like all people my story is probably very long, but i will try to cut it down.
We live in Florida. Daughter 13, Son 11 I am on birth certs werent married at the time but are married now.
When our daughter was born I learned that I had been dating an alchoholic. Essentially I stopped all the partying but she kept right on going. I guess I'm a bit thick headed, as I didnt really think it was a problem. She doesnt get drunk that often, but when she does wow. She'll clean out everything there is to drink.
I have never wanted to take my children from her, as she is a good parent. She just has this problem with drinking. I have tried getting her to quit and trust me i have tried some very awful stuff, like telling the place she buys from to stop. It has come to the point in life that the children know exactly what is going on and dont want to be around it anymore. When she drinks the three of us leave the house until we know its okay to go home. She doesnt get physical, but she does get very evil with her words towards me. Repeats herself over and over, trips over everything and even burns herself on the stove.
Bad things I have done. Well in 2001 when I really started waking up, I came online to get help. well that led to me having "online" relations with someone. I am not sure what the courts would consider this? To her I cheated and am a horrible person, she will never forgive me. I know it was wrong, but I was very lonely.
I have some video tape of her being very drunk. One is extremely disturbing as the children were young and we came home and she was passed out. My son started screaming because he thought something was wrong with her. That is when I started teaching them about her problem.
People tell me I'm an idiot for staying this long and putting my children through this. Well this is how I see it, now when she drinks I have control and can take the children and leave. Its not that often, sometimes she can go 3 to 6 months without drinking. Sometimes she drinks every 3 days for a month. very sporatic. Well if we divorce and we share custody then what happens if she gets drunk on her days and something happens to the children? How do I forgive myself for leaving them in that situation?
Is there a way to ensure I get full custody? I really dont know what to do, but we cant handle it anymore. Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you and have a wonderful day.
Oh there are no SPARC atty's near me.
Wow, I am so sorry to hear that you and your children are in this situation. You indicated that you have done some awful stuff to get her to stop. Unfortunately, none of it will work if she doesn't want to stop. She has to wake up and smell the coffee on her own. Have you located an Alnon group in your area? It may help you and your children.
Unfortunately, there is no way to guarantee that you will end up with sole custody of your children. Your affair has more to do with a divorce situation then it does with custody- as far as I am aware of- understand, I am by no means an attorney- just speaking from my life experiences. You may want to contact an attorney, to see what your options are. You definitely have to put your children first. Seeing their mom this way is definitely going to affect them.
Best of luck to you and your family.
First of all, there is no such thing as a part-time alcoholic. Either one is an alcoholic or they are not.
Alcoholics can have dry spells where they don't drink. But that doesn't change the fact that they are an alcohlic.
As for what to do with your kids, unless you can prove that she is an alcoholic and does drink around them, there's not much you can do. Any DUI's? Those could help your case.
Have you left the kids alone with her at anytime after you realized she was an alcoholic? If so, you are going to have an even harder time proving your argument.
As for the video, well, just how do you prove that she was drunk and not just acting silly? You can't.
If I were in your shoes, I would stick it out for another 7 years. It's the only way to somewhat protect your kids.
WOW...this sounds all to well like my CHILDHOOD to me. Coming from the childs point of view, let me explain what I went through. I will say mine seems to be a little more bad off than yours at this point. My Mother and Father had both drank when I was really little, once my Father noticed how bad my Mother was with her drinking, like you it was time for him to stop and be the better adult in the issue. My Mother drank daily, plain vodka (big bottles). It was so bad that every weekend I would go down the street to my Grandmother and Grandfathers to spend the night and when I was in the third grade my MOTHER was the one who started to have relationships with another man. The sad part, my Mother took me with her and my Father had to come get me some 3 hours away because she sent me with my Great Grandmother and Great Uncle and would not give me back to my Father.
The friend that drove my Father to get me in the middle of the night told my Father then that it would be best to file for divorce and take me with him. My Father didn't do it because he was affraid I would have wanted to be with my Mother, sorry excuse but understandable in a man's point of view. So my Father took her back and we continued to deal with her constant drinking. My Mother went to all kinds of programs, one that was even two hours away in another city. None of them worked. My Mother then started to get worse. She would drink more, leave her bottles all over the house (which caused my cat to get drunk and have to be detoxed), hide the vodka in sprite cans and bottles, carry it everywhere with her, hide it in spice containers (my Father drilled holes in the bottom of them), pass out in the middle of the store or anywhere at home (to the point you could mess with her and she not even know it, have it on video), steal from me and others, and so on and so on.
