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Main Forums => Visitation Issues => Topic started by: Samson2005 on Apr 29, 2006, 10:11:49 AM

Title: Child Ditches Me - Cops Are Barriers
Post by: Samson2005 on Apr 29, 2006, 10:11:49 AM
My BF has terminal cancer with 1-2 months to live. Amazingly, he is up and about. He loves his only grand child very much but rarely sees her. We had plans to be together this weekend.

I usually pick BD up at school because if I don't, BM will hide her from me. When BD did not come out of the school, I call the office and they say that BM removed her early but did not know why or at what time.

No one could be found or would answer any of their phones.

I go to the police station to explain the situation to an officer. I asked him to do a welfare check and he refused.

The officer was aggressive and provocative and tried to play on my feelings.  

There is a copy of my court order and (720 ILCS 5/10-5.5) Sec. 10-5.5. "Unlawful visitation interference." on file in that station. I asked him if he had seen it. He said that the statute does not require him to do anything. He leaned to me with his hand in my face and told me not to tell him how to do his job.

He told me that I had been told already by another officer that I WAS REQUIRED BY THIS POLICE DEPARTMENT (or at least officers 1 and 2) to go to court and get a NEW order. He acted like I was in trouble with HIM for not obeying. He continued to test me to see how far he could intimidate me. (If these cops are like this to everyone, that community is not safe and is probably being exploited)

I told the cop that the judge said that the order is good for 18-21 years as is. He ignored me.

He went on to say that my daughter (12 years old) is getting old enough to decide where she is going to be and there is nothing I or anyone can do about it.

When I left, the cops face was red and he was very emotional. It was a very unpleasant and disturbing experience for me as well. I was afraid for my safety.

The police there were always very nice until about the last 3 or 4 years. I don't feel like they would protect me or my daughter there anymore.

The police have effectivly become a barrier to the enforcement of law.

Any advice or kind words?
Title: RE: Child Ditches Me - Cops Are Barriers
Post by: MixedBag on Apr 29, 2006, 03:16:08 PM
Cops enforce criminal law.

Family courts and judges enforce civil law.

Your divorce decree is civil, not criminal.

That's why you need to go to court to get enforcement.

So, it goes back to the question:

What's in the order -- like post the exact text that allows you to pick up your daughter from school.

If BM isn't allowing you to have your daughter when the order says, then you must file contempt in court and follow that route.

And sorry to read about your father....that's just sad.
Title: RE: Child Ditches Me - Cops Are Barriers
Post by: Samson2005 on Apr 29, 2006, 05:21:43 PM
720 ILCS 5/10-5.5) Sec. 10-5.5. Unlawful visitation interference, makes the interference a criminal offence (petty offense, like speeding).

My order states that every other weekend, at the time school dismisses, she is to be with me.

Thank you for the reply.

(720 ILCS 5/10-5.5)
    Sec. 10-5.5. Unlawful visitation interference.
    (a) As used in this Section, the terms "child", "detain", and "lawful custodian" shall have the meanings ascribed to them in Section 9.5 of this Code.
    (b) Every person who, in violation of the visitation provisions of a court order relating to child custody, detains or conceals a child with the intent to deprive another person of his or her rights to visitation shall be guilty of unlawful visitation interference.
    (c) A person committing unlawful visitation interference is guilty of a petty offense. However, any person violating this Section after 2 prior convictions of unlawful visitation interference is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
    (d) Any law enforcement officer who has probable cause to believe that a person has committed or is committing an act in violation of this Section shall issue to that person a notice to appear.
    (e) The notice shall:
        (1) be in writing;
        (2) state the name of the person and his address, if  
     known;
 
        (3) set forth the nature of the offense;
        (4) be signed by the officer issuing the notice; and
        (5) request the person to appear before a court at a  
     certain time and place.
 
    (f) Upon failure of the person to appear, a summons or warrant of arrest may be issued.
    (g) It is an affirmative defense that:
        (1) a person or lawful custodian committed the act  
     to protect the child from imminent physical harm, provided that the defendant's belief that there was physical harm imminent was reasonable and that the defendant's conduct in withholding visitation rights was a reasonable response to the harm believed imminent;
 
        (2) the act was committed with the mutual consent of  
     all parties having a right to custody and visitation of the child; or
 
        (3) the act was otherwise authorized by law.
    (h) A person convicted of unlawful visitation interference shall not be subject to a civil contempt citation for the same conduct for violating visitation provisions of a court order issued under the Illinois Marriage and Dissolution of Marriage Act.
(Source: P.A. 88‑96.)  
Title: RE: Child Ditches Me - Cops Are Barriers
Post by: MixedBag on May 01, 2006, 03:28:16 PM
Please explain to me HOW the cop is supposed to know that it's YOUR weekend to have your daughter?

