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Ok, I have a medically challenged child.  He is mentally handicapped and mildly physically handicapped.

His Dad is AWOL, and refuses to speak to me about much of anything unless I go through his new wife instead.  Won't happen so therefore we do not speak.

Our child has a rare chromosomal disorder in which roughly only 600 kids in the world have been medically diagnosed.  We have been offered a place in a genetics study that will not only map out our child's future road but what could possibly pop up on his future road.  Noone knows what could happen but the study would give us quite a few roads to pick from at least.

Not only will this help our child it will be published in a medical journal and will ultimately help the entire population as there is nothing on record of any substantial help for any of us.  Needless to say this study is important.

To my questiona now.  Sent a letter to Dad and actually send two, first one was sent Restricted Certified and they let SM pick it up!  Sent a second one Restricted Certified and explained why and BF did pick it up, but sent a letter back that he shares all information with his wife and duplicate materials were not necessary.  He also requested to actually speak to the Dr conducting the study.  Buwhahahaha.  I really don't think the Professor of Peds at the University is going to sit and talk to him since I couldn't get near him at a National conference.  But hey, I will give you the information.

I had the Dr's office that was taking the information down to GIVE to the Professors study give him a call.

Guess who he got to speak with..Yeah SM took the message and told them that he would likely submit to the bloodwork crutial for submission for the study to map out the genetics of the disorder.

That was a month ago and I have called the Dr's office once a week to see if he has given the bloodwork.  They have called 3 times too.

Now I am on a time crunch to get this in and I have no idea what to do.  I had asked the fake SOC what to do a while back if he wouldn't comply and he said it was an infringment of his civil rights...blah blah blah.

Anyway does anyone know what I could file to compel him to submit to the bloodwork needed to help our child?  This is not life or death like a kidney transplant or anything but the opportunities from the outcome of this study could change his whole way of life.

I am 98% sure once I file something he will go take it so he knows I'm serious, but what the hell do I file this under???  We are in MN.

Thanks to anyone that can help me.

I wonder if you could file a "Motion to Show Cause" because Dad is interfering by not cooperating with son's medical care by not providing some blood?

Explain in the Motion everything you've explained here and your requests and attempts to get Dad to cooperate along with those of the medical office.

Maybe once dad sees the motion, he'll show up, and then you can withdraw your motion.

Focus on the fact that it's medically necessary for the son.

And I wonder -- is dad possibly permanently on the hook because your son will always be a dependent adult when he gets older?

It's in the child's best interest to heal and move forward -- and if dad needs too cooperate, maybe this part needs to be pointed out to dad as well.

I'm also thinking along the lines of the "3 elements of contempt" that the old Soc posted a while ago -- and honestly, it's probably not part of the order, but if you bring in an expert witness to testify to the need for the son for the father to provide a sample, I'm on the side that a judge would order it.

I guess I'm a little confused.

Who has legal custody?
Who has physical custody?

If you have sole legal custody, you can presumably take care of it yourself.

If you have joint legal custody, you can probably take care of it yourself (but check with an attorney).

If you don't have legal custody, then you're going to have to either petition the court to order it (although I suspect that this is not going to be a slam-dunk since it's not medically necessary by normal standards) or you can bribe the father to allow it. What can you offer him in return (either more time with the kid, explain the benefit to the kid, or whatever).

What was confusing?

I have sole physical custody and joint legal custody.  Their father hasn't seen or spoken to them in 3 years.

I can't take care of anything myself under any type of custody arrangement, since we need both parents blood to map his genetic code.

As stated before I have sent 2 letters spelling this out step by step what was needed and or required of him and the Dr's office has called a total of 4 times to get him to come in over a months time.

I need either expert advice or someone who has tried to manuever this type of delicate situation, or something similar.  I can't make him come in but I can sure make him "think" he is obligated to do so as medically necessary for his child's sake...do you get where I am going here?

Bottom line he is an A-hole and has stated that he has a normal child now he needs to take care of.  So whatever I have to file to make this sperm donor get his ass in the Dr's office to give 3 viles of blood so his child may go on to lead a semi independent life, I have turned here for some advice.

Sorry if I seem rude but it hasn't been a good day.

Thanks Mixed.  I was thinking of a Motion to show cause too.  It worked last time after asking for insurance cards repeatedly for 2 years.

He will be a dependent adult.  He will not be able to live on his own....This is already in my head. He is young still but we are already setting the wheels in motion to build a house on enough land for him to live semi-independent when it is time or have an apartment connected to our house.  It sounds weird to be thinking that far ahead, but it will arrive soon enough.

What do you mean that this part needs to be pointed out?

File an emergency hearing and ask the court to order him to submit to all required medical tests and/or provide all information required so the child can participate in the study.

I think if you put the information in the motion as you did above, with the specifics (like name of condition, etc.) - that any judge in their right mind (or wrong mind - this is a no brainer) will order him to comply with this. Also, ask in your order that SM be prohibited from acting as secretary and running interferance as SHE has no biological connection to this matter and the information needs to come from the people with a biological connection only.

What a jerk!

What wasn't clear was that you wanted the father to submit to blood testing. From your original post, I assumed that you needed the child's blood.

I suspect that you're out of luck. I doubt very much if you can force an adult to submit to this type of testing. Check with an attorney, but I just don't think it's going to fly. It's an invasion of privacy by any standard. If there were an immediate benefit for the child, you just might have an outside chance (but even then, it doesn't seem likely).

For whatever reason, he's not willing to go out of his way - and you can't force him. Reading between the lines, I suspect that he's doing it to p*** you off - I don't think there's much reasonable communication going on. OTOH, maybe he's the one who's p**** off ("sperm donor" comments, for example). My advice would therefore be for you to drop it and ask a third party to discuss it with him (pastor, mutual friend, one of the child's grandparents, etc).

What you're doing isn't working and I suspect (but check with a lawyer since I could be wrong) that you can't force him, so find another approach.

>File an emergency hearing and ask the court to order him to
>submit to all required medical tests and/or provide all
>information required so the child can participate in the
>study.
>
>I think if you put the information in the motion as you did
>above, with the specifics (like name of condition, etc.) -
>that any judge in their right mind (or wrong mind - this is a
>no brainer) will order him to comply with this. Also, ask in
>your order that SM be prohibited from acting as secretary and
>running interferance as SHE has no biological connection to
>this matter and the information needs to come from the people
>with a biological connection only.
>
>What a jerk!

He may or may not be a jerk, but I suspect that what you're suggesting won't work.

First, I don't think the court can force him to submit to blood work which has no immediate benefit to the child. (even if it DOES have immediate benefit, I'm not sure they can do it). Second, he's an adult. If he wants his wife to handle his correspondence, that's well within his rights. As for being a jerk, remember that you're hearing only one side of the story - I guess I've become a bit jaded. There are too many times when you hear one side of the story and you think that the other person is a jerk, but as more and more facts come out, you realize that there's much more to the story.

