SPARC Forums

This post originally appeared on the "Mothers Without Custody" message board. - SPARC Admin

I have seen the posts on the other boards that this board had been created, and while it irked me, I couldn't quite place my finger on WHY.  It JUST, and I mean JUST, occurred to me WHY I have a problem with this board.

This board, in my opinion, adds to the entire problem with the family court, custody and EVERYTHING that is wrong with family law today.  It goes to the heart of what we, as father's, are trying to fight everyday.  The societal view of each gender, and their role in raising the child/children of a marriage or relationship.

Think back to the way one reacts to different custody situations.  When you meet a custodial woman, we think nothing of it.  We might, if the conversation turns that way, and the custodial Mom is acting inappropriately, let our feelings be known, but it does not change the view of the person.  The same when we meet a noncustodial Dad.  We might give him advice, comisurate on the family court system, etc, but we think nothing of it.

BUT, when we meet a CUSTODIAL Dad, our first thought, even by those of us that KNOW that Dads are just as good as Moms at raising the children, is "Wow, what did she do wrong?".

Now, how does this board help empower that image?  Well, it acts like there are special problems associated with being a noncustodial Mom.  Problems that need to be addressed separately.  When this is simply NOT the case.  

I feel that there should be a board for mothers, or women, just as there is a board for fathers, but to place noncustodial Moms in a special category once again emphasizes the nonexistance difference between men and women as parents, and martyrs those women that do not get custody of the children.

That is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Appreciate your opinion...but if you disagree with SPARC having this kind of outlet for Mom's who don't have custody maybe you should just not read the posts on this board. Same principle as not liking certain type TV shows. If you don't like that kind of show then don't turn the TV to that channel.
And no...I'm not a non-custodial Mom.  I am happily married to the father of my daughter and am a step-mom to his 6 year old daughter. I have to watch/support my DH deal with a PBFH who does everything she can to frustrate DH so he will just go away and she and her hubby play house. Of course her attempts to keep DH from having a relationship with his daughter don't work so she's not going to win that game.

I agree that maybe it should have been called "Mothers' Issues" to be fair. We don't have a "Dads without Custody" board, do we?

There isn't a server in the world that would hold that many names.

this site has represented father's for a very long time. So they branched out to include all of us Mom's that have stepped into your world...

And I take it you don't like it...

oh well, you don't have to come here.

SPARC 'branched out a few years ago, when it changed it's name from FRTC (Father Rights To Custody) to SPARC (Separated Parents Access and Resource Center), thereby erasing the differentiation between genders.  They did this with the knowledge that there are BOTH NCP dads AND moms.  

In many ways, I agree with gr8dad, as this board seems somewhat redundant.  The WHOLE site caters to NCP's, regardless of gender.  Now, since there is a "Father's Board', maybe this one should be called 'Mother's Board'............that makes more sense.  

It is my understanding that this guy had a real battle with his ex over the custody of his kids. He won custody and probably should have it, but he is judging every non-custodial mother by his experience with his ex, (as guess who is now a non-custodial parent in his world).

After being enlightened by many regulars on this board, I am going to consider the source and ignore his attacks.

I need this place to come for support and I have nothing to do with anything or any experience this guy has had. I won't be held accountable and explain things to someone that cannot and will not see past their own troubles.

But I expect no less from certain people.  I simply posted a disagreement.  No insults, simply a different opinion.  I also never asked you to explain your situation, so I will not be accused of holding you accountable, since we have never spoken, debated, nor even DISCUSSED your situation.

But, when you put such a board up, you attract people who are simply out to fight.  Unable to hold a discussion.  If you disagree with them, you are "attacking".  Just wait until the insults and cussing starts.  It will be the most satisfying "I told you so" that I will ever give out.

Gleaning pleasure out of seeing others attempt to condemn her says more about you, than it does about her.  Certainly, anonymous posters who we don't know diddly about are not going to give your "I told you so" more credibility.  