(I'm playing devil's advocate here -- so you get the picture.)

Answer:  You do this 3 weekends in a row with the SAME police officer and by the third weekend, surely you should have had her.

Then again -- it's May -- and Mom is probably supposed to have her for Mother's Day.

In April, Easter would have been thrown into the mix.

In June, Father's Day...

In July, 4th of July...

See your order is vague and that's why IMHO they won't get involved.
Title: RE: Child Ditches Me - Cops Are Barriers
Post by: Samson2005 on May 02, 2006, 06:20:45 PM
the cop said that the law does not require him to do anything no matter what.

this about the times is an argument that can be made, but, at some point, the police are supposed to believe victims and witnesses, when it comes time to enforce laws.

Alot of people would be disappointed after a charge of theft was made and the cop told them that he/she would not enforce the law because the victim did not have a reciept to prove ownership of the item to begin with..............
Title: RE: Child Ditches Me - Cops Are Barriers
Post by: Samson2005 on May 02, 2006, 06:38:22 PM
I guess this would be a good place to insert the definition of "probablt cause"

PROBABLE CAUSE - A reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime. The test the court of appeals employs to determine whether probable cause existed for purposes of arrest is whether facts and circumstances within the officer's knowledge are sufficient to warrant a prudent person to believe a suspect has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime. U.S. v. Puerta, 982 F.2d 1297, 1300 (9th Cir. 1992). In terms of seizure of items, probable cause merely requires that the facts available to the officer warrants a "man of reasonable caution" to conclude that certain items may be contraband or stolen property or useful as evidence of a crime. U.S. v. Dunn, 946 F.2d 615, 619 (9th Cir. 1991), cert. Denied, 112 S. Ct. 401 (1992).

It is undisputed that the Fourth Amendment, applicable to the states through the Fourteenth Amendment, prohibits an officer from making an arrest without probable cause. McKenzie v. Lamb, 738 F.2d 1005, 1007 (9th Cir. 1984). Probable cause exists when "the facts and circumstances within the arresting officer's knowledge are sufficient to warrant a prudent person to believe that a suspect has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime." United States v. Hoyos, 892 F.2d 1387, 1392 (9th Cir. 1989), cert. denied, 489 U.S. 825 (1990) (citing United States v. Greene, 783 F.2d 1364, 1367 (9th Cir. 1986), cert. denied, 476 U.S. 1185 (1986)).

When there are grounds for suspicion that a person has committed a crime or misdemeanor, and public justice and the good of the community require that the matter should be examined, there is said to be a probable cause for, making a charge against the accused, however malicious the intention of the accuser may have been. And probable cause will be presumed till the contrary appears.

In an action, then, for a malicious prosecution, the plaintiff is bound to show total absence of probable cause, whether the original proceedings were civil or criminal.
   --b--THE 'LECTRIC LAW LIBRARY(tm)
Title: RE: Child Ditches Me - Cops Are Barriers
Post by: MixedBag on May 03, 2006, 06:43:42 PM
If you truly believe that the police officers can do something, then go up their chain of command to supervisors and in the end, the mayor.

Title: RE: Child Ditches Me - Cops Are Barriers
Post by: Samson2005 on May 06, 2006, 05:05:50 PM
"If you truly believe that the police officers can do something,"

I think they are obligated by law to do what the statute says. "Will they do something?" seems to be the test.  What does a person do when laws to protect people are being ignored? Working up the chain seems to make sense, but, that will be stepping on alot of toes to do it. The police have already expressed a willingness to be confrontational over me wanting what is mine.
Title: RE: Child Ditches Me - Cops Are Barriers
Post by: MixedBag on May 09, 2006, 05:23:51 PM
then confront...
Title: You are misinterpreting the law
Post by: 4honor on May 10, 2006, 08:45:41 AM
It may not be fair, but that's the way it is.