As I explained in my other post, my suggestion would be for the bm to drop it and ask someone else to intervene. For whatever reason, the two parents are unable to communicate meaningfully. A third party might be able to convince him of the value of the testing without getting into a fight (which simply causes him to walk away).

I would also suggest that the two of them consider counseling (separately, of course) to help deal with all the hostility issues that are obviously buried here. If he won't go, then she should get some counseling to deal with issues.

>Focus on the fact that it's medically necessary for the son.
>

There's the rub. Based on the facts in the post, it's not medically necessary for the son. It's a medical research study that MIGHT have some benefit in the long run. More likely, it will have some benefit for future children who suffer from the disease.

Is it a worthy thing for the father to give the blood sample? Sure. Is it something that he should be encouraged to do? Absolutely.

But I don't see anything that makes it medically necessary. Furthermore, I'm not sure that you can force someone to give blood against their will even if it IS medically necessary.

Mist,

It is medically necessary, per the original post, to map the child's future (the genetic mapping of the disease will indicate what is most likely to happen later in life such as secondary conditions, etc.). It could also provide an indicator of a more effective treatment to utilize.

I suspect the poster is frustrated because while she loves her child, she has been effectively left "holding" the bag in assuming all care taking responsibilities for a special needs child while the father has remarried and now has a "normal" child to look after. This child needs his attention too. If all he is willing to give is a blood sample, then so be it, but he should at least be willing to give that. He certainly didn't have a problem with giving a sperm sample while creating this child.

I do believe it is worth a shot for her to take it to court. They are running out of time to get the child involved in the program.

It is highly inappropriate for the new wife to be the sole source of communication. I would never expect my wife to take this role and I believe this poster is in the right in her objection to this. In our case, my ex wife makes false allegations about events that take place at exchanges so my wife does come along for these but does not speak to or otherwise interact with my ex at all.

I think it is worth a try for her to take this to court. The guy is a cad for ignoring this child and should not have the opportunity to have any "normal" children for his behavior.

JMHO - I don't have a legal basis for this - but I KNOW what is right.

>Mist,
>
>It is medically necessary, per the original post, to map the
>child's future (the genetic mapping of the disease will
>indicate what is most likely to happen later in life such as
>secondary conditions, etc.). It could also provide an
>indicator of a more effective treatment to utilize.

Sorry, but that doesn't meet any standard of 'medically necessary' I've ever seen. You might try, for example, http://www.spannj.org/Family2Family/medically_necessary_services.htm.
The original post admitted that it might not make any difference but MIGHT help to map future treatments. But since no one knows whether it would be beneficial, it's not going to meet the standard.

Furthermore, even if it WERE medically necessary, I'm not convinced that the courts have the authority to require someone else to submit to testing. For example, if you have kidney failure, do the courts have the right to order your sister to give you her kidney? Of course not. Different magnitude, but same rule. The courts have a very high regard to respect for privacy and personal rights.

Don't let what you THINK should be done confuse the matter of what the courts have the right to order.

He's still a piece of shit in my opinion. I know that doesn't go far in the court's eyes, but if he doesn't do what is right for the child - he will get his in the end. Karma has a way of biting you in the ass one day.

Thanks for your objective view. It is good to have someone who can keep the emotional aspect of things separate. It's just hard to swallow sometimes.

>He's still a piece of shit in my opinion. I know that doesn't
>go far in the court's eyes, but if he doesn't do what is right
>for the child - he will get his in the end. Karma has a way of
>biting you in the ass one day.
>

Before labelling someone, it's worth remembering that you're only hearing one side if the story. I've been around enough to know that he would undoubtedly tell a very different tale.  Don't jump to conclusions based on one side - especially when that side is clearly very emotional about the whole thing.

While I agree that it would be reasonable for him to give the blood samples - BASED ON THE INFORMATION PROVIDED, that doesn't guarantee that we know the whole story.

But the courts DO order testing all the time.......psychological testing.  And to be honest, there's no difference in the eyes of the law.  Testing is testing, whether it's physical or mental.  So if the courts can order a psych eval. AND technically hold someone in contempt if they refuse, then they have the capacity to order tests like this also.

And everyone is making good arguments or points -- there is no clear cut answer.

Kitty makes a good point down below -- but so do the others.

Is dad gonna be on the hook for child support "forever" since the child is (more than likely) be a dependent adult?

No, planning for a future is not unrealistic even if its down the road.  You know best as to what you and your child are facing.

I would keep asking dad to provide the sample and yes, I would be trying to get the court to support ordering dad to provide the sample until the court told me nope.

It's about helping the child who is already facing tough challenges....

Misto-  Normally I never agree with you, but you are correct, to a degree, I can't force him to submit to testing, but the bulb isn't too bright and I can scare him into thinking he has to by drawing up a motion and filing it.  In all likelyhood he will go after that.

Notnew- yes he is a piece of shit.  His own family agrees completely.  He forces me to speak to his wife and his wife only of which I do not agree with and something I do not do to my current husband.  I had children with him, not her, and my current husband had kids with his ex, you deal with her.  (to ease Mistos one sided story- I have oodles and oodles of emails and voicemails and letters stating that his wife comes first and I will never come between them, therefore since they are married she has ever right to speak to me about the children and or be involved in everything we talk about.  I believe he should discuss things with her like scheduling and visits and the like,but HE should discuss it with HER NOT ME.  He believes I should be forced to deal with her directly and WAY too much has happened for me to have a civilized conversation with her.  I would like to deal with him, not her, and he will not allow that.  If I call there, I am put on speaker and she gets to say whatever she likes to me.  So therefore I do not speak to her and since I don't, he will not speak to me. No amount of counseling on the planet will fix this.  I have NO problems dealing with him.  If I could get him into a room alone, we would be fine.  She has some kind of spell or control issue over him like I have never seen before.   2 judges told her to keep her nose out of it, and that we should never have any reason to speak, and one final point is she is bi-polar NOT medicated, and has tried to kill herself at least 35 times in one year.  She is ordered to never be alone with our children, because she tried while they were in her care.  Plenty of police reports filed by my ex on HER to back up my side of the story.


Kitty- I think your right too, they order testing for child support too and hold you in contempt if someone points a finger at you and says "your my baby's daddy", so maybe this will be one for the record books??  They order DNA testing, Drug testing, Random UA's, treatment, psychological testing, counseling etc...how is this different from any of that?

All I am really looking for here is what I should call my motion? Like I said he hates court, so if he sees I am serious about this, he will more than likely go do it.

>But the courts DO order testing all the
>time.......psychological testing.  And to be honest, there's
>no difference in the eyes of the law.  Testing is testing,
>whether it's physical or mental.  So if the courts can order a
>psych eval. AND technically hold someone in contempt if they
>refuse, then they have the capacity to order tests like this
>also.

Actually, they almost never do in a case like this. In this case, the father has nothing to do with the son. The only time I've ever seen psychological testing ordered is if it's there to determine whether the child is safe with a parent - and even in that case the parent is free to decline (although they're not going to get to see the kid, then).

