesn't work arrears are accumulated and the NCP can go to jail. (a NCP is not allowed to be a stay at home parent)
>> Bolivar, I know many NCP's that do not pay. When they do, they pay a very small amount, just enough for the enforcement proceedings to squeak by. An NCP must be VERY deliquent in supporting their child before they will ever go to jail. Not only that, but I have read many stories when the CP parent chooses to stay home, their income is still imputed.
The entire burden of monetary raising the child falls on the NCP lap.
>> That's really naive. The whole reason there are collection agencies and state enforcement units are for the thousands upon thousands of people who do not pay their child support. Those rotten tomatoes spoiled the whole bunch.
>> Personally, when my DH was the NCP, he paid her $866 a month for 2 children and was never late and volunatrily had a wage garnishment. For a little over 2 1/2 years he has been the CP, firstly, he voluntarily gave her one year CS free, to help her get on her feet. Once the CS wasn't rolling in, she went into major financial despair and actually had 2 cars repo'ed. Since that time, he went to CSE and it took them another year to get a hearing. Because of the way the agreement was worded, she went into arrears for that year she was supposed to be paying. In the last 6 months or so, we've seen her quit two jobs, and only make about 2 months full payments. And her payment is only $360 a month for the same two children.
>> Yes, this is our personal experience but because of this situation my eyes have been opened very WIDE. There are a lot of NCP's who don't pay, Bolivar. Not because they CAN'T, but because they WON't.
>> in our case I will say that your statement that the NCP is the only one who is mandated to pay CS is wrong, wrong, wrong. I think you should say that the parent who is responsible and has the children's best interests at heart is usually the one who takes the financial burden, regardless if they are NCP or CP.
If the NCP is not making payments, the CP can go to the government and
get assistants.
>> And that's wrong? How would you expect a single CP to get a full time job that would cover daycare bills, lawyer bills, and everything else if they are very poor to begin with?
According to the law the CP has NO responsibility to financial support
the children.
>> False again, a majority of states use the shared income model, and not just a straight % of the NCP's salary.
QUESTION?
Shouldn't BOTH parents EQUALLY share in the parenting and financial
supporting the children? How can the law only hold one parent
responsible for the finances and the other parent responsible for
raising the children?
To split the children like that to me is immoral and just plain bad law.
>> The laws fail on both sides of the equation. I really can say I haven't read of any alternative propsed laws that make any better sense or cover all the loopholes. Minus, of course the presumption of shared parenting, unless one parent can be proven to be unfit.
>> Bolivar, I know many NCP's that do not pay.
I do NOT know one.
1. My eX worked 40-45 hours before we met and when we were married.
2. I was married 4 ½ years
3. I get every other weekend with son and tues 3:00 – 600 pm.
4. eX will not allowed one extra second companionship between father and son.
5. As you know I just can't go back into court and say "Father and son need more time together".
5. I paid $24K Spousal Support and $35K Child Support in 2003.
6. eX now works 20 hours a week and send son to day care full time.
7. I go to daycare to spend more time with son. I can NOT take son out of day care because CP (residential parent) says I can't. That's the Law.
8. In my county we are building a data base and so far I can say there has never been a case where there was 2 Fit parents and the father was awarded CP (residential parent).
9. In my county if there is any type of bickering between the parents and mom demands to be CP she will get it. (the judges do NOT like shared parenting)
I use to come home every evening and play with my son. Now I only get every other weekend and I must support two house holds.
In my world I see absolutely NO equality taking place in the family court system. If one becomes designated as a NCP you rarely get to see your children and must pay monies for ones title.
Hell my brother has 50/50 physical and legal custody and pays for all medical, school and extras. He still has to pay the eX around $1,200 a month in Child Support. And his eX to this day has never worked over 20 hours a week.
I found Bols article fitting for the Fathers Issues board. Gender bias was not his intent, he was posting articles many would be interested in.
Not long ago, I posted a father who is being accused of killing his 3 year old daughter. When it is something that concerns us, we post it.
Also, check the statistics on false RO's and OOP's, who initiates those? How many are false?
Here is something I found in the archives. You can also send for a copy of this, address is shown at the bottom....And a toll free number is also listed
DHHS and BJS Studies of Child Abuse and Neglect
Who abuses children? That question is answered with the hard data contained in the Third National Incidence Study of Child Abuse and Neglect (NIS-3) from the US Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) and also from data in a report from the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) entitled "Child Victimizers and Their Victims". The DHHS and BJS reports reveal some startling conclusions about who really commits child abuse.
The DHHS report contains clear and undeniable evidence that the majority of child abuse is committed by mothers, not fathers. This runs counter to the standard mainstream-media depiction of child abusers as being almost exclusively male.