If you want to discuss shared parenting or father's rights...you might want to try a more effective approach than taking your misplaced aggression out on those that are not the cause of your intelligent, thinly veiled venom.  Nor are you indicating that you are a credible advocate for NCPs with these types of posts that nit pick her to death, as of late.

I have yet to see you offer up any type of positive support and/or counsel in this new forum for the counterpart NCP.  Just a litany of complaints in this forum.  

So, let me make sure I understand from what direction you come from so that I might take anything you say either with a grain of salt or instead choose to ignore and scroll...

You only advocate for fathers' and stepparents' rights...loving mothers, of any custody category, do not deserve the time of day from you except when the opportunity to point an indignant finger is available.

Obviously, you do not agree that NCBMs should have a forum at SPARC dedicated to addressing another faction of the NCP category, the non-custodial mother.  You've made your position on that subject clear in a thread you started saying so much.  We don't agree with you, it would serve most of us well if you'd accept the fact that not everyone is going to agree with you.

Olanna...I highly suggest that you utilize anything gr8Dad has to say that is useful to you and let the remaining tone of negativity and unnecessary criticism roll right off your back.  I'm safely assuming you get enough of that in your life without his help.  

I didn't SAY that I only supported fathers and step parents.  And as a matter of fact, I WHOLE support anyone that loves their children.  I was simply pointing out that I did not attack her, nor did I insult her, yet I was accused of such.

But, of course, we get the, "You don't agree with us on EVERY issue?  Well, you MUST be against us...".  I never said, indicated, hinted at, or implied ANYTHING of that nature.  Please do not put words in my mouth.

custody scenario.  Not all moms without custody are whores, drug users, unemployed, etc........

and if that isn't attacking and insulting...I don't know what you would call it.

LOL...

> but he is judging every non-custodial
>mother by his experience with his ex, (as guess who is now a
>non-custodial parent in his world).

I never got that he was judging ANYONE.  But I what I did see was that you disagreed with him ..then attacked HIM!.  I understand his opinion, as I understand yours.  I think the difficulty with it for him (and me), is that father's have been the second class citizens in court, in custody, as parents.  That is oppression.  We are in the minority and fighting an uphill battle.  Then consider that most(not all) of the mothers that do lose custody do have something wrong with them (as people or as parents).  So, the number of mothers without custody is a very small portion of society.  
Like I said, There is some difficulty with that for me, but I'm not totally against it.  I know what it felt like before I got custody, so I can empathize with the feelings.
>
>After being enlightened by many regulars on this board, I am
>going to consider the source and ignore his attacks.

I still see it as you attacking him.  Just because you don't like his opinion is no reason to go after him.  
>
>I need this place to come for support and I have nothing to do
>with anything or any experience this guy has had. I won't be
>held accountable and explain things to someone that cannot and
>will not see past their own troubles.

I never saw him ask for any accountability on your part.  I saw him disagree with the separate board.  As for someone with their own troubles......I see them from you...not him.

>After being enlightened by many regulars on this board, I am
>going to consider the source and ignore his attacks.

I have to agree with Gr8dad- I didn't see him "attacking" anyone. He disagreed with the need/reason for this board, but he did so in a calm, rational manner. I don't see anything he's done here as attacking, insulting, or causing trouble. He raised a point and I understand what he's saying, although I may not agree with it. I've seen Gr8Dads posts elewhere and he strikes me as a reasonable, balanced person overall. I don't know his story at all so I can't comment on that, but there's room enough for all of us here I think.

I have to disagree with one remark, Gr8dad- I don't see this board as the beginning of the "feminization" of SPARC. This place is for all NCPs. I do believe that NCP moms and dads have somewhat different issues as NCPs. Some are the same, but some are different. I really don't see the harm in having a board for moms without custody, and again, I don't see this asa "feminizing" SPARC. Half of all our visitors are women anyway, to ignore them seems to be unfair and part of the whole "mindset" we're fighting against- that one parent is worth "less" than the other.

