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Main Forums => Father's Issues => Topic started by: Brent on Jan 03, 2004, 04:31:32 PM

Title: I'm curious......why shouldn't women be drafted too?
Post by: Brent on Jan 03, 2004, 04:31:32 PM
Why shouldn't women be drafted too? Give me one good reason why women (and ONLY women) are exempt from the draft.

It's as clear a case of Federally mandated (and enforced) gender discrimination as I've ever seen. Here's how it works:

1) If you have a vagina, you're exempt. You get to stay home, all nice and warm and safe.

2) If you have a penis, off you go to the battlefield to be blown to bits.

Now, I've never heard an actual feminist response to this question. Any takers? Why shouldn't women be drafted too?

Title: I'm curious......why shouldn't women be drafted too?
Post by: Brent on Jan 03, 2004, 04:31:32 PM
Why shouldn't women be drafted too? Give me one good reason why women (and ONLY women) are exempt from the draft.

It's as clear a case of Federally mandated (and enforced) gender discrimination as I've ever seen. Here's how it works:

1) If you have a vagina, you're exempt. You get to stay home, all nice and warm and safe.

2) If you have a penis, off you go to the battlefield to be blown to bits.

Now, I've never heard an actual feminist response to this question. Any takers? Why shouldn't women be drafted too?

Title: RE: I'm curious......why shouldn't women be drafted too?
Post by: Indigo Mom on Jan 03, 2004, 08:13:20 PM
-----1) If you have a vagina, you're exempt. You get to stay home, all nice and warm and safe. -----

You also bleed for a week each month...SO THERE.  Them thar's our dues, baby.  

All kidding aside, lemme ask you a question.  Would you prefer to go into combat with peanutsdad next to you, or a woman?
Title: RE: I'm curious......why shouldn't women be drafted too?
Post by: Peanutsdad on Jan 03, 2004, 08:17:24 PM
Sorry, but Peanutsdad is a decorated vet,, and too damn old now,, he would do better now with a young woman,,I've come to accept my reflexes arent what they were. While I have experience,, sadly, I dont any longer have the reflexes to do what I know I was once trained to do.
Title: RE: lmao!!!!!
Post by: Indigo Mom on Jan 03, 2004, 08:33:47 PM
-----he would do better now with a young woman,,I've come to accept my reflexes arent what they were. -----

saaaaaaaaaaaaaaweet!  come on over to Denver, baby...who gives a rip about YOUR reflexes...I'm perty dernt flexible myself.  I'll make up for what you lack!  ooooooooooh...bad Indy...bad bad bad.

-----While I have experience,, sadly, I dont any longer have the reflexes to do what I know I was once trained to do.-----

Dude...I used your name as an example because you seem to be the only dude on the board.  Forgive me...and GET ON OVAH HEAH!!!!
Title: Goodness gracious Brent! Such grumpiness for a New Year! nm
Post by: nerd on Jan 03, 2004, 08:53:09 PM
11
Title: RE: Goodness gracious Brent! Such grumpiness for a New Year! nm
Post by: Brent on Jan 04, 2004, 09:52:57 AM
>Goodness gracious Brent!  Such grumpiness for a New Year! nm

Grumpiness aside, I noticed you neatly avoided answering the question. Do you think women should be drafted too, or do you believe they should be exempt from the draft, as they are now?
Title: RE: Goodness gracious Brent! Such grumpiness for a New Year! nm
Post by: sweetnsad on Jan 04, 2004, 10:21:27 AM
Seeing as how most woman are hollering for "equal rights" and all, then yes, I think they should be drafted as well.  JMO though.
Title: RE: lmao!!!!!
Post by: Rakkasan on Jan 04, 2004, 12:02:55 PM
[em][font color=red]Dude...I used your name as an example because you seem to be the only dude on the board.[/font] [/em]

Excuse Me!!!!! I am ugly beyond measure and have enough hair on my chest and back to weave a horse blanket the size of Wyoming and you say Peanutsdad seems to be the only guy on the board? Are you kidding me?

WAIT>>



Ugly beyond measure...




 and a hairy chest and back????




..... I guess I could be a feminist/charter member of NOW huh?
Title: RE: hmmmmmm....
Post by: Indigo Mom on Jan 04, 2004, 12:43:03 PM
I meant at the time.  I didn't see any other men posting at the time, so I used Mr. Peanut.

Anyway, what's with all the hair?  Do you have warts, too?  I didn't think you were a troll, but now I'm wondering...lol

You want to talk ugly?  Man...I chopped all my hair off yesterday and look like a fricken grandma!!!!  I've been a long hair all my life...now I'm a shortie.  And all types of Gramma like.  blech!

I challenge you to prove you're uglier than me.  


-----I guess I could be a feminist/charter member of NOW huh?-----

NEVER write anything like that again!  I had to wash the coffee off my damned monitor!!!!!!!!!
Title: Yes
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Jan 05, 2004, 01:19:54 PM
Women should be drafted if men are drafted.  However the United States abolished the draft many years ago.  Perhaps you are referring to selective service?  That's when men register when they turn 18.  Personally I think that's BS.  

Brent, speaking of vaginas, did you see the post on general issues where I posted that film clip of Jessica Lynch and Lori Piestewa?  We're going into places inhabited by savages.  I personally think that when it comes to shooting, a female is just as good as a male.  Let me tell you something.  We all went at it several months ago over on FR.  Several men laid it out about why women shouldn't be in combat.  1.  In a retreat situation, a female isn't going to be able to carry a wounded man to safety.  Most women aren't as physically strong as men.  2.  The Israeli Army used to draft women until they realized that it was counterproductive...the male soldiers would instinctively protect their female comrades.  They shifted the females out of battlefield duty.  

3.  Captured female soldiers are a total moral buster. Sorry Brent, that's just the way it is.  Btw, until my 9 yr old girl decides to be a ballerina or an astronaut, she wants to join the Army and kick ass :-)  It's cool with me.  

If you draft women, put them in positions that men normally do stateside.  Women are too much of a distraction in the battlefield.  Even though we can shoot just as good as you )(

Any Vets want to chime in?
Title: None here..........
Post by: Kitty C. on Jan 05, 2004, 01:59:03 PM
I remember back WAY when I graduated from HS when I was told that if all 18 MALES didn't sign up for the draft, they could be jailed and denyed access to college.  I couldn't believe it!

Then in 1989, along comes my son.  His father was astounded when I told him that if we had a girl, I would force her to sign up for the draft when she was 18 or I would withdraw ANY support (including college) from her.  So I asked him why he could allow a son of his but not a daughter, and he couldn't answer me.

I know all the crap about distractions and the usual BS about PMS, but when you have a military with a 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' attitude about gays in the military, tell me what's the difference?  I have no problem with gays in the military, but common sense tells you that if women would be a 'distraction', then gay males would too, right?  Same thing in my book.

JMO, but there is NO reason why women shouldn't be required to sign up.  And if I was 18 (again!), I would in a heartbeat.
Title: RE: Yes
Post by: tryn2begooddad on Jan 05, 2004, 02:53:18 PM
Being a former submarine sailor in our Navy one of the very few places women are never allowed I can offer my opinion. Yes I think the whole selective service thing is a crock of BS..An 18 year old man doesn't register he loses the ability to get student loans and what not for things like college or starting a business..An 18 year old woman doesn't have that prohibition.  Talk about sexism. I know some men that can't carry their comrades either so in a general sense it is true that women usually (not always) physically aren't stronger than men. But I know in the Navy they are also held to different standards forthe physical test. I do not see how a woman POW is more demoralizing that a male POW. Try telling John McCain or James Stockdale that a woman POW is different from them I think they would disagree..I look at it this way for those women that WANT to be in combat they know the risks when they VOLUNTEER (yes our services are all volunteer) so if they choose to be a combat soldier (since as ADULTS we make our own choices) then they accept the risks that come with it. And if the majority of women don't want the ability to go into harms way then maybe those that are at the forefront of the feminist movement need to rethink their agenda..just my two cents...hope you all had a happy new year
Title: Interesting,
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Jan 05, 2004, 06:17:09 PM
Thanks for the input.  A submarine would be the last place that you'd put men and women together, imo.