You can get a free copy of the report by calling 1-800-394-3366. Examine the data and you will come to the same conclusion the Department of Health and Human Services did- that mothers commit the majority of child abuse, not fathers.
The report includes the following items:
Table 5-3 shows that children in mother-only households are almost 4 times more likely to be fatally abused [read: murdered] than children in father-only households.
Table 5-4 shows that children in mother-only households are 40% more likely to be sexually abused than children in father-only households.
Table 6-4 shows that females are 78% of the perpetrators of fatal child abuse [read: child murder], 81% of natural parents who seriously abuse their children, 72% of natural parents who moderately abuse their children, and 65% of natural parents who are inferred to have abused their children.
Table 6-3 shows that natural mothers are the perpetrators of 93% of physical neglect, 86% of educational neglect, 78% of emotional neglect, 60% of physical abuse, and 55% of emotional abuse.
Table 6-3 also shows when the perpetrator is a non-natural parent, that males [read: non-biological fathers] are the perpetrators of 90% of physical abuse, 97% of sexual abuse, 74% of emotional abuse, and 82% of educational neglect.
Table 5-2 shows that children are 20 times more likely to be fatally abused, 22 times more likely to be seriously abused, 20 times more likely to be moderately abused, and 18 times more likely to be sexually abused in households earning less than $15,000 per year [read: father-absent households] than in households earning more than $30,000 per year [read: father-present households].
Table 4-2 shows that boys are four times more likely to be fatally abused and 24% more likely to be seriously abused than girls .
Table 3-4 shows that between 1986 and 1993, as the number of single-mother households increased dramatically, fatal child abuse increased 46% and serious child abuse increased four fold.
The disclaimer on page 6-21 is typical government-sponsored feminist double-speak:
"Consistent with the fact that mothers and mother-substitutes tend to be the primary caretakers, 87 percent of all neglected children and 93 percent of physically neglected children suffered their neglect at the hands of female perpetrators." (Emphasis added)
The report "Child Victimizers and Their Victims" from the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) also details child abuse by women. The study uses data from the 1991 BJS Survey of State Prison Inmates and the FBI's 1992 Supplementary Homicide Report, which includes data on child murder victims (nearly 3,000 in 1992) and offenders who murdered children.
The report states that more than twice as many children are murdered as were reported by the NIS-3, in which Table 6-4 shows that 1,500 children were fatally abused in 1993--1,200 by natural parents, and 78% by females. Since the data for the percent of non-natural parents [read: step-fathers and live-in boyfriends] who fatally abused their children is missing, the assumption is made that the percent of perpetrators of fatal abuse by non-natural fathers is an average of Table 6-3 (90%, 97%, 74%, 82%, or 86%).
28 million children are now growing up in fatherless households, where the rate of fatal child abuse is 0.017 per 1,000 children, so 476 children were fatally abused in mother-only households in 1993. 2.8 million children are now growing up in father-only households where the rate of fatal abuse is .005 per 1,000 children, so 14 children were fatally abused in father-only households in 1993.
Total Children Killed in 1993 1,500
Killed By Natural Parents 1,200
Killed By Non-natural Parents 300
Killed By Females 1,170
Killed By Males* 330
Killed In Mother-only Households 476
Killed In Father-only Households 14
*Of the children killed by males:
14% By Natural Fathers: 37
86% By Non-natural Fathers: 227
20% By 'others': 66
According to the government's own figures, females kill 31 times as many children as natural fathers.
The conclusion is unavoidable: Females, NOT males, commit the vast majority of child abuse, regardless of how the media ignores the figures.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copies of the Third National Incidence Study of Child Abuse and Neglect (NIS-3) can be obtained by calling National Clearinghouse on Child Abuse and Neglect Information at 1-800-394-3366.
Copies of the Estimates from the Redesigned Survey, written by Ronet Bachman, Ph.D., a BJS statistician, and Linda E. Saltzman, Ph.D., a senior scientist at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, may be obtained by calling or writing the BJS Clearinghouse, Box 179, Annapolis Junction, Maryland 20701-1079. The telephone number is 1-800-732-3277.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page Location: http://www.deltabravo.net/custody/abusers.htm Ad-Free Login
"Children learn what they live"
According to the government's own figures, females kill 31 times as many children as natural fathers.
The conclusion is unavoidable: Females, NOT males, commit the vast majority of child abuse, regardless of how the media ignores the figures.
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I never said that women don't kill more children. I said that overall, men commit 28% more VIOLENT crimes than women. Are there a lot of female serial killers?
You do make an interesting point with the above article though. Like most hardcore Father's Rights members, you are insinuating that men are BETTER parents than women by posting articles like the one above. Yet, you scream for equality, but really hardcore FRG's think they are BETTER parents than mothers when quoting articles such as this.
