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Main Forums => Father's Issues => Topic started by: TPK on Aug 08, 2005, 12:02:20 PM

Title: Returning Child's Clothes After Visitation
Post by: TPK on Aug 08, 2005, 12:02:20 PM
I'm sure many other members have gone thru this as well.

When I return my daughter after the EOW visits, I always dress her up real nice. Now, mind you that I have a TON of clothes for my daughter. I inherited my niece's wardrobe which consists of designer clothing like Donna Karan, Ralph Lauren to name a few. So, it's all been given to me for free. My sister-in-law insists on buying only the best for niece (and nephew)

Seems that the last few times I returned child in MY clothes, wife doesn't give back the outfit next time I get daughter. It might seem petty but I'm paying CS and I believe that money should go to buying clothes. I feel like I'm the Salvation Army or something.


To combat this problem, I have started returning daughter in the clothes that wife sent her in. I wash them so she's not going back in any dirty laundry. I started doing this today and wife noticed it. I kindly asked for a few outfits back and she says "oh, I forgot"

Am I being petty or did I handle this correctly??


Cheers


TPK

Title: RE: Returning Child's Clothes After Visitation
Post by: jilly on Aug 08, 2005, 12:16:56 PM
We do the exact same thing as you did.

DH's ex doesn't send an overnight bag with SD so we have to buy clothes for her to wear when she's at our house.  This includes shoes, coats, underwear, socks....you name it.  When SD puts her pjs on on Friday night I pick up the clothes she took off and throw them in the washer so she can wear them when we take her back.

If SD does wear home something from our house to her Mom's house we ALWAYS let her know that we need the clothes back.  And I'm not too shy about asking for them again if I have to! LOL

Not that SD is there that much (EOW and alternate holidays).  We don't have alot of outfits for her so if she's there for an extended period of time we're "recycling" outfits.  Plus, I'm the one buying the clothes and I want 'em back just for the princial of the matter.  I've even been known to hold an outfit from her Mom's house "hostage" until I get the stuff from our house back.  LOL  Petty...I know...but that's how it goes sometimes.

Plus, since what we have never really gets worn out, they make great hand-me-downs for our 3 year old daughter.  Starting next year I'll never have to buy DD another piece of clothing for the rest of her life.  Not that I'll let that stop me, but I could do it if I wanted to!  LOL
Title: RE: Returning Child's Clothes After Visitation
Post by: joni on Aug 08, 2005, 12:49:46 PM

absof&*kinlutely

this is validation that your assistance in clothing your child is not appreciated, rather, taken advantage of.

I would hold onto those beautiful clothes your sister gives you.  You'll then have nice stuff when you need it.

We buy several nice outfits because BM tends to send child with sweats and jeans.  Nothing nice enough for parties or a decent dinner out.  When SD outgrows them, I give the clothes to my cousin's kids.
Title: RE: Returning Child's Clothes After Visitation
Post by: TPK on Aug 08, 2005, 12:55:02 PM
  I've even been known to hold an
>outfit from her Mom's house "hostage" until I get the stuff
>from our house back.  LOL  Petty...I know...but that's how it
>goes sometimes.


Ya know, I considered this approach myself. But...it seems wife doesn't send daughter in her "Sunday Best" so to speak.  I send her back in Donna Karan, and she gives daughter to me in "Kmart" clothes...LOL.



I have so many clothes for daughter that we change daughter's outfits up to 6 times a day! We know she'll never be able to wear it all, and will grow out of clothes very fast. It's almost like a fashion show at times!! LOL

Wife mentioned not long ago that she wanted our daughter's baby blanket which I have. I asked her "how does it feel to want??"....and then told her to "go pound some sand"


TPK
Title: DH and I do the same....
Post by: smtotwo on Aug 08, 2005, 01:45:43 PM
ex sends them- ss 9 & 11 - in old torn ratty clothes, even in winter she sent them in tennies with holes and windbreakers.

THey go home on sunday in whatever they wore here friday.

They have EVERYTHING they need here from shoes to hats and everything in between.
Title: RE: DH and I do the same....
Post by: penny on Aug 08, 2005, 02:35:01 PM
We do the same thing now. The ex calls me the wicked step mother.  I was the one purchasing all the childs personal belongings. My husband couldn't because he was paying all his money in CS. Everytime he gets to visit, he would have a bag full of yard sale with the 25 cent tag still on the clothes. I have nothing against yard sale clothes, but at least wash them first. All this kid is to her is a paycheck, she has never worked for the 12 years I have known her. Two summers ago, I had purchased 17 shirts, 14 pairs of shorts ( he lives in Florida) socks, underwear, Nike shoes, backpack, and all his shool supplies. When he returned home after 3 months with us, I got a nasty phone call bitching about all the clothes. Since then I do not purchase anything for this child, he goes home with exactly what he came with.
Title: Who's clothes are they?
Post by: BigFamily on Aug 08, 2005, 05:06:00 PM
I used to make sure that my step-son went back in the clothes that his mother sent him in. We "lost" a LOT of clothing that we had purchased for my step-son to his mother's house.  We even made sure that my step-son "remembered" to bring back anything that he had worn over to his mother's house. Talk about putting my step-son in the middle of something petty and selfish. But then my husband and I started asking each other, "Who are we buying the clothes for? Us or him?"
They are your daughter's clothes. You got them for her. If she doesn't have "nice" clothing at her mother's house, or her mother sends her over to your home in ratty-tatty stuff, then who should be the one that provides nice clothing for her?
You are her parent. You are SUPPOSED to provide clothing, shoes, school supplies, a roof over her head, food in her belly, etc. If her mother doesn't, then YOU are supposed to step up and help YOUR DAUGHTER in that area. Who do you think she's going to remember did that for her? She's going to remember that YOU were able to set aside your resentment of her mother and your feelings about material possessions and realize that it was HER well-being that you had in mind.
Is it petty? Yes. They are JUST CLOTHES, and they are HER CLOTHES. You got them for HER. How selfish is it that you would prevent her from wearing HER CLOTHES to her mother's home just because you don't want to share HER CLOTHING with her mother?
This web site is supposed to support WHAT'S IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE CHILDREN. Is it in the best interest for your daughter that you make sure she wears the same clothing she came over to your home in because you don't want her wearing her "good" clothes over to her mother's home? Who are you really thinking of when you do things like that? Doesn't sound like your daughter.