I can't imagine a scenario where a court would order psychological testing for an absent parent.

>Misto-  Normally I never agree with you, but you are correct,
>to a degree, I can't force him to submit to testing, but the
>bulb isn't too bright and I can scare him into thinking he has
>to by drawing up a motion and filing it.  In all likelyhood he
>will go after that.
>
>
[snip]
>
>All I am really looking for here is what I should call my
>motion? Like I said he hates court, so if he sees I am serious
>about this, he will more than likely go do it.
>

Sorry, but I happen to be a person that believes that the ends don't justify the means. You admit that your motion is invalid, but you're going to submit it anyway to blackmail him into doing what you want - even though you admit that the court would never agree.

In fact, if by some odd chance he were to find your post here and submit it to the court, you could technically be in contempt.

I'd find it pretty hard to sleep at night if I resorted to unethical behavior like that.

I've already given my suggestion that doesn't involve any unethical behavior. If you prefer underhanded actions, I guess that's your privilege.

Blackmail?  I don't believe I would call it blackmail, and I have every intention of trying to ask the court for help.

I think the court will agree using supportive arguments that this will make his life more fruitful and with any substantial findings could make him a candidate for gene therapy.

Unless you have a special needs child you will never know what a parent will do or try to help their child.

If I gotta blackmail him, threaten him, hog tie him and duct tape him and bring him to the dr's office to get him to submit to 3 viles, yes all that is required is THREE viles of blood and he can be on his merry way, I will do it.

I am absolutely positive you would do the same if you were in my position and had a chance at a "cure" or half a cure, you would do everything in your power to make the other parent submit to the testing.

If I have to be underhanded, and unethical, that isn't what doesn't let me sleep at night, its knowing that my kid has a father that has dumped him and doesn't give a rip if he lives or dies.


BTW, we have a "normal" child together too of which is the ONLY recipent of Birthday cards and Christmas cards, and Easter cards.  So if you are trying to convince me to not be deceiving to get him to do what his child needs...your barking up the wrong tree.  I am way beyond that point.

Whether you like it or not, 'blackmail' is the word for what you're doing. You admitted that the court would not order him to give the blood, yet you're going to file, anyway, in the hopes that he'll give in to avoid court. That's blackmail.

Yes, I'm sure that you think this is important. It may even be as important as you claim. But until you've exhausted legitimate methods, I think resorting to blackmail makes you every bit as bad as him.

Your on crack I swear.

If I thought he was on drugs and I filed to have him submit to drug testing in hopes that he would stop and he did stop to avoid court is that blackmail too?  Then every contempt case ever filed is therefore by your definition blackmail since it is filed for whatever reason in hopes of payment extorted by intimidation ( the action of court and contempt charges for your personal gain whether it be monetary, visitation, makeup visits, whatever)

How is this blackmail, here is the actual definition of blackmail:

black·mail      /ˈblækˌmeɪl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[blak-meyl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. any payment extorted by intimidation, as by threats of injurious revelations or accusations.  

2. the extortion of such payment: He confessed rather than suffer the dishonor of blackmail.  

3. a tribute formerly exacted in the north of England and in Scotland by freebooting chiefs for protection from pillage.  

I haven't threatened him, and I am askling a court to intervene on our child's behalf.  I think you are confusing this with this is for my benefit.  It is for his child's benefit to submit to this test not mine.  He sure didn't mind submitting a sample previous to create this life, I will do my damnest to force him to give him what he needs.  He is not going to get off the hook that easy.

I tend to file to compel him to submit to the blood test, and if it gets to court I will let you know, and I will let you know if the judge orders him to submit too.

If he does it beforehand, hey, then in your eyes I blackmailed the hell out of him.  And guess what, I won't lose a milisecond of sleep over it.

Blackmail...you either submit to testing or you don't see your kid....those damn judges are blackmailing EVERYONE!!!  

Go for it!  File a Motion to Compel. That is what you should title it.

I agree with you 100% although I do believe that Mist may have some merit on the issue of the court ordering a blood test. However, I think that your reasons are compelling enough so that the court will see that this is something that is medically necessary and so order the BF to provide the samples.

Wow, that is even worse that you two have a child together with no problems and he ignores the other one. There is something wrong with that guy. He has issues related to him creating a child that is not "perfect". Believe me, he will have more problems in his life related to his own mental issues.

I am sure dealing with all of this has been very difficult for you and stressful. I do understand how you want to do whatever possible to aid your child. I feel sorry for your son who has to know that his father has rejected him because of his problems. It's enough to deal with everyone else in the world staring and treating you like a freak, much less your own father. I have an aunt who has Cerebral Palsy and she was just like anyone else to me, part of our family and we spent time together and everything. It made me angry when others treated her poorly because of her condiiton.

I will be looking for your posting with the outcome of this and I am hoping that the tests get ordered.

>Your on crack I swear.

Rule #1.  When you resort to ad hominem attacks, it's usually a sign that you've lost the argument - and know it.

Now, let's look at the first definition you provided:
"–noun 1. any payment extorted by intimidation, as by threats of injurious revelations or accusations. "

YOu're trying to get him to provide a payment (submission of blood samples requiring him to give up his time and effort) by making threats that even you admit are probably not valid.

Seems to me that your own definition supports my position.

>Blackmail...you either submit to testing or you don't see
>your kid....those damn judges are blackmailing EVERYONE!!!  

You need to learn the difference between blackmail and court orders.

In the REAL world, there's a huge difference.

The worst thing that can happen is she can file and the court can say no. If that happens, then at least she did everything in her power to help her child.

If she doesn't try, she will never know what may happen and she'll always second guess herself for not trying.

>The worst thing that can happen is she can file and the court
>can say no. If that happens, then at least she did everything
>in her power to help her child.
>
>If she doesn't try, she will never know what may happen and
>she'll always second guess herself for not trying.
>
>


That may be true.

However, you'll notice that I offered a suggestion which is completely legal and nonconfrontational which she refuses to even consider.

It appears to me that there's a lot more involved here than she's letting on. She's obviously got a lot of pent up hatred and anger which is directed at the ex (as well as directed at me and anyone who disagrees with her). By going to court, she's fanning the flames - and almost ensures that she won't get what she wants. She seems more intent on proving that the other person is evil than in getting something beneficial for the child.

I think that the OP is trying to do right by her child and seems to be, according to her posts, the ONLY parent concerned with doing so.

Maybe she is angry and bitter......we have no idea what it is like to be soley responsible for a special needs child.  

>I think that the OP is trying to do right by her child and
>seems to be, according to her posts, the ONLY parent concerned
>with doing so.
>
>Maybe she is angry and bitter......we have no idea what it is
>like to be soley responsible for a special needs child.  
>
>

That may well be. But it doesn't change the fact that throwing fuel onto the fire is NOT likely to result in an improved situation - particularly when there are other options that MIGHT.