And about killing children. Like Andrea Yates, there is a certain mental disorder that comes along for a small minority of women during pregnancy. It's called Post Partum Psychosis. SANE people don't kill their children.
And one other slant that even your article says is femno babble but it's too ironic. Near the end of the article it says "28 million children are now growing up in fatherless households, where the rate of fatal child abuse is 0.017 per 1,000 children, ..." but yet, women have the higher percentage rate of abusing their children? Do you not see the irony in that? There are MORE female single parent families than single male parent families, so if it was switched around, do you think that men would have a higher rate of abuse towards children than women?
Please stop it with "this is the father's board" line!! Of course I know it is. I don't understand why someone would just post a couple articles with no commentary or anything, that's all.
I found the article quite interesting and am glad that it was posted here for all to read! This article was posted for all to read. If you dont want to read it you dont have to! Do you? Why make a big deal out of something that you think is not important??
I dont believe that anyone here is saying that men are better parents than women. They are trying to make a point that women CAN be violent and do commit crimes! Women do harm children and ect.
The courts have a bias against giving men the same rights they give women.
This is not only going on in family courts it is ALL courts! I have seen it even in criminal courts.....men and women can do the same crime but the woman gets a slap on the hand and the man goes to prison for a very long time. Why?? Because our courts are Bias and favor women!
> Like most hardcore Father's Rights members, you are insinuating that men are BETTER parents than women by posting articles like the one above. Yet, you scream for equality, but really hardcore FRG's think they are BETTER parents than mothers when quoting articles such as this.<
Hey, I just posted the facts, I did not write them...
>but yet, women have the higher percentage rate of abusing their children? Do you not see the irony in that? There are MORE female single parent families than single male parent families, so if it was switched around, do you think that men would have a higher rate of abuse towards children than women?<
More abuse could be curtailed if fathers were more involved with their childrens lives. 50/50 is what I beleive in.
>Please stop it with "this is the father's board" line!! Of course I know it is. I don't understand why someone would just post a couple articles with no commentary or anything, that's all.<
Again another fact. I post articles of interest for ALL here, many times without comment. Keeping informed and educated with the best interest of the child in mind. It is the children that should remain at the forefront. Education is crutial. The whole point of this forum is to help and inform.
Maybe it would be better if we all stopped posting....
"Children learn what they live"
"Children learn what they live"
Hey, I just posted the facts, I did not write them...
-------------------------------------------------------------------
And you are smart enough to know that you can take any "facts" to make them suit your agenda. Not you, in particular, but you in general.
Yes, I know facts can be changed. Many reports can conflict. These facts came from reputable sources. They offer an address and phone number so that people can come to their own conclusions.
Send for your free copy and judge for yourself.
My only AGENDA is what is best for children. PERIOD....
"Children learn what they live"
Geeze, was I? Or was I stimulating conversation and asking Bolivar why he posted two articles, one of them very old, about women killing kids? Maybe I found the articles interesting too, like you, but I was wondering why they were out there in left field, with no commentary or thoughts.
I agree that the courts have a bias giving men equal custody rights, but overall in ALL courts of the land, I disagree with you.
And, stepmom, really. Hardcore FRG's do say that men are better parents than women, you just have to listen to them rant and rave for a while. Like Eric of FIRM. I have seen relatively normal male posters head down the whole gender inequality route and get obessed with it. Stepmom, maybe you haven't seen the other side of the coin and how the laws also aren't perfect for women. You need to realize like I said earlier, the system fails both sides right now.
>Hardcore FRG's do say that men are better parents than women, you just have to listen to them rant and rave for a while. Like Eric of FIRM. I have seen relatively normal male posters head down the whole gender inequality route and get obessed with it.<
I am sure your comparing us to ERIC will go a long way...
You are not stimulating conversation, you are starting trouble over a simple post.
"Children learn what they live"
Because I agree to most everything that was said except for a few logisitcal statements, like the reason why there aren't as many DV shelters for men as for women, and such?
Sorry you think I'm starting trouble. God forbid I have an opinion!
..
~
I did not see where you agree, you went on the defense.
And as far as DV shelters, another bias men face.
You seem to have many opinions...
Bol posted the articles, he did not write them.
I personally, will continue to post anything I feel is relevant. And will continue to work toward equality for all parents...
"Children learn what they live"
I have seen both side to the coin. I am a step mother to a wonderful little boy whom is living presently with his BM and she continues without reason to deny SS of having a loving and meaningful relationship with his father, brother, sister, 2 stepsisiter, and myself! But so far the courts have only continued to let BM do this with no punishment. Therefor the courts have enabled this behavior to continue. Bm is currently living with SS in a home that has no heat and water. SS is around drugs and DV. SS has no regular place to sleep because of the no heat issue he bounces from here to there to lay his head. SS missed 37 days of school last year and 8 so far this year. He has no medical issues.