Sure, a court order is a law unto you and BM. However, you have a vague order. It is very hard to enforce a vague order. It is considered manifestly unjust to hold a person to a law that is on its surface unclear. There are too many variables for a police officer to do ANYTHING with it. And claiming Visitation Interference is not applicable, because you must have an order specific enough by which to measure if the PRESENT time period you are seeking to get your child is the ACTUAL time period you are entitled to have her. They must also SEE the crime of visitation interference taking place to enforce the law. All they see is you waving papers in their faces. I'd be mad too.

The police cannot do anything to BM because your order is vague ---leaving the order open to interpretation -- and any variance in interpretation is "given" to the non-moving party, which in this case would be BM, since you would be the one asserting your rights.

The police are pissed because you are trying to enforce "a law unto BM" without it having any teeth. The police told you how to give them something to go on and now you are just pissing them off over and over wasting their time with an order that has more holes than a fishing net.

Go get the order clarified, as it isn't working. The old every other weekend wording is useless. It needs to define a weekend. It needs to define how to determine whether a weekend is in one month or the next. You want 1st 3rd and 5th weekends. (Which will increase time slightly over EOW). You want the child to be made available for your pickup from her school at 3:01 PM during the school year. You want to make the child available for pick up at 6 PM Sunday evenings. You want to spell out the exact schedule. You also want to spell out the procedure by which to make one time changes and trades in case of emergencies, illnesses and school related obligations.

You need to take this back to court -- which you  appear intelligent enough to do pro se if need be -- for a clarification.

Between now and then, you need to document the lack of contact with your daughter. You are stuck with this until you do, cause the police are right, they cannot help you and going over their heads is only going to make you a "ticket target".
Title: RE: You are misinterpreting the law
Post by: Finnchadh on May 12, 2006, 09:02:29 AM
Ok – just how hard do you want to press this?  While I do not have access to the code you quoted – believe you live in the State of IL – in Ga contempt is either criminal or civil depending on its application.  Also in questions of probably cause – if you are authorized visitation and denied that visitation consistent with the statute you quoted; it may be up to you to establish probable cause.  This might be accomplished by a sworn affidavit [stating that this is your time for visitation and you have not agreed to allow the other parent to hive this time and a certified copy of your DD] presented to the Police Department and swear out a complaint consistent with that code section.  If the police refuse to allow you to make such a complaint; consider employing the services of a Private Investigator to act as a witness or the services of an attorney as an officer of the court to substantiate your submissions.  If the police refuse to act consistent with the provisions of the statute –[ basically give the offender a ticket with a date to appear in court – this is analogous to a speeding ticket where the officer as witness to the offence of speeding is making an allegation against you as the speeder ] -  and you can document their failure or refusal – you might consider making a 18 USC 242 complaint to the FBI or Assistant US Attorney’s office.  Like I said – how hard do you want to press this issue?  BTW I am not an attorney and you should not consider this legal advice.  I am encouraging you to study, listen, ask questions, think and then - make a decision.    

Ignorance is a prison – knowledge and understanding are your keys to freedom.
Title: RE: You are misinterpreting the law
Post by: Samson2005 on May 15, 2006, 02:41:05 PM
The judge that issued the visitation order says that it is absolutely enforcable. What judge is going to issue orders that are unenforcable? What would be the motivation?

I spent $75,000 for an order that isn't worth the paper it's written on? and now I need to spend more to fix it? Did anybody else get a whiff of that?

Why do I need to spend my money to see that the public law is enforced?

I want my money back for being issued an order that is unenforcable. Does anybody know how I would go about getting that done?

Seriously, I would like to press this issue all the way through. This is a disgrace to everyone.

TITLE 18, U.S.C., SECTION 242 is very interesting. I have been in contact with representatives about this and they choose to ignore it as well.
Title: RE: You are misinterpreting the law
Post by: MixedBag on May 16, 2006, 07:44:16 PM
Your order has been signed by a judge in civil or family court.

Therefore, it has to be enforced in a civil court.

Title 18 -- and this is just because I don't have time to look it up -- is probably a CRIMINAL code reference and that can be enforced by police officers.

Your order is not public law.

When state codes refer to "custody" in criminal statutes, it's when "other than parents" interfere with the parent's rights to maintain custody of their children.  Like when a kidnapper takes them, or another person just plain ole detains them.
Title: RE: You are misinterpreting the law
Post by: Samson2005 on May 16, 2006, 10:50:41 PM
Thank you for your input.  I must disagree with you, though.