Just my thoughts on this.......

I wasn't talking this board being the beginning of the feminization, I was referring to that kind of posting.  Disagree on ONE issue, and you are out to get them, and "attacking" them.  I have seen it happen a lot.

>I wasn't talking this board being the beginning of the
>feminization, I was referring to that kind of posting.

Ah, okay, my mistake.


>Disagree on ONE issue, and you are out to get them, and
>"attacking" them.  I have seen it happen a lot.

Hmmm, I don't see it happen very much here, although I'm sure it ocurrs from time to time. SPARC is in general alot less combative than other sites, but people get tend to get defensive here just like anywhere else. In any case, the "for us or against us" mindset usually doesn't get very far here. The hardcore, anti-father feminazi types don't last long on these boards.

First JanM said:
**I agree that maybe it should have been called "Mothers' Issues" to be fair. **

Then Gr8dad said:
**There isn't a server in the world that would hold that many names.**

If that is not a personal attack against ALL mother's what do you call it?
Sorry, I found it very offensive and felt it directed at mothers in general and especially Non Custodial Mother's.

TM

>If that is not a personal attack against ALL mother's what do
>you call it?
>Sorry, I found it very offensive and felt it directed at
>mothers in general and especially Non Custodial Mother's.

Hmmmm, that's not at all how I took this comment. It didn't seem insulting to me. I think he meant that the number of NCP fathers is a huge number, and certainly larger than that of NCP moms. I have to agree.

It was insulting to me, too. And I really wish gr8 would find another sandbox to play in on this forum. He has done nothing toward contributing one drop of information, but stirred up a lot of bad feelings.

BTW, there were enough NCP Mom's to start this board and find a need for it, so if SPARC sees this, certainly his comments about the board are an attempt to downplay the importance of women in the same sitch having a place to go and discuss it.

JMHO

>It was insulting to me, too.

Each to their own. I don't see what was insulting about his comment.


>He has done nothing toward contributing one drop of
>information, but stirred up a lot of bad feelings.

He's welcome to his somewhat unpopular opinions, just as anyone else here is. I don't see what he's done that's been "out of bounds", so to speak.  He raised a valid, if debatable point, and he's been civil as far as I see.


>
>BTW, there were enough NCP Mom's to start this board and find
>a need for it, so if SPARC sees this, certainly his comments
>about the board are an attempt to downplay the importance of
>women in the same sitch having a place to go and discuss it.

He's welcome to try and downplay whatever he wants. You've been here long enough to know that things don't work that way around here. He's welcome to disagree but I seriously doubt that it's going to change anything.

If this board has a purpose (and I think it does) then it doesn't matter what a particular poster thinks. As far as I know the board is staying, it will not be renamed, and that's that. If things go too far off track either myself or another moderator will come along and clean up, but so far this is a legitimate if somewhat spirited :) discussion.

Whatever, Brent...I'm not responding to him anymore. He's a trouble maker.  

I have been keeping up with the posts here, and it looks like all Gr8 was trying to do, is see if he could get everyone worked up.

Guess what, I think he did just that.

My suggestion is that everybody ignore him (because he obviously doesn't have his priorities in line) and try to deal with more important things, such as how we can get our children back or help our spouses get theirs back.  After all, isn't it all really about what is best for our kids?

I need a place for support and advice. I have no plans to be his entertainment any longer.

Note some of the questions I have posed...if you have any advice or new ideas I would love for you to share it.

TIA,

Olanna

"We don't have a "Dads without Custody" board, do we?" after which Gr8 made his comment. I believe it meant that we don't have room for the names of all the ncp dads.

Jan ENDED her post with, "We don't have a "Dads without Custody" board, do we?"

To which I responded, "There isn't a server in the world that would hold that many names."

Seems quite plain to me.  If I had been commenting on "Mother's Issues", I would have said, "There isn't a server big enough to hold that many ISSUES..."  But I didn't say that, nor do I FEEL that.