Because the price of freedom isn't cheap, I think that all 18 yr old Americans should serve in some capacity.  It might even cut down on those damn hippies.

A woman POW is more demoralizing because of instinct.  Of course we weep and rage when we see our guys being held captive, ie: VietNam, but this is a whole new ball game.  I don't know if it still works, but I posted a link to the video of the female captives on the general board.  Lori Piestewa died shortly after that video was taped.  The aggressors would have just shot them if they were men.  See what I mean?  there are nasty rumors of rape, etc.  I have 2 girls who are 21 and 24...they could be my girls.  They could be any of our girls.  What they do to men is not what they do to women.

My 9 yr old girl, at the moment, wants to join the Army.  
Title: RE: None here..........
Post by: Rakkasan on Jan 05, 2004, 08:00:22 PM
[em][font color=red]...common sense tells you that if women would be a 'distraction', then gay males would too, right?[/font][/em]

WRONG..... I can assure you I would not be distracted by them (unless they decide to wear pink BDU's, then I would not be so much distracted as I would be working hard to stay away from such an obvious targeting point.

here are some links from Fred Reed on women in the military that you may find enlightening

http://www.fredoneverything.net/WomenInCombat.shtml


http://www.fredoneverything.net/MilWomenII.shtml


http://www.fredoneverything.net/MoreWomenLetters.shtml
Title: RE: Interesting,
Post by: tryn2begooddad on Jan 06, 2004, 07:29:25 AM
We and the British are behind the curve in putting men and women together in submarines. Sweden has been doing it for years. It is a cultural awareness problem in this country but that is a whole side story to itself.  I saw the video link you posted. I have two daughters myself but if they desired to be in combat they would have to know and accept the risk to themselves. But to say that a woman POW is more demoralizing than a male one I think is crud..a POW is a POW. Should women then be forced back into the kitchen to stay barefoot and pregnant since this will make the men the protector and provider again?  Don't get me wrong yes it is a travesty if these women were raped but they also knew the risk associated when they joined the Army that being a soldier brings with it.  But to say women shouldnt be in combat because they are women is an argument that cant be made if women want to be treated as equal. And yes the torture they would receive is different in application than that which a man would be subjected to but it is still torture.
Title: I agree, but I need some help in trying to slot this information ...
Post by: MKx2 on Jan 06, 2004, 07:48:26 AM
Firstly, let me say that I am NOT trying to be argumentative about this issue, nor am I a promoter of the feminzi/NOW groups, NOR do I believe that women should be bare tootsied and with child all the time --

I am simply having issues inside my own head about this entire gender equality thing.

I sit here and read all the opinions like letting the women stay stateside and do all the jobs and put the men in the heat of the battles; put the women in battle and if they get captured and tortured "they knew what could happen"; and I wonder why the hell it has come to all of this?

I grew up in that transition era with family values that told me going to college was merely to get my "M.R.S." degree, while society was telling me that I should fight to have all the same rights as a man.  Perhaps this is in part why I have such an unsettled feeling over all of it.

It just would seem to me that we all, both men and women, should be more accepting of the differences and limitations of both sexes; that we should applaud these differences and focus on being the very best we can be, with those physical differences, the different thought patterns and natural abilities ...

Please don't flame me, as this truly is a something I have SUCH a hard time understanding ... can ANYone help me to understand why it all has to be so "equal"??  

Or am I asking for a lifetime of free therapy to do that ... LOL
Title: RE: Interesting,
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Jan 06, 2004, 10:22:59 AM
Until I was set straight by several men, I thought the same way, except for submarines and ships.  That will never work, unless you have only ugly women and gay men on board.

I used the Israeli Army as an example.  I was quickly provided links to show that the Israelis abandoned the practice after it was noted that the male soldiers were demoralized by seeing their female counterparts killed and wounded.  Remember Lynch, Johnson, and Piestewa were part of a support unit, they were not combat troops.

No, I don't think that women should be chained to the stove (with enough slack to reach the washer and dryer), barefoot and pregnant.  We just have to realize that no matter how badly certain people wish that men and women were exactly equal, wishing won't make it so.  I was presented with a lot of arguments against women in combat areas by men who are/were military.  There are tons of jobs for women in the military, and I think they should be encouraged to serve, but not serve as a distraction.
Title: RE: I agree, but I need some help in trying to slot this information ...
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Jan 06, 2004, 10:39:30 AM
It just would seem to me that we all, both men and women, should be more accepting of the differences and limitations of both sexes; that we should applaud these differences and focus on being the very best we can be, with those physical differences, the different thought patterns and natural abilities ...

[p]We can thank the feminists for turning everything upside down.  It's not so much that everything has to be so "equal", but more like destroying the natural order.  We are equal under the eyes of God and the law, meaning that God treats us the same, we are liable for the same penalties for breaking the law.  Other than that, we aren't equal.

[p]Women were designed to bear children.  Our physiology and emotional wiring is different from men.  Men are hunters, we are gatherers. No matter how the feminists, etc, try and wreak havoc with the natural order, it's still there.  Of course this creates huge problems with our identity.  Men and women are designed to fit together, emotionally and physically.  We weren't meant to compete or be the same.  It just doesn't work, and this has turned Western Civilization into a huge mess.

[p]Jmo...
Title: RE: I agree, but I need some help in trying to slot this information ...
Post by: tryn2begooddad on Jan 06, 2004, 10:52:49 AM
Hey I am all for realizing each of our respective sexes has inherit differences. I also agree that we should as humans strive to do and see the best not only in ourselves but in others.  I think a majority (and I might get flamed for this) of people realize that men and women are different..it is the few that stir the pot so to speak and bring the gender equality thing to the forefront.. Maybe we should blame the PC police for doing this..even the courts that proclaim equality when it comes to say CS they definately do not treat NCP moms the same as NCP dads (in general not going into a specific case or anything) so I guess once again we should blame the system just like we should blame the media for letting us buy into the ideal that to look good you have to be buff and a hardbody or thin and sticklike..just my two cents..and if you flame please be gentle
Title: I love Fred's columns
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Jan 06, 2004, 11:07:12 AM
For example, an effort was made to reunite the females in our outfit with their husbands that were serving in different units to celebrate Thanksgiving together. The result was that 3 females evacuated due to pregnancy following these "conjugal visits". Furthermore, one of the girl Sgts decided to cash in on her gender and amassed quite a sum of money in her off hours.

[p] The pregnancy rate is pretty high, from what I hear.  You just can't put guys and gals in such close contact for long time periods.  Nature happens.

[p]Can you imagine being in a Hummer on a cross country ride in the middle of the desert and it comes time for a potty break? There are no bushes, trees, rocks, just miles and miles of sand. The female has to go #2 and refuses to go behind a sand dune because there might be somebody watching from a distant dune.

[p]Exactly!  It brings back memories of my first case of poison ivy.  The campground outhouses were trashed, so I took myself and the girls behind this nice full bush, because I didn't want anyone to see us.  Guess what the bush was?????

[p]Even when I was 18, I don't think I could ever lift 125 lbs and I wasn't that tiny and delicate, in fact I was a tomboy.  Climbing 12 ft high chain link fences very quickly because the yard duty lady was after us, doing windsprints down alleys because the cops spotted us ditching school.  Stealth TP raids, carried out in complete silence and efficiency. Hiding in dumpsters, and crawling through storm drains.  It still wasn't Camp Lejuene, though ;-)

Title: Flame you?????
Post by: MKx2 on Jan 06, 2004, 11:51:32 AM
HARDLY!  I couldn't agree with you more!

A real disservice has been doen to society by all forms of media -- in the name of the almighty dollar.