Sigh.

Misto-  I cannot use a third party because he will simply tell them to F-off.  I have tried to use his NINE sisters and to no avail, they have all been told to F-off.  Of course I got some pent up anger towards him.  He went from being a fantastic dad, yes I said fantastic, to this person I don't even know, that wants nothing to do with his children.

I can only (as well as his family) guess it all leads to the wife and her instability.  I will NOT be forced to have to deal with her or go through her to speak to my ex husband about OUR kids especially when she tried to commit suicide while they were there! WATCHING it all transpire. Every judge on the planet we have met with agrees with me.

I got some issues with her and the judge(s) agree she's unstable.  I could of blocked his visitation from that whole stint but I didn't, they needed to still see their father.  It wasn't his fault.

I already told you I agree with you but you are the one that doesn't like the course of action I am going to take, I am "unethical" and "my underhanded actions", and I am "blackmailing him" and "that makes me just as bad as him".  Who is doing the name calling.

I expressly asked for posters who had good ideas on how to approach this, and anyone who has had to do anything similar, you are entitled to your opinion of who I am.  I have been here a hell of a lot longer than you have, and to those who know me here "really well" know I am telling the truth about their father.  So you can judge me but you don't know the whole story and even though its my side, I would be happy to send you the court documents and every other piece of evidence I keep so you can see his side.

Thanks for your opinion but cutting me down was not what I was looking for I was looking for ways around the system to get him to help his child.  Simple as that.  I don't care that you think I shouldn't, I want you to help me find ways to show him why he should.

Only good can come from this whole procedure.  I just want to have our child be able to have a chance at every opportunity that is given to him.  Something you don't think about I bet, whether your kids will need to live with you for the rest of your life or what home your going to put them in, going to court to remain their legal guardian when they turn 18 because they will not be able to make any decisions for themselves.  Setting up trusts and wills so if you die the state doesn't decide your child's fate. How long will they live? I guarantee you this is nothing you think about.

So Misto, give me some ideas on how I can get his father to participate because I have tried everything.  Family friends, email, personal mail, restricted mail, his parents, his sisters, he doesnt' got to church so paster is out.  Counseling is out I can't even get him to mediation.  I would love to be able to talk to him but I am not allowed.  His wife intercepts every phone call, email, letter, etc..I dont' even think he gets half of it.

He wants nothing and I mean nothing to do with his children....and before you tell me to move on...ain't gonna happen. TWO parents created this child and TWO parents are going to help him if it kills me.

I think the fake soc is right.  

I have two different perspectives on this.  As a mother with a jerky ex and even worse ex's wife, I really don't think either one of them will agree to it.  Just let it go.

As a scientist, it depends on why they want the parents' DNA.  It could be they're looking for a transversion or something of that sort to see how it is transmitted.  If it is a transversion, it could have been inherited from one parent or the other or it could be new in this particular child.  If it's a different type of mutation, they may want to use FISH or some other such technology to see if other siblings and parents have the same mutation.  BUT, on the other hand, if they have 600 patients, there are 1200 other parents and having each and every one might not make much difference.  Or they might not have a clue what kind or where the genetic defect is.

Does this condition have a name?

It does have a name and you have hit the nail right on the head.

They want to see if it is denovo or if one of us is a carrier.  If one of us is a carrier then our other child must be tested as well because then he may be a carrier.  They are also able to tell if a certian piece or chunk is missing in certain regions what seems to be affected by these pieces missing...ie speech, walking, talking, kidneys, seizures etc...

Are you a scientist?  I would be happy to speak to you in private, it is rare enough that it wouldn't take much for anyone to figure us out and I would like to protect the identity of myself and my children on this board.

Thanks!

>It does have a name and you have hit the nail right on the
>head.
>
>They want to see if it is denovo or if one of us is a carrier.
> If one of us is a carrier then our other child must be tested
>as well because then he may be a carrier.  They are also able
>to tell if a certian piece or chunk is missing in certain
>regions what seems to be affected by these pieces missing...ie
>speech, walking, talking, kidneys, seizures etc...
>
>Are you a scientist?  I would be happy to speak to you in
>private, it is rare enough that it wouldn't take much for
>anyone to figure us out and I would like to protect the
>identity of myself and my children on this board.

But there's nothing there which indicates any reason to believe that they have a treatment plan which would improve his condition based on the results of testing the father.

If you can't demonstrate that, you don't have any chance. Even if you CAN demonstrate that the father's test results would result in an effective treatment protocol, you don't have much chance, but I just can't imagine why a court would order his testing.

Furthermore, you don't seem to understand the genetics involved. If your one son has it, then the other son could be a carrier. Testing the father doesn't tell you anything new.

>>It does have a name and you have hit the nail right on the
>>head.
>>
>>They want to see if it is denovo or if one of us is a
>carrier.
>> If one of us is a carrier then our other child must be
>tested
>>as well because then he may be a carrier.  They are also
>able
>>to tell if a certian piece or chunk is missing in certain
>>regions what seems to be affected by these pieces
>missing...ie
>>speech, walking, talking, kidneys, seizures etc...
>>
>>Are you a scientist?  I would be happy to speak to you in
>>private, it is rare enough that it wouldn't take much for
>>anyone to figure us out and I would like to protect the
>>identity of myself and my children on this board.
>
>But there's nothing there which indicates any reason to
>believe that they have a treatment plan which would improve
>his condition based on the results of testing the father.
>
>If you can't demonstrate that, you don't have any chance. Even
>if you CAN demonstrate that the father's test results would
>result in an effective treatment protocol, you don't have much
>chance, but I just can't imagine why a court would order his
>testing.
>
>Furthermore, you don't seem to understand the genetics
>involved. If your one son has it, then the other son could be
>a carrier. Testing the father doesn't tell you anything new.


Mist - I have to disagree with you here. Testing the father will allow them to map the genetic code and figure out how the condition is behaving, passing on, etc. It could well determine if the healthy son should decide to have children or not. It could also indicate if the father has passed this condition on to the child he has had with his new wife should the father be shown to be the carrier.

I had decided to bow out of these postings as obviously, Sunshine has made a connection with someone who has a lot more knowledge then any of us on this matter however. I felt that I had to reply to you though, there is information needed that is critical for the father to provide a sample.

Perhaps the father is dragging his feet because he doesn't want to deal with the ramifications in his mind that he may have also passed this to the other healthy children he has. Maybe it's a mental block thing with him. Who knows, but all of those children deserve to know the answers.

JMHO.

>
>Mist - I have to disagree with you here. Testing the father
>will allow them to map the genetic code and figure out how the
>condition is behaving, passing on, etc. It could well

Wrong. Knowing the FATHER's genetic makeup will not tell you how the condition is behaving in a child. In the rare cases where the genetic makeup is relevant, they can determine it by testing the child, not the father.