Me thinks you were LOOKING for a problem, and as we all know, if you look for the negative, you are bound to find it.

Something to consider here at Sparc...
If this board were called "Mother's Issues" those mothers with custody, those step mothers with custody and step mothers who's spouses do not have custody would all post on the "Mothers Issue" board because they all identify themselves as "Mothers".
The differentiation was a good thing to keep this board to mostly those mothers who are NCP's rather than a hodge podge of posters who identify themselves with "Mothers Issues".
Just my opinion and I may be wrong but it seemed like a logical choice in the forums name given the variety of folks who do post here.

TM

On the Father's Board, there are both CP and NCP fathers who post and respond to it.  That particular board has never differentiated between CP and NCP on that board, as has the entire rest of the site, so I just don't see why it must be done here.........

JMO.........

 
>If this board were called "Mother's Issues" those mothers with
>custody, those step mothers with custody and step mothers
>who's spouses do not have custody would all post on the
>"Mothers Issue" board because they all identify themselves as
>"Mothers".
 
So, are you implying that women should not post on the "fathers issues
" board simply because they are not fathers?

I am damn glad to have this board to come to...I just got word, thanks to a post on this board, that I may be chosen for the Dr. Phil show to help resolve a custody battle and allow me access to my son.

This board rocks..and it the info here helps one child find a reasonable way back to both parents, why complain about it's name?

    " but to place noncustodial Moms in a special category once again "

Please!   So what if the father's board isn't named the same as this one!  Big deal!  It is just a name.

Why does everything always have to be in a "category" when it comes to women? Did you ever stop to think that maybe, JUST MAYBE, not all of the non-custodial mothers deserved to have their children ripped from them? A lot of us are in the same position as non-custodial fathers.

I think this particular board was a very good idea. It wasn't created to ruffle the feathers of the male species, I believe it was created so that mothers can get help, encouragement, advice, and support from others in the same situation. Just as fathers do on the other boards.

I agree that children need both their parents in their lives, but some times that isn't possible.

Non-custodial mothers have to fight just as hard (if not harder) to see their children because of selfish, controlling, manipulative fathers and the need to have control (even after separation/divorce) over the childs mother.  Being a non-custodial parent is just as hard on women as it is on men.

This board has nothing to do with the problems in family law, the problem there, is the legal system.

So, give non-custodial mothers a break! We love our children too.

Just in case you missed it in another post, I will say it again, if you don't like this board don't click on the link to get here.

 

I was the one who first suggested this board, and there were several reasons for it.
[ol]
[li]I have known several custodial fathers who were alienating parents. I feel this type of behavior is just as harmful to the kids if done by a father as it is if done by a mother.

[li]In most divorce cases, one perfectly good parent is demoted by the court to a second class parent status. In most cases this is the father, but ten to fifteen percent of all divorces or separations end up with the mother as the NCP. Ten to fifteen percent is still a huge number of noncustodial mothers. We have always said that children need BOTH parents. This page helps to ensure that all NCPs have that opportunity.

[li]On a number of occasions, SPARC has helped mothers without custody to deal with all of the issues faced by NCPs. Often these mothers were surprised that we were willing to help. This board helps us to show these noncustodial parents that they are welcome and that we want to provide support for their relationships with their children. It gives them a forum where they can get the real help they need, without having to visit the extremist sites where all they hear is that all men are bad and all women would have custody if the courts weren't so corrupt.

[li]I came across the host of this board and her website, http://www.momswithoutcustody.com . I was very impressed, because unlike many NCP (both father and mother advocates) sites she didn't rant and rave about how unfair the courts were or how evil her ex was. Instead she talked about ways to deal with the situation, to improve relationships with the children, and to focus on their needs. That is what SPARC has always tried to do.

