SPARC Forums

I feel like I am walking into a den of lions at the moment, but I need help looking at things from a different perspective.  I do not expect to get a lot of sympathy here for my opinions, and yes, I do anticipate the attacks, but here I am.  First things first, my kids are my life.  Right now, I have a young daughter and I do not want her father to be a part of her life.  I can logic this out but when it comes right down to it, I do not feel 100% comfortable with my decision.  That is why I am here.  This post be long as I present my side of things, but if you hang to the end, I'd like to get a dad's opinion on things as well.

I currently have three children.  Two boys who are in school, and a 6 month old daughter.  My boys are from a previous relationship and are being raised with zero father contact.  (Don't attack me on this one...deadbeat dad scene-not my decision.)  My daughter is the result of a 3 year relationship that ended about a year ago.  Her dad wants to be a part of her life but I do not want him to have any contact with her.  
I was never married to her father and we never lived together, although we talked about both.  He is financially responsible, holds a high-paying steady job, does not do drugs, drinks only socially, has nice vehicles, has no criminal record, etc.  Looks great on paper.

There was a lot of abuse.  NEVER physical abuse.  He never lifted a hand to me and I want to make that clear.  However, he was very emotionally abusive.  I realize most people might think that is pettybut never in my life have I been so hurt by a single person.  I walked into the relationship a strong, proud, independent individual.  Held my head up high and was ready to take on the world.  My mottos were "Failure is not an option" and "adapt and overcome".  I lived both well.  A little over two years later, I was extremely self-conscious, isolated from friends and family, afraid to look at people, walked on eggshells, lived in constant fear of upsetting him, hated the person I had become, felt worthless, and was suicidal.

I hate fighting and avoid conflict whenever possible.  Looking back I do not understand how things went so far and can only say it did not happen overnight.  The abusive acts would come and come and come until I could no longer take it yet as soon as I would turn to leave, he would pull me back, say the things I most needed to hear, promise to change, etc.  I was treated either like a princess or a crack whore.  Little in between.

In general, things like being publicly humiliated, called a bitch, a whore, a slut, and a hooker constantly despite repeated requests not to be, I was not allowed to associate with any of my friends, was severely scolded if I talked to classmates (even in class and about school work), was expected to maintain EXTREMELY strict obedience, was manipulated into dependence, was not allowed to go to certain places without permission, was not allowed to speak my opinion on certain matters but was forced to repeat his despite the fact that we both knew I felt differently, etc.  The list goes on and on.  Truly cruel and hateful acts.  If I could have simply behaved in a certain way and not upset him, I would have, but the things that upset him were so unpredictable that it was impossible.  One night I was screamed at for an hour and a half because I went to get a glass of water.  

As far as places I was not allowed to go...it wasn't just bars or anything like that.  One day I got out of class early and wanted to take my boys to the park.  I called to see if he would be done at work soon and wanted to go with us.  In the end, I gave up fighting and stayed home with the boys.  His argument...he was at work and not having fun therefore it was not fair for me to.  And since his daughter was with her mother and I wasn't taking her either, it wasn't fair for my boys to be able to go.  

Another time we were all at a play area and he began pulling his daughter away from me telling her not to talk to strangers and eventually told me it was because he didn't want her associating with someone dressed like a slut.  This was said right in front of my boys.  I was literally wearing a nice pair of jeans and a slightly baggy, long sleeved, mens (therefore not low cut) tee shirt that came down to about mid-thigh.  It was because my shirt was not tucked in.

To this day, the only explanation I have gotten was that I was "too perfect" and he was afraid of losing me, therefore pushed me away.  Yet this happened on a daily basis for years.

As far as I could tell, I was the only person he behaved this way to, never the kids.  However, he was wonderful at making promises and coming across as a great guy but rarely made good on them.  That did affect the kids.  I think he intended to keep them but as soon as something fun came along, he was off in that direction, sometimes with, but often without explanation to the person he had made the promise to.  This happened to the kids, both mine and his.  He was supposed to have weekends with his daughter, but one weekend said he was not going to get her because he had too much to do.  Yet he took my truck and returned six hours later with his golf clubs in the back (he had gone out all day to play).  Times when he would do this, he never bothered to call or tell her mom that he had a change in plans.  One night, he came over late and I told him I wanted to take my boys fishing in the morning.  He decided that he and his daughter should go as well and since it was the weekend showed up at her house just before midnight to pick her up (once again, no call that day).  When her grandmother protested that she was sleeping and just getting over a cold and it wasn't wise to drag her out in the night, he took her anyway.  He arrived back at my house griping about how it was Saturday and his time...how dare they try to deny him rights to HIS daughter.  Yet she seemed to be his daughter when he cared to think about her and a thing to be forgotten when it wasn't convenient.

He had volunteered to help my son with his science fair project (a HUGE part of their grade).  Said it would be a good chance for them to bond.  Yet after being reminded repeatedly for two months, the due date was approaching and still no project.  Yet he always had something more important.  I knew better than to try to do one with my son as I would be "robbing them of their bonding time" and "trying to make him look bad in front of my son".  Finally at 6PM the night before it was due, I dropped my son off with my dad and asked him to help.  Things like this were constant.

As far as co-parenting, I saw him repeatedly do things that worked against his daughter's mother.  Little things, like the time she was three and he was so proud of himself for teaching her to say "James is stupid" when asked what we thought of her mom's boyfriend.  When she was five, he took her out and had her ears pierced despite her mom saying she really didn't want them pierced until she was older.  Little things, but not cool.

So, now I am over and done with the relationship.  He does have some wonderful qualities and I am sure that he will make the right woman very happy.  I just wasn't that woman.  I was hurt deeply and now am faced with having to trust a hideous monster with the most innocent and precious being in my life.  One that seems to hold that women are meant to be subservient and obey strictly.  One that makes and breaks promises, uses children as pawns, and selfishly thinks of himself first and others only when it is convenient.  That is NOT the kind of role model I want for my daughter.  It pains me to be around him, opens old wounds and I need the time and space to heal.

We spent the second half of my pregnancy without contact and it was only after she was born that I called to tell him.  I had severe reservations about it but felt obligated to do so.  He saw her about every 2-3 weeks for about an hour at a time until she was 4 months (so maybe 8 times total).  At that point, he began with some of his old head games and I kind of lost it.  I was so scared and upset and it ripped any bit of healing I had done wide open.  Why now, after all this time was he still trying to control and manipulate me?  Why did he feel it necessary?  What was he trying to do?  What did he have to gain?  I freaked.  I told him that I didn't think it was wise and I couldn't handle the contact with him.  He asked what about seeing the baby.  I told him I couldn't handle it.  He asked what about doing what was best for her.  I told him that I did feel this was best for her.  I got in my truck and drove off.

Knowing what I did of him, I honestly expected there to be an email or message by the time I got home, but there was nothing.  I have made no attempt to contact over the past 2 months and to the best of my knowledge, neither has he.

I am now two years off from completing my degree.  It has been no secret that I have been planning on leaving the state for years.  I tried to do so before, but felt it would be wise to finish school first.  Poverty is a major issue and our city was ranked as one of the top 12 for violent crimes.  My state's schools consistently rank either 49th or 50th in the nation.  Jobs pay far less than the national average.  Unemployment is high and all around, it is not a good place to live or to raise kids.  I have family in Iowa where some of the best schools are.  I had planned on moving either there and raising my kids where they could thrive.  Yet when I move, my daughter will only be two or three.  If he has partial custody of her, would that mean sending her out for summers?  I can't believe that would be good for such a young child to be ripped away from Mom and sent to a stranger (after so long with no contact, it would be as good as a stranger to such a young one) for months at a time.  I can't imagine being away from my kids for so long and the thought of him having my precious little one for that long terrifies me.  What kind of damage can be done in that amount of time?

Yet part of me argues that all that happened was between he and I.  He has never hurt her and to dictate her life based on my emotions is not completely right either.  If he hurt her, then I would have right to step in and keep him away, but until then, do I have the right?  The mother in me counters this with the fact that you do not let your child play with a gun hoping that it is not loaded and if it does go off and proves to be loaded, then you can take it away.

Is it fair to tear her between two lives, two families, two states?  If not, then what is the purpose of allowing either one of them to bond now, only to have to suffer a loss when I move?  He couldn't possibly have much attachment to her yet.  He wasn't there during the pregnancy or birth.  He has only seen her a handful of times.  I haven't allowed him to pay anything for her although to his credit, he has offered.  Does a bit of shared genetic material really make for an obligation to let him be part of her life?