It is clear from reading the OPs post that there's really no clear benefit to the child, but that she has been asked to participate in a research study which might someday lead to something useful, particularly for future generations. That's not something that obligates the father to be tested - particularly since it's not at all clear that testing him adds ANY value other than in a theoretical sense.

>determine if the healthy son should decide to have children or
>not. It could also indicate if the father has passed this
>condition on to the child he has had with his new wife should
>the father be shown to be the carrier.

Whether the father has passed the condition on to his other children by a different woman is none of the OP's business. Do you understand what divorce means?

Besides, they don't need the father to be tested, anyway if the interest is simply finding if he's a carrier. If it's dominant and if the child has it and the mother does not, then it must have come from the father. If the mother has it, it's extremely unlikely that it came from the father (since it's quite rare) (plus, they can usually determine if the child has both copies of a dominant gene).

However, it almost certainly recessive since the parents don't suffer from the disease (although there are a few very rare dominant genes which are activated by the environment, for example). If it's recessive, then both parents must have it by definition and therefore both parents are carriers.

It really would be helpful if you didn't discuss scientific concepts you don't understand.

It would be really helpful if you didn't make offensive statements.

I never offered a scientific slant on the matter, only my opinions. I also stated that it was obvious that the OP has connected with someone who is obviously knowledgeable about the medical side of this issue. It is also clear to me that you aren't a scientist or an expert in the medical field either.

Sometimes Mist, this site is a place to just be able to bitch and get a shoulder to lean on and a sypathetic ear. You seem unable to recognize that from time to time. You give great advice quite often but you also cut to the bone with scathing comments at times that are not always necessary.

Sometimes we need to realize that we are edgy and being short with others and check ourselves. I feel I've been nothing but respectful and would appreciate the same in return.

>
>
>Whether the father has passed the condition on to his other
>children by a different woman is none of the OP's business. Do
>you understand what divorce means?
>
>


That is true BUT the OP and the father have another healthy child together too.

>It does have a name and you have hit the nail right on the
>head.
>
>They want to see if it is denovo or if one of us is a carrier.
> If one of us is a carrier then our other child must be tested
>as well because then he may be a carrier.  They are also able

Sounds to me like you're not understanding what's going on. If it's recessive, then both parents are carriers. If it's dominant, they simply have to test you, not both of you (considering that it's quite rare, it's unlikely that you both have it). Furthermore, if one son has it, then the other son should be tested - no matter what the father's test results indicate.

So there's nothing in that description that indicates any benefit to the child.

>to tell if a certian piece or chunk is missing in certain
>regions what seems to be affected by these pieces missing...ie
>speech, walking, talking, kidneys, seizures etc.


OK, so you're talking about a chromosomal abnormality. That makes it even less important to test the father. If you want to know which genes are mislocated or missing, knowing the son's configuration is what matters - not the father's. Any benefit to the child will come from mapping HIS chromosomes, not the father's.

It looks again like they're trying to study the disease to determine more about how it is carried, as well as perhaps something about environmental triggers. The lab would like to have as many family members as possible to make a better study and possibly learn how the disease occurs, but that doesn't affect treaatment. I can't think of any similar examples where mapping the parent's genome would tell you anything about treatment for the child.

Oh, and btw, I have a PhD in chemistry with undergraduate minor in biochemistry.

>>
>>
>>Whether the father has passed the condition on to his other
>>children by a different woman is none of the OP's business.
>Do
>>you understand what divorce means?
>>
>>
>
>
>That is true BUT the OP and the father have another healthy
>child together too.

Yep. And no one's stopping her from having the healthy child tested.

If they test the father, it would only indicate the possibility that the other child is affected - and they'd still need to test the other child. But since they have one affected child, they already know that the other child is at risk.

Testing the father adds absolutely nothing.

I apologize.

However, you were making scientific statements that were erroneous. For example, you stated that testing the father would provide certain results - but there's no way that it could (as I explained in my other posts).

There's nothing wrong with complaining about the situation but when people are making erroneous judgements based on incorrect 'facts', then they need to be corrected. When they criticize me (also based on incorrect 'facts'), I will tell them so.

This is a matter of fact, not opinion. ANd your 'facts' were wrong.

why the hell didn't you tell me that in the first place??!!!  Instead of have a bitch match with you, I would of rather spoken to you about his chromosomal deletion.

The scientists want both parents because we do not know if it was denovo or if he is a carrier.  I have been cleared.  So know it comes down to does dad have a translocation or did this happen spontaneously?

BTW, I tried to take the high road here and I sent a very nice letter requesting him to come in and take the test again and I resent the original letter stating what this was for.

Guess who I got a call from today?  His WIFE informed me that he would not be taking the test because he works 24 hours and if I was willing to pay him 450.00 for missed work that he would submit to the test....and that he doesn't even see him so what's the point.

If ever I had pent up anger...its today.

>why the hell didn't you tell me that in the first place??!!!
>Instead of have a bitch match with you, I would of rather
>spoken to you about his chromosomal deletion.

Because you didn't mention that it was a chromosomal abnormality until today.

It might help for you to understand my bias. My ex is constantly trying to drag me into her problems and control every element of her life. I would do anything to benefit my daughter, but when she is constantly asking me to do things for her own purposes which are of absolutely no benefit to our daughter, I resist.

The same thing appears to be the case here. Perhaps the research group did not explain what they're trying to do well enough or perhaps there really is some science I'm not aware of, but to me it appears that you're trying to control your ex by making him give blood (either by pestering him until he gives in, laying a guilt trip on him, or suing him in court - even though you admit you won't win) - EVEN THOUGH THERE'S  NO APPARENT BENEFIT TO THE CHILD.

If there is a benefit to the child that I've missed, YOU ARE NOT THE ONE TO PRESENT IT TO THE FATHER. See below.

>
>The scientists want both parents because we do not know if it
>was denovo or if he is a carrier.  I have been cleared.  So
>know it comes down to does dad have a translocation or did
>this happen spontaneously?

Which will not have any impact on his treatment, AFAIK. What MIGHT determine your son's treatment is mapping of HIS DNA. Mapping the father's DNA might be a nice scientific exercise, but won't benefit your son (or, in theory, there's a remote possibility that they might learn something, but it's extremely unlikely - completely unprecedented, AFAIK).

>
>BTW, I tried to take the high road here and I sent a very nice
>letter requesting him to come in and take the test again and I
>resent the original letter stating what this was for.
>
>Guess who I got a call from today?  His WIFE informed me that
>he would not be taking the test because he works 24 hours and
>if I was willing to pay him 450.00 for missed work that he
>would submit to the test....and that he doesn't even see him
>so what's the point.

I already suggested that you get a third party involved. It's obvious that you don't get along with him or his wife and you're asking a big favor from him. You've already learned that he's not going to do it on your request (very possibly just to irritate you). You can choose to continue pounding your head against the wall or try getting a neutral third party involved as I suggested.

I have not indicated all the information on this board, due to relevance to my questions..and most people not understanding genetics...but it does specifically state that both parents are needed...  and since testing our son, the genetics lab has stated that both parents are needed for testing.