It wasn't until my 2nd year of high school my Father started to take her to court. There were oders of protection (got us sent to be on Jodge Joe Brown, talk about humiliation), constant letting her back through the door (very stupid of him), the divorce (custody went to my Father, and so on.
Sure I just told you some of what all happened but maybe you should talk to your kids about the issue which I wish my Father would have done with me sooner than so late into my childhood. I would have backed him all the way on the divorce cause there was so much more going on and I didn't need to be in any of the mess. The drinking can become worse and it's best to walk away before any of that happens. This is just from my point of view as a CHILD in somewhat the same problem.
One thing to keep in mind.........if you take the kids to her and she is obviously drunk (she smells and/or acts that way), do NOT leave the kids with her, no matter how loud she screams. And if she threatens to call the cops, let her. They wouldn't let her have the kids while she's inebriated any more than you will.
But if you ever leave the kids with her (and you know or have a strong suspicion that she is drunk) and something happens........she drives drunk and/or has an accident while they are in the vehicle.....and it is found out that you left the kids with her knowing she was that way, YOU can be accused of neglect or endangerment. Don't go there.
I also recommend Al-Anon, for both you and your kids (Alateen for them). Gather as much documentation as possible on her drinking habits and episodes. And do whatever you can to get a modification of custody. There's no way to know how that will turn out, whether you'd get sole custody or she is ordered to have supervised visitation, but whatever it takes to keep those children safe.
DS's dad was an alcoholic and I know that he drove drunk with DS when he was a baby...I couldn't prove it, long story. DS'S dad had severe family history of alcoholism. DH is a recovering alcoholic and that's where I learned about Al-Anon. And I'm an EMT-B...I've seen the damage that can be done by drunk drivers. This is not something to mess or hope it goes away. Your children are depending on YOU to keep them safe.....do whatever it takes to make that happen.
I agree with Kitty - if you don't do something about it NOW. You stand the chance that she does hurt the children while under the influence and you're much better safe than sorry. File now and do attend meetings, they do help - you're not alone.
My ex-fiance had an alcohol and drug (pills) problem - his mother was a RAGING alcoholic and his dad would pop any pill for any reason. He went to meetings and I went along for support. He also sought counseling / therapy and it helped him understand that although his parents chose to do the things they did, he didn't have to follow the same path and could rise above it. I'll never forget the therapist telling him he's a product of parents....that's all I heard when he decided it was okay for him to drink heavily.
I could no longer endure the situation and left the relationship.
Not sure if you heard but we just had a case here in NY. A mother drank and killed herself and a few kids in her car, plus others in the other car. Her HUSBAND has CPS called on him and they did an investigation to make sure he did not know she was drunk that morning. Husband had to prove he was not near her all morning.
If you know she is a drinker and not doing anything you can be arrested and charged. If you do get a lawyer, have him look at the NY case. He can use that in your defense...
In the meantime, take more pics and video, gather evidence. Next time she is drunk, call police, file report. Get temporary custody of kids. You can ask for a law guardian for kids and they will see what the kids want and have witnessed. She has an addiction that she is does not want to give up yet...you cant force someone to get help.
Great point, ocean!!!!!!! We certainly heard of the case here in the Midwest.
1) You are not qualified to make the diagnosis that she is an alcoholic.
2) You "realized" she was alcholic 13 years ago, after the birth of your daughter, but you had another child with her and have been with her 13 years??????? and NOW you want to use this against her?
3) Someone who doesn't drink/get drunk often is NOT an alcoholic.
Quite simply put, nothing you have said is going to be a reason for Mom not to have shared custody, which is the norm in FL. You aren't going to cut her out of their lives, and you are not going to get sole custody, not with anything you have mentioned.
My three children could imitate their bed-ridden, pill-popping, drunken maternal grandmother
when they were much younger than your children. Your proof is in the pudding. Unless the judge is a drunk or a mother of two you should easily be able to restrain the mother in the family environment.
Think of it this way. You and the children, with the help of the court system, could very well be the catalyst it takes to encourage her recovery. In other words, you and the kids would be doing an honorable thing with a possible positive impact and outcome.
Whatever, do not let her put you on a guilt trip or insinuate that you are the cause of the problems or her problems. She will blame everybody else in order not to deal with her own problem.
MOT,
No alcoholic or recovering alcoholic is 'diagnosed' in the formal sense (formal meaning medical), unless you consider judges to be an authority to do so. Because they are the ones who orders the alcohol recovery along with any restitution/penalty the accused is required to do. And unless you've experienced and lived with an alcoholic, you don't have the authority to say that this OP's ex is NOT one. But everything the OP describes of the symptoms of his ex screams alcoholism. Especially the pattern.........all alcoholics have a pattern: what they drink, when they drink, where they drink, and why they drink. And she has a definitely pattern...once she starts, she goes full bore.