The statute states that, "(b) Every person who, in violation of the visitation provisions of a court order relating to child custody, detains or conceals a child with the intent to deprive another person of his or her rights to visitation shall be guilty of unlawful visitation interference." and appears to directly include -anyone- who might be in violation.

If the State's Compiled Statutes are not Public Law, then what is?

I do not believe that there is a wall between civil jurisdiction and criminal jurisdiction when criminal laws are broken. There is not supposed to be protection like that.

Title: Title 18 USC Chapter 13, Section 242....
Post by: MixedBag on May 17, 2006, 06:22:10 AM
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 13 > § 242 Prev | Next

§ 242. Deprivation of rights under color of law

 
Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or to different punishments, pains, or penalties, on account of such person being an alien, or by reason of his color, or race, than are prescribed for the punishment of citizens, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if bodily injury results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.

This is the Title 18 that I found that you referenced.....not sure how you think it applies in your case.
 
Title: Back to the IL Reference
Post by: MixedBag on May 17, 2006, 06:35:20 AM
found it on the net.

(720 ILCS 5/10-5.5)
    Sec. 10-5.5. Unlawful visitation interference.
    (a)  As used in this  Section,  the  terms  "child",  "detain",  and
"lawful  custodian"  shall have the meanings ascribed to them in Section
10-5 of this Code.

AND THAT was:

 (a)  For purposes of this Section, the following  terms  shall  have
the following meanings:
         (1)  "Child"  means  a person under the age of 18 or a severely
    or profoundly mentally retarded  person  at  the  time  the  alleged
    violation occurred; and
         (2)  "Detains"  means taking or retaining physical custody of a
    child, whether or not the child resists or objects; and
         (3)  "Lawful custodian" means a person or persons granted legal
    custody of a child or entitled to physical  possession  of  a  child
    pursuant  to  a  court order.  It is presumed that, when the parties
    have never been married to each other, the mother has legal  custody
    of  the  child  unless  a valid court order states otherwise.  If an
    adjudication of paternity has been completed and the father has been
    assigned support obligations or visitation rights, such a  paternity
    order should, for the purposes of this Section be considered a valid
    court order granting custody to the mother.

Back to 5.5

    (b)  Every person who, in violation of the visitation provisions  of
a  court  order  relating  to child custody, detains or conceals a child
with the intent to deprive another  person  of  his  or  her  rights  to
visitation shall be guilty of unlawful visitation interference.
    (c)  A  person committing unlawful visitation interference is guilty
of a petty offense.  However, any person violating this Section after  2
prior  convictions  of  unlawful  visitation interference is guilty of a
Class A misdemeanor.
    (d)  Any law enforcement officer who has probable cause  to  believe
that a person has committed or is committing an act in violation of this
Section shall issue to that person a notice to appear.
    (e)  The notice shall:
         (1)  be in writing;
         (2)  state the name of the person and his address, if known;
         (3)  set forth the nature of the offense;
         (4)  be signed by the officer issuing the notice; and
         (5)  request  the  person to appear before a court at a certain
    time and place.
    (f)  Upon failure of the person to appear, a summons or  warrant  of
arrest may be issued.
    (g)  It is an affirmative defense that:
         (1)  a  person or lawful custodian committed the act to protect
    the child from imminent physical harm, provided that the defendant's
    belief that there was physical harm imminent was reasonable and that
    the defendant's conduct  in  withholding  visitation  rights  was  a
    reasonable response to the harm believed imminent;
         (2)  the  act  was  committed  with  the  mutual consent of all
    parties having a right to custody and visitation of the child; or
         (3)  the act was otherwise authorized by law.
    (h)  A person convicted of unlawful  visitation  interference  shall
not  be  subject  to  a civil contempt citation for the same conduct for
violating visitation provisions  of  a  court  order  issued  under  the
Illinois Marriage and Dissolution of Marriage Act.
(Source: P.A. 88-96.)

http://web.usf.edu/~honors/Website/current/StudentWebs/Kidnapping/Illinois_Statutes.html

And so, I go back to what I said in the other thread of our conversation.

You have a VAGUE order as to when you are supposed to have time with your child.

Actually, let me post this and go back and read through that conversation.
Title: O.K., read through that.
Post by: MixedBag on May 17, 2006, 06:39:14 AM
and you went to the "Probable Cause" argument.

I still say that you're not getting anywhere because your order is vague.