I'm not doing this to pester him, I would rather never speak to him as long as I live after what he has done to his kids.  I don't unless I absolutely have to and even then I don't get to. The last time I was on speaker phone was last November.  I am asking him because two different genetics labs requested it that's all.

Are you versed in any types or do you specialize in any specific
chromosome analysis?  We are dealing with a micro-deletion of the 4th.

If you know which syndrome this is...please do not post it in this forum for identity purposes, please PM me.  Thanks.

I know enough about it to know that you're not getting the whole story - or the whole story isn't being presented here.

Ask the clinician exactly why they need the father's DNA. In particular, how is the father's DNA going to change the treatment process for the son. Don't settle for vague answers. Unless the answer is very specific "if the father has guanidine-adenosine at base pair 128, then we'll be administering 10 mg of acetylcholine per kg of body weight, but if he has cytosine-tyrosine, then acetylcholine will not be useful", then there might be a case for testing the father. But I've never heard of that type of consideration EVER in treatment of any disease.

Far more likely would be "if the SON has guanidine-adenosine....". but you don't need the father for that.

I think you'll find that you get a wishy-washy answer like "we don't know enough about it to be able to treat it, but if we do enough studies, then eventually we might have a treatment". I would be very surprised if they can give you a detailed explantion of how the treatment will vary based on the father's chromosomes.

In reality, it's the son's chromosomes that will determine treatment. Put it this way: Half of the father's chromosomes are in the son and half are not.

The half that are NOT in the son are completely irrelevant to the son's treatment. The half that ARE in the son can be determined by testing the son. Even more importantly, the behavior of the father's DNA which is in the son will be affected by YOUR DNA, so the behavior of the father's DNA is irrelevant.

May I send you what they sent me?  Or better yet the study we would like to participate in?  This might be better than me trying to explain it covertly as to not give away our identity.  It will probably all make sense to you if I can show you what it is and what they want.

about 10 years ago he HAD submitted to a test for this but they couldn't tell us anything back then.  Is there a possibility they could use those results or they would have that sample on hand frozen in a lab somewhere?  I am grasping at straws here.

and another thing I can't wait to share... I believe everything happens for a reason, and with every bad situation comes something good...

I just found out today, about an hour ago actually, that my neighbor got a new job about a month and a half ago.  It never occured to me to ask where, I knew it was doing what she did before, but place of business, I never thought to ask.  I babysit for her and our kids run together quite a bit and are at my house almost everyday.  Our husbands play softball together as well.  Well we were chit chatting away and she mentioned where she worked and I lit right up.  Just so happens she works with my ex!!  Not only does she work with him... SHE IS HIS BOSS!!!!!!!!!

BUAHAHWHWHAHHAHAHAHAHAH!!   Karma is a bitch ain't it???

I thought maybe Notnew would like that one!!  :)

(relax misto, i will only use my powers for good, not evil)  ha ha!

Sure. I'd be happy to look at it. I will send you a pm with my email.

what was your suggested solution? or approach?

>what was your suggested solution? or approach?
>
>


First, the OP offered to send me the medical documents so I could see what's going on. I sent a PM with my email, but haven't heard back, so I'm not sure about the medical issues, but from what I've read here, it doesn't sound to me like the father's blood sample could possibly have any impact on the child's treatment.

It appears (again, I'm partly speculating since I don't have the docs) that the researchers want the father's DNA for a pure research study - to learn more about the disease in the HOPE that it might someday lead to a treatment, but it sounds like a very long shot.

As for the specific situation, I expressed my personal belief that they would not be able to get a court to order the father to come in for blood testing. My thoughts are that since there's no reason to believe that the father's DNA sample would have any impact on the child's current treatment process, then there's no medical emergency which would require the father to get tested. I further expressed the opinion that I'm not sure that they'd order the father to submit to blood tests even if there WAS a reason to believe that it would help to direct the treatment. My analogy was that if your sister had kidney failure, I do not believe the court would order you to give her a kidney -even if it would save her life.

Having said that, I do believe the father is being unreasonable, but there's usually a reason for that. It appears that (for whatever reason), he and his new wife can't stand the OP and he may be refusing to give the blood out of spite. Therefore, my suggestion was for the OP to stop asking (since he's going to refuse) and try a different approach - possibly asking a family friend, pastor, counselor, etc to talk with him to discuss how it might benefit the child and/or future children with the same disease at the expense of only a minor inconvenience to the father.

n/m

yes yes, I didn't forget about you.  I am looking for everything they have sent me on this thing and the exact study they are doing so you can give me your professional opinion as well.  

"...that the researchers want the father's DNA for a pure research study - to learn more about the disease in the HOPE that it might someday lead to a treatment"...

The study IS for exactly this and to make a complete analysis of this whole deal they need all the pieces..meaning me, dad and child.

In your post you said that he and his new wife can't stand me, and that is a very true statement, HOWEVER... I do not believe that he truly hates me and is doing what he is told by his wife to keep the peace.  for whatever reason she has taken over and I do not believe that the step parents have any right to create such havoc that I am not even now allowed to speak to my ex about our children.

I am a step parent and I would never do that to my husband, its none of my business what they work out.  Anyway whole other topic there...

I believe he is doing this out of total spite. I also think he doesn't want to know if he is a carrier.  He wants it be denovo, and not find out after all these years it was him.

There is so many more issues that go along with this man that I couldn't possibly explain them all except when our child was first hospitalized at 8 months old he told my mother, he didn't want a f'd up kid.  She kept that from me until we got divorced.  Nice dad huh?  So if I have to file something to get him to do it in HOPES there will be a cure, blackmail or not, he's a pile and I will do it.

There are lots of reasons that it is important to know the father's allele.  For one, it is important to know if this particular condition (which I think I read was a deletion) is a common hot spot for mutation.  It could also be caused by a trinucleotide repeat, uneven crossing over at meiosis I or even II or even mitosis.  To differentiate between the different uneven crossing over events, it would be necessary to know the father's genetic state AND the mother's.  

It could be a trinucleotide repeat with crossing over as well.  Without the father's DNA, it will be impossible to tell.  For instance, if the mother's allele does not show the deletion, it could be that the deletion occurred either during meiosis II or mitosis in the father, or it could have happened in the child.  Or it could be a hot-spot only in the DNA of the father, but not shook loose by uneven crossing over.

Either way, if it is not evident in the mother's DNA, and it's not in the father's DNA, it's a de novo mutation.  While not ideal, it certainly is important to the mother and father as far as other children are concerned and also to the siblings of THIS child, even half-siblings.  FISH examination of the mother, child AND father is the best way to sort all of these different possibilities out.

I doubt a judge will rule that the father has to undergo this procedure.  It is highly unlikely, in fact.  Since your friend is his boss, maybe she can keep an envelope he licked.  Does he smoke?  If so, he's likely to leave some saliva on his cigarette butt.

