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Main Forums => Second Families => Topic started by: babyfat on Nov 10, 2007, 06:06:23 AM

Title: At my witts end
Post by: babyfat on Nov 10, 2007, 06:06:23 AM
I have 4 kids by my first husband he died 4 years ago, we were still married and fairly happy. After 2 years my kids brought home thier friends father for me, he had custody of his daughter. Yeah sounds funny but the kids set us up. His daughter had been to my house several times, mine to his, we met and the kids pressured us to go out so after some hesitation I gave in. We dated and both him and his daughter moved in with us. I actually like his daughter she behaived well with me and enjoyed doing things like helping me cook (stiring things etc) that my kids just got board with doing. She had previous behavior problems but for the most part she was doing well in therapy and doing well in my home. Mom had every weekend with the child and wens. as well. The main problem was mom.

Mom after they moved in started pulling some nasty things. She would pull up in front of my house and yell at my boyfriend, curse in front of the kids, and one time had her boyfriend get out of the car to have a fist fight with my boyfriend in front of the kids. Then she started with filing stuff in family court to get custody back and she kept losing so she got cps involved by saying her child was being sexually abused by mine. First time it didn't fly, second time they wanted to open a case, third time I hired a lawyer and cps sent the kid to mom's with out giving dad any visits at all. My daughter went through all sorts of nonsense with therapist and evaluations etc and everything was coming back she had not been sexually abused nor was she abusing anybody else but I kept her in therapy to deal with things. I went to therapy myself. In the mean time his daughter was cut off from dad and her behavior went back to what it was she was out of control.

Now fast foward almost 2 years. Cps is still insisting my daughter did something to this other child but there is no real proof and we think if something happened it was probably some stupid kiddie thing if that. Dad now has theraputic visits with his daughter with a therapist and the kid is saying it was nothing. This kid is completely out of control in school and at home even the social worker now recoginizes this and ordered mom some parenting in home services. Last time we all met (thursday) we were informed this child is now pulling out clumps of her hair, is abusive towards her mother, is violent towards other kids, scratches herself and picks the scabs, picks her nose so it bleeds, is KILLING small animals, calls home from school to come home with various excuses, faking illnesses and the list goes on. This was told by moms lawyer with mom conferming it as he spoke. The mom was trying to blaim all this on dad but the social worker knew it wasn't him he only has 1 hour a week with the child in therapy. Now it appears that cps is recoginizing that mom can't handle this child and wants an eval on both homes to decide which is the better place for this child. They also want a medical eval on this child for psyc meds and a psychological eval. on the child.

Now maybe I am being selfish but in this time I also have a now 10 month old son, and with her being so violent and killing small animals etc I don't want the child here. I mean I know the child did well here and it is probably the better of the two homes but I now have 5 kids to consider. We won't even focus on the hell the ex put us through all this time but this kid is a danger to mine period why would they even think I'd have her back? My boyfriend is in a catch 22 situation because he feels the same way I do. He wants his visits and his time with his daughter but he fixed this situation once things were going good, when the child was doing well mom wanted her back and pulled every nasty in the book to get her, distroyed her and now wants to give her back. It took a lot of effort to get this child to where she was and he is burnt out and can't do it again. He loves his child but he loves the other kids too and does not want to endanger them to fix her. I know I can't do it. I can't go through the last 2 years again I'm burnt out on it. And how the hell does cps think having a child like this around my 5 kids is in thier best interest? It may be in his daughters best interest but my five come on? Are they nuts.

Would you take this kid back, would you even consider it? Thinking of all we have been through and this post only just scratches the surfice. What can we do to help this child with out endangering the others? That is the big question. I mean the parenting for the mom should help and the therapy and evals and maybe meds might help as well but we have a feeling that mom can't handle this child and no parenting class in the world will make her do anything if she doesn't see she did anything wrong. (she had she doen't pay any attention to the kids hence the behavior. It is a case of I don't want the child but I don't want you to have her either and I certianly don't want you to move on and be happy when I'm not) I could just scream like the post title I'm at my witts end and I just don't know how to proceed to help this kid.
Title: RE: At my witts end
Post by: lucky on Nov 10, 2007, 10:33:30 AM
Tell CPS NO!!!!  CPS doesn't care about your other 5 kids - they only care (right now) about the one they have in their system.