I still can't imagine being away from my children for weeks or even months at a time.  It's inconceivable.  Yet if we shared custody and lived in different states, I don't see how we'd avoid that.  My only other option would be to remain in the state and to do that would mean to subject all three of my children to a life of poor schools, high crime, and financial insecurity.  Is that really in their best interests either?

But what of his rights?  He claims that he wants to know her.  Doesn't he have the right to?  Yet how can I put his wants above what I feel is best for her?  And while he has done exactly what I asked of him, no contact...I still find that a bit unsettling.  That he could walk away so easily with so little argument...no phone calls or even an email.  Nothing.  (Then again, he may have decided to skip negotiations and has spent the last two months mounting a legal offense because he is so committed.)

My gut reaction is to leave well enough alone, don't stir things up.  Put my head down, finish my degree, and get my kids out of the state.  I have a wonderful support system and extended family in Iowa and the kids will have plenty of loving male role models there.  Just walk away now before anyone gets hurt.

Yet something still does not sit quite well.  Do I really have the RIGHT to make that kind of call for all involved?

If you are questioning it, you already know the answers.



My granddad once told me; Boy, often times, the most morally right thing to do, is that which you most dont want to.

>I feel like I am walking into a den of lions at the moment,
>but I need help looking at things from a different
>perspective.

Welcome. You'll find that most people here are fair, reasonable people who want what's best for their children. And you aren't quite in the lion's den that you might think- more than half the people here are women. :)

> I do not expect to get a lot of sympathy here
>for my opinions, and yes, I do anticipate the attacks, but
>here I am.  

For the most part, the only times I've seen people attacked here are when they put themselves before their kids, or when they decide the other parent has no place or value in the children's lives. Rarely is that view truly justified.

Emotional abuse is often a two-way street, but not always. I will say that rarely is one party an angel and the other a devil; it usually takes two to tango. Yes, there are spouses from hell, but more often than not there's enough blame to go around so that everyone gets a plateful. ;)

Regardless, your feelings for each other shouldn't interfere with the children's relationship with the other parent. That's easier said than done, unfortunately, because we're all human.


>Yet something still does not sit quite well.  Do I really have
>the RIGHT to make that kind of call for all involved?

You have a responsibility to 3 parties: you, your child, and your child's other parent. As a CP, it's incumbent upon you to be the flexible one since you have most of the control over the situation. Treat the other parent as you would want to be treated and you'll never have to question if you did the right thing or if you were fair about something.

Hmmm, this sounds familiar.

You and I have some parallels, not exactly the same, but I'll let you know my story (while trying to keep it short).

My ex was very controlling also, pulled many of the same things yours did, and then some.  There was some physical abuse on his part, but nothing major (nothing that needed medical attention).

I found out shortly after our son's birth that Ex has bi-polar disorder with psychotic overtones (which basically means he has schizophrenic tendencies on top of the bi-polar).  Now, in no way am I saying that your ex has this, I am just letting you know my story.

I struggled for a long time about letting ex have a part in ds's life.  It was extremely difficult.  On the one hand, I wanted him completely out of our lives forever, and was getting a lot of feedback from family to do so.  And since his medical records could have been PROOF of his behavior, I had a pretty fair shot of shutting him out.

BUT, I got to thinking of all of my friends I had while growing up who didn't know their Dads.  These kids were constantly pissed off and in trouble.  Pissed off with their Mom's for not letting them know their Dad's, or pissed off that their Dad's left (and sometimes BOTH).

I had visions of ds turning on me at age 14, 15, 16, saying "Where's my Dad, I want to know my Dad, Why did you keep him away from me?"  This I did not want.

So, DS sees his Dad once a month, or more, for a weekend, sometimes for longer periods.  In the beginning it was once every three months, for a week, but that is because Ex moved out of state before son was six months old, and we couldn't afford plane tickets more than that.  Once DS and I moved closer, the visitation became more frequent.

Yup, I can't stand my ex.  He still plays head games with me, and sometimes plays them with son, but the games he plays with son are designed to hurt ME most of the time, not DS.

But you know what?  DS loves his Daddy, the connection has always been there.  Even when he was an infant.  Babies KNOW who their parent's are.

DS is now nearly six and he and his Dad have a good relationship.

So, here's my advice to you.

Let your ex spend time with your daughter.  Make up a parenting plan that you feel comfortable with for now, moving up to more time as your daughter grows.

If you move out of state, know that your daughter will be gone from you for extended periods, just as she will be away from him.

I make less now than I did where DS and I lived his first three years, but he gets to see his Dad more (and extended family) which is important to me.  It's easier on son to see his Dad more frequently too.  The transition is much easier.

And a heads-up, to get away from the problem of him showing up at midnight for her as he has done with his other daughter, be very specific in the parenting plan.  Pick-up, drop-off times, if he is more than an hour late, he forfeits the visitation.  Think of Holidays...

Good luck.:)

You could almost be telling my story.........

DS was born in CA over 15 years ago.  His dad was still legally married at the time, so he had an instant SM when he was born.  Things had periodically been rocky prior to his birth, but went downhill fast after that.  His dad was an alcoholic, but a charmer as well.  No one knew of the emotional and verbal abuse that man put me thru.

I was born and raised in Iowa, smack in the middle of Amish country, a true Iowa farmer's daughter.  During our custody dispute, he went so far as to make the allegation that there were SEVERE problems in my family when I was young and my parents sent me to live with Amish neighbors.  If anyone knows anything about the Amish faith, they would know that this is an outright lie, they would never do such a thing.  This is just the tip of the iceberg, as he also called me a whore, saying I was selling myself out of a local bar.  He reported me for abuse 4 times, 3 out in CA, where I was literally put on 'probation' for 6 months and had to report to a social worker every month.  He did everything he could to protray me as an unfit mother.

I also knew that there was NO way I could ever afford to live out there, even with guideline child support.  And it scared me to death to think of DS going to school out there, knowing how good the schools are in Iowa.  We did get back together and I convinced his dad to move to Iowa in 1993.  We got here in March, and at the beginning of August, one day while I was at work (he never did get a job here, even with 2 degrees), he took off with DS back to CA.  For 4 days I had NO clue where DS was.  Many aspects of that time I have no recollection of, it was so traumatic.  

It took me 6 weeks, 3 trips to CA, 3 court appearances, and 1 emergency mediation to get DS back here.  Basically his dad screwed himself with the court by that action. One year later, we solidified a perm. custody order.  By then, DS was 5.

But when we moved back here to Iowa, it was the first time I had come back without my father being here, he had died in 1991.  I still worship the ground he walked on.  I ended up going thru the grieving process all over again.  And I also came to realize just how precious a father is to a child's life.  I may have hated DS's dad for what he did to me, but it was obvious that DS loved him dearly, as it should be.  Far be it for me to come between that.

Per CO, DS flew out to CA every summer and EO Christmas.  The summer visitation started at 4 weeks and graduated every two weeks until it was one week after school was out to one week before school started.  ALL SUMMER, EVERY YEAR.  I will not deny that I missed him HORRIBLY.  I would stand there in the terminal, watch his plane take off, and bawl my head off.  But the phone calls kept us in touch and I could hear in the sound of DS's voice that this was the right thing to do.  And we always had a game we played when he'd fly home, him making me a bowling pin as he barreled into me when he got off the plane!

Over the years, I guess time and distance, things changed between his dad and I.  I kept him notified on EVERYTHING, encouraged him to contact DS's teachers, and talked to him frequently.  When DS was diagnosed with ADHD 8 years ago, he was informed every step of the way and it was a JOINT decision between the two of us as to how we would deal with it.  I got to relying on his feedback.  But the real shocker was the day he called and during the course of the conversation, he actually came out and told me he thought I was doing a great job as a mother!  Talk about doing a 180!  After that, our relationship was even more cordial that it had been getting.

But 2 years ago, EVERYTHING changed.  DS was scheduled to fly out for the summer, but his dad was having some problems and thought he'd be having his gall bladder out shortly after DS would arrive.  Didn't turn out that way.  On June 28, he was diagnosed with bile duct cancer of the liver, and on July 23 he passed away, while DS was there.   I dropped everything, scrambled to get the funds and work out logistics, and flew out there to be with DS.  It was devastating to everyone, but moreso to DS.

A few months later, I asked DS what it would have been like if his dad would have died while he was with me and he said 'Oh Mom, it would have been HORRIBLE!'  He will never forget that he got to say goodbye to his dad.  Then I asked him if he ever had to do it all over again, would he want to stay here, to play ball, go camping, and all the other fun things that his friends were doing over they summer, or go to his dad's, and he said 'No question, Mom, I'd go to Dad's'.  I think that says it all.