I am also a CP of 2 children of which I could not protect when their father was using drugs with them present but yet was told by a judge that if I was to deny visitation I would go to jail for it. He was allowed by the system to use drugs and to also commit DV infront of his children.
As for who is making a deal go back and count how many times I have posted in this thread and then go back and count how many times you have posted. I would say that by far you ARE the one making an issue out of an interesting post. (and I am sure that others would agree)
I agreed with Bolivar that men and women should have equal custody rights. I believe in the presumption of joint custody barring that both parents are fit. I agreed that women kill their own children more then men. I agreed that it's not right that an NCP should be the only one who financially supports the children.
However, I put my own thoughts into why these things are the way they are. Is that wrong? Have you MSD, lived on both sides of the equation, a CP and NCP? My theory has long been that if one is a crappy CP, they will be a crappy NCP and it's proven 100% true in our own case. I don't think it's a gender problem, it's a "once an ahole always an ahole" thing. My husband and I have FELT your pain of not seeing the kids and having a controlling bitch in your life.
What is with this statement, MSD:
"You seem to have many opinions..."
And you don't?
And you're not trying to cause "trouble"?
Care to explain?
I shouldn't answer people back when they ask me questions?
As another poster has already said.......you are only here to cause trouble.
This was an informational post and there are people who post things like this all the time here.
If you dont like what is posted here maybe you should find another site to go hang out at cause we are all here to learn and try and change things with the current system!! EQUAL RIGHTS for mothers and fathers alike!!!!!!
You have many opinions regarding a simple article. And yes, I have many opinions, but don't go on the defense so quickly. Usually sit back and wait to see what developes.
Showing facts is trying to avoid more conflict...Bottom line, men face many obsticles and bias in most areas of the courts.
And what about you, CP? NCP? I am NCP, would love to see the other side of things. Many fathers would relish that, but will never have a chance to prove that they could be the better parent. I know I am the better parent, basing this on facts.
Bias has never been my issue on these boards. MANY stepmoms, grandmothers, aunts, sisters and NCP moms that are all here fighting for the same cause. They see what fathers deal with.
If things upset you on what is posted, go on to another forum...
"Children learn what they live"
Such resistance. Lady, look at my post count - well over 1800. You have 215. I am not a newbie here. Don't tell me to "go away" - I don't see what I said that was so offensive to begin with.
Stop the handholding and back patting!
because you are holding onto to past incidents.
Look, I'm not stepping into anything. I "picked apart" Bol's post to me, not the articles.
I had a few extra minutes at the end of my day and posted back to people.... and got crucified for it, apparently.
Stepmom has been a valued, respected member of these boards for quite some time. It does not matter how long you have been here and how many posts you've made. It is the information and knowledge you share, the willingness to help others that make you an important asset.
If you can not see how you offend, then I feel sorry for you...
"Children learn what they live"
"Children learn what they live"
>>>My premise:
>1. A child needs 2 FIT parents to raise them. A FIT mother
>and a FIT father. Both FIT parents are EQUAL in nuturing the
>children.
>2. Both parents "SHOULD" share equally in monetarily
>supporting the children, EXCEPT FOR in cases of divorce in
>which one parent gave up career paths to be a SAH parent for
>the child(ren). That parent is at a disadvantage fiancially
>and can not be expected to be as a high an earner as the other
>post divorce. I propose that after a set amount of time,
>things are considered equal in ability to earn.
1. Both parents were deemed fit in Will's case, yet court allowed children to be moved 3000 miles away and only see him 10 weeks per year.
2. Will paid for her college education so she could fulfill her dream of being a teacher. Quit her job because she was "tired" of working. She has very good earnings potential, but no order from the court to resume her career so that she may share financial resposibilities equally.
>>> Bolivar, I know many NCP's that do not pay. When they do,
>they pay a very small amount, just enough for the enforcement
>proceedings to squeak by. An NCP must be VERY deliquent in
>supporting their child before they will ever go to jail. Not
>only that, but I have read many stories when the CP parent
>chooses to stay home, their income is still imputed.
>>> Personally, when my DH was the NCP, he paid her $866 a
>month for 2 children and was never late and volunatrily had a
>wage garnishment. For a little over 2 1/2 years he has been
>the CP, firstly, he voluntarily gave her one year CS free, to
>help her get on her feet. Once the CS wasn't rolling in, she
>went into major financial despair and actually had 2 cars
>repo'ed. Since that time, he went to CSE and it took them
>another year to get a hearing. Because of the way the
>agreement was worded, she went into arrears for that year she
>was supposed to be paying. In the last 6 months or so, we've
>seen her quit two jobs, and only make about 2 months full
>payments. And her payment is only $360 a month for the same
>two children.