True story:  A 13 yo child hurt her 1/2 sister who was ~10 years younger than her.  It happened during the night.  The dad and stepmom wanted to put locks on the doors to prevent anything else from occurring and were told that they would have charges pressed against them by CPS is they locked the 13 yo in, but they could CERTAINLY put locks on the other kids' doors to keep the 13 yo OUT of those rooms.

In essence they were told that they couldn't lock the 13 yo in, but they could lock the other kids in.

Stupid, huh?  CPS won't care about the other kids till they get the problem child back in your home.  Then when the problem child hurts one or more of the other 5 kids, CPS will open a case AGAINST you for neglect.  Neglect? you say.  Yep, you neglected your other 5 kids by not protecting them from the problem child - [em]even though CPS decided the problem child should live there.[/em]  I'm 99% guaranteeing it.  

Don't let her come back without massive help.  My advice is to tell them you'll take her back into your home ONLY AFTER she's been in a residential treatment program for several months - one that has regular family therapy sessions- preferably weekly at minimum (so it would need to be fairly close to your home if possible) with YOUR FAMILY, NOT BM.  The goal of this program would be to get the child stabilized and to prepare her and your dh and yourself & kids for her to come back to live with you NOT to repair BM's relationship - that can be done during out-patient after she's stabilized.  Also make sure that CPS sets up visitation guidelines based on the program's THERAPIST'S recommendations instead of thinking it'll be good for BM to spend unsupervised time with the child.  The therapist will also make recommendations for you guys, but you aren't the ones that are creating problems.

I've raised two girls that had incredible emotional and behavioral issues - CPS, probation office and social services WERE NOT our friends, no matter what they pretended.  I've got my 14 yo boy now that is going thru much of that also and HAS been in residential treatment - twice.  He spent the last year in a day treatment program and is now in a transitional program with outpatient therapy and will go back to his regular high school next fall - 4 years after being kicked out of the regular school.  I know of what I speak.

It's a hard road and should you decide to try my advice be VERY, VERY sure that IF CPS agrees and it happens, you are prepared for it all.  The problems could "come back" - they did in our case.  You need to be sure you are willing to deal with that and live like that.  Do a LOT of soul searching and don't let CPS strong-arm you into anything.

I often wonder what our 14 yo would be like had he not spent 6 years growing up in a home with the two older girls.....  Would things have been "normal" for him and he wouldn't have gotten in trouble at age 10?  Would we have been able to focus on him and address his issues to resolve them when they were minor and before they got out of control?  I don't know, but the idea that it might have been simply breaks my heart.


Lead your life so you wouldn't be ashamed to sell the family parrot to the town gossip.
- Will Rogers[em]
Title: RE: At my witts end
Post by: babyfat on Nov 10, 2007, 02:07:18 PM
The other 4 of mine are in thier system because the mom made a report 4 times that my daughter was molesting her's to get the kid back we were charged (not criminally) with abuse/neglect for not stoping it. Even though in reality what ever happened only happened once according to the daughter because mom reported it more frequently it happened more frequently and was listed in the petition 3 times as on going sexual abuse. No therapist says it was. So now because of this child (well actually her mother) I'm a abusive and neglectful parent because I failed to supervise what wasn't going on. Truthfully I could have beat the case but I didn't want to go through a long mud slinging trial and that is what it would have been. Had we won cps would have given us no help and the judge would have ordered the child back to dad and we'd be worse off. At least this way mom has to have parenting help. CPS was never intrested in my kids at all except to make my oldest out to be some sort of sicko and granted she has some issues but she isn't violent and out of control, just a little, and I do mean a little argumentitive and doesn't like being told what to do. The other children of mine although listed in the petition (baby was not born yet he isn't in it) were not of consern they were never ordered to go to therapy or anything.

