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Main Forums => Custody Issues => Topic started by: zikzak on Dec 09, 2009, 03:26:12 PM

Title: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: zikzak on Dec 09, 2009, 03:26:12 PM
today im still waiting the hearing on my custody case to have the judge decide if will grant the mother sole custody or joint legal custody as i want.

today i receive a letter from school after sending the ferpa act information now they sending me info regarding my daughter and that n1h1 vaccination was ready for those who wanted im oppose to have my daughter vaccinate with h1n1.

im still have the legal custody of my child but the mother registered my daughter at school with out telling me i find out the school name after talking to my daughter by phone the other day.

the school told me they have to hear to the mother because she has physical custody of the child.


is there something i can do to have the school hold on for the vaccination till there is a court hearing for the custody of the child?
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: Kitty C. on Dec 09, 2009, 03:51:51 PM
With all the information currently out there, I have a feeling that time will be against you.  The reason being:  H1N1 will only be around for a limited amount of time and there is no way of determining if and when you will get this issue into court, and even if you do, that doesn't mean they will rule on it.

If you don't mind my asking, what is your reason for not having your child vaccinated?  Children are in the high risk group simply for the fact that they haven't the immunities built up to fight it off.  And if a child has any medical issues, all the more reason to have them vaccinated.  Two dentists that I work with literally had to go searching for available vaccine for their kids, driving into other communities/counties to find it....two children of one of the dentists have some serious health issues, hence her anxiety in trying to find it.  I don't know what the cut-off age is, but the vaccine is administered in a series of two IM shots (as compared to the nasal spray for adults) in young children.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: zikzak on Dec 09, 2009, 04:39:39 PM
i dont think this is the right forum for this topic, there is plenty of forums outhere where people can express their views in this issue H1N1 vaccines.

i just can say that there is no anough proof of side effects on people yet.

but my question is about if school have to listen at both parents till there is a decition about the custody of the child?
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: ocean on Dec 09, 2009, 04:52:12 PM
You have joint custody now? Call the principal first then the superintendents office....fax them or bring them you CURRENT papers and have them abide by them. Put in writing after the phone call of the decision...and make sure the school nurse knows...
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: zikzak on Dec 09, 2009, 05:57:58 PM
i have legal custody as the child has my name and is registered by both parents and we are waiting for the court decision to grant sole or joint legal custody.

there has not been any court ruling on the custody and she has the physical custody of the child...

but i don't have any court papers as we are waiting for the hearing for the court to decide on the sole or joint legal custody but today so far i have joint legal custody.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: ocean on Dec 09, 2009, 06:13:37 PM
Oh....no, then. Doesnt matter their name. You have not finished court and the process so she is "legally" the primary parent until you establish your rights. Sorry...
You may think that you will be done in January but from experience depending on the court and judge is takes many many trips to the court house to finish. If someone is sick or bad weather...canceled. Plus the "normal" process is hearing, hearing, and more hearings, then a trial that may last a few sessions and not all in the same week.
The school can give both parents information legally with a birth certificate but for medical shots you need to get something from court when you are not married to the mother. Not fair, it is ,.....what it is.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: zikzak on Dec 09, 2009, 06:28:49 PM
i see...

is what it is...


unfortunately also the hearing is in the states and im not in the states.


as someone told me before im up to go into a trip up the hill and that hill is the Kilimanjaro...

anyway i been very patient and im still waiting and waiting.

lets see what time says.

thanx for your answers
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: Davy on Dec 10, 2009, 09:49:33 AM
Maybe it just me but when it comes to medicating a child I would adamantly voice my objection irregardless of parental status, adjudicated court orders,  and particularly the school system.

The school can not make custody determinations based on "living arrangement" and all other matters are in limbo at this point in time.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: ocean on Dec 10, 2009, 02:07:31 PM
I work in a school and yes the school can. This father has no legal rights with the court system. This is about a medical issue (shot) which the mother has primary placement for and really sole custody until they get an order in place.  School records is a little different and he can get those with a birth certificate if his name is on it.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: zikzak on Dec 10, 2009, 02:46:48 PM
no the school can't, the only thing they can is follow the rules.

there is pending a court hearing plus a mediation aproach to solve our differences that fail.

there is no doubt about me holding legal custody of my child till a court says the opposite it's not just a birth certificate but a long story of a legal process that does not reach an end yet.

so far there has not been any court order or ruling that take away my right to parent and that right includes taking decitions upon the health and well being of my child.


i send a letter to the principal of the school and im still waiting for an answer.


im completely agree with davy

"The school can not make custody determinations based on "living arrangement" and all other matters are in limbo at this point in time."
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: ocean on Dec 10, 2009, 03:14:32 PM
You never had any legal custody....not through the eyes of the state. Even if you have a birth certificate the courts will make you do a paternity test or have the both parents sign a special form in the hospital.

Until you get your first order through the courts you have no rights. There is a federal law regarding school records...that both parents get them UNLESS there is a court order otherwise. There is not one for medical.