Just MHO, though.
Title: RE: Interesting,
Post by: tryn2begooddad on Jan 06, 2004, 12:17:47 PM
SPG,

 I won't disagree that maybe women should not be in the forefront of the combat lines. But until the "equal rights" movement dies down I think this argument will continue to exist and the problems will continue to occur.
Title: Did you know...
Post by: Rakkasan on Jan 06, 2004, 01:23:26 PM
... that if a man were to get a sunburn so severe that he could not carry his pack he could be court martialed for "rendering himself unfit for duty" of course if a women gets pregnant not just on active duty, but on active duty in a combat zone she is evacuated and given full medical benefits and allowed to return to active duty after the baby is delivered (this occured with the daughter of a friend).

As I have said before the problem with women in this society is that unlike men there are no consequences for their actions. In grade school if a boy shoots off his mouth he will get the $#%& beat out of him after school, if a girl does the same excuses are made, "she's fiesty or isn't that cute how vocal she is?"  Now we have hordes of women who make false accusations of spousal abuse, child abuse and child sexual abuse  as a means of gaining a tactical advantage in child custody cases with no fear of punishment.

I better not get started......

Title: Brent asked the wrong question
Post by: Davy on Jan 06, 2004, 02:15:47 PM
In an effort to help with an understanding of why everything has to be so equal I am going to submit that Brent asked the wrong question.  The question today should be "Why shouldn't women be the only ones forced into involuntary servitude into armed combat ?".  

I think the best medicine for "our country" to cure all the social ills would be to have ALL feminazi combat troops by FORCE.  Don't you really think feminists have had it too good for too long ?  It would pretty much cut down the noise about women in the military and the effect it has on the real combat soldiers (as we know it) in the zone.  More over the tough talking women could have a dose of reality and then be able to walk the talk and talk the walk when it comes to matters of the draft, combat and such.  Us guys could just kick back and raise OUR kids after making up lies and getting all theatrical with the judge so he would wipe our tears away with their check books and we could do anything we wanted with OUR kids with the court's promotion and approval.  Sounds EQUAL to me !!!   Perhaps equality could spread to the civil/criminal courts, the schools, the workplace, the church, and the home.

MK...sweetie pie honey buns .. you know this 'polite' vent is not directed at you personally.  I applaud your request for an 'understanding'.  I have the same request and wonder what we are fighting for especially when thinking of 'The Wall' or sitting in the lobby of a VA hospital.

PS ..For those that know..the mindset and requirements of a combat soldier are a man thing and we should all respect and honor those that are lead there or find themselves there.
Title: Dearest Davy ...
Post by: MKx2 on Jan 06, 2004, 02:28:00 PM
may I merely add a heartfelt "AMEN!" to your post, as well as a sincere thank you for thinking of me and my VERY obvious nature of wearing my heart on my sleeve at all times.
Title: RE: Did you know...
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Jan 06, 2004, 04:23:14 PM
... that if a man were to get a sunburn so severe that he could not carry his pack he could be court martialed for "rendering himself unfit for duty"

[p]I thought they could nail you for damaging government property if you got a bad sunburn.

[p]Well, all we can do is hold our girls as accountable as their brothers for bad behavior.  You raise a little liar, and what you end up with is a psychopath who lies to cover up their inadequencies, and to get revenge.  I don't see why parents don't step in to discipline their adult kids when the lies start flying....unless they themselves are just as dysfunctional as their offspring.

That's ok, I have a few things to say about that subject myself...
Title: huh?
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Jan 06, 2004, 04:38:56 PM
"Why shouldn't women be the only ones forced into involuntary servitude into armed combat ?".

[p]The discussion, as far as I know is whether women should be made to register for selective service when they turn 18, like their male brethren.

[p]Our country's security is more important than one man's vengence.  You can't "force" anyone to serve their country.  That is called conscription.  think about it Davy...the last people you want to watch your back are feminazis.  Lord, I can't hit the broad side of a barn, but I'll sure do my best to watch your back.  I wouldn't trust a feminist as far as I can throw her/him/it.

[p]You're simply confusing women in combat with dealing with ex wives/husbands in family court.  There isn't really any comparison.

[p]Have a nice day....
Title: RE: Duh !!
Post by: Davy on Jan 06, 2004, 07:28:13 PM
Yike !  There's a huge difference between registering for Selective Service and being drafted.  Registration is when a young man is required by law to sign his name to a post card size document.  Being drafted is when you receive a letter that says "Greetings"  "Congratulations you have been selected (forced) to have your ass on a bus at 5:30 A.M. to report for induction into this man's Army (or Marines).  Then a DI fresh back from a 'skirmish' says all you swingin dicks get down and give me 20 or you don't look like a dying cockroach to me .. die cockroach die.  After a while you get to go kill other people you don't know or they will kill you for some unknown reason.  And yes I did say 'get' ... increases your chances of coming home.

I'm am NOT confused about women in combat and dealing with ex-wifes in family court ... two separate enemys and combat zones.

Title: Since there is no military draft
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Jan 06, 2004, 09:33:11 PM
The whole point of your post is.....?

Yes TI's and DI's are a different breed of cat.
Title: RE: Since there is no military draft
Post by: Davy on Jan 06, 2004, 10:16:31 PM
Since there is no military draft and the draft is the only reason for the existence of the "Selective Service" with laws requiring ONLY men to register then at least this would be a good time to require ONLY women to register so at least feminist could then have a warm and fuzzy feeling that they actually contribrute something to society instead of just simply being a burden on the society.

Drill Instructors are not a breed of cat they are God and your mother.

Why did you not know the difference between registering with the Selective Service and dying or being disabled in a combat zone ??

Do you think that true equality might have a chance of being realized if ONLY women would fight the wars the next 200 or so years and let men live in comfort and security ??
Title: RE: Since there is no military draft
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Jan 07, 2004, 01:24:20 AM
Draft and selective service are two different things.  If you bothered to read my original posts on this topic, you would find that I think that everyone should do a tour of duty when they're 18, in the capacity that bests suits the individual.

I'm sorry that the only comfort you've gotten from an adult was at the hands of a DI.  At best, they're burnouts.  They are not God.  Lemmy is God.

Do you think that true equality might have a chance of being realized if ONLY women would fight the wars the next 200 or so years and let men live in comfort and security ??

[p]Did you check out Rakkasan's post with the Fred on Everything links?   You know what?  I believe you're just trolling.  You haven't bothered to read a damn thing on this thread.
Title: RE: Since there is no military draft
Post by: Davy on Jan 07, 2004, 12:34:03 PM
Good for you !  You finally acknowledged that registration with the Selective Service and 'the draft' are two different things.

Can you come to terms that the 'draft is involuntary servitude' ??

MOST IMPORTANT !!  Can you come to terms with the underlying deep down thought that those that serve, professionally or involuntarily, may be doing so or did so in order that our government remains a democracy rather than a socialistic form of government where "everyone should do a tour of duty when they're 18, in the capacity that bests suits the individual" as you so graciously blundered your opinion.  
Title: I guess I didn't explain myself very well........
Post by: Kitty C. on Jan 07, 2004, 12:47:53 PM
Rak, I realize that I meant gay males as the distractees, not the distractors.  Like I said, I have nothing against homosexuality, whatever floats your boat I always say.  But I am most certainly hetero-, and I don't know how I would feel or react if some lesbian and I spent way too many hours in a fox hole.  And if I were male and had a gay man eyeing me, I'd DEFINITELY get uncomfortable.  JMO.......
Title: RE: Since there is no military draft
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Jan 07, 2004, 01:46:21 PM
Good for you ! You finally acknowledged that registration with the Selective Service and 'the draft' are two different things.

[p]Finally?  Everyone past a certain age knows the difference between Selective Service and the Draft.

Can you come to terms that the 'draft is involuntary servitude' ??

[p]Nope.  Can't say that I can.  If someone doesn't want to be drafted they can move to Canada.

