SPARC Forums

Main Forums => Father's Issues => Topic started by: proudofmyboys on Jun 12, 2008, 11:25:18 AM

Title: Right of first refusal clarification
Post by: proudofmyboys on Jun 12, 2008, 11:25:18 AM
Hello and thanks for reading/replying to this post.

I have the right of first refusal written in the parenting plan and my ex-wife left for a week for her honeymoon. She told me she wasn't leaving until Sunday evening and I found out from my 8 yr old that she left Sunday morning. So her parents kept them all day without telling me. They are staying in my ex-wife's house and are being cared for by the g-ma.

Question #1: I know she was obligated to notify me so that I get first dibs on the boys, but were the grand parents obligated as well? They said that they didn't have to.

So the boys and I were shafted out of a day.

In addition, the grand parents say that I have no right to come over every evening this week because they are caring for my boys. Last night they said they already had "plans" and that I couldn't come get them. I said they needed to notify me first.

Question #2: Do I have the right to go get the boys every evening after work since my ex is out of town and return them for the night?

My ex told me that while she was gone that the parenting plan would not change. I submit that I should be able to keep them all week if I didn't work during the day.

What are your thoughts?

Title: RE: Right of first refusal clarification
Post by: ocean on Jun 12, 2008, 12:18:43 PM
You should have them for the whole week and not return them until she comes back. When is the first day you have them in your parenting plan usually? Go get them the first time and them keep them for the rest of the week. Are you able to bring them to school or have daycare while you work? If you want them for the week, then it is for the full week, not using the grandparents for babysitting.

Does your ex have a cell phone that you can contact her? If not I would call the grandparents and tell them she needs to call you ASAP and that you will file in court if you do not have your normal parenting time...
Title: RE: Right of first refusal clarification
Post by: MixedBag on Jun 12, 2008, 12:24:35 PM
Is it defined in more details in your order?

I agree that you should pick up the kids and take them back when mom returns particularly since she's gone for a week.

I'm not even sure that whether or not you work during the day plays into this.

Title: RE: Right of first refusal clarification
Post by: proudofmyboys on Jun 12, 2008, 12:38:10 PM
Well I work during the day so I'm fine with them staying with g-ma but I believe that they need to give them up to me as soon as I get there after work and keep them until it's time for them to get ready for bed.

Isn't that correct?

Since she just got remarried this would apply to her new husband as well I think.
Title: RE: Right of first refusal clarification
Post by: ocean on Jun 13, 2008, 05:28:31 AM
no, you get them for the week..not choose when grandparents babysit (unless you asked grandparents and that was the arrangement). You should have them at your house for the whole week and make arrangements for when you are at work.
Title: I had it written in mine that if the parent, grandparents, aunts or uncles
Post by: tigger on Jun 13, 2008, 08:32:56 AM
of the kids weren't available then the other parent gets right of first refusal.  Stepparents were to be included in the list 6 months after the divorce was final.  (He married two weeks later.)

Unless she wrote to you to count that week as a vacation week with the grandparents, then I'd say the court order is in effect.
Title: RE: I had it written in mine that if the parent, grandparents, aunts or uncles
Post by: Davy on Jun 13, 2008, 09:32:14 AM
Sick, sick, sick, sick. The  'right of first refusal' concept provides for combatting these non entities and any atty, court, or jurisdiction that allows such artricious behavior should be disbarred for bias and prejudice.
Title: My ex agreed to it. And there was nothing sick about it though
Post by: tigger on Jun 14, 2008, 09:32:53 PM
you are entitled to your opinion, as misguided as it may be.  He wanted the right to leave the kids with his parents.  As his parents like me and we get along, it was no big deal.
Title: Right of first refusal clarification
Post by: Davy on Jun 16, 2008, 08:31:32 AM
The OP posted asking for a clarification.  You provided s scenario in your little world that is in direct conflict and is contrary to the purpose and intent of widespread custody statues and practices designed primarily to give children more access to government designated non custodial parents while attempting to avoid/diffuse conflict and interference from non parents.

I think it is/was considered 'Children Rights' legislation.
Title: RE: Right of first refusal clarification
Post by: proudofmyboys on Jun 16, 2008, 09:07:19 AM
So do I understand correctly that I had every right to have my boys every evening after work while their mom was away for the week and that the grandparents could not refuse that?