Now, I'm going to patiently wait for the mud to fly. Thank you for allowing me to voice my opinion.
Title: RE: Returning Child's Clothes After Visitation
Post by: charlie967 on Aug 08, 2005, 05:58:52 PM
I don't think you are being petty at all.  As a matter of fact, I wish you were my NCP  :-)!!!  

I (CP) have always provided clothes for DS to take while he is at his father's house EOW.  This also included all personal items such as toothbrush etc and some toys.  I always made sure they were nice but kid friendly (parent washer friendly too).  But everytime an outfit either was left behind or he would come home in something that was 2 sizes too small or they were his cousin's clothes (female).  I always asked for the clothes back and sent whatever came from his house back.  It even states in our paperwork that personal items and clothes need to make it back to the house they came from.  So after a few years of doing this we decided to not send clothes other than what he is wearing when he leaves.  But before the summertime visit, DS told me his father told him he did not have any money for clothes and that I needed to bring some for over there.  So I loaded him up with enough clothes for his 31 days with a list of all the clothes, underwear and everything he took.  It all managed to come home.

I wonder sometimes if it's petty too but I do know that the bottom line for me is that I do not want DS to be without clothes that fit him properly and that look nice.  I'm not talking expensive but clothes that are clean and halfway match.  So if I have to send clothes over there, I will and I will continue to ask for them back too as I would hope his father would too if I forget to send them back.  

Those are just my ramblings...sorry it got longer than expected.

Have a good day!!
Title: RE: Who's clothes are they?
Post by: smtotwo on Aug 08, 2005, 06:27:40 PM
They are MY clothes.  DH's ex REFUSES to send ANY clothes here for the boys.  I buy their clothes not DH.

Best interest of the children?  My 11 yr old ss wets the bed.  The psychomommy refuses to send his nasal spray to our home because
and I quote here "They should wash the sheets if you wet the bed".
She said that to my ss who was 8. EIGHT! I'm sorry there is no best interest of the child with this woman only how do I get the most money
and really screw up their relationship with the kids.
She wouldn't give us any med info.  We finally took him to our family
Dr. and have a spray we keep here. NOW she's mad because she doesn't have any more at home and WE SHOULD send it home because
its for SS.  And she quit her job that had insurance because she thought that they would order DH to provide=more monay for her!  But DH has had the same job for 17 yrs and because of the size of the company they don't offer insurance.  Shes mad NOW because she has to pay 1/2 of ALL med expenses!!



Sadly, the skids know the score because psychomommy told them that
DH wasn't really their dad and her new husband is. We go out of our way not to say anything about her to them, but you can bet they get
an earful both before and after every visit!!

O-K my vent is done.
Title: RE: Returning Child's Clothes After Visitation
Post by: dontunderstand on Aug 08, 2005, 06:29:17 PM
We buy and keep the clothes here, she goes home in what she came in.  HOWEVER, when SD comes in shoes 2 sizes to small and clothes equally as small we purchase things that go home.  SD has repeatedly told me that BM does NOT want ME washing HER clothes.  So I went with that for a minute, but honestly it is gross, so I don't listen.  Funny BM always tells us that she needs to come back in the walmart clothes that she sent her in, yet the few times she has borrowed DD clothes they never seen another day in our house...and yes it is in the best interest of the child, but how is it in her best interest to take home the things we bought for her and not have nice things here for her?  We even tried to buy school supplies for SD and were ademently told "NO" so there it goes.    
Title: RE: Who's clothes are they?
Post by: TPK on Aug 08, 2005, 06:37:33 PM
>They are your daughter's clothes. You got them for her. If she
>doesn't have "nice" clothing at her mother's house, or her
>mother sends her over to your home in ratty-tatty stuff, then
>who should be the one that provides nice clothing for her?
>You are her parent. You are SUPPOSED to provide clothing,
>shoes, school supplies, a roof over her head, food in her
>belly, etc. If her mother doesn't, then YOU are supposed to
>step up and help YOUR DAUGHTER in that area.


I never said the clothes wife sent daughter over in were (to quote you) "ratty tatty". Sure they're not Donna Karan, but they're also not ripped, dirty or unsightly.

I have "stepped up", I pay CS EVERY MONTH. I pay enough CS where I'm sure wife spends some on HERSELF too. Don't lecture me on "stepping up" please, that is laughable.






 Who do you think
>she's going to remember did that for her? She's going to
>remember that YOU were able to set aside your resentment of
>her mother and your feelings about material possessions and
>realize that it was HER well-being that you had in mind.

Sure, my daughter is 15 months old. I'm SURE she'll remember Daddy sported the Ralph Lauren and Mom bought at yard sales. My daughter has NO CONCEPT right now of what she's wearing....gimme a break.




>Is it petty? Yes. They are JUST CLOTHES, and they are HER
>CLOTHES. You got them for HER. How selfish is it that you
>would prevent her from wearing HER CLOTHES to her mother's
>home just because you don't want to share HER CLOTHING with
>her mother?