Hmm...Will pays over $1600.00/mo. for 3 kids, overpaid a few times and didn't get it back, never refused to pay, never paid late yet had his wages garnished without warning. Also pays $400.00/mo. to maintain health insurance for the children, she pays nothing.
>
>>> in our case I will say that your statement that the NCP is
>the only one who is mandated to pay CS is wrong, wrong, wrong.
> I think you should say that the parent who is responsible and
>has the children's best interests at heart is usually the one
>who takes the financial burden, regardless if they are NCP or
>CP.
and is usually the one who loses the children to PB ex and a corrupt court system.
>
>If the NCP is not making payments, the CP can go to the
>government and
>get assistants.
>>> And that's wrong? How would you expect a single CP to get
>a full time job that would cover daycare bills, lawyer bills,
>and everything else if they are very poor to begin with?
How do you expect a NCP to live on only %50 of his take home pay?
>>> False again, a majority of states use the shared income
>model, and not just a straight % of the NCP's salary.
Yes, but the judge can choose not to.
>>> The laws fail on both sides of the equation. I really can
>say I haven't read of any alternative propsed laws that make
>any better sense or cover all the loopholes. Minus, of course
>the presumption of shared parenting, unless one parent can be
>proven to be unfit.
Once again, neither parent in our case was proven unfit, 10 weeks out of 52 is NOT shared parenting.
I could care less how many posts you have.........It is the information one provides and how they provide it that really matters!! I came here seeking help for myself and my DH and there are many here that have GOOD advise ........you are not one of them people. I have also offered advise to those who have needed it as well.
Throughout this whole thread you were being critical of Brent and of MSD! Some of us do like to keep up on what is going on in the world, no matter what the information is about. If you dont like reading the informational posts then dont read them and you sure as hell dont have to post your sarcastic remarks either. As I said before some of us enjoy reading the post!!
Come to think of it I havent seen you here hardly at all since I came here! What do you do come around and stir trouble, leave and then pop back in and cause troube again??
I am a consistant member on this board. Here almost everyday and don't plan on leaving!!
This poster seems to me that they are here only to cause DRAMA! I have enough DRAMA coming from PBFH here so they can take their DRAMA to another forum as far as I am concerned!
I am here to help others as well as to ask questions and educate myself and DH.
PS I hope that you and Brent keep posting the informational stories that you post because I am one member that likes to read them! (I am sure that there are many others too)
Again thanks!!
I was just thinking about this earlier today.
First... This woman who kiled the pregnant woman and took the baby, What do you think her defense will be?
She suffered a miscarriage was overwrougth with grief and not responsible for her actions. And will be sent to a mental health hospital until the state deems her "CURED". A man using this defense? I wanted this child soo badly then my wife suffered a misscarriage, I was sooo distraught... Death sentence!!!
And now my and DH's situation, If DH keeps the kids past his "designated " time he goes to jail, but if the ex denies his time she too gets a slap on the wrist.
Yates is mentally ill. Who knows what was in the other woman's head. Hopefully it will be an electrode and a supersized bath in Dixie Fry....
My 2 middle children, who are now 17 and 22, decided that they were better off in a shelter. I called (this was back in 2000), and after they found out that I didn't have a car, and worked through a temp agency, their advice was to "hide the knives". They didn't have room for me and 3 kids. What does having a car have to do with the fact that you're living under horrible conditions and need help???
The next time that smarmy commercial telling us to seek help came on tv, my kids damn near kicked the tv to death.
Imo, it's all bullshit....
I just wanted to comment on the shelters I have seen.
The one DV shelter that I have been in was filthy and there was roaches everywhere. I swear if CPS would have walked in that place everyone there would have had all their children taken away and been even worse off than before they went to the shelter........more than likely back in the hand of the abuser or at the mercy of CPS.
I have been in both situations. (abuse and CPS) I am sorry but I would rather be at the hands of an abuser than at the mercy of CPS!
Also on a side note this shelter is actually for women and children but I seen 2 men that were abused and they did allow the men to stay in the shelter as well with their children!!
I was just thinking about this earlier today.
First... This woman who kiled the pregnant woman and took the baby, What do you think her defense will be?
She suffered a miscarriage was overwrougth with grief and not responsible for her actions. And will be sent to a mental health hospital until the state deems her "CURED". A man using this defense? I wanted this child soo badly then my wife suffered a misscarriage, I was sooo distraught... Death sentence!!!
And now my and DH's situation, If DH keeps the kids past his "designated " time he goes to jail, but if the ex denies his time she too gets a slap on the wrist.