This is going to come up any day now and I 'd like to be prepared. She's going to try and tell me that  I had no right to have them every evening but that I needed to stick to the original parenting plan. That means that I would only have them Monday and Wednesday.

BTW - I let the grandparents have them Wed. evening to prevent any kind of scene because the grand dad thinks that since he and his wife were the care takers that he could deny me seeing my boys. We had a disagreement in the definition of right of first refusal of course. Why they would even argue this is beyond me.
Title: I decline to engage. eom
Post by: tigger on Jun 16, 2008, 12:00:56 PM
Title: RE: Right of first refusal clarification
Post by: Davy on Jun 16, 2008, 02:52:32 PM
Proudofmyboys; I just found very useful info. on this subject matter on this site.  Click on 'articles' at the bottom of this page then search (upper right hand corner) on "right of first refusal'.  Then click on the very first entry returned for the TRUTH on the purpose and intent of these statues.  There are many other entries on this site as well.

Of course all custody issues are normally between "parents'  and others including grandparents, uncles, aunts, steparents, boyfriends, girlfriends, a neighbors dog, etc have absolutely NO AUTHORITY whatsoever with your children.

Unfortunately, these others often place themselves in authoritaive roles to upsurg your fatherly responsibilities and there are many ways including bad mouthing, non compliance with court orders, etc, etc, etc. At times they become so adamant that it results in true emotional/physical child abuse.  

In many situations, these others and the other parent become relentless to welcome you and your children into hell and you could be at the door mat.  Attorneys and judges love it ($$$).

Focus only on the well-being  of your children while nipping this BS.
(You may be on your way to becoming CP ).  

Title: Just for the sake of discussion....
Post by: dsm on Jun 18, 2008, 11:40:23 AM
You admit that you are not able to keep them for the entire week, correct?  And that your parenting plan as it is currently written would have then had you seeing your boys 2 nights out of this week, correct?

You also stated if I believe that you don't have any problem with them staying with the gparents while you are at work.  

Your issue seems to be that you want to be able to pick them up every day after work for a few hours and then return them for their bedtime and night with the g-parents.

Did you know your ex was going to be gone all week?  Did you request to keep the boys?  Did you request for them to be available to you every day after work for a few hours?

If you did not do that, then IMHO I think you are off base with your expectation of what should be happening this week.

It is presumptuous of you to expect the g-parents to be at your beck and call when it is not something that has been coordinated ahead of time.  They are staying at your ex's house under the presumption that the boys will be with them - and probably that you would be getting them on Monday and Wednesday, following the court order.  You coming in to demand "your time" with them isn't helping.

I think you should let them be where they are.  The g-parents have been generous in allowing you time with the boys.  They are not a party in your parenting plan and are under the direction of what your ex has left for them.   Unless you made other arrangements, you also need to operate by the direction of the court order.  Their arguing the right of first refusal is a result of your insistence that they abide by it; and unless they have notice stating such and such is supposed to happen, I wouldn't abide by it either.  Again, JMHO.

Also, the advice you receive out here really cannot be taken as an absolute - unless a poster who responds has been retained and posseses legal training for your particular state, county, etc, their suggestions are simply that - suggestions, opinions, and sharing of what worked/didn't work for their own situations.  Be careful with how you take and use the advice - double check with your own lawyer and laws before you act.

Good luck!


dsm - 37; DH - 41; SD - 18; LO - 12; BB - 5
It's time for me to do for me and mine.  The others can worry about themselves for awhile.
Title: RE: Just for the sake of discussion....
Post by: proudofmyboys on Jun 18, 2008, 12:59:46 PM

1) I did know that she was going to be gone all week.
2) She told me she was leaving Sunday evening - she left Sunday morning
3) Her parents kept them all day w/out notifying me
4) Right of first refusal is in our plan
5) I am the father
6) I work during the day
7) I live 30 miles away from the ex
8) The grandparents live 3 miles away from my boys

Nowhere is it listed in our plan that I have to be mindful of the grandparents convenience. Nor is it listed that I have to be thankful that the g-parents are "generous" in giving me time with my boys. Last I checked they were given to me by God, not them.

Besides, it's really more of a convenience because she wouldn't have to fix them dinner or clean up. And it's not like I would come flying through the door and demand the kids come with me. I would call during the day to tell them that I would be there at 6 and have them back by 8:30. A whole 2.5 hours. Not exactly what I would call putting them out nor be at my beck and call.