You have an open case but like I said ...this will take months to resolve UNLESS you come to an agreement. If January is a hearing....not a trial...you are at the beginning of this. Dh's took over a year....mine (along with divorce) took 2 years. You can ask for temporary orders on things you want dealt with immediately but the judge may not do it.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: MomofTwo on Dec 10, 2009, 04:49:42 PM
I completely agree with Ocean.  You are wrong saying they haven't taken away your rights, you haven't been legally given any.  You haven't said if you were married, I am guessing no.  An unmarried woman is presumed to have sole custody until a court says otherwise.  The school does not need to respond to you or respect your wishes. A birth certificate and last name is not a guarantee of rights in many states. 
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: Davy on Dec 10, 2009, 05:31:18 PM
Ya'll can agree with each other all you want because you are both making a lot of assumptions.

I'm posting based on the OP.   

It is utterly ridiculous to even imply that a school district can make a custody determination or medicate a child against the parent's will.  Even in NY or FL.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: ocean on Dec 10, 2009, 06:07:12 PM
The school is getting permission from the primary parent. That is all they need. They are not making a custody decision...the mother has custody since there is no papers with the courts as of today. That is the law. We may not agree with the law, but that is the way it is.

PS -I am in NY and have fought for fathers when it comes to crazy mothers who try and keep a father from my class party or go on a trip with their kid. Fathers are more protected when it comes to school info and having access. The only thing they cant do is sign there kid out unless it is their day when we have custody papers on file.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: Davy on Dec 11, 2009, 10:41:11 AM
Ocean.  Sorry !  You continue to post based on your assumptions.

The OP claimed to be the legal parent with the right to make medical decisions for his child and indicated it has been a long legal process.

You respond that the (1) mother is the primary parent and (2) the school is getting permission from the primary parent..  You do not know if either is true from what has been posted.  As far as anybody knows, the school is medicating all the children while not seeking any parental permission including your imaginary primary parent who, BTW, may also be against the school medicating the child.

The OP also posted that he is not in country and the mother had attempted to hide the child..

For all you know, the OP is the legal primary parent in another country or this country while YOUR DESIGNATED primary imaginary parent has snatched the child.

You just don't know.  Whatever the case, the OP appears to be following the defined legal processes and seeking advice as a responsible parent for his child.  The action or behavior of a school or some social policy can not define parental status or override the wishes of a parent.   
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: Kitty C. on Dec 11, 2009, 11:53:14 AM
Davy,

The OP stated:

'i have legal custody as the child has my name and is registered by both parents and we are waiting for the court decision to grant sole or joint legal custody.

there has not been any court ruling on the custody and she has the physical custody of the child...'

Since there are NO orders whatsoever, the school is considering the BM to be the primary parent.  Just because the child has the OP's last name doesn't give the OP the right to legal custody.......you know that.  Yes, there are hearings scheduled, but the OP apparently has nothing in writing and signed by a judge that gives him joint legal.  Hence the school is going with the only parent they are legally allowed to.  If this status changes once they go to court and get an order signed, THEN the OP can go to the school with legal info in hand.

And this based on info from the OP, too.........
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: Davy on Dec 11, 2009, 02:20:29 PM
Kitty .. I'm not being trite, difficult, or argumentative.

The OP and others have a serious issue with a school medicating a child against a parent's will.  Especially a student that just appeared out of no where and whose custody is known to be in question.

There has been nothing posted (but assummed) the school sought any parents permission or the imaginary "primary" parent has legal custody just that the school is making their determination based on the child's living arrangement and the chosen "primary parent" is a female.   Pretty weak considering the seriousness of a child's medical treatment that the school should not be involved with in the first place.   For all the school knows, their designated parent could be on the FBI 10 Most Wanted list and we all know, or should know, they made their determination because the parent they chose is a female.  We might asked the lawn crew or the trash haulers to make a determination (they make more $$ than school folks).

Oh my gawd, I know this because I was a single father raising kids and the schools loved me like hell....and I was tickled pink !!! 

I'm serious.  Do you or Ocean or anybody know the legal authority the school may be using to justify their action.   State ?  Federal ?  DHS policy ?  Local school district policy ?   Or have these statements and like statements been made so often they have become the social gospel.   If I knew at one time ... I've forgotten.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: ocean on Dec 11, 2009, 02:32:33 PM
I work in a school and have been on the phone with the district lawyer over a few issues that came up between parents...(not medical issues....)

The school enrolled the child with evidence that the mother is the sole parent. The father came to school and said he is the father and showed a birth certificate. Until he shows court papers stating his rights he has limited access. He CAN get school records and be at school functions. He can NOT take child from school property (until the court papers prove his legal parenting days). He can NOT make decisions at special ed meetings however he can sit in on the meetings. He CAN come on school trips. These are some of the issues I have dealt with.

The medical issue....Pretend the school was not involved and the mother took child to dr office. The dr would have to give shot if mother requested it regardless of fathers concerns as mother has legal rights right now. Once he gets the paper...DIFFERENT story. (By the way...the shots are given free to the school kids around here but need parental consent...my school is not giving them so I cant ask anyone by me...). The school is where the shot is being given to get to the most kids. School is just the housing place for this...it is not given by the school but the state /county health departments.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: Kitty C. on Dec 11, 2009, 03:06:46 PM
Davy,

I'm not basing my answer on what the school is legally allowed to do, but what they have to go on based on the lack of evidence.  They have NO orders specifying physical or legal custody, so the only thing they can do is go on the documentation the BM gave them when the child was registered.  If the OP had SOME kind of order (his name on the BC doesn't give him ANY rights) to show the school, then it would be a different story.