Yates is mentally ill. Who knows what was in the other woman's head. Hopefully it will be an electrode and a supersized bath in Dixie Fry....
My 2 middle children, who are now 17 and 22, decided that they were better off in a shelter. I called (this was back in 2000), and after they found out that I didn't have a car, and worked through a temp agency, their advice was to "hide the knives". They didn't have room for me and 3 kids. What does having a car have to do with the fact that you're living under horrible conditions and need help???
The next time that smarmy commercial telling us to seek help came on tv, my kids damn near kicked the tv to death.
Imo, it's all bullshit....
I just wanted to comment on the shelters I have seen.
The one DV shelter that I have been in was filthy and there was roaches everywhere. I swear if CPS would have walked in that place everyone there would have had all their children taken away and been even worse off than before they went to the shelter........more than likely back in the hand of the abuser or at the mercy of CPS.
I have been in both situations. (abuse and CPS) I am sorry but I would rather be at the hands of an abuser than at the mercy of CPS!
Also on a side note this shelter is actually for women and children but I seen 2 men that were abused and they did allow the men to stay in the shelter as well with their children!!
Based on the article, I'm not sure how you can determine who was and wasn't mentally ill.
Frankly, I think anyone who could just kill their children like that has to be mentally ill.
I also think that if you are THAT mentally ill, there is no recovery and you deserve to die.
I just posted something like this in the general board!
It makes me sick that CP can deny visits but NCP have to pay support and return the children on time or they go to jail!!
SICK! And UNJUST SYSTEM!!
I agree!! If you can kill your child, why should you be allowed to live??
Since my ex now has an enabler, I've had 2 visits from CPS. The first one was horrible, but on the second one, I quoted my constitutional rights to her...what's left of them anyway :/
I know from experience that when you need help, it isn't there.
Regarding Andrea Yates, the last I heard was that she finally became aware of what she did. She is trying to kill herself.
Of course I'm sure that no one on this site derives pleasure from this.
>> Statistically, it's been shown time and time again that men commit 28% more violent acts then women. That translates basically for every one violent act by women, there are 28 violent acts by men.
Gee, Catherine, where did you learn math????
Go there and demand your money back!
Just for your education: 28% more means that for every 100 violent acts by women there are 128 by men.
And please, do not mistake violent acts with domestic violence. As all
independent research shows, DV is committed by women as much as by men. And that is when men are willing to admit that they are a victim. The real numbers we will never know.
Kent!
While killing your own children is a crime that most of us find horrific, I dare say that killing the mentally ill appeals to everyone...
Mental illness is an illness. Just like being diabetic, having cancer, or AIDS. It's just one that affects the mind, and frankly if you fried everyone that commited a crime and WAS mentally ill, how would ever set a standard for research to learn the causes and potentially the cure.
Sorry, the scientist coming out in me here....
and I agree that mental illness is that - an illness. I have dealt with it lots in my family.
But sometimes, something is so broken you just need to throw it out. Harsh, but it is the way I feel.
:-) Hey everyone has an opinion! Great to be living where we can voice those...
>While killing your own children is a crime that most of us
>find horrific, I dare say that killing the mentally ill
>appeals to everyone...
After some of the bodies I've seen come thru my ER...you damn right I'd derive pleasure from killing the sick twisted "mentally ill" murderers.
>
>Mental illness is an illness. Just like being diabetic,
>having cancer, or AIDS. It's just one that affects the mind,
>and frankly if you fried everyone that commited a crime and
>WAS mentally ill, how would ever set a standard for research
>to learn the causes and potentially the cure.
People with diabetes, cancer, AIDS ect ect do NOT kill their children as a result of their illness. Using mental illness as an excuse is just that,,,,an excuse.
>
>Sorry, the scientist coming out in me here....
And what hypothesis are you testing??
I really only have ONE problem in response to the DV shelters for men. How many of those shelters ALLOW the man to have the children with him NONE that I know of, BUT how many womans DV shelters let them have the kids with them MOST OF EM.
**These are my opinions, they are not legal advice**
There are a few DV shelters in my city and surrounding that do have a place for men and their children. But heres the catch 22........the shelters are "womens" shelters and DO NOT advertise that they accept men. And they are nasty filthy dirty and roach infested!
**And they are nasty filthy dirty and roach infested!**
This comment bothers me. I am highly active in DV shelter arena, for both men & women. It is equally deserved. You seem to be under the impression that there are shelters out there that are NOT dirty & bug infested. Name one. As if there is some "private club" for women of DV to go that men aren't allowed in where they sleep on Serta matresses and get 3 square meals plus a snack a day. Where they can live indefinately with 100% protection without any cost to them. These places don't exist....for either sex.
In some cities, pets that are victims of cruelty get better living accomodations AND free medical care.