Police deal with too many unjustified complaints that can't be followed through in a courtroom, so they will sometimes err on the side of caution in some cases.

Get your order clarifed and specific.

Then go back and hammer it out.

Or rather if you feel you've got enough right now, go up the chain of command until someone listens....everyone works for someone...

Title: RE: O.K., read through that.
Post by: Samson2005 on May 17, 2006, 12:54:53 PM
Do you think the 2 law firms and the judge all knowingly dispensed an unenforcable order? Shouldn't they know one when they see it, being that is their specialty?

Are the lawyers and judges dispensing bad orders knowing they will see the folk back soon to pay to resolve the issues of the deficiant orders?

What would be the motve to dispense unenforcable orders? Knowledge that people bleed more money at the courthouse as repeat customers?

Should I believe my lawyer and judge or the beat cop?
Title: O.K., NOW you're getting real argumentative
Post by: MixedBag on May 17, 2006, 01:14:31 PM
and your sarcasm is noted and will be ignored.

Mainly because it seems as if you'd rather complain here than take action.

Judges sign orders with the hopes that they will be followed.  

If they are not followed which is what you allege, then file a "Motion for Contempt" in the judge's courtroom so that he can see that the order that HE signed isn't being followed as he (or SHE for that matter) ordered.

"the beat cop?"  -- go above that police offer's head IN WRITING to the chief of police and quote your statutes along with a copy of your current order.

And if the chief of police doesn't answer you -- go to his boss (probably the mayor) etc....and since it's a state law, you can also contact the DA's office who prosecutes criminal laws.

Many of us end up with court orders that are vague even though we've done our best at the time of the divorce to make it specific.  You can be angry all you want -- but the trick is to take that negative energy you feel and to take some action to get positive results.

Then come back and share the results of your actions with all of us so that we can learn from each other's experiences.
Title: RE: O.K., NOW you're getting real argumentative
Post by: Samson2005 on May 18, 2006, 06:31:14 PM
>and your sarcasm is noted and will be ignored.
>
>Mainly because it seems as if you'd rather complain here than
>take action.
>

I appreciate your responses but they have not answered the questions about abuse of the process.

I sincerely believe that causing people to return to court over problems that should have been forseen is a disgrace to everyone, especially to those they claim to protect.
Title: RE: O.K., NOW you're getting real argumentative
Post by: ilovemysd on May 19, 2006, 09:20:57 AM
>>and your sarcasm is noted and will be ignored.
>>
>>Mainly because it seems as if you'd rather complain here
>than
>>take action.
>>
>
>I appreciate your responses but they have not answered the
>questions about abuse of the process.
>
>I sincerely believe that causing people to return to court
>over problems that should have been forseen is a disgrace to
>everyone, especially to those they claim to protect.

Actually, she is answering your questions.  The abuse of the process is the disgrace, and it is something that each and every poster at the site has dealt with.

Judges sign unenforceable orders every day.  Sometimes it is because they expect people to behave like grownups, sometimes it is because lawyers write up bad orders, sometimes it is because they just don't care.  Judges are not mind readers, and cannot predict that someone will argue over a preposition in an order, or that a situation that was not anticipated in the original order will develop.  They have next to no statutes which actually deal with what they are to decide, and therefore are left without a policy, without a procedure.

Our orders say that ncp has phone contact w/dd two specific days a week, starting at a specific time, and states that dd must pick up telephone and talk to ncp.  Of course, there is nothing in the order saying that dd should be at home for the call, in a quiet place where her family members are not interrupting her, telling her to get off the phone, where there aren't distractions that are more fun than talking to ncp.  We've called and had them be out to dinner at Friendly's, out shopping for a new coat, at the movies with friends... The order is straightforward, but doesn't provide for cp to play games if she wants.  

Order says ncp is to have dd EOW.  So, the police know what every other weekend is?  Sure, the order says EOW, but it could be from three years ago, with mutual agreement make-up time included, so how do the police know whether the EOW is still the way it was at the signing of the order?  

Vacation time is almost always arranged between parents with given amount of notice... how do the police know what the entire path of correspondence was?  So, you've got a letter stating your intent to exercise... how do they know that you're not hiding a letter you sent that says you changed your mind?  That you request another date...?  The only way to find out is to knock on your child's door and question the cp... now you've got your kid square in the middle of a situation, the kids get the idea that cops are there to tear them away from the families, and that they are the bad guys...

