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Main Forums => Visitation Issues => Topic started by: bart8797 on May 02, 2008, 10:37:05 AM

Title: Feeling lost
Post by: bart8797 on May 02, 2008, 10:37:05 AM
I have a four year old daughter whom I have visitation with two days during the week and every other weekend, we live in VA and the custodial mother allows my daughter to make the decision wheter or not she wants to come with me on her scheduled days and whther or not she is spending the night on our scheduled weekends what do I do? should I be the parent of this situation and take her with me no matter what?  I will not receive any help from her mother she says she is not going to make her go with me or make her spend the night.  I am really confused, I don't want to drag it into court but I will do what I have to to see my little girl.  Any advice will be appreciated.
Title: Oh boy...m
Post by: Giggles on May 02, 2008, 10:47:01 AM
I can see your future isn't pretty!!

You need to nip that right now!!  Do you have a court order for visitation?  If so, politely tell the BM that you are going to abide by it period and you would appreciate her cooperation.  If she refuses to turn the child over to you, then perhaps you may want to get the authorities involved.  The key to this is a paper trail...document...document...document so if necessary you can prove contempt.

Question:  Does the child cry or carry on when you come to pick her up?  You have to remember the age of child your dealing with and typically, they may have some reaction but QUICKLY get over it.  I used to work in a daycare and many times when the child cries over the parent leaving them there, they stop once the parent is out of sight!!!
Title: Also..............
Post by: Kitty C. on May 02, 2008, 12:29:42 PM
If the BM is refusing to force her to go and won't let you take her for your CO'd parenting time, that's called CONTEMPT.  It is also contempt if the BM is demanding that you bring her home before your scheduled parenting time is up, like not letting her spend the night.  It's very possible your daughter is being PAS'd (Parental Alienation Syndrome).....being coerced by the BM to not want to go with you by telling her crap like 'Daddy's place is icky, you don't like it there, it's not fun there, etc.'  But the amazing thing (at least for younger children) that happens is that once kids get to the other home for a while, they forget all about that stuff and just enjoy themselves.  After PAS had been indoctrinated over a long period of time, it will get harder and harder to overcome that.  It's the same as if someone were to tell you you're stupid...........hear it often enough and people tend to believe it, whether it's true or not.

If you have documented dates of her refusal to allow your daughter to come with you or stay for the full CO'd time, I'd take them to an atty. and see about filing for contempt.  This really sounds like the start of PAS and it will only get worse, MUCH worse, as time goes on.  If you can nip it in the bud now, it won't have such an impact years down the road.  But you MUST assert your rights NOW in order to make that happen.  And keep asserting them....the more you give in, the more the BM will try to take from you.
Title: RE: Feeling lost
Post by: bart8797 on May 02, 2008, 01:08:04 PM
I have read on the parent alienation syndrome and most of the description fits I have printed copies and highlighted areas of concern and gave them to her she denies any of this(one of the symptoms I believe). She is very vindictive and feels as if her way is the right way on everything when my daughter told her she wasn't going to spend the night the last time she was trying to talk her into coming back to her but my daughter didn't, my ex was furious she didn't say a word to me when I took my daughter back at scheduled time, but this was a month ago and when I ask my daughter why she doesn't want to come she tells me she will miss her mom so I am wondering what was said to her after that weekend.   I do have documentation from the first of this year on the days my daughter did and did not come, what was said, what time my ex called me to tell me ect.. The only thing I am afaid of with the authorities is how will it effect my little girl.
Title: RE: Feeling lost
Post by: bart8797 on May 02, 2008, 01:10:42 PM
Sorry I forgot to add that the custody papers state every other weekend with agreed upon days during the week
Title: RE: Feeling lost
Post by: Kitty C. on May 02, 2008, 01:41:15 PM
I'm not sure if that was such a good idea to give her that documentation on PAS.  Whether she denied it or not, she knows you're keeping an eye on her on, so to speak.  I would recommend you keep your cards close to your chest from here on out.  Things like this have a tendency to turn around a bite you on the backside and it's people like her that take issues like this and twist them around in such a way as to make it look like YOU are the guilty one.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'The only thing I am afaid of with the authorities is how will it effect my little girl'.  Why would the authorities be involved?  What I was talking about is accumulating documentation on all the times she's denied you parenting time in any possible way and filing contempt on all of them at once in COURT.  One thing about contempt:  Filing on one occurance will leave you holding the bag and cost you a bundle.  You must have numerous incidences to show a pattern of denial or the court won't even consider it.  But don't count on the court doing a whole lot, other than slapping her hands and telling her not to do it again.  If you do end up in court on contempt charges, do everything possible to get something added to your agreement that there WILL be severe repercussions, not limited to loss of parenting time on her part, if there are any future contempts filed.