MOST IMPORTANT !! Can you come to terms with the underlying deep down thought that those that serve, professionally or involuntarily, may be doing so or did so in order that our government remains a democracy rather than a socialistic form of government where "everyone should do a tour of duty when they're 18, in the capacity that bests suits the individual" as you so graciously blundered your opinion.

[p]First of all, the military has my respect in regards to their commitment to not only our country, but innocent civilians around the world.  Our military kicks ass and takes names!  

[p]Brent asked a question about whether or not females should be made to register for selective service when they turn 18.  I said yes. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.  I blundered?  How, pray tell?  Fair is fair and freedom isn't free.  This latest generation of selfish spoiled brats could use a little discipline, imo.  The school district where we live has a condition for graduation, stating that each student must volunteer at an approved location/activity for x amount of time in order to earn his/her HS diploma.  Socialism?

[p]I still say you didn't read the original post, or the replies....

Title: Regression
Post by: Davy on Jan 08, 2004, 01:08:23 PM
SPG

Brent clearly questioned why women should not be drafted and never referenced registration with the Selection Service.

Please try to focus on the subject matter and respond accordingly.

Since you do not think the draft is involuntary servitude then I would love for you to elaborate on what the draft means to you.  Here's a clue.  When the draft was in place many males (not females) 'voluntarily enlisted' to avoid the draft.  

I did not ask if you respected the military or about military prepardness so I'll restate the obvious in hopes of a response :

MOST IMPORTANT !! Can you come to terms with the underlying deep down thought that those that serve, professionally or involuntarily, may be doing so or did so in order that our government remains a democracy rather than a socialistic form of government where "everyone should do a tour of duty when they're 18, in the capacity that bests suits the individual" as you so graciously blundered your opinion.

Back to Brent's original question.  Why should females not be forced to serve involuntary in armed combat ??  And my question.  Why shouldn't ONLY females be forced in this day ... an ALL female combat force.

Again I encourage you to please try to focus on the subject matter and respond accordingly.

Thanks !!
Title: RE: Regression
Post by: sweetnsad on Jan 08, 2004, 01:38:34 PM
Good grief Davy, give it a rest already...JMO...
Title: RE: Regression
Post by: Davy on Jan 08, 2004, 02:03:05 PM
Sweetnsad ...

I couldn't agree more.

Just seeking a response focused on the subject matter.  

Do you have something to offer from Canada ??
Title: RE: Regression
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Jan 08, 2004, 02:25:43 PM
Oh gee, let me focus on a non event while our very livelyhoods and national borders are about to be pissed away.

I don't think that the draft is an especially good thing, however if it was REINSTATED, then I wouldn't have a problem with females being called up.

Clue?  No sh*t Sherlock.  Of course only men were called up for the draft.  The smart ones enlisted to avoid becoming cannon fodder.

I stand by my personal opinion that if men are going to be called up, or made to register for selective service, then so should females.  There are many opportunities for a productive life serving this country in the military.  Especially since the giant sucking sound of jobs being lost is beginning again.

Davy, an all female combat force just might work.  You know, that never crossed my mind!  KILLLLLL!.  You still refuse to read the previous posts fom guys who know.  Females certainly do have a place in the military, but for optimal results,  send  big men  into combat:-)
Title: RE: Regression
Post by: Davy on Jan 08, 2004, 04:04:01 PM
Whoa !  The smart ones ...guys who know.  The enemy did not care if you were RA (regular Army) or US (Uncle Sam;drafted).  US56600771 (2nd call Mar 69) did not have to read any other posts.  Draftee in the Pentagon - yes (special skill set), DAV -yes, accepted gov't job - nope.
CP - of course.  Primary, loving, nuturing, displinarian parent - always.

Why don't you listen instead of shooting off your mouth with your various twisted theories, manipulations and falsehoods concerning subjects you've only read about or think you know about.  You've been watching too much TV.  

BTW...those burned-out DI's you spoke of were primarily war-torned combat veterans (US/RA) marking their short-timer calanders teaching us how to survive.  They were God's vehicles and mothers.  To them you would have been a cockroach and they would have gladly planted a shinny steel toed booth right in your mouth.  

Is a combat zone anyplace for a female ?  Absolutely not !   Should females be drafted for combat duty ?  Absolutely but only if males ARE NOT drafted or serving in the same combat zone.    
Title: You aren't making any sense
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Jan 08, 2004, 09:05:33 PM
Mar '69?  Perhaps you don't remember why it was smart to enlist before you got drafted.  If you enlisted, you could more or less pick your preferred branch of service.  If you waited until you ended up drafted, you were basically cannon fodder.  

I'm sure you are a loving, nurturing, disciplinarian parent.  Why do you feel the need to mention that?  What does that have anything to do with making selective service gender equal?

Why don't you listen instead of shooting off your mouth with your various twisted theories, manipulations and falsehoods concerning subjects you've only read about or think you know about. You've been watching too much TV.

Don't you really mean, why won't I agree with you?  Sorry, I don't agree with you.  I've discussed this same issue with more reasonable people in the recent past, and I have to admit they know what they're talking about.  These guys recently served in Desert Storm where there were female soldiers among them.  No one said they were goldbricking, but they simply weren't able to keep up.  I'll take a reasonable person's word for it.  I also know a handful of Viet Nam vets.  The subject of women in combat never came up, however.  Well there was the time that Tom and his platoon were in some village and a young lady pushed a baby stroller full of explosives towards them.  Does that count?  

To them you would have been a cockroach and they would have gladly planted a shinny steel toed booth right in your mouth.

[p]Watch it with the projection,  there Davy boy.  Our TI's in the Air Force didn't wear steel toed boots.  In fact, looking back, they were pretty decent when they weren't pulling out their hair.  The worst thing that happened to me was that I caught the measles and spent an extra 2 weeks in basic.   Lol, I still remember the obstacle course.  Our TI was this black guy in his late 50's.  He almost cried watching us trip all over ourselves.  I did have an advantage over some of the girls in my squadron.  I was in marching band and baton twirling groups since I was 10...so I knew how to march with out being accused of having a pole up my ass.  I was also a tomboy.  Still, climbing up ropes left me and half the girls laying in a muddy ditch laughing.  No upper body strength :-(

How's your blood pressure, Davy?  Hanging in there?

Anyway, I spent my time in Supply, inventory control, where I couldn't do much damage )(

I figured that in this modern world, what with gyms and weightlifting for women, that they could do better than we could back in the day.  

Is a combat zone anyplace for a female ? Absolutely not ! Should females be drafted for combat duty ? Absolutely but only if males ARE NOT drafted or serving in the same combat zone.

Ummm Dr. Suess, clean up in aisle 6...

Title: Sorry, but I have to post this ...
Post by: MKx2 on Jan 08, 2004, 10:10:38 PM
[em]Perhaps you don't remember why it was smart to enlist before you got drafted. If you enlisted, you could more or less pick your preferred branch of service. If you waited until you ended up drafted, you were basically cannon fodder.[/em]

*********

Having been at the "right" age when all this was going on ... enlisting only gave you perhaps the choice of service, but certainly not any guarantee of not becoming "cannon fodder" ... now that's a rather distasteful term SPG.  

Sorry, but I do find that term rather offensive - I lost a lot of good friends to that conflict - including my first husband.  We were just kids when we married - he was already in the Army with a supposed "shining career" ahead of him, as an voluntary enlistee with exceptionally high scores on everything.  That is until they decided to deploy him there in December of '67, six months after we married.  He was killed during the Tet Offensive of January '68.

Cannon fodder indeed ... him and so very many others.
Title: Don't be sorry
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Jan 08, 2004, 10:50:50 PM
It is distasteful, and I apologize to you.  I tend to get a little bent out of shape when arguing with a certain poster.  

Granted, I was in grade school during the Viet Nam war, however I've talked with vets over the years who used that term themselves.  They're the ones who either were relieved that they enlisted in the Navy, or regretted getting drafted into the Army.  