Shelters run on donations mainly. They are in the basements of churches or other such low income buildings. They are in the seediest parts of town because even the middle class shun the idea of a shelter being near them. "not in our town!" mentality.
You are lucky ANY shelter for ANYONE male or female gets "advertising". That costs money you know. I find it rather offensive that you shun a shelter purely for its lack of advertising. Are you aware that most of the time these ads you see are donated, and written, by the one who donated it?
You are also clueless to the number of people that get turned away daily, sent to homeless shelters or low income motels instead of being able to have access to the few counselors and occasional pro bono legal reps that show up to volunteer that set DV shelters apart from "homeless" ones.
Sometimes it isn't a matter of "not" accepting men, it's a matter of room or funding. Did you bother to ask? If a DV shelter consists of one huge room with cots & blankets & a single bathroom, do you really think it is wise to combine both men and women there?
Before you start trashing the DV help system, I suggest you get involved and see the reality of it. There aren't many "exclusive" men's DV shelters because there aren't people donating to get them. You can't blame women for that.
This all coming from a man...
OK now you have to read all the posts that I have posted about DV shelters.
I was speaking about one shelter that I have seen! NOT ALL OF THEM! I was not trashing all DV shelters at all! I have stayed in a DV shelter. It is what I needed at that moment.
Haven't you seen the comercials or the posters around that have the woman all beat up with black eyes?? Then they ask if you are this woman or you know this woman and it tells you to call the number. That is the advertisment that I was speaking of. Not that its not a good idea but why isnt there ever a man on those poster or on those comercials?
That is all I was saying. Sorry that you took what I said so defensivly Bigsigh.
Check below the post for one named to "MYSONSDAD et all...."
Posted Dec 21, 2004.
Now, I was addressed about shelters. For some unknown reason, this was posted to me. Now, I went and checked out the information that was posted to me and found very few States that even have shelters for men. I beleive I found 22. Most of those had only one shelter per State.
Now what does that say? There are no shelters to speak of, for men.
I also reseached the one bigsigh sent my way. One shelter, not open as of yet. But they have a hotline. My big problem with all of this is the donations that go to so many shelters are thru the communities and work places. Some have stores set up and all profits go to the shelter they sponsor. Every year they reach out for help. What about the help for men? How many men stand to lose everything they have worked for and with paying CS, can not support themselves. They either have to move in with someone, take in a roommate, or live in the car.
And you are correct, Stepmom, they are targeted toward helping women. Only women can be abused.
There are more shelters for gays and lesbians then there are for men.
Oh, I know the onslaught coming for this post, but if some would check, they would see there is very little out there...
Yes they have a hotline, that will help you find SOMEWHERE to go in any of the states. I hate to tell you this guys, but even abused women have to do leg work to get help from a DV shelter, some pretty much demand a police report & promise to prosecute to even be allowed in the door.
**Now what does that say? There are no shelters to speak of, for men.**
Who are you blaming for that, exactly? Why would abused women give money once they are back on their feet to an abused MEN'S shelter? Do you not comprehend that most of the funding for these places, or legwork when it comes to GETTING funding comes from those who are giving back for the help they, or a loved one, received?
A HUGE problem in the funding aspect of men's shelters, is the refusal of men who are abused to admit it publicly. My brother being one of them. For every one man who stands up and says he's abused by a woman there are 15 or more who refuse to on the basis of male pride. That's a lot of word of mouth & activism going by the wayside.
**My big problem with all of this is the donations that go to so many shelters are thru the communities and work places. Some have stores set up and all profits go to the shelter they sponsor. Every year they reach out for help. What about the help for men?**
Why aren't you out there soliciting the corporate offices of the stores in your area on the behalf of a men's shelter instead of just complaining about it? Or the company you work for? Or are you expecting someone else to do it.
I put 7% of my company's yearly profits into helping those 22+ men's shelters across the United States...what do you contribute?
Not too long ago, you posted about shelters. I did the research and found squat.
Since then, I have taken the time to investigate. Only 10% of these women are actually abused, scared for their lives. Many times they use the shelters to give them an upper hand in the Family Court system, very much like false RO's and OOP's are used. For the 10%, my heart goes out to them.
Now, on the other hand. 10% of fathers abuse the system. They do not pay support or they have little contact with their kids. By their choice. And they brand the rest of us as "Dead Beat Dads"
So, where is the fairness of any of this?
Just another thought I had...
"Children learn what they live"
I do not agree. A woman I worked with about 5 years ago, was going thru a bad divorce. It took one call to a shelter, they met her after work at the front door and escorted her to her car and then she followed them to the shelter. Curb service? No Police report, no nothing. Not a mark on her. They took her at her word, that's it.