They are MY clothes for HER. If you met my ex, you might agree she deserves nothing. Any woman who takes a child and secrets themselves and daughter from dad for 4 MONTHS deserves nothing. Me selfish???... ha ha, that's a joke pal. The ex is the most selfish self centered miserable human being I've ever met (now you can slam me for marrying her)




>This web site is supposed to support WHAT'S IN THE BEST
>INTEREST OF THE CHILDREN. Is it in the best interest for your
>daughter that you make sure she wears the same clothing she
>came over to your home in because you don't want her wearing
>her "good" clothes over to her mother's home? Who are you
>really thinking of when you do things like that?

Doesn't sound
>like your daughter.

What does that mean? please clarify.

I don't mind sending her back in "good" clothes....just GIVE THEM BACK TO ME and don't "help yourself" to what ISN'T yours.



Please note that you are the only dissenting voice here. My daughter does in fact have nice clothes other than what Mom sends her over in. I know this from Dr. visits and other drop-ins during non-visitation times.


>Now, I'm going to patiently wait for the mud to fly. Thank you
>for allowing me to voice my opinion.

This is America, you can voice your opinion all you want. Just note that nobody else here seems to agree with you. You're alone in your own corner.


TPK
Title: RE: Who's clothes are they?
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Aug 08, 2005, 08:32:59 PM
Oh. please, give me a break!

Most of us here are dealing with a PBFH, parents who don't give a sh!t, just want the MONEY. We would not have to be here otherwise. CS should cover children's clothing, proper size, seasonal, comfortable.

Our son is sent with sweats in 95 degree weather, 78% humidity. Does that sound like a rational adult? A person fit to parent? In the winter, total reverse, no coat, hat or gloves. NICE.

I take and dress according to the weather, find things he is just about ready to outgrow. If I get it back, fine, if not, no big deal, but our son will be dressed for HIS COMFORT.

The issue with the clothes should not affect the child. Comfort does. And many here have extra clothes for their kids in their homes, because Mommy sure isn't going to send them any. Children KNOW who cares and loves them.

And, most of us have already given all we have, so let's just give some more?. Ex already walked away with House, car, retirement, clothes on our back, tax exemptions, half of personal property, the list could go on.
And then to claim, "I have no money for clothes", how imature.

Must be nice to have someone you can "work with", but for the rest of us, we have to live in the "real world".
Title: I would be peeved too
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Aug 08, 2005, 08:39:20 PM
Washing the clothes and having her wear them back is one thought. I buy a few things from K-mart or Walmart, just for occasions when I did not get to the laundry. The weekends go so fast as it is.

No, you are not being petty. You want your child to feel at home when she is with you, feeling she belongs, having her own clothes at your home, gives her this. Tells her, this is her home too.
 
"Children learn what they live"
Title: PAS?
Post by: BigFamily on Aug 08, 2005, 08:48:47 PM
Well, just to let you all know, who are nay-saying my previous post, I actually "came to my senses" by using an article on this web site about Parental Alienation Syndrome. You all might have even read it yourselves. It's titled, "Questions for Alienators". When I read the questions, I was astonished that I was able to answer "yes" to quite a few of those questions. Let me give you an example of some of the questions (quoted directly from the article):

"B. Signs of Alienation:

1.In Parents

Below are the more common symptoms of parental alienation. Many of these behaviors will look familiar, because some alienation occurs in all divorces. Some symptoms may come as a surprise, because many don't think of the behavior as something that can hurt children. Common symptoms include:

. Supporting the child's refusal to visit the other parent without reason;

. Allowing children to choose whether or not to visit a parent, even though the court has not empowered the parent or children to make that choice;

. Telling the children about why the marriage failed and giving them the details about the divorce settlement;

. Refusing the other parent access to medical and school records or schedules of extracurricular activities;

. Blaming an ex-spouse for not having enough money, changes in lifestyle, or other problems in the children's presence;

. Refusing to acknowledge that the child has personal property and denying the child control over taking personal possessions to the other parent's home;"

Interestingly enough, I was pretty shocked by that last question, to which I could certainly answer "Yes" to. Might want to think about that.
Title: RE: I would be peeved too
Post by: FLMom on Aug 09, 2005, 03:30:57 AM
I gave up the ghost on this issue a long time ago. I'm 5 years post divorce, kids spend about 50/50 between homes now.

Got a call from my son Sunday night. He was cleaning out his closet and was just amazed at all of the things he had found. Clothes, long
outgrown, after more times than I can count of him telling me, "Dad says I have all my clothes over here and I have to bring them all home". Yeah right. I knew darn well what I had bought and sent home with him and his sisters over the years, and there they all were---clothes, shoes, coats, windbreakers, toys, cars, games---you name it.

I'm sure if you add it up, he probably found a few thousand dollars worth of merchandise in the vast wasteland that is a young boy's closet. In my case it wasn't a malicious ex that hid the stuff, it was an ex that allowed a elementary schooler to wash his own clothes and keep track of his own stuff.

Like I said, I gave up on this a long time ago. I'd either see the stuff again or I wouldn't. I just got tired of pettyness, and with it being items that either directly or indirectly belonged to the kids, I had to just let it go or risk becoming a screaming meemee. Do I pay CS? Yup. Am I always robbing the change jar? Yup. I just held onto the hope that one day the kids would get old enough to realize these kinds of little things, and they have.

So this week it's all going to be brough back here---the clothes and shoes that are too small will go to his cousins, there will soon be a bunch of "new" old stuff to do here with all of the toys and junk, and the rest is going to charity.

It's not really an answer on how to deal with this, it's just how I've dealt.