The first vet I met was when I was still in HS.  He was on permanent disability due to a metal plate in his head.  His buddy stepped on a land mine, and he got hit in the head with fragments.  He was cool, just wanted to talk, so my friends and I hung out with him and smoked pot.  There were a couple of guys that were friends of my ex's.  One of them was the one who joined the Navy.  The other was drafted into the Army, got through it by the skin of his teeth to be spit on when he got home.  Nice.  My best friend from HS married a man who was a fighter pilot...and old enough to be her daddy.  She was his third wife.  She couldn't deal with the flashbacks, so she divorced him.  No kids.

The most recent vet I've met was a neighbor of my daughter's.  He finally got a settlement from the VA.  Apparently one of his testicles was shot off, and I personally think he was sprayed with Agent Orange.  Whew.  He recently moved to another state.  He can tell some stories.

These guys used the term cannon fodder because of the total lack of leadership for the most part over there.  I'm trying to be politically correct, but from what's been said, the majority of commanding officers didn't know their rear ends from a hand grenade.  They put the soldiers under their command in danger....hence cannon fodder :-(

I didn't mean to bring back bad memories for you, and I'm sorry for that.  Your husband was an honorable man.
Title: RE: Don't be sorry
Post by: MKx2 on Jan 09, 2004, 05:20:30 AM
One thing that most don't seem to "get" about this entire conflict ...

(Understand I'm not in agreement with the situation that took place over there) ... we sent out young men in droves and they were getting killed off in droves.  Many of the CO's over there were but boys with little to no combat experience.  IMVHO ... it wasn't the fault of many of the COs that their men were put in danger.  They had no battle training, many had field promotions, and they were fighting an enemy with little experience of how they operated ... ugly ugly ugly.

Still ... cannon fodder is a term used by those who survived.  While I understand their sheer disgust and hatred at what our government did, I'm sure those who were the "fodder-ees," now with no voice, would object to their counterparts use of the term.

Hey SPG, it's okay - you meant me no harm ... but maybe the next time you talk to one of our Vets if the term comes up, you'll remember me and think of our men in a more honorable term.   Every single on of our Veterans deserves that.
Title: RE: Regression
Post by: sweetnsad on Jan 09, 2004, 06:53:07 AM
"Do you have something to offer from Canada?"

Now, how am I supposed to take that?  Are you being sarcastic?

To be perfectly honest Davy, no, I don't have anything to offer from Canada...I do not have much knowledge on "drafting" and so forth seeing as I'm only 29...My only real "adult" experience on war is the one that is being fought now in Iraq...and yes, I think women should be drafted as well as men.  But that's JMO.

I read the above posters and I just wanted to comment that it seems to be getting WAY off topic...Stick to the subject at hand, that's all.
Title: RE: I'm curious......why shouldn't women be drafted too?
Post by: Wishing on Jan 09, 2004, 08:23:23 AM
Welcome to SPARC, the Separated Parenting Access & Resource Center.

"SPARC's goal is to ensure that children of divorce continue to have meaningful relationships with both parents, regardless of marital status. We advocate on behalf all non-custodial parents (especially fathers) to ensure they get equitable treatment in court and continued access to their children. In addition, we work to promote gender equality in Divorce and Custody issues".

Partially fearing the wrath that may come following my post, I will proceed regardless. This site is a wonderful resource. Your post, however, doesn't appear to address SPARC's goal or address Father's Issues under this section.

You do provide helpful ideas and direction for people in need of help, but this post belongs elsewhere in my opinion. My only goal with my response is try and keep the goals and assistance of this site on target and not lose any passers by who are in need.
Title: RE: I'm curious......why shouldn't women be drafted too?
Post by: Brent on Jan 09, 2004, 08:33:58 AM
>Partially fearing the wrath that may come following my post, I
>will proceed regardless. This site is a wonderful resource.
>Your post, however, doesn't appear to address SPARC's goal or
>address Father's Issues under this section.

I'm all out of wrath. ;)

Maybe I should have posted this on the General Issues board, but I'd say it falls under #3 below:


Mission Goals
The SPARC Web Site is a 501(c)(3) Non-profit organization with one primary goal, which is to ensure that children of divorce have access to both parents, regardless of marital status.

To accomplish this, we have several specific secondary goals, which include:

[ol][li]assisting non-custodial parents (especially fathers) in obtaining fair and equitable custody arrangements;

[li]disseminating information on Parenting Evaluations (also called Custody Evaluations);

[li]raising awareness of issues that fathers and non-custodial parents face.[/ol]

If the Draft isn't a Men's issue, what is?


>You do provide helpful ideas and direction for people in need
>of help, but this post belongs elsewhere in my opinion.


Like I said, perhaps I should have posted it on the General Issues board, but it didn't seem to fit there. I'm open to suggestions, though. Where would you put it?



>My only goal with my response is try and keep the goals and
>assistance of this site on target and not lose any passers by
>who are in need.

I understand, and I'm not arguing with you. I just didn't know what other board was more suited to the content of the article.
Title: RE: I'm curious......why shouldn't women be drafted too?
Post by: MKx2 on Jan 09, 2004, 08:42:23 AM
Personally I happen to think this IS a Father's issue, since it is men in general, fathers and sons, who are affected by this.

JMO though.
Title: RE: I'm curious......why shouldn't women be drafted too?
Post by: Wishing on Jan 09, 2004, 09:16:43 AM
In response to Brent and Mk2x, I don't feel it's an issue for this Board. Certainly it is an issue for discussion, but not on SPARC. I don't see the purpose on the post with respect to this site.

This site seems to be filling up with alot of issues and backtalk which doesn't seem to fit the purpose of SPARC. I'm not upset about this or Brent's post, but to me at least, the support and information this site has provided seems to be getting diverted. This site helped me out when I was going through the bleeding stage of my divorce and forced visitation trauma. I just hope this place keeps it's direction so to help the many who need it.

I will refrain from further replies as it would defeat my point entirely.
Title: RE: I have an idea...........
Post by: Indigo Mom on Jan 09, 2004, 10:12:01 AM
Why don't you sit down and write a list of topics we're "allowed" to post about and respond to.  That way, we won't offend people like you who come here.

BTW...what's your story?  I don't recall reading anything custody related written by you...but I could have missed it.
Title: Easy there.......
Post by: Brent on Jan 09, 2004, 10:49:23 AM
I understand what she's saying, and she was polite in her post. I don't think she was trying to make trouble.

My personal take is that the "Fathers Issues" board is open to anything that could be considered a father-related topic. She was saying she didn't see the connection. To me, the Draft is definitely a "fathers issue", but it's not directly divorce related....so I can see where she might not think it's relevant here. I just don't know where else it would go.

I do feel it is an issue of interest to fathers, since they're the only draftable parents, and I thought it might generate some interesting discussion. I think a lot of people think that the board is meant only for divorce related topics, which isn't really the case.
Title: RE: Easy there.......
Post by: Indigo Mom on Jan 09, 2004, 11:05:09 AM
-----I understand what she's saying, and she was polite in her post. I don't think she was trying to make trouble. -----

I understand too, Brent.  I also understand the 10 other people in that thread who believe the topic is important.  It's a big thread...obviously those in it find it interesting/important enough to CONTINUE posting in it.  They don't need to be reminded that they're posting in the wrong place.  I think the webdude is the one with the "final say" and I don't think he has a problem with it.  

-----My personal take is that the "Fathers Issues" board is open to anything that could be considered a father-related topic. -----

I agree.  I also know how it feels to be in the middle of Hell. (custody) when you're there, you like to be around other people who've BTDT.  Message boards could NEVER stick to the specific topic because we're humans.  We like to discuss things.  Yes, it's the "fathers issues" board, but to be honest, I wouldn't get mad if someone posted about their grandmother dying.  I've seen it a few times where someone has posted here "because it's the quickets moving board".  You're NEVER going to get "just" fathers issues here.

-----To me, the Draft is definitely a "fathers issue", -----

Yes, I agree.  I also think it's a "human being" issue...one which is clearly important for others to discuss.  