You're not a geneticist, are you?  You're misusing and confusing terms.  Really, unless you are a genetics, you really shouldn't be stating your opinions about something so important in such a forceful way.   It would make more sense to say you know something about this, and here's your guess, but stating it so forcefully without the knowledge, training, and experience to back it up is just plain unethical.

That clarifies things - and confirms what I expected. There's no way that his blood sample would have any impact on the child's treatment as far as I can tell. That makes it extremely unlikely that you'd ever get a court order.

You're free, of course, to do whatever you want, but since I doubt that you can force him (please see an attorney because I could be wrong and I'm not a lawyer), what good do you hope to do by filing? You won't win and you'll alienate him and his wife even more - making it even LESS likely that you'll ever get the blood sample.

Maybe he is the worst slimeball in the world. So? Do you think you're going to change him? Do you think that filing suit is going to magically make him wake up one morning and say "I've been a terrible father and I'm going to change"?

Are you more interested in hurting him or in helping your child? If the latter, filing a suit you probably can't win isn't going to help. Trying to find a third party to get involved might not help either, but it seems to me that there's at least some chance.

.

I just received it and sent a response.

Good luck.

do both.

I believe Sunshine's heart is in the right place and that this may help OTHERS -- if she does something legally, it's not just to pi$$ him off, it's to get cooperation.

>do both.
>
>I believe Sunshine's heart is in the right place and that this
>may help OTHERS -- if she does something legally, it's not
>just to pi$$ him off, it's to get cooperation.
>
>

I don't think you're thinking this through.

On what legal basis can you force someone to submit a blood sample for a research test? I can't think of a single legal principle to stand on here.

So she's going to file suit against him, cost him money defending himself, try to make him look bad in public, and she won't win, anyway.

Just how is that supposed to help obtain his cooperation?

BUT, I was up all night researching Motions to compel and I did find a few cases where people were court ordered to submit to blood work, psych evals, and there was one more I thought was weird but I can't remember right now.

I read your message, and you know and I know I can't FORCE him legally, and there really isn't anyone I can approach to intervene, we don't really have the same circle of friends anymore nor do I speak to his family members except for his father, who will not get in the middle of this.  If his mother were alive though, she would of rung his neck by now for how he is acting.

Anyway as I was saying, why can't I turn this into an argument that new genetic testing has became available ( truly has,was not around 10 years ago) and that the parents must re-submit to testing (as they did 10 years ago) and that it requires the participation of both parties (as it did 10 years ago) to find out what may be in store for our son and will greatly enhance his therapy portfolio.  He may be a candidate later for gene therapy.

As a result, our son was asked to participate in a research study for the genetic syndrome as a result of a happen chance meeting of two doctors who are world renound leading experts of this syndrome.

Misto- please stop looking for ways why he shouldn't, please help me reverse it and turn it into a positive.  This is was what I have been trying to do since my original post.

I need an argument to COMPEL him to want to do it.  Simply filing I believe will move his arse to do it, but if it goes to the big showdown I better be prepared to argue the positives to compel the judge to make him order it done...get it??  I know you would rather I use a neutral 3rd party for this, but truly there is not a soul that I know that could carry this out or I would do it.  I have had the dr's office attempt him 4 times and they don't want to call anymore.

So you see,  even if I lose, it was worth a try, and I will know I did everything I could.  

>BUT, I was up all night researching Motions to compel and I
>did find a few cases where people were court ordered to submit
>to blood work, psych evals, and there was one more I thought
>was weird but I can't remember right now.
>

As I explained earlier, the only way you can compel is to demonstrate that it is needed for the child's current medical treatment. You can't do that.

>Misto- please stop looking for ways why he shouldn't, please
>help me reverse it and turn it into a positive.  This is was
>what I have been trying to do since my original post.

Sorry, I'm not going to lead you to believe that it's likely when I don't think it is. There's a very distant outside chance that you might pull it off, but I just don't see it. But it's because of the outside chance that I suggested you see an attorney.

>
>I need an argument to COMPEL him to want to do it.  Simply
>filing I believe will move his arse to do it, but if it goes
>to the big showdown I better be prepared to argue the
>positives to compel the judge to make him order it done...get
>it??

Sure, I get it. You're trying to force him to do something that IMHO you have no right to force him to do - and I suspect that the judge will agree with me.

I don't have a magic wand.

I would send a letter addressed to both of them and state that you will not send another request but that you would really ask that they consider the positives(list them out for him) in him submitting to the blood testing and provide copies of all the information for the studies, the doctor's names and address and ask that they look into it. There are no games, no tricks up your sleeve, the blood sample is soley for this purpose and no other. Not only will he help your son together, but they may be able to prevent other children in the future from having to go through this same hardship your son is currently going though.

I would come from the nicey-nice angle rather than the you have to, you better, how dare you, if you don't I'll MAKE you approach. It's obvious they are being stubburn and hardheaded and it may be the approach, it may be the delivery, it may be they don't have all the information YOU have to make the decision to move forward.  Give them links to the sites you've been researching the syndrome, give them links to the message boards, etc. Powerhouse them with information and ask that they consider helping your son as well as other children out. Let them know how much you appreciate their cooperation and concern ....let them know it will be confidential(if it will be)....

Step into the shoes of someone that is ignorant of the benefits and stubburn about his beliefs. What informaion would you want to know before submitting numerous viles of your blood to dissect and probe into your DNA?

You'll most likely end up paying his attorney's fees if you take this to court, because a court can not force him to submit to bloodwork. Even if he did, he can remain in contempt and continue to refuse to give his blood.  

My thoughts exactly.

Remember that there are people in this country who still believe you can get AIDS from giving blood. Even for those who know better, it's still a significant imposition.

This is something I am going to try.  I am also going to try and set up the bloodwork to be able to be taken at a hospital closer to his home so the driving isn't a factor.

I am going to take away all of his excuses.  Even though it is going to just about kill me I am going to try one more attempt and play the nicey nice card...which I have been extremely coordial in my last two letters but it is just not sinking in.

But I swear if I get another voicemail from his wife I am going to come unglued.  I don't even say I have an ex husband anymore, I say ex wife because she does ALL the talking.  I just got another voicemail telling me they were moving...SHE says.."according to the decree I must inform you within 10 days"...  

"I MUST"????  When the hell did I become a lesbian??  Don't remember that!?  LOL  :)

>BUT, I was up all night researching Motions to compel and I
>did find a few cases where people were court ordered to submit
>to blood work, psych evals, and there was one more I thought
>was weird but I can't remember right now.
>

As I explained earlier, the only way you can compel is to demonstrate that it is needed for the child's current medical treatment. You can't do that.


That is not entirely true.  By getting this test we will be able to tell how this happened.  If it happened spontaneously at conception or if it is inherited.  We do not know for sure.

It will also be able to tell us exactly "how much" material of the chromosome he is missing.  Also something they were unable to tell us at first diagnosis.