FLMom
Title: RE: Who's clothes are they?
Post by: jilly on Aug 09, 2005, 07:48:49 AM
My SD doesn't come to our house in ratty tatty clothes or clothes/shoes that are too small for her.  Obvioiusly the child support is being spent to a certain extent for the purpose for which it was intended.

BUT, when she doesn't bring an overnight bag with clothes for the weekend that means I (and I stress the I) have to provide clothes for her to wear when she's with us.  I don't mind doing that.  What I DO mind is having to buy clothes every time I turn around because clothes from our house never made it back from her house.  You may have the financial means to buy clothes more than once a month but I don't.

Heck...I just bought MYSELF a $10.00 dress at Wal-Mart on Saturday (which I look quite smashing in I must say! LOL).  That's the first new outfit I've been able to buy for myself in 2 years.  I make sure that my SD and daughter have the clothes and shoes they need before I even THINK about getting something for myself. My poor husband needs new shirts and pants, but he gets put on the backburner too.  As is so often the case, when it comes to "our" turn, the money is needed for something else.
Title: RE: PAS?
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Aug 09, 2005, 08:56:34 AM
I think you are missing the point here. Read the posts, the kids are coming in clothes that don't fit, no bag sent, improper dressing, we have to supply clothes. WHO IS PASING WHO?

I buy cheap clothes for this purpose, keep the good stuff at my house. How would my son feel if all the clothes are eventually sent home to mommy's house and I have nothing for him at mine. He needs the sense of belonging at my home too.

Our son will ask if he can take something, toys,  to mommys, I tell him that it is his toy, but when he comes back, I ask that he bring it with him so we can play with it when he is with me. Sometimes it comes back, sometimes it does not.

I just got thru with sending him with an expensive toy, Mommy has locked it away, can't find the key. Give me a break, it is the ex who is being selfish. I would consider this Pas.
Title: BTDT Advice
Post by: 4honor on Aug 09, 2005, 10:23:46 AM
You handled it well. You returned the clothes BM sent in clean order and you didn't make a huge deal about asking for the other ones back.

Just don't add any fuel to a conflict by reading too much into your ex's comments. She honestly may have forgotten... I think very little about the kids' clothes except to keep track of are they clean and in good repair, or do they need a bigger size. A borrowed piece of clothing is rarely noticed until the second wash through (Dh does the laundry).

Maybe send LO home in several outfits that are not your favorites over the next few visits. When Ex has 3-4 outfits, ask Ex to send child to you IN those clothes -- you can keep track of the outfits and retire them as they get too small, replacing with another. (I only suggest this because the outifts were a gift. If you had to purchase them and send child support, I would not counsel this way.)

In our case, BM is court ordered to send clothing to our home (that is what CS is for per the court). There are a few items we purchase for SS as he never has appropriate shoes or a jacket -- but that is what happens when 14 yo SS packs for himself.  The order saved us nearly $1200 the first year.

Also, we had to outlaw sweats for SS as HIS COMFORT seemed to mean HOLES in his sweats. (Ahhhhh, the things you are going to miss having a girl instead.) But I digress.

Stay civil in all matters, think of your child first when things become frustrating and don't start a fight where none may exist.  However, if you ever have to stand your ground, then do not back down.
Title: lots of experience here
Post by: catherine on Aug 09, 2005, 10:37:54 AM
I totally disagree with this point ...

 Refusing to acknowledge that the child has personal property and denying the child control over taking personal possessions to the other parent's home;"

due to experience.  MANY, and I mean MANY times we have sent the children with whatever toy they wanted to bring over, only to have it never return again.  Who loses out then?  The child, who only sees their Mother maybe 4 days a month (by her choice, not ours) and can't play with the toy while it sits over there for 26 days unused?  Same goes with clothes.  Of course we sent necessary things like "blankies" but we are over that stage now.

My OSS insisted on bringing his gameboy to Mom's. (he snuck it in his pocket actually) Forgot it there and didn't get it for 3 weeks.  Second time he brought it there, took the cord to his Aunt's house, 3 hours away, and left the recharge cable there.  It's still there.  Oh well, his loss.

Now we only let the kids take things over that WE don't care if they leave over there.

I say when the children are responsible enough, 14 and over, they can bring whatever they want back and forth, but at that level of maturity, they should be accountable for their posessions and the parents should NEVER replace an item if the child forgot it.
Title: LOL!
Post by: catherine on Aug 09, 2005, 10:42:31 AM
You think a 14 year old packing his bag is bad?  When we were NCP's, PB made the 7 yr old pack his bag for him and for his little 3 yr old brother!  We figured out way back then to buy clothes and keep them at our house.

Now we are CP and have a hard time sending the boys clothes over.  She pays CS very spordically and again, many, many times we have sent items over and she keeps them out of spite.  CS doesn't cover replacing a wardorbe every few months!  And it's just so stupid for her to keep the clothes, when she only wanted to see the kids 4 days a month.
Title: RE: Returning Child's Clothes After Visitation
Post by: flewwellin on Aug 10, 2005, 04:55:52 PM
You are lucky that you inherited free clothing that fit your daughter that are also really nice quality brands.  Since this seems to be a real issue for you I think you handled it ocorrectly.