[li]We want to help all parents to remain involved in their children's lives after divorce or separation, because that is what is best for the children. We will not adopt the attitudes of some mother and father advocates, who do their best to make it sound like all members of one sex or the other are bad. Proper parenting is a partnership where both parents are equally vital to the children. Divorce or separation doesn't change that, no matter how much one of the parents wants to deny it.[/ol]

When I suggested this page to our webmaster and others on the SPARC team, they all agreed that it was well past time that we did this or something like it. After all, more than 50% of the SPARC visitors and contributors on the forums are Women. They have always been more than willing to help the men here. Why shouldn't the men be willing or able to accept the women on equal terms?

ANd SPARC is very GOOD at true equality.  So where is the "Fathers without custody" board?

All of our boards have always been very father-oriented. We felt this board was needed to let NCP Mothers know that they are welcome, also. This is only necessary because they are a distinct minority on this site.

The Fathers' Issues board has been here for all of the years I've been with SPARC. No-one ever complained that there was no Mothers' Issues board. This is basically that board, though we wanted to focus our support on NCP mothers because they are the ones who most need our resources.

ANd SPARC is very GOOD at true equality. So where is the "Fathers without custody" board?

[em]This whole site was dedicated to "father's without custody" and I way reminded of that several years ago with I suggested a "mother's issues" category to compliment the "father's issues" one.[/em]

Applauds wildly!!

Well said!

>This board, in my opinion, adds to the entire problem with the
>family court, custody and EVERYTHING that is wrong with family
>law today.  It goes to the heart of what we, as father's, are
>trying to fight everyday.  The societal view of each gender,
>and their role in raising the child/children of a marriage or
>relationship.

I'm very sorry that you feel that way. Our goal is basically to help children. I don't feel that making NCP moms welcome here detracts from that goal, or hampers the effectiveness of helping fathers.


>BUT, when we meet a CUSTODIAL Dad, our first thought, even by
>those of us that KNOW that Dads are just as good as Moms at
>raising the children, is "Wow, what did she do wrong?".
>
>Now, how does this board help empower that image?  Well, it
>acts like there are special problems associated with being a
>noncustodial Mom.  Problems that need to be addressed
>separately.  When this is simply NOT the case.  

As a custodial dad, I understand how you feel. This is part of an expanded effort that is in keeping with SPARC's goal of helping children stay connected to both parents. Perhaps an open dialog here will build some bridges or foster some understanding. Perhaps not. Either way, I don't think that SPARC loses anything by recognizing that custody issues aren't solely the province of men.


>I feel that there should be a board for mothers, or women,
>just as there is a board for fathers, but to place
>noncustodial Moms in a special category once again emphasizes
>the nonexistance difference between men and women as parents,
>and martyrs those women that do not get custody of the
>children.

I don't think that the vast majority of visitors to SPARC view NCP moms as martyrs, or think that they deserve special treatment. The ones who do will find out that they're wrong. I understand what you're saying, but I don't feel that being inclusive and offering some support for NCP moms diminishes this site in any way, or that providing a message board for NCP moms will have any downside for men and fathers.


>That is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

I don't think of this as a "right" or "wrong" issue, and I thank you for your opinion, Gr8Dad.

We can't please everyone, and to be true to our cause sometimes means extending ourselves in ways that might make some folks uncomfortable. I hope that you consider that we did this in the context of doing what we can for children.

I'd be interested to hear any suggestions you may have, pro or con. Please feel free to contact me here, or at [email protected] if you'd prefer to have a conversation offline.


-SPARC Admin

Our issues are different. We needed a place to discuss them.

Please explain what is different about women without custody over men without custody.

Want a great recipe for banana bread?

What is different between Moms wiothout custody versus dads without custody?

** The societal view of each gender, and their role in raising the child/children of a marriage or relationship.**

Societal views of Mothers without custody is the FIRST AND BIGGEST DIFFERENCE!!!!!

**BUT, when we meet a CUSTODIAL Dad, our first thought, even by those of us that KNOW that Dads are just as good as Moms at raising the children, is "Wow, what did she do wrong?".**

WHAT TOTAL BIAS a NCP Mom must deal with!!!!! Does an NCP Dad hear "What did you do wrong?" Hell no... because we all "know" all he did wrong was be born male right?