-----so I can see where she might not think it's relevant here. I just don't know where else it would go. -----

IMO...you put it in the right place.  Look at the thread, Mr. B...look how long it's getting!  You couldn't have put it in a better place.

-----I do feel it is an issue of interest to fathers, since they're the only draftable parents, and I thought it might generate some interesting discussion. I think a lot of people think that the board is meant only for divorce related topics, which isn't really the case.-----

It's of interest to quite a few people as you can see.  I find the discussion VERY interesting, and have read each post.  I don't know a whole lot about the subject, so this one I'm staying out of.  But...it's good discussion.  

This board serves it's purpose.  So do all the others.  Even with all the stupid shit posted, with all the jokes, the craziness...this is still the best site for NCP's.  (imo...which clearly doesn't matter)



Title: RE: Regression
Post by: Davy on Jan 09, 2004, 11:59:37 AM

I agree that the posts were becoming convulted as is usual with the other poster.  If you had experienced 'the draft' along with the dreadful combat and all of it's social ills you would probably agree that my posts were pretty much on target and I was addressing the issues softly.

The reference to Canada resulted from the chilling anti-American  remark from the other poster to 'move to Canada'  in a response to whether or not a draft is merely 'involuntary servitude'.  Not only did that smart-ass remark not respond to the issue it was also VERY disrespectful to all that died, left disabled or served along with all their loved ones in any war .... it's a long list of those impacted.

BTW I have a car bought from some long time friends (from Canada).
The car has a DoD parking sticker from the Naval Academy that I guaranteed to them would not be removed.  Their son is your age and a Marine captain pilot and has flown in Iraq.
Title: RE: I'm curious......why shouldn't women be drafted too?
Post by: VeronicaGia on Jan 09, 2004, 12:59:51 PM
I meant to reply to this the other day, but got bogged down in the responses.

First, I don't think anyone should have to sign up for any draft.  I don't think 18 year old males or femals should have to sign up for any type of military.  And, call me old fashioned, but I don't think women should be in combat (actually, I'd like to see a world without combat, but apparently that's not possible).  However, since women are eligible for the military, they need to take equal responsibility.  Personally, I think it should be mandatory that women prove they are on birth control during their military run.  Pregnancy is no excuse....what's fair is fair....yea, right.
Title: Insight
Post by: Davy on Jan 09, 2004, 01:09:43 PM
MK...it is hard to speak of these things and I fondly appreciate your sensitivity and insights.  

About the offensive terms including the 'move to Canada' to avoid the draft.  It has been my experience that Nam vets, like their WWII counterparts, seldom if every speak of their combat experiences because it is "unspeakable" and "undescribeable"....the sights, the sounds, the smell......  Anyway, I have heard combat vets use offensive terms (a few times) mostly out of pure frustation and anger.  Here is my very strong opinion...they can use those terms because they EARNED the right to do so and they mean no disrespect to their fallen comrades.  
I think it to be the upmost of disrespect toward the soldier and his loved ones for ANYBODY else to use those terms.  As a wife, mother, sister or brother you have that right !  It is one of those unwritten rules of a civilized society.  

I still see their faces ...their laughter ....  

It is alarming to hear the voices of those that did not experience "the
 draft and war" as we knew it.  What social engineering !!!!  
Title: RE: Regression
Post by: sweetnsad on Jan 09, 2004, 01:52:00 PM
Well, just so you know, I am not anti-American...I applaud America's efforts to defend their's and our freedom.  I have quite a few relatives in the states and have visited there once....It's an impressive country.

I wish there was more that our Canadian troops could do...we are a small bunch, but mighty!  

And as I've said before, I'm young and not familiar with alot of the drafting procedures and war, but I commend all the men and women that have fought and either lived or died for us.
Title: RE: Insight
Post by: MKx2 on Jan 09, 2004, 02:07:05 PM
Davy, I have to agree with you on that point - if you didn't live it, it is exceptionally difficult to relate in the same manner as those who DID live it.  Certainly we can "imagine" what it would have been like, but to live the emotions, the fear, the anger ... no one knows until they've been there, experienced the loss, felt the pain and anger of a good friend.

It took me a long time to understand why my Dad wouldn't speak of his war experiences (Master Sargeant, US Army, Paratrooper [OSS]).  It took me living through my experiences to understand it.

Regardless of the government wrongs in any of these combat zones, my heartfelt thanks will always be with our men and women in the Armed Services.
Title: RE: Insight(please ignore this MK)
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Jan 09, 2004, 02:17:50 PM
About the offensive terms including the 'move to Canada' to avoid the draft.

[p]I find it very offensive that some fled to Canada to avoid the draft.  I find the act of running for the border while your friends and family do their duty, the very definition of offensive.  the most offensive example is Bill Clinton.  He didn't run to Canada, he just went AWOL.  And he got away with it.  Sweet.  Have any pissy comments about that?

[p]Guess what Davy, there are vets who want to let it out.  Usually after a sixpack or a couple of joints.  No, I haven't smoked pot in years.  With my ex's friends, I believe they got angry while we were watching a documentary on tv and let it rip.  I remember sitting there going, damn...One guy said how he went into a liquor store in a CA community and saw a Viet Cong flag decorating a wall.  He's lucky he wasn't arrested.  Years later and they still hurt.  I take that seriously.

[p]I meant no disrespect, and you know it Davy.  If I were a male you wouldn't even make an issue over my comments.  Another one of the unwritten rules of society, is to hide your prejudice and hatred, and either ignore or address the issues at hand....regardless of the posters sex, race, creed, or academic credentials.  Can you do that?

PS: MK wanted to let me know that what I said hurt her.  I apologized and I meant it.  You hijacked our conversation to take a dig at me.  I find that extremely offensive, not only to me but MK.
Title: RE: Reality check time
Post by: Davy on Jan 09, 2004, 08:15:16 PM
As usual your post was filled with lies, manipulations, attempts at creating division, false accussations, OT matters, harrazzing, provoking, etc, etc etc.

You still refuse to consider 'the draft' as involuntary servitude even though you were not there and were a little little girl still trying to learn the alphabet at the time.  

Now you say you find it very offensive that some fled to Canada to avoid the draft.  It is somewhat inconceivable among decent people for anyone to make the comment in the first place and then quickly reverse yourself in such a short time frame.

"Clinton" ... why on earth bring forth such a name ...in matters resulting in many deaths and disabilities, emotional pain and suffering to so many.

And you say there are vets that want to get it out usually after a six pack and / or a joint... please please don't reguritate the made-for-TV version. Try to understand all the ramifications of those years the draft was in place.  You may get a gimpse if you visited a military or VA  hospital today then muliplied by thousands.  Go visit a mother or father whose son was drafted and never returned then go find somebody that filled out a postcard but was never called.  You may be very surprised !!

And then you throw in the following :
"I meant no disrespect, and you know it Davy. If I were a male you wouldn't even make an issue over my comments. Another one of the unwritten rules of society, is to hide your prejudice and hatred, and either ignore or address the issues at hand....regardless of the posters sex, race, creed, or academic credentials. Can you do that? "

SPG..you have no standing to define me or anyone else.  I certainly can and do stand on my own merits alongside any de-merits most of which I am proud.  I certainly do not have to justify myself but just last night I was in the home of an ex-Marine with his Chinese wife trying to get him to put on his chaps and do his gay thing sitting next to one of my best black friends and across the table from his Hispanic wife.  On the other side of me was my white OBGYN (reserve colonel) and his white wife.
The colonel does a great impression of oatmeal with his face.  My sons are both bilinqual and I have two black grand children.  At least two present had not graduated from high school.  My friends are pretty much equally divided between female and males.  Since you think you know so much would you like to take a wild ass guess at my sex, race, creed or academic credentials.  I've had no sex change operations (and never will) so you might get one right.  Otherwise, I have friends in  very low places with high egoes and very high places with very low egoes...just like me on any given day.

I'm noticed you responded positively to a female when advised of her hurt of losing her husband.