However..... Your statement and I quote "I feel like I'm the Salvation Army or something." seems to be out of line.  I am a stepmom myself, and wife to a man who pays child support to a woman for their 2 adorable children.  The way we handle this (our sittuation is probably a lot different from yours, I don't know what you've gone through and really can't say one way or the other if I'd have reacted the same way) the BM in our sittuation actually sends clothes for the kids when we have our parenting time with the kids.  Out of 52 wks a year we are granted 9 of those weeks and only 5 of those are consecutive (the kids live 500+ miles away).  She sends clothing, if we see something that they have out grown or is ripped or whatever and really need replacing we replace it.  It is your duty as a parent to take care of your children and this inclueds clothing and whatever else they need.  If something is ruined while they are with us we replace it also.  I would want her to do the same for us.  I just think that you need to think of it as benefitting your daughter not the ex taking things from you and not returning them.  If this truly bothers you then I suggest you do as you did this last time.  Just use the clothing that she sends your child in.
Title: RE: Returning Child's Clothes After Visitation
Post by: wendl on Aug 10, 2005, 08:03:57 PM
Well my ex has always sent the kids in dirty ripped clothing when they come to visit, We buy clothes for the kids that stay at our house. We sednd them home in the clothing they came in, I lost a brand new pair of levi's that I let my oss wear home one weekend as he spilled water on the pants from moms.

This time was better, since it has been awhile since we have seen the kids due to us moving, we asked bm to please send 2 outfits or so as we needed to see what sizes they were in now, which she did and it was much appreciated when she sent and overnight bag.

Bottome line is, you pay support for your kids, hence mom should be buying the kids clothes and sending overnight bags. But that is not always the case, I always send my son with enough clothes while he is with his dad or grandparents. You are lucky that your daughter has an aunt who helps out so much.

Send the child back in the clothing that she came in. I am sure you can find another mother whom would appreciate the clothing that you give to her (if or when the child outgrows them) I used to take them to a local shelter for highschool mothers. They always thanked us and the older kids always drew a thank you card.


**These are my opinions, they are not legal advice**
Title: RE: Returning Child's Clothes After Visitation
Post by: c_alexander on Aug 11, 2005, 12:02:24 PM
I had BIG problems with this. Seemed like mommy only sent our daughter in dirty play clothes, but when i returned her in good clothes they got put in mommys closet. When i would ask fo rthem back we ended up in an arguement because she would say the clothes were hers not mine. I solved the problem by asking mommy to send clothes with our daughter and I would send her back with the all of the clothes she sent. Making sure they were washed upon being returned....much like what you are doing.

It's really sad that these people resort to tricks like this to squeeze us for a few more bucks here or there.
Title: RE: Returning Child's Clothes After Visitation
Post by: wysiwyg on Aug 11, 2005, 01:58:53 PM
Here's our story.  We would usually be BM house when she would get home in her car.  She would take child out of the car grab him by the hood of his navy blue down jacket and drag him in the house.  Make BF get out of the car to come to the door even though she  saw us in driveway and pulled up beside us.   BM sends child out the door in old worn for several years hand me down brown torn jacket.  When we complained in court the judge said that "unless she sends the child out the door naked" then he would not rule on anything else.

Fast forward to years later, mom refuses to send ANY clothes with child when he is with us for the weekend, and only 2 changes of clothes for 2-3 weeks in summer.  Then she has the B++++ to write in a letter to wash the clothes nightly so he has a clean set daily, and on weekends we are supposed to wash his clothes every night so he has something to wear the next day.  We too have bought clothes, but BM has ingrained in his head that our "clothes" are bad and "not what he likes" therefore we are "useless".  Clothes that have been purchased or sent as gifts and allowed child to wear home and never returned despite court ordering her to do so and letters asking nicely to please return since they were gifts from siblings and family.  
Title: RE: Returning Child's Clothes After Visitation
Post by: metamorphosis on Aug 11, 2005, 09:02:08 PM
My stepsons' BM refuses to send the boys with any clothes even for our 6 week summer visitation.  She sends them over in clothes way too small, or ripped for them.  I go buy new clothes and send them home, and never see them again.  I have probably spent more money on their clothes this year than my 3 daughters because she has about a 3 year backlog of old clothes and she keeps sending them over in them.  They are never dressed appropriately for the season either.  My 8 yr old step son was in a size 2T pair of underwear a couple of months ago!
Unfortunately, she won't work, so she spends the child support on clothes for her so she "can get a job."  So we still take the old clothes she sends them in, throw them away, and send them home in the new clothes.  There are a few outfits I won't let them take back to her house, but for the most part they can take what they want so they have nice clothes to wear to school.  They are only here for eow and summers.
Hopefully that will change soon.
Title: RE: Returning Child's Clothes After Visitation
Post by: c_alexander on Aug 12, 2005, 01:14:34 PM
" We too have bought clothes, but BM has ingrained in his head that our "clothes" are bad and "not what he likes" therefore we are "useless"."

Personally I wouldn't give the child a choice. It is either wear what is provided or go naked. Kids sometimes play these games especially in divorced households to gain attention or what they want.

I'd also start sending the child home naked if the mother can't provide clothing. Obviously the mother has to she him in something. I would make the child change into your clothes when you get htem ion weekend and send him back in the clothes that she sent him in when you return him. If you make him change the moment you get him then the clothes will still be clean enough to send him back in.

Bottom line if mommy doesn't like it she can be more reasonable. Don't let her ignorance and pettiness bring you down.
Title: RE: Who's clothes are they?
Post by: VegasMom77 on Aug 17, 2005, 11:55:35 AM
I agree with you. My fiance' and I did that for several months, sending her back with the same clothes she arrived it. It was very time consuming to do a separate load of laundry every night just to send her back in the same outfit because BM was so concerned about her labels.

We came to this conclusion. The child is well dressed at both homes and is not lacking in this area. However, we want to teach her good hygeine habits now and not later. She will not wear the same outfit two days in a row. She will wear a different outfit, underwear and socks. The only thing that we send back that is the same are her shoes. We informed BM of this and while she complains a little bit, it gives the child a lot more freedom when she wants to pick her own outfit the next morning.