What happens if she did nothing more wrong than attempt to make the best decision she could at the time for her children? Not all mothers without custody are like your Ex GR8... Some are wonderful mothers who attempt to make the best choices they can in the moment and spend the rest of their lives hearing what a piece of s*** they are because they did.

And that being said...

Thank-You to everyone who made this board possible and who provided what we can hope will be an oasis for the 10-15% of us who understand what it is like to be an NCP Mother.

Hopefully this will bring all our children one step closer to EQUAL Parenting Time :-)

TM

And you gave him far more of an answer than I would ever consider!

BRAVO!! BRAVO!!!

I work with a caseload of 1300 students.  Some live with their moms, some live with their dads.  What I see as a commonality is that the parents whether mother or father have the same problems with the kids so to me what is important is that there is a balance in the children's lives.

Many of you know my family's story...I have learned a lot through the school of hard knocks.  TM and Sly have been there through it all to walk along side to kick me when needed and comfort me when needed.

The courts have some changes that need to be made - we'd all agree with that.  I believe Judges are fallible just as the rest of us are.

Yes, the laws need to be changed, and in my state I'm working on that...  It's not just about my family..it's about all the kids out there.

The best gift imo that any parent in a separated setting can give to their child is to reinforce the other parent.  This means don't denigrate the other parent.

The biggest thing I see in kids I work with is that they have been deprived of one parent and it comes back to bite the cp during the teenage years.  It's wrong...Both parents are needed to raise up a child - even if one parent isn't what we consider to be a good parent.  What is important is that the children are given what is needed.

From my vantage point, were I do do GAL work at this point in time, I'd try to be fair and balanced, which means looking at which parent will be better at supporting the other parent's parenting of the child.

TCB is correct that it is usually the women here (many who are NCP's) who are the greatest support to the men on the boards.  I am a grandmother and I know the ladies here have helped me tons.

Rather than getting mad about stuff, we have to keep trying...  Get the laws changed if we're not happy with them.  Look at what is good for the kids.  

My experience is that gender doesn't determine which parent is best.

We've learned that you can have the best case in the world and think you have it in the bag...in the end you don't because things happen...

Let's support each other.  I think the idea of a mother's board is great.  Mothers are people too.  The issues are the same.  And..mothers feel the same when they are deprived of their children as father's do.

We need to have a little bit of heart for others.  Remember it's not about only us.

Granny

[em]Please explain what is different about women without custody over men without custody.[/em]

Think about what you said...that society assumes that when a father has "custody", that the mother did something wrong.  

A man who fights for custody and loses...is a martyr.

A woman who fights for custody and loses...is obviously a "bad" mother.

A man who chooses to be a NCP because it's the best thing for the children...is a good father.

A woman who chooses to be a NCP because it's the best thing for the children...is a selfish mother.

JUST as society and the courts can be BIASED against fathers when it comes to divorce, they are JUDGMENTAL with regards to mothers.  

The ideal is that there would be parenting equality between the genders however reality is far from it.

It is prevalent right now that NCFathers endure the gender bias during the custody battle/divorce proceedings.

NCMothers endure the societal gender bias the moment AFTER becoming a non-custodial parent and forever more.  

For the most part, NCFathers are NOT considered societal lepers if they are the non-custodial parent.  It is NOT automatically assumed that the father is a unfit parent because he lost residential custody placement of his child(ren).


The majority of the NCMothers that are on this board truly believe in shared parenting.  They believe that both father and mother are what is best for a child.  Operative word, BOTH.

Whether you want to admit it or not (you wouldn't know, you do not have any experience being a non-custodial MOTHER), there are some experiences non-residential/custodial mothers endure that non-residential/custodial fathers are not subjected to because societal expectations on each familial role is DIFFERENT.  It isn't the same nor are the mainstream expectations of each parent so there is a disparity in how each gender is treated within the exact same parental category.