That's one thing I would strongly recommend to any parent going into a custody battle from the get-go.  Make sure there are provisions in the order for consequences if either parent deliberately goes against the order.  Make it known immediately that the court has the final word, NOT the custodial parent.
Title: RE: Feeling lost
Post by: wysiwyg on May 06, 2008, 10:01:08 AM
Many orders, or state guidelines refer to something of the effect that it is not proper to place th echild in the middle of a situation nor is it acceptable to allow the child to make decisions on when to see each parent, on the same token, one could approach that to say (not that I am promiting this in your case) that you could tell the BM that by her terms then the child can make the decision as to when she needs to go home to see mom.  

BUt seriously, I would stick to the order and stick to the moral issue that it is not proper to place such a large burdensome decision on the child as this only serves to severe the promotion of a healthy relationship with each parent.
Title: RE: Feeling lost
Post by: gemini3 on May 21, 2008, 11:11:41 AM
You follow the court order.  If you're ex refuses to do the same, you take her to court for contempt.  It's black and white.  What your ex is doing will only get worse as time goes by.  If she is alienating your child it could have severe consequences on your daughter as she grows up.  As her father, you need to do what you can to protect her from this.

Sometimes ex's will do these things because they think they can get away with it.  She may stop if you put your foot down - but she's got no reason to stop as it stands.

So, here's what you do.  You copy the "Letter of Intent to Exercise Visitation" that you can find on this website.  You fill it out and send it to her certified mail, keeping a copy of the letter and the certification number.  Let her know that you will be exercising your visitation with your daughter as ordered by the court.  

She may do nothing, or she may spaz out and try to keep you from getting your daughter.  This is where you document, document, document.  If she calls you, record it.  If she won't let you pick up your daughter for the scheduled visitation, document that with a 3rd party witness.

VA, by the way, is a one party state.  That means that you can legally record your conversations with your ex and use them in court.

Bottom line - you have to put your foot down with her or she'll alienate your daughter from you.  Don't let that happen.  She will 'make' your daughter go with you because that is her court ordered duty as the custodial parent.
Title: RE: Feeling lost
Post by: laughterlove on Sep 28, 2008, 06:25:20 PM
Hi there,

I'm here to offer the other side. No one responding knows your particular situation but I've noticed the responses are pretty one sided. I too have a four year old daughter. She has an extremely close relationship with both her father and me. She adores him. However, I will not force her to go to her fathers when she truly does not want to. He has accused me of coaching her, but this is not the case. I ALWAYS make sure she TRULY does not want to go. I encourage her to go. But she knows her needs better than I do. It's not often that she won't go but when she doesn't want to, there is always something more to it. It could just be something as simple as feeling like we have not had enough time together and she misses me. She's only 4. Her emotional security is the most important thing to me. If she is not ready for regular overnights then she is not ready. This is a BIG deal to young children.

So, if you have a strong relationship with your child, and SHE is saying she doesn't want to stay over or come, please do not immediately jump to PAS. She may just be expressing her needs and it's our job as parents to respect our childs needs.

Title: I'm just curious...
Post by: Erika on Sep 29, 2008, 01:59:47 PM
Do you let your daughter decide for all things that affect her, besides going with her father.

An example would be when she is ready for school. Would you force her to go to school if she says she is not wanting to go because she would miss you.

Would you make her go to the doctor if she is sick, even if she cries and does not want to go.

I am trying to point out that she will not be traumatized because her mommy and daddy make decisions for her. Four is much too young for letting her make adult decisions.

Sorry, but I agree with her father on this.

How would you feel if she went with dad and did not want to come home to you because she misses her dad and wants more time. Would you be agreeable and let her stay, lets say for a week if that is what she wanted.