DS never got to play T-Ball or Little League, never got to go to Scout camp, never got regular swim lessons, never got to do a LOT of things many kids do over the summer.  For 10 years, I never spent my birthday, 4th of July, or spend time with my son during the summer.  But NONE of that matters anymore.  My son no longer has a father he can see or be with.  That's all that matters.

Plus DS is lucky to have a SM whom he still adores and it would make me proud if he wanted to call her Mom.  He couldn't say 'Step-mama' when he started talking, so it came out 'Epmama', and that's what he still calls her!  He didn't go out to see her, or his half sister and other relatives, this summer because of summer school, but he WILL be going out next year.  I won't let him forget his father's family and have every intention of inviting them all to his HS graduation in 3 years.  I hope to honor his SM by having her sit with us in the parents section during the ceremony.  She deserves it.  And in my mind, she IS just as much a parent to DS as I am.

Now, I know that everyone's situation is different.  But I ask you to take a look at your own relationship with your father.  If it was good, don't you want that for your children?  And if it wasn't, don't you want them to have what you didn't?  Yes, she's very young right now, and they may not have much of a bond, but that takes TIME, it's not something that happens instantly.  Because of the age of the child, she won't be able to fly by herself until she's 5 anyway, so you will need to make some kind of arrangements for LD visitation until then.  

And yes, she CAN fly by herself.  There's thousands of kids who do it every year.  And the airlines are great at taking care of them, thru their UAM (Unaccompanied Minor) programs.  It costs a little more, but it's worth it.  It is mandatory to the age of 12 and is optional after that.  Children from 5 to 8 must fly non-stop, but after that they can have one plane change.

It doesn't change the fact that you will miss her horribly.  But how will they ever be able to have any kind of bond if you don't do whatever you can to foster it?  I saw firsthand how DS's dad charmed and weaseled people, including me.  DS learned himself on a MUCH smaller scale, but that was for HIM to learn from his own experience, NOT mine projected on him.  But now DS has a deep love for his father and many great memories to remember.  I even let them take a trip to Winnepeg, MB about 5 years ago, so DS could see where his dad grew up and meet some relative he'd never seen before.  It scared me to death to agree to the trip.  But I also realized that they may never get another chance to do that, and family is VERY important to me.  Little did I know how prophetic my thinking would be.

I know it's very hard, but your daughter is starting out with a clean slate with her father.  It was one of the hardest things I had ever done to put MY feelings about him aside for the sake of our son.  Note that I said 'our', not 'my'.  I have never thought of him as 'my' son, because he wasn't brought into this world by immaculate conception, he is equally of his father, hence he is not mine alone.

I had NO familial support in CA, another reason why I wanted to move back here.  Even DS's dad told me at one point that, in regards to the environment he was growing up in, the education he was getting here, and the additional academic help with his ADHD, this was the best place for DS to be.  I can understand your desire to return to Iowa.  All I'm saying is, regardless of the relationship you had with her father, your daughter deserves to get to know and love her father.  Everything and anything you can do to make that happen can only be good for her.  It is up to her and her father as to where their relationship will lead.  

Even DS knows that his dad wasn't a saint, just as he knows I'm not one either, LOL!  But I have NO doubt that he loves each of us fiercely, just as much as I love my father.  Your daughter is half of her father, please don't deny her that.  Make the sacrifices you have to for her sake.  Parenting is nothing but sacrifice, just in varying degrees.  Of all the trips I had to make to Chicago O'Hare (1000 miles every time he went to CA), the days missed from work because bad weather delayed a flight, taking DS out of school a day early for Christmas so that his dad could get a better priced fare, and all the other 'problems' that arose..........I'd do it again in a heartbeat, if it meant DS could have his Daddy in his life.

More than once, I had many people ask me 'How can you put your child on a plane to fly so far for so long?'  And I asked them in return 'Since he's with his father, how can I NOT???'

There are three sides to every relationship disagreement
   1.His side
   2.Her side
   3.The truth

Children love both parents unconditionally.  Children need both parents.  You will be hurting your child if she is not given a chance to develop a relationship with her father.

I totally understand about being with a controlling man. When I was younger (to young) I was engaged to a man who would not allow me to talk to my friends, family and when I got home from work  he questions which men I talked to. Luckily I didn't stay in that relationship long, as soon as I could get out I did.

That being said, even though he may be this way towards you, he may not be this way towards your child.

If/when you two have a court ordered parenting plan, specify in the order that pick up time is at xx and the receiving parent will wait no longer than 30 minutes, if that parent fails to show (without making prior agrangements agreed upon by both parties) then visited is considered forfitted at during this weekend (something like that)

Each child deserves to see both parents.  Should you ex choose not to exercise his visitation that is his loss, if he fails to exercise it for a long period of time, then request supervised visits until the child and father reunite.

Since you were not married at the time of birth, the father must go to court to get his vistation rights.

Good luck, and always remember do what is right for the child, many of us can't stand our ex's however we chose them not our children.

There are many deadbeat parents out there believe me, my ex is one of them, he made the choice not to see our son or pay child support, now he wonders why our son will not call him, hmmm.

Now my dh on the other hand is a wonderful father to his children and my son.




**These are my opinions, they are not legal advice**

>If you are questioning it, you already know the answers.


I wish I could share your conviction, but unfortunately, I can't see life in such black and white.  Not all situations can result in win/win and so long as that is the case, no solution will ever be 100% right.  Your comment did at least bring me to that realization and if nothing else, I am now more comfortable living with it if that is what I choose to do.  He has said that he wants to see her and I have always been the type of person who tries at all costs to make others happy.  I have never disregarded the thoughts of others easily.  All things considered, I don't believe that the situation would be a positive one for a young child.  Yet as  much as I detest him, I still care about him and his feelings as odd as that may sound.  I think my unrest is because it does not sit well that I am not honoring his "rights".  However, to put his wants above what is best for her would be negligent in my responsibilities as a mother.  So while it may not feel 100% right, this may eventually come to picking the lesser of evils.

>Emotional abuse is often a two-way street, but not always. I
>will say that rarely is one party an angel and the other a
>devil; it usually takes two to tango. Yes, there are spouses
>from hell, but more often than not there's enough blame to go
>around so that everyone gets a plateful. ;)

I do realize that I hold a biased view, but I was raised by Norwegian corn farmers...very quiet, passive people.  I tend to play peace-keeper and deal with things rather than object and enter into conflict.  As such, yes, I did ALLOW many of these things to happen by tolerating them and not stopping them immediately, but I can HONESTLY not remember ever lashing out (either directly or passively) for at least the first 2+ years.  The last three months we were together, I did say things that I now regret, but that was the final straw that caused me to leave for good.  It was when I saw that I was becoming a witch that I realized I had allowed myself to change and I was becoming a person I was not and could not be proud of.

>Regardless, your feelings for each other shouldn't interfere
>with the children's relationship with the other parent. That's
>easier said than done, unfortunately, because we're all human.

Far too true.  Which is why I am here...to try to gain perspectives from a father's side of things.  Single parent boards got me nowhere, as the vast majority of them were mothers who told me what scum men were and that kids were fine without dads.  

Emotions aside...parents aside....  Just considering the physical situation, I do not see how being split between two states and lives can be healthy for such a young child.  Maybe an older one, but not so young.  As I said, I never saw him act abusively to anyone other than me so I'm not convinced that it would carry over onto her.  However, the values that he carries are what scare me.  His views on gender roles, materialism, etc. are things I would never care to have passed along to any child, let alone mine.  Combine that with the inconsistancy and broken promises (which repeatedly affected the kids)....  I wish that I could see good coming from a potential relationship, but I'm having trouble with that.

If they currently had a relationship, there might be reason to keep him involved.  I wouldn't want to tear her away (hurting her) to prevent her from getting hurt.  Makes no sense.  But at this time she has no attachment.  Just a bit of shared genetic material.  I cannot justify placing her into a situation that I see as being harmful with a person I see as being maybe/maybe not harmful just because he wants that.  If the day came that she wanted to know him, I would never deny her that, but right now she is innocent and it is my job to protect her.  I know that she is well loved within my family.  She will have all of her social, emotional, material, etc. needs met.  Why introduce a potentially unstable situation/element into the picture...because he wants?  Because they share genes?  I am having a lot of trouble with that concept.  I promise I'm not intentionally being argumentative, I'm just trying to understand the other side and from where I am, it is difficult to see.

>BUT, I got to thinking of all of my friends I had while
>growing up who didn't know their Dads.  These kids were
>constantly pissed off and in trouble.  Pissed off with their
>Mom's for not letting them know their Dad's, or pissed off
>that their Dad's left (and sometimes BOTH).