Go ahead and continue to make a fool of yourself but try hard to get over your penis envy.
Title: I am so not in the mood for your crap
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Jan 09, 2004, 08:51:39 PM
Get help.

I will address the penis envy comment, though.  I like penises, especially when it's attached to my bf.
Title: RE: I'm curious......why shouldn't women be drafted too?
Post by: Peanutsdad on Jan 09, 2004, 09:21:21 PM
I have refrained from really replying in this thread prior to now,, with the exception waaaaay at the top in response.

First of all, I see a lot of people fel very strongly one way or the other about this.

How many of you have been in combat? How many of you have had to bag and tag some of the finest men you will ever know in your life?

How many have had to fire a weapon at another human being? and then live with it afterwards?

How many of you have been sent to the hospital following being shot by "force or forces unknown"?

From most of the replies,, I can see, not very many. Yes you are entitled to your opinion, BUT forming an opinion without knowledge is a very dangerous thing to do. It leads to the sort of things we have mesmerized young men with thru out human history. That there is Glory and Honor to be had in war. There isnt. It's just death and dying. Some of the most horrible painful wounds being inflicted and being endured. Grown men lying in the dirt screaming for someone to make it stop, shittin thier own pants .

THAT is what the draft, selective service, war ect is all about. Who can anyone advocate sending any human being into that except by the most dire need?

I dont want my children to ever learn the lessons war teaches. I dont want any young man OR woman to learn it either.

Do I think ALL 18 yr olds should have to register for the selective service? No, so long as manpower needs are met by volunteers.

JMHO.
Title: RE: I'm curious......why shouldn't women be drafted too?
Post by: KND on Jan 09, 2004, 10:32:25 PM
I'm guessing you mean selective service, and I don't see any reason why they (we) shouldn't be required to register. After all, gender equality should apply to the federal government too.

Then again, we don't get to run the world (just yet anyways!)

KND
Title: You have the honor of the best post on this thread.
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Jan 09, 2004, 10:35:27 PM
Thank you!
Title: RE: Your ignorant crap..not mine
Post by: Davy on Jan 10, 2004, 12:18:01 AM
Just what I thought..the truth hurts.

Not a comment .... a fact.  

I surmised your likes but you did not finish the sentence ... knees...in front of my .....

You have shown yourself to be a true sicko...not only a waste of key strokes but unworthy of rational intelligent communication.

No more posts.
Title: RE: You have the honor of the best post on this thread.
Post by: Peanutsdad on Jan 10, 2004, 06:19:31 AM
I dont want honor SPG, nor recognition, nor any of the damn medals my country hung on my chest.

I want to not have to face my memories, I want to be able to undo some of the things I saw and did in service to my country. I want my friends lives back. None of you can give me those things, nor can our great country. So dont be so quick to jump on the lets send everyone to fight bandwagon.  I fight back now in the only way I can,, I save lives now, I work in medicine to stop this kind of insanity.

All those asking about whether its fair to only draft men, no, it isnt. To be honest tho, do you really want an entire generation of men AND women to go off to fight? There are physiological AND psychological differences between men and women. Regardless of the equal rights movement, we as genders are different.

Realizing what kind of issues it can bestow on the poor lucky bastages that go?

When the memories come back so strongly that you can FEEL it and SMELL it all again...ask a vet how he remembers if he smells avgas or jp4. Are these the things you all would like to see both parents of children to remember?

You look at your children and your heart just hammers away at the thought of them having to repeat your lessons in some foriegn land,, every fiber of your being screams out against that happening.


Looking at all the posts,, keep in mind folks,, be careful what you ask for,, you just might get.


Thank you SPG.


God bless all.
Title: RE: You have the honor of the best post on this thread.
Post by: sweetnsad on Jan 10, 2004, 12:20:00 PM
You are absolutely right PD...and yes, it's obvious to see that 95% of the above posts are entirely opinion, not based on any actual experience with war...
I made myself clear on that point, that I am only 29 and have NO knowledge of war and it's devastating effects.   I neither know about it nor do I wish to know how it affects a family and loved ones.  I'm sorry for all those families that HAVE been affected by war.  It's a damn shame that young people like myself can never truly realize how lucky we are.
God Bless you as well.
Title: RE: You have the honor of the best post on this thread.
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Jan 10, 2004, 12:51:23 PM
I should have perhaps rephrased my reply to you.  I only meant to agree with you 100%.

My dad served in France during WWII, in communications.  He never said a lot about the experience while I was growing up, but when I had my first baby, he talked about it one day.  I guess having a baby meant I was old enough to hear about our French "allies".  He would never talk about what he saw in Germany.

In a perfect world, no one would have to go to war.  There wouldn't be Saddam Hussein feeding people into woodchippers, Kim Il Jong starving North Korea to death, Palestinians blowing themselves and scores of Israelis to smithereens.  The African continent wouldn't be burdened by the likes of Charles Taylor, Moammar Qaddafi, or the Mandelas.

I used to subscribe to a strict isolationist view regarding the rest of the world.  I voted for Pat Buchanan.  One day I had a conversation with someone who pointed out the God has blessed America, and we have a responsibility to help people who are oppressed.  I wish we could do it without anyone getting shot.

I still believe that if men have to register for selective services, then so should women...in the interests of fairness and diversity.  Hey, think about it.  The best ones could turn that 2 yr tour into a job with law enforcement or border patrol (we're really shorthanded there).  Of course we can count on the socialist school system to sandbag the whole thing.

Take care and have a good day, PD :-)
Title: Okay, let's play
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Jan 10, 2004, 02:36:14 PM
Well yesterday is gone, and I'm now in the mood to deal with you.

As usual your post was filled with lies, manipulations, attempts at creating division, false accussations, OT matters, harrazzing, provoking, etc, etc etc.

[p]You still refuse to consider 'the draft' as involuntary servitude even though you were not there and were a little little girl still trying to learn the alphabet at the time.

[p]Now you say you find it very offensive that some fled to Canada to avoid the draft. It is somewhat inconceivable among decent people for anyone to make the comment in the first place and then quickly reverse yourself in such a short time frame.

[p]"Clinton" ... why on earth bring forth such a name ...in matters resulting in many deaths and disabilities, emotional pain and suffering to so many.


[p]According to you I should be a politician.  

[p]  Of course I refuse to consider "the draft" as involuntary servitude.  I don't think it's cool that rich white kids got to somehow buy their way out of it, however.  This little girl was already winning spelling bees in parochial school in '69. I learned the alphabet in 1st grade.

[p]Yes, I do find it offensive that some folks fled to Canada, don't you?  I reversed myself?  How did I do that?  Bill Clinton simply went AWOL, but I guess that's ok.  He's too bleepin' precious to get his ass shot off for Uncle Sam.  Btw, Clinton IS responsible for matters resulting in many deaths, disabilities, emotional  pain and suffering.  Ron Brown and Vince Foster ring a bell?  How about Juanita Broderick?

[p]And you say there are vets that want to get it out usually after a six pack and / or a joint... please please don't reguritate the made-for-TV version. Try to understand all the ramifications of those years the draft was in place. You may get a gimpse if you visited a military or VA hospital today then muliplied by thousands. Go visit a mother or father whose son was drafted and never returned then go find somebody that filled out a postcard but was never called. You may be very surprised !!

[p]Yes I do say that there are vets who want to get things off their chests.  Lots of people do.  Pot and alcohol tends to loosen the tongue.  Yes Davy, you're too pure for that.  Yeah you're special.  I just don't want to mention a personal loss when I'm posting to an asshole, but I'm very well aware of losing loved ones.