Davy is right.......'She will blame everybody else in order not to deal with her own problem.' Denial, along with justification are two of the biggest issues with alcoholics and drug abusers.
Yes, he may have put up with it for 13 years, but again, if you haven't lived with an alcoholic, you have no idea what the lifestyle is like. Yes, he had another child, but every enabler truely believes that the alcoholic will 'see the light' and change their ways. Given how long I put up with DS's dad's drinking, I should have left LONG before I did, considering what I subjected my son to. But I was an enabler and co-dependent, which most co-habitants of alcoholics are, and always hoped/wished/prayed he'd come to his senses and see what damage he was doing to himself and everyone else around him. It took me a VERY long time to even understand the mechanics of alcoholism, which is probably also the case with the OP.
It doesn't sound like the OP is wanting to 'cut her out of their lives', it sounds like he finally is starting to understand the mechanics of the disease and that, as a parent, he has a responsibility of protecting his children from the repercussions and the fallout.
I agree with Kitty C completely, even though I have not lived with alcoholics or hard core drug addicts- although my son could be working on a drug addiction. An alcoholic who has not had a drink for 30 years (and has been in AA or other groups) will still refer to him/herself as an alcoholic. A sober one. But an alcoholic, nonetheless. So will a drug addict. The disease may be under control but the addiction is still there, waiting to grab the person again.
I smoked for 30 years. I am still a smoker, even though I haven't touched tobacco for four years. I've quit three times for long periods of time. All it takes is one cigarette, one drink. It's waiting to get me again.
The OP's wife could very well be a binge drinker alcoholic. All the signs are there. The OP's wife will have to hit bottom and ask for help for herself. All the OP can do is protect his children and himself from the consequences of her drinking.
Kitty,
I don't disagree with you, but he is going to need a lot more then his claim and a video from one time from a long time ago for him to have sole custody, particularly in FL. The FL statutes changed and the standard is shared custody and shared parenting time. For one parent to be given sole custody is VERY unlikely and especially with his allegation. I am not saying there isn't a problem, I am saying with what he alleges without proof, without evidence of her putting the children in harms way -- this will NOT be a reason he will get sole custody / primary physical custody in FL.
I understand that FL statutes are strict, but it doesn't change the fact that he can demand and get evaluations from the National Council on Alcoholism ordered by the court and that, along with the proof he has and the possible testimony of the children would be plenty to put some serious restraints on the custody decisions. He can ask for whatever it takes to protect his children. Given the kids' ages, I would not be surprised if the judge wants to talk to them about what they've seen, heard, and smelled.
We had NCA evals done during our custody battle, both of us were ordered to do it after my atty. brought it up in court that I believed ex was an alcoholic....that's all it took. My results stated I was co-dependent, so I found a Co-Dependents Anonymous group to join and the results of my eval were shared with opposing atty. and ex, as court ordered. But for some reason we never got ex's results. The lack of response was telling. Another thing, this may have been done back in the early 90's, but NCA didn't charge us a thing, so even if there is a fee, I'm sure it is nominal.
Shared custody doesn't have to be changed in this case and I never stated that it should. But some strong stipulations can be put in place to keep the children safe. Like if Dad suspects that BM has been drinking when the children are exchanged, he can refuse to turn over the kids until the BM does a breathalizer test. Also he can stipulate that if she gets a DUI, with or without the kids along, she will be forced to have supervised visitation until she tests negative for alcohol for a given length of time. And I'm sure there are other stipulations that could be made that could be tailored more specifically to their case.
It's not about taking the kids away from the BM or going for sole/primary custody, it's all about protecting the kids........because if nothing is done, then the only alternative is to wait until the inevitable happens. And if that's an accident, dead kids make the whole issue a moot point.
Quote from: Kitty C. on Aug 28, 2009, 07:44:43 AM
I understand that FL statutes are strict, but it doesn't change the fact that he can demand and get evaluations from the National Council on Alcoholism ordered by the court and that, along with the proof he has and the possible testimony of the children would be plenty to put some serious restraints on the custody decisions. He can ask for whatever it takes to protect his children. Given the kids' ages, I would not be surprised if the judge wants to talk to them about what they've seen, heard, and smelled.
My alcoholic father was able to sweet talk himself out of a DUI, even though he was drunk at the time.
Alcohol does not stay in the body like other drugs do. My alcoholic father only drank on the week-ends. He would have passed any evaluation there was. And, yes, my father drove all of us (5 kids total) in a vehicle when he was drunk.