This whole issue is based on the lack of an order to direct the school otherwise, so they can only go on the information they have at hand.  And yes........the BM could be Janice the Ripper, but if the school has no knowledge or documentation confirming or denying the fact, they go on what they've got.  And right now, they have no legal documentation giving the OP the right to dispute whether he wants his child vaccinated or not.  Until the school is proven otherwise, the BM is the legal parent and he has NO rights, period.

And ocean is right, it is NOT the school who has final authority on the vaccine...it is the state health dept.  They are only using the school as a venue because it is convenient to get as many kids vaccinated as possible.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: zikzak on Dec 12, 2009, 11:07:02 AM
i will clarify more about my situation and also the issue on my question.


first than anything im a single proud father my child has my last name but also is registered in both countries the mother's and mine.

my child was born in the US and i open a process (2 years ago) under the Hague convention for international child abduction, according to the convention my paternity was established once i have the legal documentation that proves that.

birth certificate and registration in both countries as the child has two nationalities.


central authorities of both countries had established and acknowledge my paternity just with a birth certificate, we try mediation but didn't work, finally she filed for sole custody, i the accept go to court as is the only way to reach a parenting plan and visitation rights, i don't have legal representation and exhausted all the possibilities with no avail.


the issue is as davy wrote " The action or behavior of a school or some social policy can not define parental status or override the wishes of a parent. "


for example if there is a health emergency and decisions most be taken will the hospital ask the mother for the father authorization?


it's been 4 years since i don't see my daughter 2 years trying to negotiate and reach an agreement with the mother and 2 years in the Hague convention process, finally we will go to court for a hearing but there is not a date yet.

if this will take 2 years or more (im sure more as the mother and i can't agree in many issues) that's means that i will be able to exercise parenting rights when my daughter is 9 years old at least.


which means my daughter had been away 9 years, it is safe to say that i lost a child. ((http://www.deltabravo.net/forum/Smileys/default/undecided.gif)(http://www.deltabravo.net/forum/Smileys/default/cry.gif))
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: ocean on Dec 12, 2009, 12:57:47 PM
Ok....you are out of the country so what stops mom from taking child to the dr and getting shot there? This is a very small issue you raised compared to what is really going on in your case.

I am confused....do you have custody in YOUR country and trying to get child back? Why is this an abduction?
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: Kitty C. on Dec 12, 2009, 04:04:05 PM
One thing to keep in mind is that the US does NOT recognize dual citizenships.  My son is eligible for citizenship in Canada for the simple fact that his father was a Canadian citizen when DS was born.  Canada will recognize both his US and Canadian citizenship, but the US only recognizes his US citizenship.  So the citizenship of the child in this case is a moot point if this custody case goes through a US court.  Now, IF you have some kind of legal custody of the child in the country you live in, then the Hague convention will come into play, but only in regards to the possible abduction.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: zikzak on Dec 13, 2009, 07:34:07 PM
 
Quote from: Kitty C. on Dec 12, 2009, 04:04:05 PM

One thing to keep in mind is that the US does NOT recognize dual citizenships. My son is eligible for citizenship in Canada for the simple fact that his father was a Canadian citizen when DS was born. Canada will recognize both his US and Canadian citizenship, but the US only recognizes his US citizenship. So the citizenship of the child in this case is a moot point if this custody case goes through a US court. Now, IF you have some kind of legal custody of the child in the country you live in, then the Hague convention will come into play, but only in regards to the possible abduction.





"The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause"... (can't post the link but you can find this info in the web site of the US state department.)



Quote from: ocean on Dec 12, 2009, 12:57:47 PM
Ok....you are out of the country so what stops mom from taking child to the dr and getting shot there? This is a very small issue you raised compared to what is really going on in your case.

I am confused....do you have custody in YOUR country and trying to get child back? Why is this an abduction?

ocean, AFAIK this forum is about helping people with their doubts about issues that have to deal with parenting and family issues.

my question it's plain simple should school listen at both parents?


you give your point of view but please do not take this to other areas there is nothing to be confused about it.

stop assuming things do read and understand the Hague convention treaty, it does not just deal with abductions.

please lets keep focus on the topic.

thanx.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: Kitty C. on Dec 13, 2009, 08:27:31 PM
We ARE focusing on the issue.....the issue is whether you have the legal standing that the school or any other facility can/will recognize.  You still haven't stated if you have a US order giving you legal custody, so we have to go on the assumption that you don't.  Yes, the Hague convention may very well come into play, but ONLY through the courts.  Schools and medical offices go on court orders, NOT the Hague convention.  If you have no official legal custody through a US court, then you have to ascertain your rights through the courts via the Hague convention.  Once it is ruled on in your favor, then and only then will a school or medical facility recognize you as a legal parent.

Also understand that we have no idea how the US recognizes the Hague convention, we are not attorneys and the advice given here is based upon personal knowledge and experience.  We DO know that there are countries who signed the Hague and do NOT recognize it.  It is seen often enough in the media, especially with two international custody cases currently in the headlines, one in Brazil and one in Italy.