My best friend of 16 years was raised not knowing her father.  In fact, she was raised by a man who she was always told was her dad.  Her real father died when she was 13 and she wasn't told until she was 17 that he even existed.  At that point, she was shaken that what she had always believed was not a reality, but she has always said that she will always consider her dad (the one that raised her) to be her dad.  She says she wishes she could have met her other dad, but does not regret the decisions that her parents made.  Just wishes she had known the truth sooner.

>I had visions of ds turning on me at age 14, 15, 16, saying
>"Where's my Dad, I want to know my Dad, Why did you keep him
>away from me?"  This I did not want.

I think if this day ever came, I would not deny her that.  It would be her choice and she would be old enough to understand things more fully and old enough to be able to handle trips across the country and time away from her family better.  It is subjecting her at this age to that that causes me concern.

>But you know what?  DS loves his Daddy, the connection has
>always been there.  Even when he was an infant.  Babies KNOW
>who their parent's are.

I believe they know who their caregivers are...be they biological or adoptive...but do you mean they know who they have biological ties to and who they do not?

>If you move out of state, know that your daughter will be gone
>from you for extended periods, just as she will be away from
>him.

While it can be done, is this HEALTHY for a young child?  Right now she has no attachment to him.  To begin a relationship would be to introduce her to a life of constantly being away from at least one parent or the other.  This is what I am not convinced is wise.

>And a heads-up, to get away from the problem of him showing up
>at midnight for her as he has done with his other daughter, be
>very specific in the parenting plan.  Pick-up, drop-off times,
>if he is more than an hour late, he forfeits the visitation.
>Think of Holidays...

This I believe to be a wise decision if we decide to venture down that road.  Keeping it all clear and set makes for a predictable understanding and arrangment for all.

Good or bad, it's not because HE wants it, it's because SHE needs it.  BIG difference.

And to quote Dori on 'Finding Nemo', 'You can't protect them from everything.'  And she does not have 'just a bit of shared genetic material', she is HALF him and HALF you.  Because they DO 'share genes', it is vital that they be allowed to develop a relationship.  Like I said in my other post, you cannot dictate how they develop it, it is for them to decide.

As scary as it may seem, you cannot try to protect her from what you 'might think' would happen.  Worse things happen in family courts every day, what with drug-addicted mothers maintaining custody with the court's blessings.  Now, THAT'S putting a child in obvious harm's way, but the courts won't go for presumptions.

As bad as this may sound (and believe me, I dealt with this way too long), if he asked for visitation, you will have to put her in what YOU perceive to be harm's way.  And pray like hell that nothing happens.  

I found out a LONG time ago that my 'protection' of my child is really very limited.  I cannot completely control every aspect of my child's life, even his safety, and I shouldn't be allowed to, either.  If I did, I'd end up with a wimpy, scared, paranoid adult child, afraid of his own shadow and incapable of doing anything on his own.

My mom told me a LONG time ago that the hardest part of parenting for my fahter was to let us kids go out and make mistakes.  He was VERY protective of us kids.  And me being the baby and Daddy's girl didn't help much!  It all started when I was 3 and wandered away from the house....in the middle of August when the corn was 6 feet tall.  Dad called the neighbors and they were just getting ready to walk the fields when I popped up out of the oat patch.  Dad wanted to ban me to the house, but I pitched a major fit and he realized that he couldn't sit on me forever, he had to let me find my own way, even if he thought something 'might' happen to me.

Youd child is still an infant.  I do not recommend any long term cisitations, maybe a week at a time.  Graduate it over the course of the next few years, adding a week or so every year.  There are MANY ways you can set up a parenting plan, even for infants and long distance.

As hard as it may sound, you need to displace your own feelings about him in order to develop a plan of vistation.  Start SLOW and graduated.  Start with supervised if you need to, but you better have solid reasons (proof) as to why you feel it's needed.  Sit down and work out a plan for the next 18 years, taking into consideration different ages of your child and different stages of life.  Put in contingency plans if he fails to hold up his end of the agreement.  Put in all the safe-guards you feel is needed.  But do it for your daughter's sake.  Because SHE will be coming to you later in life asking the hard questions and YOU are the one who has to look yourself in the mirror and answer her.  Think about that.

'>If you move out of state, know that your daughter will be
gone
>from you for extended periods, just as she will be away
from
>him.

While it can be done, is this HEALTHY for a young child?
Right now she has no attachment to him.  To begin a
relationship would be to introduce her to a life of
constantly being away from at least one parent or the other.
This is what I am not convinced is wise.'

We're not talking about her flying back and forth between you and him at this age, that's absurd!  But is it EVER healthy for a child to be separated for EITHER parent for any length of time?  NO.  This is atime ot get creative and come up with a plan that will suit her needs as an infant now, plus expand and grow with her as she grows.

Heck no, he has no attachment to her, but then he hasn't had a chance to, either.  And I'm not pointing fingers at you, that's just the way it is.  I didn't have an attachment to my own son until after he was born, but because his dad and I lived together, he was able to build JUST as strong a bond with DS as I did.

Bottom line:  they both have to have the opportunity to build their relationship, no matter how much you like or dislike him.  Not after she becomes an adult or when she's old enough to understand, or even when she's old enough to fly, NOW.  Because if not now, the rest doesn't mean shit.   It can be done, with a lot of creativity, compassion, coordination, and compromise.  It will only work as well as the people giving to it.  This is your child's LIFE we're talking about..........

>A few months later, I asked DS what it would have been like if
>his dad would have died while he was with me and he said 'Oh
>Mom, it would have been HORRIBLE!'  He will never forget that
>he got to say goodbye to his dad.  Then I asked him if he ever
>had to do it all over again, would he want to stay here, to
>play ball, go camping, and all the other fun things that his
>friends were doing over they summer, or go to his dad's, and
>he said 'No question, Mom, I'd go to Dad's'.  I think that
>says it all.

Thank you for sharing your story.  It does give me hope that if this is what needs to be done there is a chance at things working out eventually.  I must admit that there are many similarities between our situations and I just read ahead a bit (I've been trying to answer these in order and I'm still behind a bit!).  I too got lost in a corn field when I was three!!!  No Amish communities, however!

Anyway, as was something I pointed out in some of the other posts, they have no attachment so far.  They simply haven't had the exposure so far.  She is just now at an age where she is beginning to show preferences for certain people and form her own attachments.  Your son was 5 by the time separation was much of a concern.  By then he had formed a relationship with your ex.  

When I was 12, I bonded very strongly to an elderly woman who lived a few houses away.  I took her on as a grandmother type and used to visit everyday for hours.  We'd sit and talk endlessly.  Eventually she passed away, but to this day, I consider her a very special part of my life and I am thankful that we were able to spend the time together that we did.  My point being that your son could have just as easily bonded with a person down the block and grown just as attached to that person and once gone, been just as thankful for the time spent together as he was for the time spent with his father.  Why do I need to send my daughter across the country and disrupt her summers and home life for this kind of relationship?  If it was to continue a relationship, I could justify it, but to start one?  She could just as easily do so with the family and friends in our area.

>And in my mind, she IS just as much a parent to DS as I am.

Point in case, it isn't genetic ties that make family.  

>Now, I know that everyone's situation is different.  But I ask
>you to take a look at your own relationship with your father.
>If it was good, don't you want that for your children?  And if
>it wasn't, don't you want them to have what you didn't?  Yes,
>she's very young right now, and they may not have much of a
>bond, but that takes TIME, it's not something that happens
>instantly.  Because of the age of the child, she won't be able
>to fly by herself until she's 5 anyway, so you will need to
>make some kind of arrangements for LD visitation until then.
>All I'm saying
>is, regardless of the relationship you had with her father,
>your daughter deserves to get to know and love her father.
>Everything and anything you can do to make that happen can
>only be good for her.  It is up to her and her father as to
>where their relationship will lead.  

>Even DS knows that his dad wasn't a saint, just as he knows
>I'm not one either, LOL!  But I have NO doubt that he loves
>each of us fiercely, just as much as I love my father.  Your
>daughter is half of her father, please don't deny her that.

Say you adopted a child and you and your family happily raised this child as your own for three years.  I can't imagine that that bond would be any stronger if the child was biologically linked to you.  Yet after three years, you received a phone call from a man.  He just learned that his girlfriend was pregnant and gave the baby up for adoption.  He now wants to know this child and would like to share custody with you and in fact is willing to pay for the plane ticket if you would be so kind as to send the child out to spend a month or two with him each summer.  How do you react to this?

If your husband has issues with fertility and you end up using a sperm donor...do you owe it to your child to share custody with the donor so that your child can build a relationship with the other half of the gene pool?