It is wonderful to meet other NCMothers who have similiar role experiences...I can relate to NCFathers on most NCP issues, but not all of them.  I suppose until I see NCFathers walk into a classroom and have it implied that he did something wrong to be a non-custodial parent...will their be equality as NCPs.  Just as I know that NCMothers cannot possibly know how it feels to begin a custody battle at a disadvantage due to gender bias BEFORE losing custody.

Well said!

"That is just my opinion, I could be wrong."


You are so wrong.   Thank you for acknowledging it.

The stigma attached to non custodial moms has nothing to do with society or....gender roles or ANYTHING except maternal instinct. While in college I learned about the chemical/biological aspects of maternal instincts and was intrigued/fascinated and I stood in awe of of how we as humans are created.  The class was taught by a secular minded and pretty objective professor and honestly..the bottom line is that maternal instinct is fierce and incredibly powerful.  Men cannot identify with it.  It's hard to say that to a man b/c it seems to be construed as some sort of insult.  

However this is simply not the case.  Mothers and fathers compliment each other to form a complete puzzle if you will..for lack of a better term. When a woman is apart from her child there is an incredible tear in the fabric of the very depth of her being and nothing anyone can say will ever be able to change that.  That said..when a mother is away from her child people instinctively know what something is wrong.  Not wrong in the sense that the mother screwed up.  Wrong in the sense that we as humans recognize...even if it's subconsciously....that the maternal instinct and bond is real and if a mother and child are seperated the pain is unreal and both mother and child go through hell.  The same hell is experienced when a father is seperated with a child as well..but on a much different level.  We carry our babies inside of us.  

They know the sound of our heartbeat.  They have seen the inner part of us that even we will never know. We feel their first movements and bond with them before anyone else does.  We create food especially for them and our bodies will let us suffer before they will let the unborn ever go without.  This is fact.  It is real.  And even if we aren't aware of these things....our minds still know and this is why society wonders how a woman can be away from her child.  It is possible and it happens regularly in our society.  Keep in mind that only in American and less frequently in Europe is it viewed as acceptable for mothers to be away from their children.  The mother/child relationship is sacred in most other countries.  Anyways..my point is that this attitude will never go away. It can't.  And it doesn't detract from the role of the father at all.  Be secure in knowing that as a father you are the rock.  No one else can ever be that.  

-Meighan

I see no problem with SPARC, but in some ways you are absolutely right. When people meet a non-custodial Dad, they think nothing of it.... like the child's school for example. But say a non-custodial Mom shows up requesting a copy of progress reports for her child (this has happened to me many times)... immediately there is a prejudice against non-custodial Mom's because people believe that if that Mom lost custody she must have done something terrible. It doesn't occur to anyone that simply not having legal representation could lose a case for you right away. and non-custodial Mom's are faced with obstacles beyond experiences with her ex. School administrators are aprehensive and sometimes rude about request of records.  and suddenly we don't feel comfortable in our own children's school. like an outcast. i cannot say that this doesn't happen to non-custodial Dads, but that certainly they are overlooked (unjustly) and non-custodial Moms are judged (unjustly).
it is difficult to even answer questions, when at the doctor's office or registering my child for extra cirricular activities.... to tell someone that i am not 'primary residential parent'... i am embarrassed...... it begins to make me feel like i did something wrong, when i know i did not and i know, without hesitation that i am what is best for my children. you cannot expect to get justice in court... and to me that is sad.

WOW....I just don't know what to say!!!  What a mess this has become....

Well, I guess, for me, the biggest thing is that we are all here for our children.  To do what is best for them.  And whether you are a CP or NCP,  it doesn't matter.  

Everyone is entitled to their opinions on various issues, but doesn't fighting about the name of a certain board take away from why we are all really here?