Because that is what you let her do with dad, so in relaity you would have to let her stay due to her emotional well being. Put the shoe on the other foot.
Title: RE: Feeling lost
Post by: gemini3 on Sep 29, 2008, 08:07:45 PM
You said:  "So, if you have a strong relationship with your child, and SHE is saying she doesn't want to stay over or come, please do not immediately jump to PAS. She may just be expressing her needs and it's our job as parents to respect our childs needs."

One of a child's strongest needs at that age is to bond with and align herself with the person who is responsible for her existance - no matter how messed up that individual and their actions or desires may be.  That means that if your daughter in any way interprets her spending time with her father as something you don't like or would hurt you - she will resist it, regardless of how much she may want to.  

At her age, she is unable to put into words what her feelings mean.  If she observes that you are anxious (or, say how much you will miss her, for example) when it's time for her to spend time with her Dad, she will feel anxious too - and describe her feelings the way you describe your own.  In her mind, you and she are not seperate people yet.  No four year old can articulate feeling that "we haven't spent enough time together".  Maybe this are your own feelings that you're projecting onto your daughter.

Your job as a parent is to make sure that your children grow up happy, well adjusted people who are able to take care of themselves and their own offspring - not cater to their emotional whims.  There are lots of things kids don't want to do that are important and best for them - eating their veggies, going to bed on time, going to school, going to the doctor, wearing a jacket when it's cold out... the list is endless.

You mention that you always make sure she really doesn't want to go - this type of interrogation is most certainly coaching.  I agree with your ex.  If your ex was on this board I would encourage him to use the courts to protect his right to parent his child.  Hopefully you won't give him any more reason to.
Title: Skeptical,,,caution
Post by: Davy on Sep 29, 2008, 11:58:58 PM

Please be cautious in your responses.   This thread began in May approx. 5 mos ago.  She is not posting for advice but to inform the  original poster and all the other excellent responsers of "the other side" because "responses are pretty one sided".

In other words, the court, the child's father, and the rest of society is
wrong because she is the mother and everybody is not only to accept but also to promote her self serving manipulations.

This poster may be looking for sympathy or prepare for auguments to counter the oppressive controlling SOB father (in her mind or words) or his attorney for an upcoming court hearing.

I'm surprised laughterlove didn't sign on as ROFLMAO.

Just please be cautious.  laughterlove has nothing to offer anybody except hurt and pain to her daughter and she won't stop on her own.  

Title: She's 4. If she feels the need for her emotional well-being to
Post by: tigger on Sep 30, 2008, 06:44:21 AM
cross the interstate, are you going to respect her needs and let her?
Title: May?
Post by: Erika on Sep 30, 2008, 10:07:59 AM
I believe the posted began membership in May. This thread started this week.

Am I reading it wrong?

And who cares if she is a mother or father. If it is so one sided, how is it that I am a CP mom and I still take the dad's side?
Title: RE: May?
Post by: Davy on Sep 30, 2008, 10:59:49 AM
Bart started the thread on Fri May-02-08 11:37 AM

Uhm.... I was a CP dad because I took the child's side but no one ever designated me as the best parent.

I certainly hope you are not implying that I may be anti-female ... anti socialist feminest ..absolutely big time.

Do you have a problem ?  

Did anyone ever designate you as the best parent ?  

The intent and purpose of my post is relevant. Yours is NOT  !!!
Title: RE: May?
Post by: gemini3 on Sep 30, 2008, 01:31:44 PM
I think Erika was talking about the most recent post - not when the thread was started.  I read her post as being directed at the laughterlove, not you.  I read it as her saying that the posters aren't "one-sided" (as laughterlove claims), because she is a woman and a CP, and yet she is siding with the father and not laughterlove.

I didn't see anything implying you're anti-female, and I thought her post was relevant to the subject, and I think she was correct in telling laughterlove that she shouldn't be interfering in her child's visitation with her father.

I don't see what you're attacking her for.
Title: Thank you..and what you said is exactly what I meant...
Post by: Erika on Sep 30, 2008, 01:54:49 PM
I cannot reply to Davy, it was too full of anger and animosity.
Title: RE: May?
Post by: Davy on Oct 01, 2008, 12:01:52 PM
Gemini3 ... Erika clearly was responding to my post and to "the thread".  I had graciously answered her question about when the "thread" started.  I didn't expect it to become a big deal except that, in essence, is why I posted in the first place.... please read Sparc homepage... and you can easily determine the reason I thought a caution was appropriate (in addition to another experience when people died).  