A video does not prove anything. I can act drunk when I am stone cold sober. All the mother has to do is say that she was just acting. There's no proof otherwise.
The original poster is in a tough spot because his wife has an addiction that is hard to prove.
I agree with previous poster, and that is all I was saying, at this point in time - this is his allegation. No history of arrests, public drunkeness, no DUI, no rehab,.... he is in a very difficult position to prove this and to use it to gain custody, particularly in a state where the standard is now shared legal/shared physical.
Incidentally Kitty, the Journal of American Medicine absolutely does have an established criteria for diagnosis of alcoholism. It is a medical condition and is recgonized as such. This definition was prepared by the Joint Committee to Study the Definition and Criteria for the Diagnosis of Alcoholism of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine. It's criteria for diagnosis is used every day for evaluation of patients into the clinical or rehab setting and for determination of treatment. You legally can't treatment someone without rendering a diagnosis.
Also, FL courts do not readily ever want a child to be involved in a custody determination. It is highly frowned upon.
But, you are right, if it is his contention, then he can and should request for an evaluation, but based on it being his allegation only, it is not a slam dunk it will be approved.
I know that alcoholism is a designated medical diagnosis..............I went through the NCA eval. What I'm saying is there is no requirement of the court to have it medically diagnosed in order to stipulate to it in an order. Drug abuse is another one............when you're talking about addictions, DUI's and dirty drug tests are perfectly admissible in court without getting a medical eval. to back it up. And it is very possible that they would approve ordering NCA evals. just on his allegations alone....that's how I got it.
I understand how the FL courts act.....but it is NOT the rule....they still go on a case-by-case basis, so anything is possible at any time. But I will not tell anyone they don't have a flying chance in he!!, regardless of how tough or lenient a court may be. This OP sounds defeated from the get-go and I'm only giving him as much info and pass on as much experience as I've had in order to give him the incentive to fight this as hard as he can. It is ALWAYS a crap shoot, no matter what court or what state one might be in. All that matters is what happens in HIS case and how HE prepares for it and fights in it............
As for anyone trying to talk their way out of a DUI nowadays, that's almost virtually impossible, unless you're talking about some backwater sheriff's dept. who has 'buddies' they don't want to see get into trouble. I've been taught by deputies on what they look for to have probable cause in order to pull a vehicle over for suspected DUI. I've called in plenty of suspected vehicles myself...I have 2 sheriff's dept. non-emergency numbers in my cell phone. Just in my state alone, the number of DUI's has risen dramatically as law enforcement agencies have gotten tougher. For anyone who drives drunk, it's only a matter of time.....
First I want to thank everyone for their comments, even though some were hard to swallow.
Second, I had posted after the third post, but its gone?
I have a lot to read here and consume and I appreciate everyone's input, no matter how cold it is. I would like to state that I dont believe I said I wanted to take my children away from their mother, rather for her to get help. But I have come to the point where I realize I can not help someone who does not want to help themselves. Also, I did not realize she was an alcholic until 2000, this was after our second child was born. I noticed symptoms before that, but didnt realize it. And for you to say someone to say I dont have the ability to diagnose alcholism, what do you call it when someone is 44 yrs old picks her children up from school drunk, eats taco salad with her hands and passes out by 6pm? I talked with my son for an hour last night about this, as it happened yesterday. He is so scared, he wants to leave, yet he doesnt want to leave her. I dont blame him, she isnt bad all the time. I didnt even ask him and he asked me if he could tell the judge he wanted me to have custody because he was scared to stay with his mom. This is only getting worse. I will ask the children about calling the police again.
I called the police one time when I came home and she was drunk, they were eating pork and I went in the kitchen, the pork (that she prepared) was on the stove and RAW on the inside. I mentally lost it and called for a sheriff to come out and try to scare her straight. Guess what, nothing he could do.
The reality is, I want her to become clean. I dont think this will happen, and it appears there is no way for me to get full custody. What is a caring dad to do?
I feel for you....I really do. Addictions are extremely hard to understand for those of us who aren't. I had a friend I housesat for in CA for a a while........he was so addicted to alcohol, I could smell him before I saw him, because the alcohol would seep out of his skin. I could never understand how someone could do something like that to their body, considering how miserable it made them feel. I even asked DH why and he coudn't tell me, either.