I've already brought up the idea of residentail treatment for the child but my boyfriend thinks her main problem is just bad parenting, without any limits set she doesn't know right from wrong. yes I think that is a big issue but something else is going on their too. We have been told by the ex's family that the ex's boyfriend is beating her and the kids see this but cps said they would look into it and then said it wasn't going on. maybe it just wasn't going on while they were there. The ex, her boyfriend, the daughter, and the daughter from the mom's first mariage all go to family therapy. (by the way the other daughter is just as bad)

We were also ordered to go to family therapy me, my boyfriend, and just my 1 daughter not the other kids. We are suppose to be covering "dicipline stratigies" because I'm supposedly smacking my kids across the face, although that was never part of the petition and anyone who has spent any time with me knows I don't do that and basically busts out laughing when they hear it cause it is soooo off the wall. I one time said to the woman what do I only smack them when nobody is looking, in private, on Fridays so there is no mark when they go back to school on Monday? so basically we go to family therapy once a week and talk about the case. The family therapist questioned my daughter in his office then brought us in and said "I really like your form of dicipline, you make them write an essay on what they did wrong and then discuss the essay" Yep that is what I do. And the younger two just have to sit through the explaintion part of it when they do something wrong. So we never talk about dicipline at all since the first visit.

As it stands right now my boyfriend actually refused unsupervised visits with his daughter. He requested cps have them supervised so in addition to the therapy with his daughter once a week he should soon be starting a 2 hour visit with her and somebody to supervise. He at this point is afraid that if he is alone with her another allegation will be made up by the ex. CPS will admit the mom needs some "help" but they will not admit the mom makes up things and the kid repeats them. Then thier case would fall appart, however I think they know this is the case. They just won't formally fess up. The doctor that will do the psych/med eval is the same one that did it on my daughter. He has an excellent rep and when he is told these things (especally the killing animals part) I do not doubt he will want some residential treatment. This child is also only 8 years old. We have 10 more years of dealing with this. I'm not even sure with residential treatment I would risk taking the child back. I don't want my kids to have to live like prisioners in thier own home and I wouldn't feel safe (when this child was 5 she tried to stab her mother with a stake knife but like I said the behavior was soo much improved when she came here I was not afraid then but she is back to stuff like that) You know if I had no children I would have no problem taking her back because I know she just needs limits, structure, and attention but with 5 others I just don't think I can give them what they need if I'm trying to give her what she needs. The ideal situation to me would be if mom go it together and took care of the kid like she should and nocked off her nonsence behavior but if she hasn't grown up by now (she is about to turn 40)  it just isn't going to happen.
Title: RE: At my witts end
Post by: dipper on Nov 10, 2007, 07:08:42 PM
I really would refuse to allow the child in the home - I would fight for a residential home.  You cannot help her.  She needs professionals.  Bad parenting is not causing her to kill animals and pull her own hair out.  now, perhaps severe abuse may have led to this.....but, there is no way she should be in a home with other children - especially younger ones.

My cousin and his wife abused 5 children.  Finally cps took them away - I made a complaint against them five years before they ever took the children away.  Two of the children - who were like 7 and 5 when taken....are in residential care for extreme anger issues.  Other family members had taken them in but couldnt handle it....

Title: RE: At my witts end
Post by: babyfat on Nov 11, 2007, 06:11:12 AM
>I really would refuse to allow the child in the home - I
>would fight for a residential home.  You cannot help her.  She
>needs professionals.  Bad parenting is not causing her to kill
>animals and pull her own hair out.  now, perhaps severe abuse
>may have led to this.....but, there is no way she should be in
>a home with other children - especially younger ones.

I agree with you but in your opinion could being treated with "trauma" therapy for sexual abuse that doesn't seem to have happened could have led to this. Mind you the other child the supposed "abuser" is doing fine no major problems and teacher reports she isn't close to being the toughest kid to handle in her class. She has none of the problems present in the other child. Also nobody in the family (my boyfriends side) reports seeing any abuse (physical at least) done to this child before the split and she had some but not all of these problems to a lesser extent before my boyfriend got help for her and worked with her to fix it before. Since she went with her mother the problems have come back 10x's worse. I don't think the mother is physically abusing the child but emotional abuse seems to be there and she sees physical abuse with her mom's boyfriend beating her mother. Do you think these things could have lead to this issue?? Why I'm asking this is because without identifing the problem we just can't fix it or get her the best help possible. CPS isn't going to help us identfy the problem and they don't let my boyfriend have contact with his childs therapist so the therapist is only getting what mom tells him which isn't necessarily the truth or is the truth with her twist making it untrue. CPS seems to just think all this is due to anxiety problems but I'm treated for anxiety and take and Rx and those aren't things I'd do nor anybody else I know an anxiety disorder.
Title: RE: At my witts end
Post by: MixedBag on Nov 12, 2007, 05:22:19 AM
I would trust lucky's advice whole heartedly....