My point is that right now, the ONLY thing they share is genes.  There are far too many adopted individuals in my family for me to believe that genes are an ultimate connection between two people.  But are genes, as the sole reason, sufficient cause to seperate family members, deprive a child of the normal kid summers that you described, and cause the heartache of seperation from one parent or the other?  Yes, your son would have given up his summers and done it all over again, but what if you ex lived down the block or across town.  Wouldn't that have been preferable?  Best of both worlds.  Right now I have a choice as to who she bonds with.  Why set her on a road to a life torn between families and homes and constantly missing one parent or the other?  Genes?

As proof that genes are not the ultimate connection, ask your son if he was to find out today that the man he spent his summers with was not actually his biological father, would he have regretted knowing the man, knowing "Epmama", knowing the kids?  I'm betting he still wouldn't want to have changed things.  If you were to find out today that there had been a mixup at the hospital and your son is not really your son, would you love him any less or regret having raised him?  So if it is the relationship that matters and not so much the genes, why can a child starting with a clean slate, not form an attachment with a person under more desirable conditions?

>There are three sides to every relationship disagreement
>   1.His side
>   2.Her side
>   3.The truth
>
>Children love both parents unconditionally.  Children need
>both parents.  You will be hurting your child if she is not
>given a chance to develop a relationship with her father.
>

This seems to be a popular opinion, but I'm searching for the reasons behind the logic.  WHY?  Will I also be hurting her if I do not let her build a relationship with my second cousin and my grandmother's siblings, the couple down the block, the old man from the church, the lady behind the counter at the grocery store....  The ONLY thing her father has over these others is genes.  And being that genes are their only tie, is that a strong enough reason to disrupt her childhood, tear her between two homes, and deprive her of a normal childhood?

I can relate to your post, however, I was married to a guy like yours, to the T. (Perhaps they are related?) Anyway, I left the relationship and my son was very young...however, even though he was a jerk to me...he is a great dad. He dotes on his son, works with me regarding punishments and other things, and since our divorce 13 years ago...we are actually "friends".  I too believed my ex would be great for "someone", but it sure wasn't me.  We just brought out the absolute worst in each other, and after our break up, he realized many of his mistakes, and although it was too late for us...he has changed some, and his new wife of 6 years has to do her best to keep him in line...but bottom line...HE IS A GREAT DAD...  Although he is still a crappy husband, he loves his son...

I do believe you should finish your degree, move to a new state, and just take whatever visitation that is set.  It is just part of being a parent that is not married to the child's other parent.  Whether married or not, that is the way it is.  Is it hard, yes.  In the long run, is it worth it, yes.  

Bless you for asking and seeking opinions.  You do what is in your heart.  Listen and read, and figure out what is best for you and your kids.  Always remember, she is someone elses kid too.  My best wishes, nosonew.

...you have already made your decision.

He is not just a sperm donor, he is not the guy down the block. He is definitely not father of the year. But he does have rights, whenever he chooses to go to court to get them in place. And your daughter has the right to know him.

Is a "normal childhood" having 2 parents in a loving home? She will never have that. Neither will most of the kids that are the focus of this site. They are accustomed, as are my 4 grandkids, to having 2 households at various times and a whole circle of extended family and "step" family. I was raised in an intact home. My grandkids are not. But they are happy and healthy and have a lot of people to love them.

You say your daughter is at an age where she prefers some people over others. That is normal, but if she doesn't get to know him now, it will be that much harder later on. There may not be a bond now...but how can there be if you deny it?

Of course, he may not bother going to court for his rights, and you will not be obligated to letting him see her. If he does, you will have no choice in the matter unless you can prove him unfit.

Do as these people are suggesting. If he goes to court, suggest a supervised, gradual schedule while they get acquainted and you get an idea of his parenting skills. If he shows his unpleasant side, deal with that through the court.

IMO, you are just going to do what you've already made up your mind to do. I don't think we've convinced you that there are alternatives.
I hope, for their sakes, you'll give it a chance.
If not, good luck to you and your daughter.

>That being said, even though he may be this way towards you,
>he may not be this way towards your child.

I realize this and as much as I worry about it, I can also accept the fact that he may not be.  As I said in my original post, the emotional abuse only happened with me, not others in his life, at least as far as I could see.  Emotions aside, I have trouble believing that the situation itself would be the best thing for a child.  Being shipped back and forth across the country, living between two homes, two families, two lifestyles and living in a situation where one family or the other is constantly missed.

I simply can't believe that is healthy and while it may be possible to pull it all off, is it BEST?

>If/when you two have a court ordered parenting plan, specify
>in the order that pick up time is at xx and the receiving
>parent will wait no longer than 30 minutes, if that parent
>fails to show (without making prior agrangements agreed upon
>by both parties) then visited is considered forfitted at
>during this weekend (something like that)

I think that these are excellent suggestions and if things do head that way, I will be sure to include things of this nature.  Thank you.

>Each child deserves to see both parents.  Should you ex choose
>not to exercise his visitation that is his loss, if he fails
>to exercise it for a long period of time, then request
>supervised visits until the child and father reunite.

Forgive the ignorance, but what would the purpose of supervision be and by 'reunite' do you mean reform the bond or actually coming together again?

>There are many deadbeat parents out there believe me, my ex is
>one of them, he made the choice not to see our son or pay
>child support, now he wonders why our son will not call him,
>hmmm.
>
>Now my dh on the other hand is a wonderful father to his
>children and my son.

Further proof that it is the relationship, not the genes that matter.  So if my daughter currently has no attachment and no bonds to him, why is it necessary to begin a relationship with him and expose her to a less than desirable situation simply because they share genes?  If it is possible to create and maintain a relationship and bond just as strong to another individual in the place where she lives, wouldn't that be desirable?

>...you have already made your decision.

This is no secret.  I made a decision two months ago when I told him I wanted to stop all contact.  In my initial post, I said I was not 100% comfortable with my decision and seeking reasons why it would be best to involve him in her life despite the negative aspects that the situation would include.  So far I have become a bit more at ease with the potential of it and having heard of others who have done it with some luck has helped, but what I am still seeking is reason that it is BEST.  Not possible, but best.

Why do genes make him such an important figure in her life and in fact, so important that she should be subjected to a life torn between two states and families?

>He is not just a sperm donor, he is not the guy down the
>block. He is definitely not father of the year. But he does
>have rights, whenever he chooses to go to court to get them in
>place. And your daughter has the right to know him.

Given the fact that the ONLY thing they share at this point is genes, why would she have any more need or right to know him than a sperm donor?

>Is a "normal childhood" having 2 parents in a loving home? She
>will never have that. Neither will most of the kids that are
>the focus of this site. They are accustomed, as are my 4
>grandkids, to having 2 households at various times and a whole
>circle of extended family and "step" family. I was raised in
>an intact home. My grandkids are not. But they are happy and
>healthy and have a lot of people to love them.

I believe that the normal childhood I was referring to was in response to another poster who said her son gladly gave up the normal summer life (little league, camping, etc.) that his friends had in order to spend summers with his father.

>You say your daughter is at an age where she prefers some
>people over others. That is normal, but if she doesn't get to
>know him now, it will be that much harder later on. There may
>not be a bond now...but how can there be if you deny it?

Right now she is beginning to form bonds which is why this comes across as a pressing matter to me now.  If I am able to find reason that a relationship with him is important and necessary enough to subject her to the negative effects of a split life, then I should allow this soon.  However, if the relationship is not important enough to maintain over state lines, it is better for both of them not to enter into in the first place.

>Of course, he may not bother going to court for his rights,
>and you will not be obligated to letting him see her. If he
>does, you will have no choice in the matter unless you can
>prove him unfit.
>
>Do as these people are suggesting. If he goes to court,
>suggest a supervised, gradual schedule while they get
>acquainted and you get an idea of his parenting skills. If he
>shows his unpleasant side, deal with that through the court.
>
>IMO, you are just going to do what you've already made up your
>mind to do. I don't think we've convinced you that there are
>alternatives.
>I hope, for their sakes, you'll give it a chance.
>If not, good luck to you and your daughter.

Thank you for your time and input.

Hopefully this goes to court and you get a judge that MAKES you give this man reasonable access to his child!
I think you should be ashamed of yourself for even considering keeping her from him and you will one day regret it if you do.  Your daughter could easily hate you for what you plan to do to her.
Like Jan said you have made up your mind so the die is cast, hopefully you wont have one of those statistics like we hear about in all the reports when she grows up.

Good Luck you are going to need it!

Okay, so you're the evil female - now I'm going to be the evil male.

Having read through the lion's share of these posts, I found myself thinking less and less of your puported plight, and focusing more on what I can only describe as a very disturbing trend among the women who chose to respond.