Absolutely make sure that the kids understand they can call the police ANY time they feel afraid. Or if they don't feel comfortable doing that, then they call you and YOU call the police, tell them you've received a call from your children, they are afraid because their mom is drinking, and you want a welfare check done. If the police arrive, find her passed out or just completely inebriated, they have every right to remove the children from the home. So when (I know it's not if) you call the police, tell them that you want the children brought to you if they have to be removed. Get reports of EVERY time the cops go to her door for anything and submit it to the court when you go back.
As much as you want her to 'come clean', I strongly recommend you find an Al-Anon group to join to help you through this process. After much soul-searching and stress, I finally came to the realization that no one can change an addict. They have to want it for themselves first........and every addict has their 'bottom', the place that they finally reach that gives them that 'lightbulb moment' when they realize they can't do this anymore. Unfortunately for some, that bottom can be death and for others, they have to lose everything before they reach it. In DH's case, it was me saying I wouldn't live that way anymore and I left. He realized he wanted me more than the booze. But it's a choice only the addict can make.
Maybe it will take the BM losing her children, or only having very limited or supervised visitation, to get her to that lightbulb moment, who knows. But you can't force the issue, no matter how much you would like to........it totally has to be up to her. Do the Al-Anon and get the kids into AlaTeen......they no doubt will have a lot of guilt, because it's common for them to rationalize that if they were better kids, did all the things they were supposed to do, not make her mad, etc., then she wouldn't drink. They take responsibility for it and they have to understand that it is NOT them, that it's an illness their mom has and nothing they can say or do will change that.
Just don't accept defeat before it's even happened or you've even tried. There is no way of knowing if you'll get full custody or primary physical or whatever until the judge rules on it. Half of this battle is mental and you must get your mind in the right place to get through it. Go through this as if you EXPECT full custody, but understand that there is a possibility that you may have to settle for less. Ask for the moon and stars and settle for something less than that if you have to. But don't NOT even try........one of my favorite Beatitudes is one that isn't in the Bible: Blessed are those who expect nothing, for they will not be disappointed.
What is a caring dad supposed to do? Protect those children, no matter what it takes.....
Quote from: Kitty C. on Sep 01, 2009, 08:07:52 AMJust don't accept defeat before it's even happened or you've even tried. There is no way of knowing if you'll get full custody or primary physical or whatever until the judge rules on it. Half of this battle is mental and you must get your mind in the right place to get through it. Go through this as if you EXPECT full custody, but understand that there is a possibility that you may have to settle for less. Ask for the moon and stars and settle for something less than that if you have to. But don't NOT even try........one of my favorite Beatitudes is one that isn't in the Bible: Blessed are those who expect nothing, for they will not be disappointed.
What is a caring dad supposed to do? Protect those children, no matter what it takes.....
The problem with the above recommendation is that she doesn't work. She's a stay at home mom. If he can't prove her alcoholism, he's not getting custody. She is. Once the judge rules, it's going to be hard to change without proof. Before he does anything, he should consult with an attorney to see what his chances are. Because one thing for sure, he doesn't want to try and then find out that he's the one without primary custody. By then, it's too late.
By staying, he has more control over the situation. He can hire a someone to come in and clean the house/care for the kids when the kids are there so that she is not alone with them. If he were to get divorced and get primary, he's going to have to have some kind of childcare set up. Plus, it's one more witness who could be considered unbiased. Let's face it, a judge is going to be skeptical of the soon to be ex husband making claims of addiction so that he can get custody.
Jeepin
You and your children will be best served, in the short and long term, if you pay attention to Kitty and her likes. I've reread many of her post and agree word for word.
Believe me, the children are far more impacted in many ways than you or anyone else and their words or testimony will weight heavy. IMHO, this mother's behavior is clearly emotionally and mentally abusive to the children especially at their ages.
Do not let this happen to the kids even if you and the kids have to run-like-hell from the state of Floriduh (according to MOT).
Quote from: Davy on Sep 01, 2009, 04:32:20 PM
Jeepin Believe me, the children are far more impacted in many ways than you or anyone else and their words or testimony will weight heavy. IMHO, this mother's behavior is clearly emotionally and mentally abusive to the children especially at their ages.
Prove it. Which is what he is going to have to do. I'm not saying that you are wrong. Having grown up with an alcoholic father, I know the damage that it does to children. But knowing she's an alcoholic and PROVING it are two separate issues. The judge is going to want the latter. Just his say so isn't going to be enough.
Quote from: Davy on Sep 01, 2009, 04:32:20 PM
Do not let this happen to the kids even if you and the kids have to run-like-hell from the state of Floriduh (according to MOT).
That's one way of the father losing custody. And I sincerely hope that he does not follow it. Because he won't be able to protect the kids if he's the one with supervised visits.