Right now I have enough on my plate. I contribute where it will do the most good for the Fathers movements.
Most of the shelters in my area get funding thru work place donations or non profit thrift shops. United Way is one of the bigger contributors. Call them and ask how much they donate for the shelters. Ask them what they have for men.
I used to contribute every year, until I walked into the bias.
"Children learn what they live"
MSD
Exacty how did you "investigate" it and come up with 10% are "actually" abused?
Did you pour through every single person's file who has ever gone to a DV shelter looked up their case and then tallyed the numbers based on outcome? Or did you strictly use the web and find a few articles that said what you wanted them to?
**Many times they use the shelters to give them an upper hand in the Family Court system**
Incredibly broad assumption based on the opinions you have heard from others, bitter from a fight I'm sure, and not from what your own reseach into the reality of DV has proven.
**Now, on the other hand. 10% of fathers abuse the system. They do not pay support or they have little contact with their kids. By their choice. And they brand the rest of us as "Dead Beat Dads" **
All you are doing is pulling a percentage number out of the air to link the two and I refuse to participate in that. Family Court/Deadbeat parents etc have nothing to do with the state of the DV system.
If your cause is a fight against the fairness of the CS system or Family Law so be it, more power to you, but don't drag or put down the other noble causes people other than you are fighting for in the process by linking them in such a haphazard manner.
I doubt you put 10% of the effort into looking at the reality of the DV system as you have family law & CS.
I have my ways...
Think what you want.
And I am glad to see someone so willing to work with DV shelters...
I personally can't afford the time at the moment.
"Children learn what they live"
I happen to know all about united way and it's charity towards shelters.
It isn't about BIAS, it's about reported NEED.
Due to the fact that generally men do not stand up and claim their abuse the statistics that large companies see in order to make a decison on where the money goes is largely swayed.
That isn't United Way's fault, or any other large company who contributes money for that matter.
**Right now I have enough on my plate. I contribute where it will do the most good for the Fathers movements.**
And you wonder why there aren't more men's shelters with an attitude like that?
DV shelters got their start in the first place by both men and women who were abused, or loved ones of abuse victims, who decided to do something about it for others. It wasn't the brainchild of some big corporation. It was a grassroots effort.
Just like you make the choice to place your time reseach and money into the cause you feel is the most bang for your buck, so do these companies.
It's up to the abused to change that, or those that are standing up in their place. Don't complain about "fairness" if you ain't gonna stand up.
I am out there everyday seeing first hand, "up close and personal", what society has become. Watching innocent men thrown in jail for nothing. All on the word of a so-called abused woman. There is no proof, no hospital reports, nothing.
Until you are out there facing it, day by day, one on one, Do not judge me...
As far as public service, I have made it my lifes work.
You are correct about one thing, men should come forward when they are on the other end of abuse. Not only physical, but mental is a much larger issue.
And I do contribute, but in my own way. Standing up for fairness? EVERYDAY!
"Children learn what they live"
**Until you are out there facing it, day by day, one on one, Do not judge me..**
my mother was murdered by my father and my brother almost lost his life to an ex wife...I think I live it a little closer than you do.
what I'm "judging" you on is your assumption there is some sort of "system" or "conspiracy" that favors women over men in DV by choice or on purpose to supress men.
If men were AS vocal about the abuse they suffered, AS active in getting funding, AS active in prosecuting since the early 70's when DV began getting a public eye there would be a lot more shelters for us - and funding - and justice.
We, as men of this day and age, have only our elder male relatives to blame for the state of the DV system as it related to men's help.
You mentioned in an earlier post that you see large corporations giving money to women's shelters and not men and you think it is unfair - how many of those companies are headed by males? Pretty much all of em. Including United Way.
We have been and are continuing to shoot ourselves in our own feet.
I am sorry for your loss. I am sure this is what has motivated you in your efforts to make a difference.
And you are putting words in my mouth. I am saying that there are shelters, they are just not equiped to help men.
>what I'm "judging" you on is your assumption there is some sort of "system" or "conspiracy" that favors women over men in DV by choice or on purpose to supress men.<
Some women use the system. You can not deny that. False RO's and OOP's. Then they turn around and use the system to their advantage.
The system is broken. Whether you contribute financially, volunteer time, or choose a career to help mend. We all have our way of doing what we can to make a difference. Many NCP's fight everyday just to see their kids, be a part of their lives. And the system is designed to work against them.
I could sit here all day telling you what I have experienced, but what good would that do? And it is not my place.
Have you ever looked at the statistics for fathers who commit suicide? Now, that is an eyeopener.
Instead of arguing on what is wrong, every person can help make a difference. Work together for the common good. So much needs to be done. Volunteer a few hours a week.
"Children learn what they live"