I've known her now for (geez) over 10 years...
Title: I second that as well
Post by: dsm on Nov 12, 2007, 06:17:43 AM
Lucky's family and her situation is about as complex as you can get out here.  She knows the cps system, how to get through it.  

Show her post to your bf.  Understandably, he is worried about another false accusation from BM.  The residential treatment program would help to be a buffer IMHO.  The focus needs to be on the child and transition back with your family - BM is a side issue.

Good luck and keep us updated.


dsm - 37; DH - 40; SD - 18; LO - 11; BB - 4
It's time for me to do for me and mine.  The others can worry about themselves for awhile.
Title: RE: At my witts end
Post by: lucky on Nov 12, 2007, 06:22:50 PM
It HAS been that long, hasn't it?

Title: RE: I second that as well
Post by: babyfat on Nov 13, 2007, 04:20:02 AM
>Show her post to your bf.  Understandably, he is worried about
>another false accusation from BM.  The residential treatment
>program would help to be a buffer IMHO.  The focus needs to be
>on the child and transition back with your family - BM is a
>side issue.
I showed the thread to bf last night along with several mental health pages with referances to his daughters current behavior. We talked for a long time. We decided on a game plan. What we are going to do if first wait for the psychological to come back on his daughter, but we understand a psychological is only as good as the info given to the evaluator so much will be left out about any current abuses the child is expsoed to. For example, killing animals is usually a trait often see by children who witness abuses like DV, or children who are beaten or sexually abused. Since they are trying to pin sexual abuse on my daughter cps could say it is a direct result of my daughter doing something to her, however she did not have these behaviors while she was with us and the "abuse" was going on she has it now a year and a half later so explain that. Anyway the behaviors fit the DSM IV critera for "Conduct disorder" so we are guessing the psych eval will say that or something close to it like ODD maybe because she is only 8 and conduct disorder is usually diagnosed in teens. She also may have other disorders that are stress baised. Knowing the Dr doing the eval medically I suspect he will try to avoid meds and go with behavior therapy (he doesn't like prescribing meds for kids usually wants therapy first) he may very well suggest residental treatment to acomplish this and seriously she needs residental treatment not meds. Meds only releave symptoms they don't fix anything only removal from her current situation can do that. My bf seems to like the idea of resedental treatment he even chimed in with out me saying it that they should observe how she acts with just mom and just dad to identify the problem which I'm sure they will do.
See this child origionally went to the therapist for behavioral disorder and was doing well but when she went to mom's it graduated to ODD even though she was still in therapy, and now it very well have gone beyond that. There was nothing we could do to stop it.
I also pointed out specifically the part in the post where lucky stated about her son and how different he could have been if not around the 2 other girls. That part really hit home because we are helping my daughter now and the main concentraition is on her and she is doing better, well actually pretty good. If we bring this child back our efforts will be directed towards the bigger issue his daughter, and she may make a back slide and we don't want that to happen.
so what were doing is 1) wait for the psych eval 2) wait for the med check 3) see if they recommend residentail treatement if not we will 4) if residentail treatment is not part of the plan we absolutely will not take the child back period. We will only have my bf spend as much supervised time with the child he can. That is really all we can do. We have a feeling that if this goes untreated as it has been he will have to visit his child in a juvie facility for youthfull offenders anyway. She already has no fear of what her actions might lead to and has been in several assults at school leaving children scratched and bruised and she has no remorse for her actions so she is well on the way to kiddie jail. I feel so bad for my bf because he feels hopeless and helpless but he really put up a good fight and loves his daughter and he will still fight for her to get the right treatment but his hands are tied he can only do so much to save her. I on the other hand have 5 kids I have to protect and the good of the one is not the good of the many.