When you spend thousands of dollars on attorneys to fight for a smidge of visitation, the last thing you ever want to do is balk over something as simple as clothing. My fiance' gets to see her. THAT is what he's fighting for, not for the right to have her clothing.



>I used to make sure that my step-son went back in the clothes
>that his mother sent him in. We "lost" a LOT of clothing that
>we had purchased for my step-son to his mother's house.  We
>even made sure that my step-son "remembered" to bring back
>anything that he had worn over to his mother's house. Talk
>about putting my step-son in the middle of something petty and
>selfish. But then my husband and I started asking each other,
>"Who are we buying the clothes for? Us or him?"
>They are your daughter's clothes. You got them for her. If she
>doesn't have "nice" clothing at her mother's house, or her
>mother sends her over to your home in ratty-tatty stuff, then
>who should be the one that provides nice clothing for her?
>You are her parent. You are SUPPOSED to provide clothing,
>shoes, school supplies, a roof over her head, food in her
>belly, etc. If her mother doesn't, then YOU are supposed to
>step up and help YOUR DAUGHTER in that area. Who do you think
>she's going to remember did that for her? She's going to
>remember that YOU were able to set aside your resentment of
>her mother and your feelings about material possessions and
>realize that it was HER well-being that you had in mind.
>Is it petty? Yes. They are JUST CLOTHES, and they are HER
>CLOTHES. You got them for HER. How selfish is it that you
>would prevent her from wearing HER CLOTHES to her mother's
>home just because you don't want to share HER CLOTHING with
>her mother?
>This web site is supposed to support WHAT'S IN THE BEST
>INTEREST OF THE CHILDREN. Is it in the best interest for your
>daughter that you make sure she wears the same clothing she
>came over to your home in because you don't want her wearing
>her "good" clothes over to her mother's home? Who are you
>really thinking of when you do things like that? Doesn't sound
>like your daughter.
>
>Now, I'm going to patiently wait for the mud to fly. Thank you
>for allowing me to voice my opinion.
Title: RE: Returning Child's Clothes After Visitation
Post by: SEM on Aug 18, 2005, 07:45:36 AM
If there was no "primary" parent and everything was on the up-and-up, having a parent not return clothing would maybe be classified as a "hassle".  

However, when one parent is basically removed from their child's life against their will and against the child's "best interest", these "hassles" are magnified!  The power struggle that ends so many marriages is perpetuated by court decree.    

Like TPK, my daughter had boxes of great quality clothing handed down from my sister's kids.  Each parent has a home with a room for our daughter complete with toys, clothes, etc.  When property was divided, I looked for and requested the boxes of clothes.  As you may have guessed, child's mom didn't have any idea where they were.  However, three years after separation, my daughter continues to show up wearing these clothes, (my niece's initials are in everything).  

Isn't it obvious to people that abuse of power is at the root of these types of struggles?  "Them's that have it, keep it" as they say.  IMHO, besides being best for children, equal parenting limits a parent's abuse of power and reduces conflict.  

Respectfully,
SEM
Title: RE: Returning Child's Clothes After Visitation
Post by: mc24 on Aug 18, 2005, 10:26:19 AM
The BM in our case does the same thing.  She didn't send SD in any nice clothes, ever.  Always something too small, etc.  Well, we decided a long time ago not to let it bother us.  I really think that a lot of times (and definitely in our case) they do things like this just to try to get a rise out of you.  It was not that big of a deal to buy a few outfits for SD, and when she was pretty young and we picked her clothes, we never got the cute stuff back.  That was a pain.  But it drove BM crazy that we never said anything about it.  That was fun!  ;)  Now that she picks her own clothes (with us), she has the freedom to choose her own style.  BM does not like her style, and therefore we get back just about all the clothes we buy.  I guess what I'm saying is don't let stuff like this get to you and I think that attitude will work to your benefit in the end.
Title: RE: Returning Child's Clothes After Visitation
Post by: SEM on Aug 18, 2005, 08:16:42 PM
I like what you said.  
Parents who remain "engaged" in conflict can not STAND it when they do not get a rise out of you.  Just document what they do...but remain cool as a clam.  They will either:
A.) Stop the petty BS or (more likely)
B.) Try harder to get a rise out of you by doing something more overt.

Either way, you win.  They either quit being petty or eventually do something really stupid that you can use to prove contempt, etc.  It's HARD when you miss your kids but sometimes the best revenge is having a good life despite someone's efforts otherwise.  Be firm and cool about your boundaries but do not "react" the way she/he wants you to.

Peace,
SEM

Title: RE: Returning Child's Clothes After Visitation
Post by: SSDD on Aug 21, 2005, 05:32:24 PM
We face the same problem with XW- we buy new wardrobes for each of the girls at the beginning of each new season ...............and she refuses to send them back to us. She sends them in the same outfit time after time..........one of their old, ill fitting play outfits that isn't appropriate to wear anywhere.
We had the atty send a letter of complaint to her, the court and her atty, and since then we have gotten our clothing back.....but with subtle changes. A brand new pair of jeans has a permanent bleach stain prominently on the leg. The new shirt, a ripped hole along the belly that cannot be easily repaired.
We have now begun photographing the girls in their outfits before they leave.
Documentation is the key, or so I have heard.
Title: RE: Returning Child's Clothes After Visitation
Post by: mango on Aug 25, 2005, 10:13:47 AM
This is the ONLY thing my DH and his ex agreed to early on.

We take the clothes SD wears and put all of it in a grocery bag, and send it back to moms house and vise versa. More often then not we just send her back with the clothes she wore over.