[p]And then you throw in the following :
"I meant no disrespect, and you know it Davy. If I were a male you wouldn't even make an issue over my comments. Another one of the unwritten rules of society, is to hide your prejudice and hatred, and either ignore or address the issues at hand....regardless of the posters sex, race, creed, or academic credentials. Can you do that? "

[p]..you have no standing to define me or anyone else. I certainly can and do stand on my own merits alongside any de-merits most of which I am proud. I certainly do not have to justify myself but just last night I was in the home of an ex-Marine with his Chinese wife trying to get him to put on his chaps and do his gay thing sitting next to one of my best black friends and across the table from his Hispanic wife. On the other side of me was my white OBGYN (reserve colonel) and his white wife.
[p]The Colonel does a great impression of oatmeal with his face. My sons are both bilinqual and I have two black grand children. At least two present had not graduated from high school. My friends are pretty much equally divided between female and males. Since you think you know so much would you like to take a wild ass guess at my sex, race, creed or academic credentials. I've had no sex change operations (and never will) so you might get one right. Otherwise, I have friends in very low places with high egoes and very high places with very low egoes...just like me on any given day.


[p]Well I guess you can't.  Thanks for posting about your lively personal life, though.  Tell me, is this the same Colonel who had his strawberries stolen from him, or maybe he's the one who loves the smell of napalm in the morning.  Is the Colonel's oatmeal impression before or after cocktails?  I'm frankly surprised that you have friends, but then again I'm picky about who I hang around with.

I surmised your likes but you did not finish the sentence ... knees...in front of my .....

[p]You have shown yourself to be a true sicko...not only a waste of key strokes but unworthy of rational intelligent communication.

[p]Of course your referrence to me giving my bf fellatio makes you one of the greatest communicators on the internet.  Not to mention one of the most intelligent men online.  So charming, too....

[p]No more posts may ass.  You're so bitter and twisted you won't leave it alone.  Isn't it time for your buddy to get his chaps on so you all can play Lone Ranger?  Do you play the horse or Tonto?
Title: RE: You have the honor of the best post on this thread.
Post by: Peanutsdad on Jan 10, 2004, 04:30:50 PM
 SPG, please dont think Im crackin on you,, I most certainly am not.

England once thought they had a "duty" to "save" the rest of the world, so did France, as did Spain.

All the major civilized countries at one time or another had decided they knew what was best for others, as America does now. The problem with this is there are ALWAYS those in power that see that kind of atitude as an opportunity and they capitalolize on it, usually to the detriment of others. Young people are fed the honor and duty BS line, and off they go.

The end result is typically, many young people dead, the survivors scarred for life, in more ways than one, and a few get rich and powerful.

Ever hear,, "If I knew then what I know now"......

I think it applies to this topic very well. I advise any 18 yr old,, burn that damn card. Dont go,, let the old fekkers that give the orders go and fight,, hell its THEIR fight anyhow.

Should groups known or unknown make war on our shores( 9-11), ASK for volunteers, hunt the responsible parties down, and exterminate them.

Make it mandatory? For all? No,, I say it now and a thousand times,, NO. In answer to the topic at hand, IF it is to be mandatory, make it so for all. Then perhaps we get some good use out of NOW,, once they see what it all about, perhaps they would turn their political aims to abolishing such an abomination.

"War is the extension of politics when diplomacy has failed"....how many polisci grads do we have? I know you have heard this. This simple statement does not even come close to awful truth of war.

For years, I would not discuss this, until I decided I was not going to become my father. I remember when I came home for convelesence leave after being released from the hospital,, my father looked at me and with a almost sad smile, he said " Now you understand". That is the most he has ever said about his time in the service.
Title: RE: You have the honor of the best post on this thread.
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Jan 11, 2004, 12:27:30 PM
I don't think you're cracking on me, PD.  It's just you and I think a little differently on the subject, with good reason on your part.

Someone, and I can't remember who, said all we've ever asked for was enough ground to bury our dead.  This was in response to the screaming about American "imperialism".  That's the difference between us, England, Spain, and France.  Hahaha, France.  I'm probably wrong, but I will attribute this to Gen. Patton who supposedly said, " I'd rather have the Germans in front of me, than the French behind me".  The French haven't done anything.  Google up French military victories.  England and Spain were into grabbing as much territory for themselves.  Ohhh waiiit.  Guess who bailed on VietNam, before we arrived to save their butts?  The @#$$%#French...again.

I think we should stick to a volunteer force, but an idea would be for every elible 18 yr old citizen to sign up for a couple of years and be trained.  After the 2 yrs are up, the military could "invite" the best to reinlist.  These troops shouldn't be put in combat situations after a measly 6 weeks of boot camp.  This society doesn't exactly breed discipline or respect for authority, imo that is crucial for an army.  You this might be a good way to take care of our own young citizens.  Make it so that they get priority over "guest workers"(formerly known as illegals) for any job when they complete their 2 years.  They can get priority for college spots, etc.  We need to worry about our kids if this guest worker thing passes.  Heck, we need to worry about our jobs.

You don't want to go with hired guns, though.  Mercenaries have been known to be effective, but we don't want America associated with some of those people.  I don't think the draft is a good idea.  It's not fair, for one thing.  Too many rich kids got around it, sending the poor kids overseas.  

I've done a little reading on Viet Nam, and imo it was a huge mistake for us to go over there.  I was more into WWII and Czarist Russia growing up.

What war did your dad serve in?  
Title: RE: You have the honor of the best post on this thread.
Post by: Peanutsdad on Jan 11, 2004, 05:11:25 PM
Dad served in Korea and 2 tours in 'Nam.

LOL, as far as french expansionism,, go back further in history....there you find the french in competition with primarily the british for land grabs. But,, no doubt about it,, they could'nt organize a gang a horny sailors in a whorehouse.


As far as the outline of military service you outline,, THAT I could see and in fact is similar to the Isreali service.
Title: RE: You have the honor of the best post on this thread.
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Jan 12, 2004, 09:10:27 PM
My former father in law served in Korea.  I know next to nothing about Korea.  I became interested in WWII because that's when my dad served.  He was 35 and 4F because of defective arches in his feet.  Being a first generation American, my dad wanted to give back to his country.  A sargent at an Army recruitment center enlisted him despite his age and feet. Lol, that sounds funny!  I don't know how my dad got through boot camp, but he ended up in France and Europe.  I still have "beer chits" from Switzerland and Germany, among other things.  I didn't find this stuff until my dad passed away in '96 at age 87 from cancer.  He was 50 when I came along.  We watched World at War, and Victory at Sea every Sunday afternoon.  

This might go towards explaining why I tend to get belligerent when the hippies stand on their hind legs and bark.

German army joke:  French tanks have 13 gears.  One forward, and 12 reverse.

In light of the new "guest worker program", I think that we need to protect our citizens against the coming onslaught.  We are not obligated to pay for our kids college expenses, but by God we can make sure they have employment opportunites.  Since the government is pissing away all our tax dollars on stupid programs, let's educate our kids and teach them some responsibility with tax dollars.  Yeah right...
Title: RE: I'm curious......why shouldn't women be drafted too?
Post by: georgeburns on Apr 12, 2004, 08:13:24 PM
What kind of wussy are you?
Title: RE: I'm curious......why shouldn't women be drafted too?
Post by: Peanutsdad on Apr 12, 2004, 08:57:32 PM
Hey nitwit,,

Look at the dates on this thread. I THINK its been replied unto the thread grave..look for a fresher corpse to pounce on.
Title: They should be.
Post by: lucky on Apr 13, 2004, 05:13:54 AM
eom
Title: RE: I'm curious......why shouldn't women be drafted too?
Post by: Brent on Apr 13, 2004, 07:11:52 AM
George is one of these sad little cranks that has trouble with complex concepts like dates. As evidenced by his comment, he has very little of value to say.

Hey george- wasn't it soooooo funny the way your hero president Bush was making jokes about not finding any WMDs? Did you see that?

I bet it was a real hoot to the 500+ dead American soldiers andf their families. Why, I'm still laughing! Clearly it was worth killing over 500 Americans so good old George Bush could make jokes at your expense.

And since you worship George Bush junior so much, ask yourself this: Would George Bush junior be president if his father hadn't?

lololol, yeah, I didn't think so either.