Trust me, as a sm whose sd was kept from the family for 6 months on false allegations of mental (not physical) abuse, I understand how frustrating it is to go to police and not have them enforce an order that seems to be straightforward, but they are there to protect all parties, ncp, cp, and children, and it is close to impossible for them to do that when they have make value judgements on what is right and what wrong...  a police officer is there to keep the peace.

The answer to your questions is not to moan about how wrong the system is, the answer is that you need to file a motion to clarify everything that you are having problems with.  The police have told you that they cannot easily enforce what you are showing them - come back with something better.  They have told you how to help them help you and you steadfastly refuse to do it, instead arguing about how they _should_ do what you want them to...

So, you have options... file the motion, contact your legislators, and seek to improve the system.  This is what the people here have chosen to do... they do not sit on their tushes complaining about how life is unfair... while you do that, your kid, and all of our kids, suffer.

Title: RE: O.K., NOW you're getting real argumentative
Post by: Samson2005 on May 25, 2006, 01:25:02 PM
how vague is this: "Father chooses four weeks of the summer break and notifies Mother in writing by May 15 each year." that is how summer beaks are decided. When I choose the first week of june, last week of june, first week of july, first week of august. Is that being vague? When I miss thos times, they refuse to enforce it.
Title: RE: O.K., NOW you're getting real argumentative
Post by: MixedBag on May 25, 2006, 05:08:33 PM
Because how is a cop supposed to know that she received the notification?

You have too many documents to put together and then how is the cop supposed to know that you're working off the most recent order?

Go back to court and file a motion to show cause for missed time with your children.

When you don't get your time this summer after notifying mom, file another motion for missed time and make up time.

Title: RE: O.K., NOW you're getting real argumentative
Post by: smtotwo on May 25, 2006, 07:05:52 PM
DH's order is VERY specific.   Right down to pick up and drop off times.

Guess what??  We havent seen his kids for 5 FIVE 5 weeks.  

Mommy dearest moved AGAIN, 3rd time in last 12 months with no notice to DH.  

We cant even have her served papers for contempt because we  dont know where she is!!
Title: RE: O.K., NOW you're getting real argumentative
Post by: Samson2005 on May 25, 2006, 07:46:21 PM
<"Because how is a cop supposed to know that she received the

Your opinion of the police's duties are VERY blurred into the judge's.

With an approach like that, EVERY rule and law could easily be broken "legally."  

If our police interpreted every law that way, this could be an unsafe place to live.



smtotwo, You are in my prayers.
Title: RE: O.K., NOW you're getting real argumentative
Post by: MixedBag on May 26, 2006, 07:37:44 AM
point is that this original poster needs to file in civil court and do something at this point.

He's saying that the cops should/could enforce his order because IL statutes cover this....but his order isn't specific.

Most cops won't enforce and keep divorce which is civil separate from their duty which is to enforce criminal.

As for your situation, if there are kids, aren't they in school?

And there are procedures in most jurisdictions in place to still proceed.  If I remember correctly, it takes longer and it involves posting a notice in the newspaper.  But as Soc, he's always the best person in this area.