And Gemini3 did somebody appoint you Erika's guardian ?  Why are you espousing these wild eyed accusations that I'm attacking Erika ?  I don't know her or anything about her.  

Of course I did ask, in a subtle way, if there was any evaluation of parenting capabilities or if the government simply labeled her "CP" because she is a female.  She brought it up I did'nt !!!  Of course nobody wants to answer that question and it is at the heart of all these problems for children....for example laughterlove.  

Title: RE: May?
Post by: gemini3 on Oct 01, 2008, 12:33:39 PM
Davy, I didn't read Erika's post the way you did.  I was offering a different perspective on her post and think I did it in a very respectful way.  You said "Do you have a problem?", which sounds extremely confrontational to me.

I agree that caution is appropriate, but this board would not exist if posters and members were unable to share advice and ideas for fear that the "opposing party" might read it.  It's a public forum.  I don't think that anyone said anything that would tip off laughterlove, or give her an unfair advantage in court.  

I personally think that it's our responsibility to try and educate people who are actively alienating their children from the other parent.

I'm not sure what you find so offensive in her post or my response.  I also don't think it's right to assume that just because someone is a woman and a CP they aren't actually a suitable parent and just got the favor of the court, or that they're anti-father.

For me, the goal is fair and equal parenting for BOTH PARENTS.  It's in everyone's benefit if both men and women, both CP's and NCP's, are moving toward that goal.  Let's fight the problem and not each other.
Title: I can not not reply to Davy ...
Post by: Davy on Oct 01, 2008, 12:56:41 PM
>I cannot reply to Davy, it was too full of anger and animosity<

No your entire statement is meaningless and false but should be translated :

" my entire life our government has repeatly told me my chit doesn't stink and I am not accountable for anything I say or do... I'm not going to start now"

Apparently you don't know the first thing about anger.  I think it is all hilarious.... but then I pause and consider how damaging it is to all the children and realize it is not hilarious at all.

You are probably a good person but it would be better if you stopped internalizing everything and gain an understanding that it is not about you personally so you could communicate effectively.

Do you think the government labeled you "CP' simply because you were the mother or was there a parenting evaluation ??

Just so you know my children always referred to me as "Dad" ... oh wait a minute oldest son called me "dickhead" when the government called his mother "CP'.... but basically my children chuckled at the labels because they knew the children ... all children know or eventually will know the difference.

Please respond.  Thanks !!    
Title: RE: May?
Post by: Davy on Oct 01, 2008, 01:27:07 PM
Gemini3....thanks... I agree ..  no strongly agree with practically every word (or principle).  Thanks !

More later !

damn you're hot ... if you are not married I think I love you (unless Kitty gets jealous)  
Title: No jealousy here............
Post by: Kitty C. on Oct 01, 2008, 02:32:04 PM
......I'm permanently taken!  :-)
Title: Re: Feeling lost
Post by: Nytridr on Nov 02, 2008, 12:54:34 PM
You know I came across this site looking for advise and seeing if anyone else may be in the same situation I am in or close, and this is the first post I looked at after posting my own, I seen a couple good answers, even if they are 1 sided and then I seen flames.

this situation very closely resembles my situtation and after the first few post all I see is flames. 

From someone that has gone through this for 14 years so far, let me just say this.  My 14 yr old resents alot of things that happened in the past, when it comes to this.  I wish I could go back and change things, and even she looks back and wish's I would of enforced taking her all weekend on the weekends I was suppose to have her.  So even though some may think it is protecting their children.  It is still better for your child to know the other parent unless there is something go on that may be harmful for the child.

Looking back I wish I could change things and do things way differnt when it comes to my daughter.  So just think of it this way.  Are things happening for your security or for your childs security.  Children need both parents not just one.  A "step parent" is ok but children need to know the other parent and be able to bond with them. 

I still do not know what I am going to do in my situation but I am going to keep looking, and hopfully I can change things around.
Title: Re: Feeling lost
Post by: BecauseIJustDid on Nov 20, 2008, 12:11:47 AM
Follow the CO. I think you need to take her to court and have them enforce the CO as well. I have noticed that we too are looking at the beginning stages of PAS too. 2 yr. old SS already comes over telling me my food is poo poo and ew. He's not a daycare kid and his in-house sibling is ten. This only happened after BM was told I make all the food in the home and that he's allowed to help me in the kitchen. Good luck!