Let me warn you right now that I am going to generalize for convenience of prose, and to you women who may be the exception - I apologize in advance.

Many of you tell a very woeful tale of mental, psychological and physical abuse, but as one respondent so eloquently put it: There's three sides to every story - Yours, his and the truth. I suspect that in most cases, were the fathers allowed to respond, we'd be entertained with a much different version of what actually took place in the relationship.

Now if you're going to disagree, please don't insult everyone's intelligence with the convenient response of, "That's just not true!" I actually have a better idea. Show this site to the father you threw under the bus, show him your post, and give him an opportunity to tell his side of the story.

To quote an oft used phrase from our youth . . . I double dare you.

More importantly, I find it interesting (disgusting is probably more apropos) that the pervasive mentality among women is that you, and you alone, have been blessed with the divine power to facilitate, or deny, a relationship between the children and their father. This is very evident in not only your initial post, but in many of the responses you received.

So I'm asking you: Where do you get off placing yourself in a superior hierarchical position of parenthood than him? Do think that because you went through the birthing process that that in some way entitles you to dictate when, or if, the father can see his kids? Are we to buy into the nonsensical theory that because you and he could not get along that he doesn't love his children and should be excommunicated from their lives?

By whom? You? If so, you must have quite a favorable opinion of yourself. But why not, the courts certainly have.

Here's a thought to hopefully distract you while you're plotting to ruin his life: Maybe you're the reason the relationship didn't work. Maybe you're unfit to ever be in a relationship of any longevity. And maybe, just maybe, you're an absolute bitch who looks in the mirror and sees someone who is invisible to everyone around you.

I was married for a number of years and I can tell you for sure that the last five years of that marriage I hated the sight of her.  I have my reasons, and I also accept partial blame, but I can tell you without hesitation that it never affected how I was as a father to my two children.

A lot of women claim that they are sympathetic to the abuses suffered daily by fathers in this country, but it's nothing but empty rhetoric, and will remain as such, until women recognize that they are no more important, nor any more fit, to be a part of their children's lives than the fathers.

>Because they
>DO 'share genes', it is vital that they be allowed to develop
>a relationship.

This is exactly the point I am trying to hit upon.  Why do genes make this vital?  That point exactly is what I keep seeking out the reason for and I continue to fail to find.

Like most CP moms, you probably have a new man in your life who wants to play daddy and replace her real dad.

Since genetics do not matter in your view,, why keep her yourself? Obviously,  she needs no bond with you as a mother. Isn't that the "logic" you are using? Why not let two adults have her and form the nuclear family?


You see,, your own arguements can be used against you.  Who is to say that you are not a monster for denying this child her own heritage? So, with that premise,, perhaps she needs to be with a loving couple. Especially since genetically, parentage doesnt matter in your view.

You complain about him being controlling,,,, who's controlling now?

>Like most CP moms, you probably have a new man in your life
>who wants to play daddy and replace her real dad.

No, no man in my life and no desire to add a new one to the mix at the moment.  I've got my plate full at the moment and enough things to concentrate on other than relationships of that nature.  Not to mention she's only six months old.  I don't think in the given amount of time I would have been able to form a relationship I was certain enough of to invite another man to play that role.

Every child has a RIGHT to know BOTH parents regardless.

Living across the country is NOT a bad thing, it gives a child a chance to know BOTH parents and there relatives.  Even when you live in the same state, street whatever as the ex, there will ALWAYS be different rules, different families etc, so its not different.

The child will decide later in life it the other parent is a dead beat in there eyes, many kids have parents in jail BUT they love them anyways, we ALL have our faults and we should not punish children because what we believe the other parent is or may be.

It is important for a child to know BOTH parents, SO lets see if you are not going to allow dad in the picture are you going to request Child Support??????

Like I said my ex is a dead beat HOWEVER my son loves him because he is his dad, but he is lucky to have my dh to do the things his dad doesn't do with him.

I could've very easily never let my ex know he was the father of my child, but I felt that my child had a right to know, also what happens should you child become very ill, how would you know the medical background of dad and his family, what if dad was the only match as a donor for an organ or something. I suggest you think long and hard because later in life your child WILL find out and be soooo mad at you for not letting him know his father.

Why not suggest counseling for you both and anger management and parenting classes. So it can help you to figure out what is best for this child.


**These are my opinions, they are not legal advice**

>Since genetics do not matter in your view,, why keep her
>yourself? Obviously,  she needs no bond with you as a mother.
>Isn't that the "logic" you are using? Why not let two adults
>have her and form the nuclear family?

At this point, bonds already exist, which is something I have said does not currently exist between them.  Something I have said that if they did, I would see it as reason to maintain.  There is more between my daughter and I than a genetic link.  And if I thought that I was not able to provide my daughter with a loving and nurturing environment in which she could thrive, I would consider adoption.


>You see,, your own arguements can be used against you.  Who is
>to say that you are not a monster for denying this child her
>own heritage? So, with that premise,, perhaps she needs to be
>with a loving couple. Especially since genetically, parentage
>doesnt matter in your view.
>
>You complain about him being controlling,,,, who's controlling
>now?

I see a tremendous difference between controlling an adult and controlling the environment and situations our children are in.  Would you claim that I was controlling and unreasonable if I was to pull her back from running into the street or for not allowing her to drink Coke right before bed?

>
>I see a tremendous difference between controlling an adult and
>controlling the environment and situations our children are
>in.  Would you claim that I was controlling and unreasonable
>if I was to pull her back from running into the street or for
>not allowing her to drink Coke right before bed?



Thats the rub rain,, you dont see what you are contemplating as bad,, yet it is every bit as bad as him controlling you. You denying a child her parent, and a parent their child.

>Okay, so you're the evil female - now I'm going to be the
>evil male.

Thank you.  I welcome your input as I am trying to find the reasoning behind the other side of the argument.

>Now if you're going to disagree, please don't insult
>everyone's intelligence with the convenient response of,
>"That's just not true!" I actually have a better idea. Show
>this site to the father you threw under the bus, show him your
>post, and give him an opportunity to tell his side of the
>story.
>
>To quote an oft used phrase from our youth . . . I double dare
>you.


It was stated in one of the first posts that abuse is rarely one sided and I briefly considered doing just this but decided against it for two reasons:

1.  I see little point as this would be no more proof than my word to you.  I could just as easily log on under a different user name and respond claiming to be him.  

2.  To be brutally honest, I see this site as being a threat.  If I do decide to take that course of action, he is already significantly advantaged both legally and financially.  I don't need to point him in the direction of a wonderful group of people who have proven to be both well versed in the matters and very open and willing to help.  I may not like what you all have to say, but I do appreciate the overwhelming response I have received here.  No, I do not find this second reason to be "playing fair" or cool, but would you so willingly point your ex in the direction of amazing legal assistance when facing a divorce?  As I said, brutally honest.

>
>More importantly, I find it interesting (disgusting is
>probably more apropos) that the pervasive mentality among
>women is that you, and you alone, have been blessed with the
>divine power to facilitate, or deny, a relationship between
>the children and their father. This is very evident in not
>only your initial post, but in many of the responses you
>received.
>
>So I'm asking you: Where do you get off placing yourself in a
>superior hierarchical position of parenthood than him? Do
>think that because you went through the birthing process that
>that in some way entitles you to dictate when, or if, the
>father can see his kids? Are we to buy into the nonsensical
>theory that because you and he could not get along that he
>doesn't love his children and should be excommunicated from
>their lives?

I have laid down my life for my children.  I have made sacrifices far beyond those made by many.  He has chosen to avoid participating in several events that he was invited to.  Yes, nature did provide me the responsiblility for the brunt of her care for the first nine months, but beyond that her care and well being have fallen to me.  (I will not list the physical, emotional, social, or financial sacrifices I have made in this respect as this was something dictated by nature and therefore, not his or my doing.)  Yet the sacrifices have extended beyond those nine months.  Do not get me wrong, I do this willingly and without complaint.  I simply state this because time after time, I have been the one who took responsibility.  Not him.  This was something that even when we were on at least decent speaking terms he never once disputed or offered an alternative to.  He was perfectly willing to give me that responsibility and authority without question.  His offer of assistance has been limited to financial which I chose to refuse.  

>
>By whom? You? If so, you must have quite a favorable opinion
>of yourself. But why not, the courts certainly have.
>
>Here's a thought to hopefully distract you while you're
>plotting to ruin his life: Maybe you're the reason the
>relationship didn't work. Maybe you're unfit to ever be in a
>relationship of any longevity. And maybe, just maybe, you're
>an absolute bitch who looks in the mirror and sees someone who
>is invisible to everyone around you.