This is just another example of me having to fight for any extra time with my own kids. I am a loving and responsible father who is a great role model for those 3 boys and I believe that the ex and g-parents should be grateful of that. Instead of pushing me away I would think that they would welcome that.

Just turn on the news or talk to some friends who wish their ex husbands would even call their kids.

I don't believe for one minute that a court would have any problem with the boys and me being together for 2.5 hours M-F after I get off of work. Besides, 2 of those evenings involved a baseball game and baseball practice.

I appreciate your response to this forum DSM. I hope this discussion continues and I hope that it helps out anyone who reads it.

Have a great day. :-)
Title: RE: Right of first refusal clarification
Post by: ocean on Jun 18, 2008, 04:05:24 PM
It is pretty simple. First right of refusal is that YOU have them the WHOLE time. You can not go get them every night. She will win this in court. You will need to prove that you were able to take care of them for the whole week-either take off of work or have child care lined up.
Title: RE: Right of first refusal clarification
Post by: proudofmyboys on Jun 18, 2008, 04:15:30 PM
Ok, I politely disagree but what if the non-custodial parent doesn't get the first refusal offer? Then what? Is it just lost then and whomever the caretaker is gets bestowed custodial parenting rights?

Title: Absolutely you should have the time with your kids
Post by: dsm on Jun 18, 2008, 08:46:33 PM
I do, however, think that your presumption is late in the game.

okay, your ex misinterpreted to you when she was leaving which meant you lost Sunday with the kids.

She also could have taken the proactive stance and said that the kids stay with you during her honeymoon week.  However, you could have also taken the proactive stance that you intend to keep the kids during that week - or arrange in advance for the daily arrangement that you have laid out here.

You have every right and should take every opportunity to spend the quality time with your boys.  All I'm saying is for you to act ahead of time next time - not when there is an assumed schedule that then is changing at the last minute and without opportunity for both sides to agree.  I hope that makes sense.  It doesn't have to be such a fight.


dsm - 37; DH - 41; SD - 18; LO - 12; BB - 5
It's time for me to do for me and mine.  The others can worry about themselves for awhile.
Title: RE: Just for the sake of discussion....
Post by: Davy on Jun 18, 2008, 09:13:14 PM
For sake of discussion let us just assume everything is reversed.  Proud or Davy was automatically handed the great responsibilty of custodial parenting and all other particulars for the week are the same.

***  EXAMPLES  ***

Davy would have notified mom well in advance that he would be unavailable beginning Sunday morning (mother's day) and advise the boys would be looking forward to spending more time  with mom the entire week as is NORMAL.

Davy would NOT expect to have a leg up in the judicial system for creation of turmoil and financial loss to mom and possibly the boys

Davy would experience a sense of joy knowing the boys  have two parents they have the freedom to express their love

Mom would not spend the week posting to Sparc for clarification of custody statues

And Davy, as a grand dad, would never in a thousand years tell or argue with a parent concerning the well being of their child

And Davy as a casual observer or a judge would easily decipher human decency in the welfare of children and parents
Title: RE: Right of first refusal clarification
Post by: ocean on Jun 19, 2008, 05:42:21 AM
If you were not offered then she will be told the next time she has to offer the entire time to you. BUT I think she knew you had to work so she had her parents watch them and you should have gotten your regular visitation throughout the week.
You said you could not watch the child during the day so she needed to get someone to watch them. Should she offer you some extra nights ..sure..but legally
Title: RE: Right of first refusal clarification
Post by: proudofmyboys on Jun 24, 2008, 03:15:19 PM
This forum has kind of died down so I thought I'd leave a quick note to thank everyone for all of your great input. I just know that our conversation will help someone out in the future.

I think the huge lesson I got here is that I need to be more on top of planning time with my boys. I believe that would have prevented this whole thing and made for a seamless week. However, at the same time I also learned that the ex and her parents will try to "slide" one by me if given the chance.

So, what I'll do in the future is to cordially come to an agreement on time with my boys with my ex so that she can inform her folks. Hopefully that will prevent any more events like this. I also hope that they learned a lesson that I am not going to just allow them to monopolize time with my boys, but I'm doubtful.

So in short, I think the lesson here is Communication, Communication, Communication.

Wasn't one of the reasons why we got a divorce? Hmmmmmmm, it's like deja vu all over again.

Thanks everyone.