"The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause..."  That means the US does NOT recognize citizenships from other countries, period.  They only recognize that other countries do.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: ocean on Dec 14, 2009, 04:26:56 AM
Wow...I have been on this site for over 10 years (just like a lot of us) and we are trying to help you.

We have explained how schools and medical facilities work here in the US. The system is far from perfect...but you will have to deal with what it is.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: MomofTwo on Dec 14, 2009, 05:42:58 AM
Regarding ocean, "AFAIK this forum is about helping people with their doubts about issues that have to deal with parenting and family issues.  my question it's plain simple should school listen at both parents?  you give your point of view but please do not take this to other areas there is nothing to be confused about it. "


Whether you like what was told to you or not, Ocean is correct.  What you fail to understand is that legally, you are NOT recgonized in the US as having parental rights, therefore, you do not have a say about what is best or permissible for your child. The school does not have to listen to "both parents" because you are not legally considered having legal rights to that decision making for the child.   Period. 

What you fail to understand is that in the United States, in many states, an unmarried father of a child born does not automatically have rights or say regarding the upbringing of the child.  The "father" has to be given those rights through court, which is what you are doing.  The mother of the child is presumed to have sole custody and decision making until a court says otherwise.   You may not like it, but  that's the way it is.  You are in the process of trying to obtain rights but until a court says you do, you don't and the school nor anyone has to consult with you or get your permission regarding the child.   Additionally, with you being out of the country, don't be surprised to not be given shared legal custody.  Decision making regarding a child is difficult when people reside in the same area, but particularly difficult when out of the country.

Regarding the very original post, regarding H1N1, if this type of decision would go the courts because you do not agree with Mom, you have to provide a whole lot  more for your argument then I just don't agree with it.  The pros and cons would be evaluated and if that is your only arguement weighed against the benefits, you lose that arguement.

You may not like what someone has offered you, but there are people on this board who have extensive knowledge in dealing with these very issues in the US.  You don't have to listen or even post, but you don't get to be rude about it either.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: Davy on Dec 14, 2009, 08:31:31 AM
Wait !  Hold on !

The OP has not been rude in any way.  Nor did he ask about H1N1, dual nationality, the Hague, or even the rights of an unmarried single father.   The OP emphasized it has been a long running legal battle to determine a proper custodial parent.  Needless to say, the child is VULNERABLE in all aspects of life and I am happy for the child that a parent is attempting to protect the child particularly against the possible abuses of "the state".

The OP  simply and kindly asked a perfectly legimate question about preventing the government from medicating a child and we should all be concerned with that issue.  THAT IS THE ISSUE and no one has yet to justify what authorizes the "power of the state" to even register the child in their school let alone force the child to be medicated against the wishes of a parent.

I content the state does not have that authorization or even use the "convenience" of a school district to accomodate their goals as if the children have been designated as "wards of the state".

As example, it took a Federal court to prevent and stop the state of Illinois from abusing Texas children.  Illinois actions were based on socialists policies and excuses while ignoring the rules of law and even accused the father of being against "the peace and dignity of the people of the state " when he was the ONLY civilized one.

Hope you can comprehend and understand.
Title: Re:Helpful information
Post by: 4honor on Dec 14, 2009, 09:33:42 AM
Having dealt with not only the school system, but the doctors when there is joint legal custody and there are disagreements in non-emergency medical and educational decisions, here is our experience. I hope you find it helpful.

In our case, DH had joint legal custody, the court order specifically states that each parent has emergency medical decision making and that they have joint non-emergency decision making. Each parent had the day to day decsion making while in their care. BM who had primary custody decided SS needed to be medicated for attention deficeit hyperactive disorder. Her diagnosis went in search of a doctor willing to write the perscription with little to no testing. The doctor had no medical history on the father and ignored other symptoms that SS had. Dr did a double blind study with 2 evaluations filled out (one from the BM, one from the school.) The school did their supposed evaluation on a day that SS was not in school -- he was out with the chicken pox. It was a mess. And we could not block BM from giving SS the medications for 8 years. The problem was regular medications legally fell into the day to day decision making.

The long and the short of it was that we could not block the doctor from prescribing the medication. We could not block BM from giving SS the medication, but we could withhold it with out repercussions. Eventually, the custody order was modified and wording was put into the order that BM MUST consult with DH prior to any non-emergency medical decision making.

Timing is going to go against you, as in order to block the vaccination, you will need a court order to block. With the holidays so close here in the US, the likelihood of obtaining that order is slim prior to the H1N1 becoming available (and likely utilized by the other parent.)

A hospital, doctor, clinic can treat a child with the permission of one parent, regardless of the wishes of the other parent, even when the parents are in an intact relationship. Only you can determine how your being out of the country effects your situation. The slowness of the courts is likely to be your biggest hurdle.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: mdegol on Dec 14, 2009, 09:48:56 AM
I've got your argument, Davy, but the question really comes down to: What happens when two parent disagree about a medical decision.  If both don't want or want a vaccine, the state does not override that decision (usually....).  When they disagree, that's when we invite the state into our private decisions regarding these issues.  Of course, the state can stop children from attending daycare, school ect, so it is important to keep those issues in mind as well when making those decisions.  Since father is out the country, it is in his interest to see the types of discussions that take place regarding this sensitive issue (I know father doesn't want discussion of that in this forum, but it is a great learning experience for him).