While I resent the implication that I am trying to ruin his life, I can understand why you may get that impression.  If I could make my decisions and live out my life without harming him, I would.  Unfortunately, that does not seem to be possible as even a compromise at this point is bound to leave both of us wanting.  Hurting him is not my goal.  Spite has never been a coat that I wear well.

And if I am a bitch, then so be it.  But at the very least, I am a bitch who loves my children unconditionally and seeks to do the best for them.  If I am wrong in my conclusions in what is in their best interests, then I am wrong.  But if I am convinced that something is right for my children (regardless of the correctness of this conclusion), I would be wrong to take any other course of action.  It is also my responsibility to consider matters and not come to these conclusions lightly, but in the end, whatever I honestly believe to be best for them is what I am obligated to do.

>
>I was married for a number of years and I can tell you for
>sure that the last five years of that marriage I hated the
>sight of her.  I have my reasons, and I also accept partial
>blame, but I can tell you without hesitation that it never
>affected how I was as a father to my two children.
>

I have no doubt that if given the opportunity, he would love her and also try his best to be a good father.  I think that he did that with his daughter as well, but was shortsighted and inexperienced in his execution of those duties.  Right now, I have many people here that continue to say the same thing, but I have yet to have anyone explain the logic behind it.  Yes, I realize he can potentially be a good father, despite what I may think of him.  Yes, I realize that that was the way he treated ME, not HER.  Yes, I realize that he can potentially love her.  The things that I fail to understand are

How do genetic ties make him an ideal person to participate in her life when time after time, people who claim this have also offered support that genetics are not more important than relationships?

In an ideal situation, should a young child be shipped back and forth across the country between two families and made to bear separation from one family or the other at all times?  Yes, I realize that this is not an ideal world, but I seek to provide my children with as close to that as I can.

And finally, WHY do genetic ties with no other bonds or attachment provide a sole reason to subject a child to the less than ideal life that developing and maintaining a relationship of that nature would require?

>A lot of women claim that they are sympathetic to the abuses
>suffered daily by fathers in this country, but it's nothing
>but empty rhetoric, and will remain as such, until women
>recognize that they are no more important, nor any more fit,
>to be a part of their children's lives than the fathers.
>

I sincerely appreciate your honesty and straight forwardness.  Unfortunately, I think that unless I can find satisfactory answers to the above questions, I will need to abandon my quest for answers in this forum as it seems to only be frustrating myself and the others posting here.

>How do genetic ties make him an ideal person to participate in
>her life when time after time, people who claim this have also
>offered support that genetics are not more important than
>relationships?
>

Genetic ties do not make ANYONE an ideal person to be anything, but it gives that person the RIGHT to be part of the child they produced.  Were your parents ideal parents?  Probably not, but they were yours.  You don't get to decide who your family is.

>In an ideal situation, should a young child be shipped back
>and forth across the country between two families and made to
>bear separation from one family or the other at all times?
>Yes, I realize that this is not an ideal world, but I seek to
>provide my children with as close to that as I can.

Again, no situation is ideal but I honestly think you are letting your negative feelings toward the child's dad get in the way of sound judgement.  And it sounds like you are trying to rationalize it all by saying "but I'm doing the best for my child"
>
>And finally, WHY do genetic ties with no other bonds or
>attachment provide a sole reason to subject a child to the
>less than ideal life that developing and maintaining a
>relationship of that nature would require?

You are assuming it is less than ideal.  Two parents not together is less than ideal.  Why exacerbate it and completely shut out the other parent.  In my opinion, that makes it less ideal.
>
>>A lot of women claim that they are sympathetic to the abuses
>>suffered daily by fathers in this country, but it's nothing
>>but empty rhetoric, and will remain as such, until women
>>recognize that they are no more important, nor any more fit,
>>to be a part of their children's lives than the fathers.
>>
>
>I sincerely appreciate your honesty and straight forwardness.
>Unfortunately, I think that unless I can find satisfactory
>answers to the above questions, I will need to abandon my
>quest for answers in this forum as it seems to only be
>frustrating myself and the others posting here.

By "satisfactiry answers", do you mean you're not getting the answers you want?  Because that is what it sounds like. You are getting frustrated because people are telling you what you don't want to hear.  A majority of the people here are women...and a majority of the people are telling you something different than what it appears you are going to do.  Are they all wrong? we have all been through situations regarding our children. We are speaking from experience.  We all have the right to protect our children...but we also have the right to be a part of their lives.  

O-K  back to the abuse CARD, as it is.   I was also married to an abuser. The whole emotional and physical, broken bones the nine yards.

However, we've been divorced for 18 yrs. and over the years I have come to see that while I could never have beaten him up, I certainly KNEW what buttons to push, and I am also very independent.  So I refused to just lay down and take.

I NEVER kept our 3 children from NEVER!!  At 16 my daughter decided she wanted to move back to the city and live with dad.  I didn't approve but DH andI had been very careful and because of the age of the children when we divorced they had no clue what happened durong that marriage.

Less than a year after moving there she was back home because she and dad had a fight over taking his dog for a walk and he ended up shoving her against a wall and putting his forearm against her throat and his hand over mouth so that his parents wouldn't hear her scream.
This was the first time she had any idea what happened. And I think that even if she did know there are some lessons that must be learned on their own.  His mother found out what happened and said to my daughter  "Like Father, Like Son".   EXPLAINS ALOT!!

Of course this is the same woman who said to me when she found ot why I filed for divorce  "It's a mans perogative to hit his wife"  
I was floored by that attitude.  I was raised in an intact family and had never had any experience with any kind of abuse.

At 23, 20, and 19 the kids have very little to do with him, becaus he tried to tell the kids that no abuse ever happened. But when they did a court check they found several of the police reports and the restraining orders.  He lied and they know it.  

But on the other hand DH's ex refused him for years, even telling his children that he wasn't their father her new husband was their only father.

Please consider that whatever kind of Father he "might" be he is her father.  Kids who don't know their fathers feel like 1/2 of them is missing.They think if my dad is sooo bad that mom didn't want him they I must 1/2 bad for being part of him.

It's not your choice to let him see her or not see her IT IS HER right to see him.  HER RIGHT, NOT YOURS

hello

you are asking for a reason to support why should a genetic linc be a basis for allowing visitation and a relationship?

has paternity been established? has the genetic linc that you keep refering to been written in stone?

Why is a genetic linc important.  

pros

studies show that children with 2 involved caring parents do much better than children raised with one parent and one univolved or apathetic parent.

it is her right to have access to both biological parents

it is her right to know her heritage and extended family

it is her choice to univolve herself later if she so chooses.


cons

I dont like him

I dont like how he speaks to me

I dont think it will be good for her

I dont think that her father is important in her life

I dont think that contact with him will add to the quality of her life.

I dont think that shipping her all over the country will be good for her.

I think he might do this and that and this and that.........

Seeing a pattern here yet.

If your life is all about you then personally I think you should have had a little fore thought and perhaps not involved someone else in your life.

When you have a child It is not all about you any more but instead all about them.  If you prefer not to see the bigger picture and require proof that you are being selfish and narrow minded here i am sure when your daughter gets older she will be more than happy to let you know all about it.


I would much rather be able to tell my children that I tried to do what was best for them rather than lie to them and pretend that doing what is best for me is also what is best for them.

I have not heard you express one valid concern about the quality of care that the father provides only recriminations and concerns about your own feelings of unworthiness in his eyes.  

In other words my dear it is all about you and your making up reasons as to why the father should not have contact.  YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU!!!

some men just are not cut out to be partners but your intention of denying contact is not only selfish and bitter i can also almost guarantee the fact that if you continue in this type of thing it will damage your own relationship with your child down the road.  

every one always looks for the easy way out and when i first read your letter i thought it was wonderful that you were so expressive and open telling your story and looking for help in making your decision.

after reading all of your other posts i realized that you are looking for an answer that is already there but you are requiring that proof be handed to you as to why genetics are important and that is just plain silly and simpleminded.  why is a second cousin or a grandparent less important and should you worry about the child establishing a relationship with them too!!!!!!!!!!!  (COME ON).....  what came first the chicken or the egg....

well on this site the child comes first  and if the parent tries then they deserve to be in the childs life..

You need to see someone and work out your emotional problems before they start to play with your childrens minds it is quite apparent that you are quite damaged from your latest relationship.  

I can only hope that your children are taught at school to realize the importance of family because apparently you missed that day in class or had a very stinted family upbringing yourself.  raising the question of genetics as many times as you did i am wondering how you survived your first relationship long enough to have a second child.  I am sure the males in relationships with you feel very important and secure .. gosh they are not even given the rank of sperm donor....