Sad facts are,, all too often when a dad DOES win custody, its because of deficits in moms parenting. How many CP dads on the boards or in your everyday lives do you really know? How many of them got custody based on mom being mentally ill, hooked on drugs, or violent?


Then  of course it gets translated to,, every ncp mom gets to bear that stigma.


Its no different than the ncp dad who falls behind on cs,, and immediately gets labeled a deadbeat dad. Regardless of WHY, he's got the stigma to bear for all the bums who caused the label to be coined.



Once just as many dads are cp as moms,, or better yet, 50/50 becomes the norm,, the stigma will go away.

Dads have to fight SO hard to be involved with their kids that when they are given custody, they likely have had to paint the BM in as unfavorable light as possible.  In your situation, as with gr8dad, you guys have fought and fought and fought and, as with gr8dad, even with overwhelming evidence of the utter incapabilities of the mother, it
STILL isn't a done deal.  Thus, because the fights are so acrimonious, many making local headlines, the NCP mother is painted in an extremely bad light.  

And this country is known for stereotyping, too.  They hear of these horror stories and quickly assume that ANY mother that ends up as an NCP, REGARDLESS of the circumstances, must have done something very terrible to lose their children.

And that's only one side.  On the other, you have CP fathers who are just as vindictive and volatile as many of the BM's we hear about here every day.  JMO, but I think the only thing that would help with that prevalent attitude is more JPC legislation.  Once you even out the playing field, neither parent can be reflected in a bad light.

What needs to be changed also is getting away from the stereotypes and changing attitudes.  And if wishes were horses........

maybe what it boils down to is that divorce really brings out everyone's anger and wish to get back at the other person. and in the case of custody some parents choose to be vindictive in how that attain custody.... then in the end, the CP is intoxicated by the 'win'. that they have somehow gotten one over the other party. it is the power... and i think it can be a mom or a dad.... selfishness is not gender specific.
there are so many issues when we even begin to talk about becoming equal when it comes to custody, primarily because we are in no way equal or the same. i truly believe that there are father's out there that are as in tune to their children's needs as a mother is... like knowing what an infant or child needs just by hearing the pitch of the cry. but i think we all have to admit, those fathers are few and far between. but we should very much recognize them when we see them.
so again when we open up the can of 'equal' worms... does this mean the door is now opened to say...... then the children should possibly have the mother's last name instead of keeping the father's name?
i am not trying to start a fight mind you... this is something that never occurred to me until two weeks ago when my children asked me about it. i am getting remarried next month and they brought up that i would have a different last name. They said (on their own) that they would like to change their name to also have my name. I explained to them that they are their father's children born of our marriage and that they should have their father's name... and i had no doubts about that belief until their response was that they are my children to and deserve to have my last name also. what is equality when it comes to custody?

maybe what it boils down to is that divorce really brings out everyone's anger and wish to get back at the other person. and in the case of custody some parents choose to be vindictive in how that attain custody.... then in the end, the CP is intoxicated by the 'win'. that they have somehow gotten one over the other party. it is the power... and i think it can be a mom or a dad.... selfishness is not gender specific.
there are so many issues when we even begin to talk about becoming equal when it comes to custody, primarily because we are in no way equal or the same. i truly believe that there are father's out there that are as in tune to their children's needs as a mother is... like knowing what an infant or child needs just by hearing the pitch of the cry. but i think we all have to admit, those fathers are few and far between. but we should very much recognize them when we see them.
so again when we open up the can of 'equal' worms... does this mean the door is now opened to say...... then the children should possibly have the mother's last name instead of keeping the father's name?
i am not trying to start a fight mind you... this is something that never occurred to me until two weeks ago when my children asked me about it. i am getting remarried next month and they brought up that i would have a different last name. They said (on their own) that they would like to change their name to also have my name. I explained to them that they are their father's children born of our marriage and that they should have their father's name... and i had no doubts about that belief until their response was that they are my children to and deserve to have my last name also. what is equality when it comes to custody?

Quit going there and arguing with them.  No one is forcing you to be here.