As a result, a discussion about other issues is pertinent to the question.  This father does have to think about these things to get a full answer to likely outcome.

My little piece, depending on how strongly father feels about issue, is that:  There are several factors working against his struggle for joint legal.  Long distance, age of child (thus amount of time mother has had sole legal) to name a couple biggies.  By making an issue, you are showing a third big one, that you are not able to come to agreements with mother in some cases.  Joint legal works when parties agree on (most) joint decisions and are of a like mind.  If you are going to end up in court over these issues, then it may be a reason for the court to go the sole legal route.  Additionally, if mother believes in vaccination, this is going to be a relatively moot point given the age of the child.   

Additionally, as an aside social issue (to inform father) this is a hot button issue in USA right now, so depending on your judge, they may label you a (forgive this term but it makes the point) nutcase, again making them go against joint legal.  Given the proven benefits of vaccination, you are going to have a hard time making a case that you are in the right due to potential and yet unproven significant risks of side effects from vaccine administration. If you could do so, reliably, you are likely to make CNN headlines also. Remember also, the state likes vaccinations.  Judges and courts are members of the state.  I guess what I am saying is: it may not be in your interest to pursue this route if your goal is obtaining joint legal?  Comes down to what is more important to you?  Having a say in her life decisions in the future or do you feel that the risks of vaccination warrent a hot pursuit of this avenue that you are going down?  I understand where you are coming from, since my DH is from out of the country and has strong feelings about this also, but there is an overwelming set of factors in US that are hard to work against when it comes to medical related issues and child custody.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: Davy on Dec 14, 2009, 12:08:11 PM
OK ... just a FEW points to ponder concerning a parent's inquiry to stop government from medicating his child..

I was hoping to explain and assist ... not argue.

16 yo grandson visited TX this weekend from FL.  He told his uncle and I about a separated / cracked shoulder injury he received in a varsity football game (yike ! he was a freshman).  After a long run he was tackled at the 5 and dog piled.  He went to the side line in pain, took off his pads, and the school personnel (coaches) told him to go to the concession stand for some ice.  The lady working the concession stand (probably a parent) took him back to the coaches and told them he needed immediate medical attention.  After the game, one of the coaches wisely took him to his mother (an RN) and he got medical treatment at a hospital.  His child kidnapping grandma has been given custody by the state...own children removed from her and rights terminated to husband's children.  At least the coach knew better than to take him to his grandma.  The point : the lady working the concession stand had to initiate medical treatment ... not the school personnel AND the boys' loving caring  non-custodial mother assured medical treatment NOT the STATE  DESIGNATED "primary" child snatching parent.

There are many medical abuse "realities" at goverment-operated medical facilities (ie VA hospitals).  If I told of personal experiences or what has been witnessed ... .you may think I was exageratering or lying.   The point : mature out-spoken brotherhood of military veterans are constantly protecting themselves and others that may not be able to protect themselves against the government.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: zikzak on Dec 14, 2009, 01:20:21 PM
what would be the mechanism to have a educative, health, religious or any other important system for the development of a child, listen at both parents in case they can't agree on how and what choices they want for a child if there wasn't been any court ruling on the legal custody of the child?

the question is not about if H1N1 vaccination its good or not, it could be also a cancer treatment that one parent refuses by religious or other means to be apply to his/her child, or a educative system (homeschooling vs private schooling), or the approach to a specific religion rather to the one of the other parent (baptist vs Jewish) and the list goes on.


in the end courts most rule about the legal custody of the child.


but what if there is not been a ruling yet, people here say that custody and decisions goes to primary parent, but is there a way to have protected the other parent rights as to oppose or to choose specific decisions that are involved in his/her child's development and that differ of the primary parent?.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: ocean on Dec 14, 2009, 02:44:56 PM
Well...lets just say the parents were married and something came up that they didnt agree....(cancer treatment?) ..the case would go to court to decide who will have medical decisions. There was a big case in the US a few months ago where BOTH parents did not want child to have chemo treatments and child protective services came in and won in court that child WILL have treatment. The mother hid child but later turned herself in and child began treatments.

The only thing you might be able to do is, file in court that the child will not be vaccinated until a hearing date. The courts at that time will make a decision on which parent would make a final decision when both cant agree. Here is the US there is a big list of shots the kids MUST have in order to sign up and stay in public school. The only way out is to prove it is against your religion.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: zikzak on Dec 14, 2009, 02:58:36 PM
** update **


Quote from: ocean on Dec 14, 2009, 02:44:56 PM

Here is the US there is a big list of shots the kids MUST have in order to sign up and stay in public school. The only way out is to prove it is against your religion.





immunization waiver forms are valid in all states in the US if parents do not wish to have their child's vaccinated.

not only religious but philosophical objections are valid to waive this "must" be vaccinated.

and i know that as a fact.


our doctor was so open about this and give us enough info about Avoiding Unwanted Immunizations.


file in court that my child should not be vaccinated until a hearing date sounds a solution.


thanx.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: ocean on Dec 14, 2009, 03:13:27 PM
[SIZE=+1]Not totally true..you have to fill out forms and have them signed...see below...(religious, medical reasons-some children are allergic to things in the shot) The school needs documentation of why child is not being vaccinated.