This just makes sense because that parent took the time to shop and select the clothes for thier child. Perhaps they match other clothing in thier home or were a special outfit from a grandparent. Chances are the clothes dad picked will never even be worn at moms house, because of differing tastes etc etc...So why not return them. Children understand moms house dads house.  

It's just being practical.

Now, as my SD gets older she will develop her own taste in clothing and have favorite clothes that she may have picked out herself. At this time I think it would be fair to assume that she can be mature enough to be in charge of what she wants to wear from moms house during her dads week and mom's week form dads house.

Just my opinion.

Title: RE: Returning Child's Clothes After Visitation
Post by: mango on Aug 25, 2005, 10:31:09 AM
One more thing.

I used to take a sharpie pen and make a tiny smiley face on the inseem of all her clothes. A subliminal thing that showed it was from dads house.

The BM hates any reminders of DH anyway, and won't let SD wear (or play with toys from our home) anyway. The grocery-bag thing only worked for a few weeks and then she stopped sending clothes back from dads home. They usually got discarded instead of returned, so we have been sending her home in her moms stuff. Because it simply is not practical to keep buying the clothes over and over again.

But in our case we are dealing with a PAS psycho. I only mentioned the bag thing cause it could work for other people. :-)
Title: RE: PAS?
Post by: T0052SC on Aug 25, 2005, 11:04:49 AM
Bigfamily,
You have taken a lot of guff for your opinion on the kid’s clothes.  I my opinion you are correct.  I fully expect mud thrown at me now too, but I have a big shield.  One thing I think a lot of the others are forgetting is when you buy these clothes your intent is for the clothes to be the kids, and you would allow them to wear them any where the kids want with the contingency it is with you.  That sounds selfish, and controlling!!  I look at it this way, if you and the ex were still married you would have no problem supplying these clothes plus addition money for the other parent to supply additional stuff, but now that the marriage has ended you want to set up traps for the ex to fall in to so it will put you up on a platform.  This sounds controlling and like PAS.  The clothes are purchased for the kids and unless you can wear them the clothes are now the possession of the kids and it shouldn't matter where they wear them in your custody or the ex's.

I also saw some of the replies that bothered me and I would like to comment;

>Sure, my daughter is 15 months old. I'm SURE she'll remember Daddy sported the Ralph Lauren and Mom bought at yard sales. My daughter has NO CONCEPT right now of what she's wearing....gimme a break.

Does it matter who supplied the better clothes?  Do you really think your kid cares who supplied the better clothes?  Do you really want to raise a materialistic child that will become selfish because se was taught to think some one is better because they pay more for their possession?

>They are MY clothes for HER. If you met my ex, you might agree she deserves nothing. Any woman who takes a child and secrets themselves and daughter from dad for 4 MONTHS deserves nothing. Me selfish???... ha ha, that's a joke pal. The ex is the most selfish self centered miserable human being I've ever met (now you can slam me for marrying her)

I understand you feel hurt but don't use the child to seek your revenge.  It was not you kid's fault that the mother kept you from them so don't make them suffer for it.

Remember raising a child is not about who can out do the other parent, but how to instill good values, morals, and make a well adjusted confident adult out of the mold.  By expecting the child to choose some one by how much they spend on them or what they give them will only corrupt the long term goal of raising a child.  
Title: Big family..........
Post by: msme on Aug 25, 2005, 07:04:33 PM
you obviously have a better situation than most of the folks here. We aren't dealing with this problem anymore but when we did, it was a nightmare. My son got his kids with the rags on their backs. Even when court ordered, she refused to give him anything, including the baby's bed baby. He had to buy them everything from the skin out.

We sent them in nice new outfits & they came back in rags. She went to court & claimed that they had outgrown what she had at her house & they ordered us to send a bag & her to return it.

His ex would keep all the clothes & send them back in more rags & with the empty bag. After two rounds of this, we told the older kids to make sure they wore home one of the outfits from our house.  That was when they told us that the clothes were gone. They thought mom had sold them.

After that, I layed out all of the clothes on the sofa & took polaroid pics of them. I then took pics of the kids. I also typed up a list of the clothes & made 3 copies. He had her sign 2 copies & gave her the third one. He then told her that if she did not return the clothes on the list, the pics & the list would be sent to the court. We also took pics of the kids when they returned.

After that, there was only one time she didn't bring something back & she apologized & brought it the next time she picked up the kids. The point is that many people here have gone deep into debt, just trying to get to see their kids. Buying clothes for no reason becomes a great hardship that they shouldn't have to endure.

You never get a second chance to make a first impression!
Title: RE: PAS?
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Aug 25, 2005, 07:18:17 PM
If you had read some of the other posts, you would have read, clothes that don't fit, not seasonal, damaged and so on.

Again I ask, who pas's who on what is sent with the kids.

I wish you people would read before you judge....

MY SON WILL BE DRESSED FOR HIS COMFORT
Title: RE: PAS?
Post by: T0052SC on Aug 26, 2005, 06:38:12 AM
I respect your answer and don't denie that there is probably some level of PAS on both sides.  My argument though is that unless you presonally are going to wear the clothes the kids should be able to take possession of them and wear them any where including your house or the ex's.  

On the note of the postings that delt with clothes that are not seasonal, ratty, or just not the right size.  I read some where people were returning the kids in those clothes to prevent the ex from being able to use the new, seasonal, fit correctly clothes.  For those postings my argument is if you return the kid in the same ratty, unseasonal, incorrect fit clothes as they came, how are you any better than your ex.  A lot of you posted that you wanted to set an example of a better life style but by practicing that you don't.  You all basicly have explessed that you feel the ex is saving the good stuff for there house and using the incorrect clothes for transfer.  If you do the same you are no better that the ex and the kids will see that.  If you take the stance of, letting the kid take possession and wear nicer clothes back to the ex's the kid will feel that you are giving them some autonomy and freedom.  That the kid will respect and that will show the kid love.  