They are linking that when so much of the material is missing things like heart and kidney failure become troublesome at age 20 or that bone development stops at age 16 etc..etc..

The study is only a bonus, but the test is to find out a little bit more about what our son's future might be. AND, when my doctor found out that we had never had this test, he immediately ordered it so HE could find out more about his genetic makeup.  He was going to order it whether I asked him to or not.

>>As I explained earlier, the only way you can compel is to
>>demonstrate that it is needed for the child's current medical
>>treatment. You can't do that.
>
>
>That is not entirely true.  By getting this test we will be
>able to tell how this happened.  If it happened spontaneously
>at conception or if it is inherited.  We do not know for
>sure.

None of which affects the child's treatment.

>
>It will also be able to tell us exactly "how much" material of
>the chromosome he is missing.  Also something they were unable
>to tell us at first diagnosis.

They will learn this from the child's DNA, not the father's.

>
>They are linking that when so much of the material is missing
>things like heart and kidney failure become troublesome at age
>20 or that bone development stops at age 16 etc..etc..

Then they test the child's DNA, not the father's.

>
>The study is only a bonus, but the test is to find out a
>little bit more about what our son's future might be. AND,

The father's DNA will tell you nothing about the child's future. You test the child's DNA for that.

The only thing the father's DNA will tell you is some academic stuff about transmission - which has no impact on the child's treatment.

And they can learn most of that by testing the father's sibs.

>when my doctor found out that we had never had this test, he
>immediately ordered it so HE could find out more about his
>genetic makeup.  He was going to order it whether I asked him
>to or not.

That's between him and his doctor. It still doesn't give you the right to demand the results.

Furthermore, the doctor can't order him to take the test, either.

>This is something I am going to try.  I am also going to try
>and set up the bloodwork to be able to be taken at a hospital
>closer to his home so the driving isn't a factor.
>
>I am going to take away all of his excuses.  Even though it is
>going to just about kill me I am going to try one more attempt
>and play the nicey nice card...which I have been extremely
>coordial in my last two letters but it is just not sinking
>in.
>
>But I swear if I get another voicemail from his wife I am
>going to come unglued.  I don't even say I have an ex husband
>anymore, I say ex wife because she does ALL the talking.  I
>just got another voicemail telling me they were moving...SHE
>says.."according to the decree I must inform you within 10
>days"...  
>
>"I MUST"????  When the hell did I become a lesbian??  Don't
>remember that!?  LOL  :)
>

You're asking the father to do something as a favor to you and your child that has no immediate benefit for anyone involved. Your attitude through this entire thread has been one of entitlement and demanding that he do something for you. You've threatened suing him, and even blackmail (by the normal dictionary definition).

You're not going to get what you want with the attitude - and are only going to make things worse. Some day, you're going to have to learn to live with the fact that he's remarried and he apparently doesn't choose to talk to you. Being a pain about things doesn't make it more likely for him to talk with you.

Are you serious?  I would like to see how you would react if your now ex wife put her new husband in charge.  I have NOTHING to say to his wife he met on the internet and married in 2 months of knowing her and put our kids in danger.

She tried to kill herself in front of our children and in a police report made by her husband has made 37 attempts in 2 months.  She is court ordered to stay away from our children and she calls me while he is at work.

I am fully aware that he is remarried and his children are suffering for it.  He has no problems ditching his children.  Like I said before, he went from being a stellar father to this piece of man that could give a rats behind about them.  THAT is what I don't understand.

Our relationship was fantastic after our divorce, we have a very needy child and had an amicable divorce.  He has spent dinners with us and we with his new wife and one day she just snapped.  He called here to tell us that he was sleeping at a rest stop so she couldn't find him and if I needed to get ahold of him to call his friend's house and he would call me back.

You have no idea how whacko this situation is.  He went back and that must of been the deal breaker, ditch your old family or you lose me and your new kid.

I don't get to speak to him, the letters, emails, and voicemails are all from her and are intercepted from me.  I even send them restricted and the last one the stupid post office let her sign for it!  I have no idea if HE is really making this decision on his own at all??

Our sons went from seeing their dad every week at a minimum of 48% of the time to nada, ziltch, zippo.  Our 11 year old can't even talk about him and our youngest thankfully has forgotten about going there.

I don't think I am entitled, but I sure do believe the kid he tossed in the garbage is entitled to EVERYTHING I can possible come up with to make his life better.

Your not making me feel bad about blackmailing, suing, demanding, or thinking I am entitled, thats your opinion and this is mine.  Nothing you posted was what I was looking for.  I even gave you personal, and real specifics and I still haven't seen your professional opinion on this at all.  You haven't helped me at all.  Your suggestion is to test his sibs.  I haven't spoken to his family in over 8 years, except his father and one sister.  What do you think they are going to say to me exactly when I call them up.  They don't even speak to him, why would they speak to me?  Not an option.

I was looking for arguments to present to make a case and since there is no more SOC, I have to post here.  You gave nothing but mean, nasty comments on how dare I black mail him.  How is that helpful exactly?  Everyone here is looking for advice in their favor.  I don't think I am completely wrong in wanting to pursue this legally even if I don't win... at least I tried.

99% of the NCP trying to pursue custody come here looking for advice in their favor to keep them from going insane and to keep up the fight to do what's right.  I am not some crazed parent who got lost on the internet by coming here! They are all pursuing an outcome in their favor. Is then everyone here blackmailing the other parent to get what they want?  Why are you attacking me for fighting for what is right?  This may just be a moral, do what's right situation why are you so against this?

I have received some great other options (what I was looking for in the first place because I am tapped out of fresh ideas) and I am just going to try them. Then when I get another call to F- off from his wife I am going to file whatever I can file to see if I can compel him that way.  You think I should walk away and do nothing and leave him alone.  Why is that?  You read the genetic study, the study specifically says both parents and our Dr. specifically said both parents, and the genetic labratory has asked for both parents. There has to be some reason all these damn doctors keep asking for both parents to be tested don't you think?

>I was looking for arguments to present to make a case and
>since there is no more SOC, I have to post here.  You gave
>nothing but mean, nasty comments on how dare I black mail him.
> How is that helpful exactly?  Everyone here is looking for
>advice in their favor.  I don't think I am completely wrong in
>wanting to pursue this legally even if I don't win... at least
>I tried.

You asked for advice and I gave it. My advice (echoed by others here) is that you have absolutely no legal grounds to force him to do what you want. If you consider advice that goes against your wishes as 'mean, nasty comments', then you have a lot of growing up to do.

You still haven't explained what legal grounds you have to force him to submit to a blood test which will have no bearing on your son's treatment or prognosis. As I've pointed out, without some legal grounds, you're wasting everyone's time - even your own.

To make matters worse, several people have offered suggestions that might get you what you want if you would just settle down and be a little less vindictive and nasty - and realize that you're asking him a favor. You completely ignored all of those suggestions in your intense rage.

You really need to get some counseling.

I'm done with this thread.