NewMexico -
Parents have the right to refuse immunizations formedical,religious, or[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]philosophicalreasons. Medical exemptions must be signed by the child's physician[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]onletterheadpaper and a copy sent to the NM Immunization Program.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Religious/philosophical exemption forms must be filled out, officially notarized,and[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]returnedto the NM Immunization Program for filing. A copy will be given to[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]theparentor guardian to present to the school/daycare. Immunization exemption[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]formsmust be renewed and resubmitted every school year.

Washington:

Your Child can be exempted (excused) from immunization for medical, personal or religious reasons. However, if there
is an outbreak of a vaccine-preventable disease that your child has not been immunized against, she or he can be
excluded from school, preschool or child care until the outbreak is over.
[/SIZE]
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: Davy on Dec 15, 2009, 03:59:07 PM
FYI ... 800,000 Doses of Children's H1N1 Vaccine Recalled

The REAL QUESTION OR ISSUE is : should any school district be allowed to conveniently herd children together for the purpose of medicating them. 

The person that was allowed to register the child(ren) in the school may :

-- NOT be the parent.

-- NOT possess a court order.

-- NOT have a valid or current court order.

-- NOT be mentally stable. 

... and the child(ren) may be the subject of a search by the bio parent(s) and/or legal proceedings in a proper far-away jurisdiction.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: MomofTwo on Dec 15, 2009, 05:30:55 PM
The vaccines were recalled due to the vaccine had lost strength, NOT due to safety.

The poster already said the person who registered the child is Mom.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: Davy on Dec 15, 2009, 05:52:03 PM
......... and a school district did not know of today's recall or future recalls when they herded the innocent children together AND they may not know (and they probably did not care) that the registrant was a parent

and 800,000 doses were not recalled in any one school district either

next time it may be a recall of 5 million doses after killing 2.5 million children

and the mother or father can not pull the child from the school because they don't know where the child is located .

Moreover the OP and others may like to know the position he and his child find themselves should not be considered normal or acceptable.   
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: ocean on Dec 16, 2009, 04:52:05 AM
Once again it is NOT the school giving these out...it is the local health department offering them AT the school so they get to the most kids the fastest. The letter comes from the health department through the school. Any parent/guardian can say no to the shot. They are not being herded in. The posters issue is he is not considered a legal parent at this time.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: MomofTwo on Dec 16, 2009, 06:16:10 AM
and he knows where his child is...

He has already said the child was born in the United States, poster hasn't seen his child in four years, he has never said he has been kept from the child - he moved out of the country ...and they were not married and he is fighting for shared legal custody, which means he doesn't have it now.

So, who in your opinion should be responsible for making decisions regarding the child's health and welfare?   He has said the child lives with the mother. The person that is there every day with the child providing for and taking care of her or someone thousands of miles away who hasn't seen his child?





Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: Davy on Dec 16, 2009, 08:09:05 AM
Sorry !  The legal statues are clear and ya'll are reguritating benign social policies.

A state has no authority to determine and provide the medical care of a child based on local school district personnel's designation of a legal parent.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: zikzak on Dec 16, 2009, 11:39:41 AM
Quote from: MomofTwo on Dec 16, 2009, 06:16:10 AM
So, who in your opinion should be responsible for making decisions regarding the child's health and welfare? He has said the child lives with the mother. The person that is there every day with the child providing for and taking care of her or someone thousands of miles away who hasn't seen his child?



you are judging with out knowing the whole story, anyway there is laws that protect the parenting rights of both parents and the child, being miles away could mean Hawaii, Alaska or another country this is not relevant and definitely can't determine the legal custody of any of both parents.(as in my case)


knowing where my child is won't make me part of her life or be part of important decisions for her development.


em i the only single long distance parent? of course not.


thats why there is protection of my rights and those of the child and the state in any form school or medical should wait for the legal resolution to know who has what in terms of responsibilities over a child.

vaccination is not and will not be mandatory and it's up to the parents decide if they wanted or not and school being the one that apply the shot in representation of health department should wait till court rule on the legal custody of the child.


if i was married and we have joint legal custody of the child and can't agree on the vaccination we take this to court and perhaps it will be too late, when court decides that the seasonal vaccination campaign ends.


there is no yet any ruling about the legal custody therefor I'm still hold the rights for my child whether i live in china or in the state next door.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: MomofTwo on Dec 16, 2009, 12:13:48 PM
Sorry, but to blunt, you are wrong with your saying you have legal custody. Unless a court has given that to you, you don't have it, and no, the school has no reason to wait for a custodial determination that could take months or years.  They have what they need, Mom's consent.   Everything you said is not relevant, is very relevant and most likely will be a factor in the custody determination.  You are kidding yourself if you believe otherwise. Best of luck to you.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: zikzak on Dec 16, 2009, 12:35:51 PM
being the US a signatory state of the Hague convention, is safe to say that this legal custody case it's based in two countries and the child has the protection of both nations so do the parents.


so far i have legal rights as a parent an till there is no court in any of both countries saying the contrary my child and both parents are protected under those same laws.


please understand that i have legal custody of the child right now as in the terms of my country laws and the Hague convention protects also those rights.


court can and will in my case decide if i keep my parenting rights or i loose them, but as today i have the legal custody of my child.

it would help lots if you explain in more detail how in terms of the US law i will not have legal custody of the child, as today because there has not being any court giving me that.

the mother consent will not and can't give any power to the state on decisions that belong to both parents till court says so.

another question rise here, as in my status today. what will be the same issue under emergency medical procedures.


do the hospital need both parents consent before any proceedings?
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: Kitty C. on Dec 16, 2009, 01:13:52 PM
'there is no yet any ruling about the legal custody therefor I'm still hold the rights for my child whether i live in china or in the state next door.'