Title: RE: O.K., NOW you're getting real argumentative
Post by: maid marion on May 26, 2006, 07:40:22 AM
This is a really long string and I hope I took it all in and recall it all properly as I write this.
Quick background. We had jointustody with placement of our child with him. I had a more stable work history than him so I went back to work after she was born. 1 year into it though, things got real tight finacially. I was working 50-55 hours a week to pay his child support to his 1st ex, paying his attorney fees while he fought with her in court, supporting a household of 4 here at home and supporting his other 3 children when they were here which was quite often. I for a year I asked him to get a part time job to help out but he refused. Needless to say he ended up with placement of our child in the divorce because he was considered the stay home parent not me.
After the divorce I put up with 2 years of him bullying me around and doing whatever he damn well felt like doing. Each time I asked myself....is what he's doing having a negative impact on our child?
A few examples......
He made me provide all transportation to and from visits. Fair? Absolutely not. But It gave me more time with my child,as I knew that I would be gettting her at the right time each visit.(Not sitting around waiting for him to take his sweet time to drop her off) No negative impact.
Enrolled her in preschool against my wishes. I wanted to wait 1 more year so she was a bit older and could tell us if she was being abused or neglected. No negative impact. Education is a good thing.
Refused to let me go to her doctor visits with them. No negative impact. I just called the doctor periodically and got a report.
On and On for 2 years.
Then he started to get out of control.
Attempted to cut into our time together. Negative impact? you betcha! took him to court and won.
Switched her schools because he couldn't get along with the staff. Negative impact? Yup! Took him to court. Judge said put her back where she was.
refused to allow me to be her daycare provider when he wasn't available. Negative impact? Damn right! No need for her to be with sitter and rack up child care expenses when I, her BM am available. Took him to court. Judge said I could be her daycare provider.
On and on he went and on and on I took him to court if I felt that his actions were affecting her negatively.
Eventually he tried to move to another state and the jugde said no. He left anyways and now I have sole custody and he is in prison facing felony child snatching charges.
The point is this.........Don't waste your time and money going to court if what's happening is only impacting you negatively. We all know that lifes not fair so why waste effort time and money trying to make it fair. Eat the principal bullet and go on.
But if what is happening is impacting your child negatively then get up off the couch and find some resourses and try to stop it. Even if you can't your soul will rest easier knowing that you tried to right a wrong.
Keep looking at your child and as long as she/he is smiling back then things are o.k. no matter what in justice has been done.
Good luck to you all,
Maid Marion
Title: Mixed Bag, Please do not respond to this.
Post by: Samson2005 on May 30, 2006, 02:04:22 PM
Mixed Bag, I hope you do not respond to this because you have been diluting this thread with nonsense from the beginning.
_________________________________________________ ________

My order is specific about me making the schedule for the summer. That schedule is to stand as the summer schedule. This has happened before and I have gone to the police with the statute "Unlawful Visitation Interferrence", the Court Order, and emails stating denial of visitation, with no result other than a written report.

This year, I again made the schedule and delivering it on time. I recieved the email of denial from the mother saying that I can not have our child because of other plans.

They have plans for the entire summer and I may see my child it becomes convenient for them.

There is a remedy to this in the criminal statutes.

I have gone the civil route for 10 years while unaware of the criminal remedy. Obviously the civil route has allowed this Interferrence to continue this long.

My order is NOT vague about summers. Civil court has not provided any relief after 10 years of trying. There is a criminal remedy on the books, but it is diluted and ignored.

Can somebody give me advise about how to stop this interferrence? Or, if I can't have my child when I am supposed to, help me understand how to recover damages that have happened.

Title: RE: Mixed Bag, Please do not respond to this.
Post by: maid marion on May 30, 2006, 05:51:14 PM
Don't know if it's a viable route but you could look into sueing in civil court for pain and suffering or maybe breach of contract. Probably a long shot but if you brought all your evidence from the last 10 years it might have some weight.
Good Luck,
Maid Marion
Title: Go ask Socrateaster your question
Post by: MixedBag on May 30, 2006, 06:32:11 PM
and see what he says.

You're looking for the correct legal avenue and he's our resident legal expert.
Title: You have a PM
Post by: MYSONSDAD on May 30, 2006, 08:58:20 PM
I have something very much like what you are dealing with.
Title: RE: O.K., read through that.
Post by: Brent on May 30, 2006, 09:30:00 PM
>Do you think the 2 law firms and the judge all knowingly
>dispensed an unenforcable order?

Sometimes they do, and unfortunately it happens more often than you think.

 
>Are the lawyers and judges dispensing bad orders knowing they
>will see the folk back soon to pay to resolve the issues of
>the deficiant orders?

Believe it or not, some do. Most, however, just aren't very good at drafting parenting plans.




>What would be the motve to dispense unenforcable orders?

Money and future business. That's probably not the case here, but it happens.



>Should I believe my lawyer and judge or the beat cop?

What makes you think you should believe any of them?
Title: RE: Mixed Bag, Please do not respond to this.
Post by: lawless on May 31, 2006, 09:19:32 AM
I agree that this is a civil matter and to be resolved in court.   We all have stories of frustration with our inability to enforce our visitation agreements when the other parent or the children refuse to uphold the agreement.  Adding to that is the fact that these are our children, the most important thing in our lives, and it gets very emotional.  You have received a lot of good advice even though it may not be what you want to hear.  Please remember that those responding are trying to help and we are all just doing the best we can with the information and experience that we all have.

I suggest you get a 2nd opinion - Go Ask Socrateaser - Be sure to follow his posting instructions.

Lawless