Another thing, by making a big stink of this especially to the ex, you are giving the ex the power they want.  I think a lot of you are missing the motivation the ex has.  A lot of the posting feel that the ex is doing this to suplement income so the child suport does not have to be used on clothes.  I think you are wrong.  I think the motivation is the ex knows this upsets you and is controlling your emotions through this.  The ex still has ill feelings towards you but the ex is not trying to get you back through money, but through knowing this upsets you.  It just happends that the way to your feelings is through your money.

When it comes to money just remmember that money is something we all want but non of us have, so what does it matter.
Title: Our issue is....
Post by: smtotwo on Aug 29, 2005, 11:30:53 AM
she has nice things for them, she just refuses to send them to our house.
She'd rather have us buy them, than spend HER child support on clothes for the kids.

And Franly, we cannot afford to dress the kids, with the amount of child support DH pays.  So the clothes they have at our house are either
rummage sale, goodwill, or hand me downs from my 13 yr old.

She bought them new winter jackets last yr, the kids told us thay had new jakcets and boots, then sent them to our house in WINDBREAKERS and TENNIES WITHOUT SOCKS!!

NOTHING that we buy goes to their house.  NOTHING!
Title: RE: PAS?
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Aug 29, 2005, 09:16:12 PM
I read back thru all the posts. Yes, a few did agree they send the child back with the clothes they came in, but these posts were separate from those of us dealing with the seasonal issues, ratty, not proper fit.

I disagree with your last paragraph, I think it is emotional abuse on the child to have to dress this way. What message does this send?

Most of us do not allow this to upset us, we plan for these occurences. On all the posts, they wrote they dressed the children properly for return and did not recieve the clothes back. Some of us are unable to continue buying new clothes.

What DOES upset me, is the shame and embarassment the child endures.

It is not just about the clothes, it is a combination of issues. As parents, we hate to see our children living thru this abuse.
Title: Perhaps, there is another solution.....
Post by: msme on Aug 30, 2005, 07:35:12 AM
Perhaps, you could start taking pictures of the children as they arrive & as they leave. Buy a few nice yard sale items for this & return what she sends. After about a month or 2, write her a very polite, CRR letter. Include copies of the pics & state that,.....as can be seen in the pics, the children are not being dressed appropriately for their visits & they are not carrying the clothes that they wore home from the last visit. Please note the difference in the clothing they return home in.

Since it is embarrassing to them to be dressed inappropriately, please refrain from doing so. Also it is not right for you to keep all the clothes I send them home in & send the children in things that are ratty & ill fitting or seasonally inappropriate. If you continue to do this, I will have no choice but to bring this issue to the attention of the court, along with these pictures & the others I will be continuing to take.
Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Don't know if it will help but I don't think it will hurt. It is not an nice situation to deal with but who knows, it might work.

Good luck & God bless!
You never get a second chance to make a first impression!
Title: RE: Returning Child's Clothes After Visitation
Post by: babymakes8 on Aug 31, 2005, 08:38:32 AM
Ok, been there, done that.  We've learned our lesson with regards to my stepchildren's clothes.

My stepchildren see us once a month....and when my dh's parents buy them clothes for birthdays, easter, Xmas, etc..we send it home to their mother.  Why you ask?  Because what is the sense of keeping clothes at our house for children we see once a month for two days at a time?  Who does that hurt?  The kids.  Why should we hoard away nice, new clothing for kids we rarely see.

On the other hand, I can certainly see the point being made by other posters with regards to sending the children home in the clothing they have at their houses for the children.....my thinking on this is:  If the child's custodial parent refuses to send the child to the NCP in nice clothes because she/he is afraid that it won't be returned, then don't expect the NCP to send the child back with the nice clothes THEY have provided for the child as well.

*sigh*  May the mud fly at me now.

Title: RE: Returning Child's Clothes After Visitation
Post by: notthemama on Sep 01, 2005, 09:14:12 AM
When my fiance & his Ex first separated, he told her to take any thing from the house that she wanted (she wanted to move out) - she took almost all of the children's clothes that fit! Everything left was either too small or ready to be thrown away. He had to purchase all new things for them, his best friend and I have also spent hundreds of dollars for new wardrobes.

When the children would come to him on Thursday he would take whatever they wore and wash it and put it in a plastic bag to take back to BM. He would dress them on Sunday in clothes from his house. However, when he would forget an undershirt or put the wrong pair of shorts in the bag; she would call him and ask him to bring it to her. But she would never return what he sent on accident. This happened several times and he never got back anything from her.

I told him to send them back home on Sunday, in what they came to his house in on Thursday. He has maintained new clothes/shoes/jackets at his house for them to wear. His best friend does not want the clothes she buys for them to be sent to the BM house. She would send the kids to him in the ugliest, dirtiest, tackiest clothes I've ever seen. It made them look like they rolled out of a gutter!

She even freaked out one day at my house when she came to pick them up and my fiance put the wrong sweatshirt on their son.

[b]I don't see anything wrong with what you are doing.[/b]
Title: Something you might enjoy....
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Sep 01, 2005, 02:27:45 PM
No only do I take pictures, have witnesses, but also use weather underground to document the temperature and other weather related issues.

Videotape being presented by ex, will not only show the date and time, but will show the way our son is dressed. Then the documentation of the "improper dressing" will be submitted by her own hand. So, she will be submitting to the court, her negligence.

"Children learn what they live"