I agree with MomforTwo..........if you don't know US Family Law, you obviously don't know what your rights are in the US.  No jurisdiction in this country will recognize you as a parent and give you equal legal rights until you obtain that through a US court, period.  So basically the ONLY issue here is legal custody, who has it and who doesn't.  Because the child and mother are in the US and you aren't.........and nothing has been established in a US court regarding legal custody of your case.......ONLY the mother is recognized as a legal parent to this child....to ANY entity.

But if you don't believe us, contact a family law atty., preferably in the state that the mother and child reside in, and ask them if you have any legal rights regarding the child.  They will tell you the same thing.

'so far i have legal rights as a parent an till there is no court in any of both countries saying the contrary my child and both parents are protected under those same laws.'  No, you do NOT......that is not how child custody works in the US, Hague Convention or not.   

Let me try to explain it another way........even IF you were a US citizen and had a child out of wedlock, even then you would not have any rights to the child and say-so over what happens to him/her until you go to court and get it.  Being a citizen of another country is no different.

Once you have joint legal custody established in the US, then and only then will you have the right to have a say on what happens to your child, regarding education, medical, and anything else that is included in the custody order.  Then you can deal with the issue that brought you here in the first place.  It's called 'getting your ducks in a row'......work on the issues in the order that they need to be addressed.  FIRST, you need to establish legal custody in a US court, THEN you can address the vaccination issue when you have the legal voice to do so.  We can't make it any plainer than that.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: zikzak on Dec 16, 2009, 01:47:39 PM
it is clear to me that US family law do defer from other countries but that does not take away my rights as a parent with my children in my country American or what ever jurisdiction children is.

Hague convention deal with the return of the minor to his/her residence and also with visitation issues.


my questions are not out of disbelieve but out of ignorance from the US family law so there is no need to say that if i don't believe you have to go and ask a lawyer.


a US court or any other court in the world that apply to my case can take away my rights, but in my country i have my rights as a parent protected till there is no court on the child's jurisdiction saying the contrary.


visitation among with other issues involves 2 countries, under family law in the US im not recognized as a parent yet, in my country i am.

now it's up to the court decide if recognize me or not based on the hearing(s) in the US and that then will decide on my parenting status on the jurisdiction on my own country.


now i have a question left what about emergencies?

do hospital need my approval for any proceedings?
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: mdegol on Dec 16, 2009, 02:22:16 PM
By emergencies do you mean:  Child is in car accident-Will they wait for your permission to treat?  No, emergency treatment is admistered to save lives, cannot for obvious reasons worry about the legalities of custody (or else children would die everyday, right?), and does not require permission. Non-emergency treatment would require your permission in most cases.  Your distance is one of the reasons that could be argued for withholding legal custody, since it will be difficult for you to make accurate determinations without "seeing" the situation firsthand.  You do not have legal custody in the US right now.  Your country may be different.  There is every type of law that one could imagine in this world when it comes to child custody, and maybe you are from a place that fathers have final say in all aspects of their children's lives automatically, married or unmarried.  What country are you in, if you don't mind disclosing the info?

PS: Right now, as things stand, you have no legal standing in any decision, so until that final court ruling, mother alone makes all decisions.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: Davy on Dec 16, 2009, 02:39:39 PM
Zikzak is correct !!

Kitty / Ocean ... none of us know the details of these parents or the child to be making bold jurisdictional determinations.  In a somewhat like situation between states I was the only parent "anywhere in the world" with the legal authority to make determinations for my children (barring a disastor or emergency).   Certainly not a state governing body without jurisdiction and it is moot for the wrongful parent attempting to execise authority in a governing body without jurisdiction to make valid custody orders.


If the state refuses to stop their illegal acts against the children and parent then a higher court (ie Federal) must step in to force the offending party(s).   That was the defined legal proceedure used in my case.  You may want to know that my authority as a parent was all that was necessary to make that happen....
and for the sake of children the state and it's operatives (ie local school authorities, daycare, etc) must acknowledge that children do not belong to them.  It is the parent(s) authority and responsibility to protect their children from 'the state' and a wrongful parent or stangers.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: Kitty C. on Dec 16, 2009, 07:13:01 PM
Davy, I'm not going to argue the point with you, but only state the facts:  the OP has stated numerous times that he has no legal custody through a US court, that it is currently in the process.  He's no different that an unwed father who has not established paternity and obtained a custody order in that he has NO legal say-so in what happens to his child.  Once he establishes legal custody here in the US, then he has EVERY right to have a voice in what happens to his child. Those are the facts, period.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: Davy on Dec 17, 2009, 12:32:20 AM
Kitty... you say you are not going to argue and then proceed to be argumentitive and claiming what you are saying is factual.  Is there anyway you can clarify or justify.

The OP has stated numerous times that he is a legal parent in his country so it follows that he does not need a US court to make a custody determination.  The OP is waiting to see if the US court will accept his country determination as provided by the full faith and credit provisions of our uniform acts just like the standards between two states. Agreements reached between two countries also come into play.   

A parents behavior ... ie forum shopping or hiding a child, etc is intended to be a consideration under the statues.  Just FYI.  I did read that 23 states may have removed the international full faith and credit provisions from recent revisions of the uniform acts (probably UCCJEA).  It is possible for the other parent not to be considered the pimary or proper parent.

The OP has also indicated it has been a long running battle with attempts to meditate and work with other parent and shown legimate concern for a child that has been kept from him for numerous years.   

We just do not know enough about the details of this case to be makig negative inferences toward a parent fighting for their child and I'm certainly not being argumentative.

BTW, did you see the news report today where a parent waving an old invalid custody order gained the assistance of the police to pull a sceaming child from a school bus and re-kidnap to another country ?? ..... relevant to this thread.   
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: MomofTwo on Dec 17, 2009, 04:43:40 AM
You are right, the incident with the little boy on the school bus is relevant to this thread.  That father lied in court saying he had custody in his country so he could gain custody in the US.  He didn't have custody in the US until it was given to him.  Till that time, he had no custodial rights.  Now, that father is wanted on kidnapping charges.  That incident is heartbreaking to watch and any caring parent would never have subjected that little boy to him being retrieved in that manner.

In your own words you said "The OP is waiting to see if the US court will accept his country determination...." so simply put, until such time, he has no custodial rights in the United States.

You are very assumptive...the poster has never said the child's parent has kept him from seeing the child.

It would help poster if you stated all relevant facts.

Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: mdegol on Dec 17, 2009, 06:40:38 AM
Poster did state that child was born in US.  We don't know if poster returned to country or if mother came to US after pregancy but before birth.  It may be (not saying that it IS) that visitation has been limited due a fear of child being taken to father's country.  That would be rather concerning if father has a custody order valid in his country.  Especially if mother would normally be awarded custody according to US standards.  Other countries have custody provisions that are wildly different than US.  In some, woman are not allowed to be custodians, period.  So having more info from poster would help a lot.  There's just not enough info to give reliable advice so that poster has reasonable expections of outcome.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: zikzak on Dec 17, 2009, 11:45:21 AM
Quote from: mdegol on Dec 17, 2009, 06:40:38 AM
So having more info from poster would help a lot. There's just not enough info to give reliable advice so that poster has reasonable expections of outcome.


don't fool yourself read please all my post in this thread and you will find out i have give more info than needed AGAIN please bear in mind that this is an issue of H1N1 vaccination no other than that claiming that you don't have enough info it's just a lie.


Quote from: MomofTwo on Dec 17, 2009, 04:43:40 AM

You are very assumptive...the poster has never said the child's parent has kept him from seeing the child.


wrong again READ all the postings is not that hard i said it's been 4 years since i don't see my child so stop saying there is not enough info on my situation.


you assume things and then come here saying that it's all so wrong that this father kidnap his son, but if it's a mom then it's OK to no let the father see his children and of course because we live in 2 different countries it's more than OK to not have the father be part of any decisions on his child's life and guess what that is not a kidnap either.


as long as the child has my name and it's registered in my country the child and i are protected under my county laws, of course they don't apply to the US but vice versa the current legal situation of my child in the US (as me not having legal custody until court grants me that) don't apply in my country I'm trying to have the court rule on the legal custody of my child as today i hold the legal custody in my country and both central authorities recognize that but there has to be a court granting me that in the US for me to be able to exercise my parenting rights and this can be only happening through a parenting plan that court has to establish with both parents.


so if today my child comes to my country i have legal rights upon my child that wont mean i can keep my child in my country against the mother or child's will, but means that my country acknowledge my legal custody and my parenting rights.

now in the US the mother don't have to and it's not recognizing my legal custody but i believe the state has to stop any decisions mother takes more if they go against the other parent will.

now one country says both parents hold legal custody of the child, the other country says till court says so both have joint legal custody, central authorities of both countries help in the process of establishing the custody where child lives but main focus it's to find and return the minor to his/her country of residence.


now today i can say school stop vaccination to my child till there is a court decision on the legal custody, because they like me or don't understand the law in the US , my child didn't receive the H1N1 vaccination the only thing i did was to speak with the principal.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: Kitty C. on Dec 17, 2009, 02:20:43 PM
One sentence, bottom line:  Contact an attorney in the state the mother and child reside in and ask the same questions you have here.

I'm sorry we can't give you the answers you want, but that's LIFE.  All of us here who have responded to you are basing our information on YEARS worth of legal wranglings of our own.  You may very well have legal custody if the child were in your country right now, but that's not the case.  This child is a natural born US citizen, by your statement.  So you have to deal with the US court system to get ANY rights, just like any other un-wed father (of a US-born resident child) here in the US or abroad.
Title: Re: H1N1 vaccination custody issue.
Post by: zikzak on Dec 17, 2009, 02:34:00 PM
there has been a lot of talking and then bottom line is contact an atorney?


ocean did give an answer.