I can only hope that the dad gets online and finds this site and perhaps he will end up with custody after your visitation denials and then what shall you do???   It is happening lots more frequently every day.  VISITATION DENIAL = CUSTODY CHANGE to the parent more likely to facilitate a relationship with the other parent.

We are not talking about your rights here but the rights of your daughter and fortunately for her she has you looking out for her rights ....  I am sure you will inevitibly do what is right for yourself.

rini

90% of homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes.
[U.S. D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census.]


80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes.
[Criminal Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26, 1978.]


60% of repeat rapists grew up without fathers.
Raymond A. Knight and Robert A. Prentky, "The Developmental Antecednts of Adult Adaptations of Rapist Sub-Types," Criminal Justice and Behavior, Vol 14, Dec., 1987, p 403-426.


71% of pregnant teenagers lack a father.
[US Dept. of Health & Human Services press release, Friday, March 26, 1999.]


63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes.
[US D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census.]


85% of children who exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes.
[Center for Disease Control.]


90% of adolescent repeat arsonists live with only their mother.
[Wray Herbert, "Dousing the Kindlers," Psychology Today, January, 1985, p.28.]


71% of high school dropouts come from fatherless homes.
[National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools.]


75% of adolescent patients in chemical abuse canters come from fatherless homes.
[Rainbows for all God`s Children.]


70% of juveniles in state operated institutions have no father.
[US Dept. of Justice, Special Report, Sept. 1988.]


85% of youths in prisons grew up in a fatherless home.
[Fulton Co. Georgia jail populations, Texas Dept. of Corrections, 1992.]


75% of prisoners grew up without a father.
Daniel Amneus, The Garbage Generation, Alhambra, CA: Primrose Press, 1990.


Fatherless boys and girls are: twice as likely to drop out of high school; twice as likely to end up in jail; four times more likely to need help for emotional or behavioral problems.
[US D.H.H.S. news release, March 26, 1999.]


43% of US children live without their father.
[US Department of Census.]


Two years after divorce, 51% of children in sole mother custody homes only see their father once or twice a year, or never.
[Guidubaldi, 1989; Guidubaldi, 1988; Guidubaldi, Perry, & Nastasi, 1987.]


42% of fathers fail to see their children at all after divorce.
[Frank F. Furstenberg, Jr. and Christine Winguist Nord, "Parenting Apart," Journal of Marriage and the Family, vol 47, no. 4, November, 1985.]


90% of father disengagement is caused by obstruction of access by a custodial parent anxious to break the father-child ties.
[Kruk, 1992, cited by Prof. John Guidubaldi in his Minority Report and Policy Recommendations of the US Commission on Child & Family Welfare, US Code Citation: 42 USC 12301, 1996. Same cause identified by Braver, Wolchik, & Sandler, 1985, without incidence values.]
Fatherless Girls
Jonetta Rose Barras is a Washington D.C. columnist. In her 2000 book, Whatever Happened to Daddy's Little Girl?: The Impact of Fatherlessness on Black Women [One World Ballantine], she describes the lasting impact of fatherlessness on her and other women.

"Promiscuous fatherless women are desperately seeking love. Or we are terrified that if we give love, it will not be returned. So we pull away from it, refusing to permit it to enter our houses, our beds, or our hearts. To fill the void that our fathers created, we only make the hole larger and deeper,"

"If it is true that a father helps to develop his daughter's confidence in herself and in her femininity; that he helps her to shape her style and understanding of male-female bonding; and that he introduces her to the external world, plotting navigational courses for her success, then surely it is an indisputable conclusion that the absence of these lessons can produce a severely wounded and disabled woman."

[Jonetta Barras's book is a moving and powerful plea to men to realize their importance to their children. It is a yearning for male acceptance and understanding that only a father can give, and must be there from birth. But the plea from most fathers is, "LET US BE FATHERS." This is not a simple case of "individual responsibility." If society under-values fathers, there is little one single man can do. Society must ask what it is doing to cause these problems. — Ed.]

Well, imagine the roles were reversed, and imagine that this is you that he's talking about:

>Further proof that it is the relationship, not the genes that
>matter.  So if my daughter currently has no attachment and no
>bonds to her, why is it necessary to begin a relationship with
>her and expose her to a less than desirable situation simply
>because they share genes?  If it is possible to create and
>maintain a relationship and bond just as strong to another
>individual in the place where she lives, wouldn't that be
>desirable?

So....if genes don't matter, then technically you don't matter, right?

See where I'm going? Obviously I'm being facetious, but my point is that he's not just anyone, he's her father. He matters to her just like you do. He may not have made a stellar start, but to take the position that you have is, I think, a mistake. The problem with mistakes of this nature is that it may take ten years or more before you come to the realization that what you did wasn't, as it turns out, in the best interests of your daughter.

I hope you are never marginalized in the same way that he is. He has his problems, but he is still the child's father, one of her parents, and that means something. It goes way beyond the fact that they share some genes, in my opinion, and I hope that you can come to see that.

Good God, for the SAME reason that YOU develop a relationship with her!  What difference does it make which parent it is, BOTH are important and vital to a child's life!

'However, if the relationship is not important enough to maintain over state lines, it is better for both of them not to enter into in the
first place.'

Absolutely NOT.  That is NOT for you to say.  Like I said before, whatever relationship they end up having together, that is up to THEM, NOT you.  The key here is to TRY.  Maybe he will want to develop a relationship with his daughter, maybe not.  That is for him to decide, NOT you.  And there is NO way of knowing how or IF it will develop unless you TRY.  Maybe it will start out good but fizzle out, no one has any way of knowing what will happen.

I think you are looking too far into the future and trying to maintain too much control of the situation.  If he chooses to fight for visitation, how can you deny him?  If the situation was reversed, would you want to be denied out of hand, just because he thinks YOU would be a bad influence on her?

Two VERY important things to think about here and neither one of them have to do with genes (personally, I think you're too hung up on that):  Think about how you would feel if the tables were turned and, for the sake of your daughter, TRY something, anything to allow him to start a relationship.  If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.  But there is NO way to predict the future or to have any control over it.

This is the part of taking risks with having children.

'Being shipped back and forth across the country, living between two homes, two families, two lifestyles and living in a situation where one family or the other is constantly missed.'

Then let me ask you this, which is more damaging:  spending a much larger block of time (2 weeks or more), and getting into a more normal rhythm of day-to-day activities....or spending ONLY 48 hours at one house and JUST getting used to it, then being uprooted and go back to another house?  I have seen this with BOTH DS and SS.  And I truly think that DS had the better deal (tho not often enough) by going cross-country to see his dad for the summer than SS does in coming to our house every 2 weeks for 48 hours.  He no more than gets settled in, then he has to leave.  To me, that is MUCH more disruptive.  Best case scenario (especially since he ONLY lives 2 blocks away), is for him to spend either one or two weeks off and on with both parents.  He has two parents who live in two different homes, thus he understands that he has two homes as well.  Chidlren are MUCH more adaptable then many adults give them credit for.

So if what you're saying is that a child should never have two homes or be forced to split time between parents, then one parent should ALWAYS be outcast for good?  I know for a fact that SS LIVES for seeing his father.  His BM would have loved nothing better than to wipe my DH out of SS's life, but DH stood his ground.  He still only has EOW and EO holidays, but the BM has made it so difficult, especially for SS that he's pulling away from her, and he's only 10!  I have every reason to believe that when he turns 18 and leaves her home (if we don't have primary physical by then, since he's been begging for it since he was 7), he's gonna tell her to kiss hiss ass and not look back.  He HATES the way she tries to deny him his father.  And that is WITH a bond being formed!

You keep saying there is no bond formed between them.  Then MAKE it happen!  That is YOUR responsibility as a parent!  It's one step at a time:  allow them to create that bond, let them try to develop a relationship, ease into it gradually, and if at any time thru this process he decides this isn't what he wants with his daughter, then make the appropriate changes.

It is NOT for you to decide whether they bond or have a relationship together, it is ONLY up to them.  But it IS your responsibility to foster it and make it happen if it is meant to happen.  No one will ever know until it is tried.

Why? Why? Why?
Logic Logic Logic
Reasoning Reasoning Reasoning

What are you? A freakin Vulcan?? Jeez woman...how many ways can somebody tell you that it's very important to form, foster and nurture a father/daughter relationship?  No, it's not an ideal situation to have children go back and forth between homes, whether down the street, same state or across the country. To paraphrase a popular saying "You divorce/leave your spouse/significant other. The kids don't divorce/leave their father/mother."

Hopefully, next time you feel the urge to have someone jump back in the gene pool they'll use chlorine.

>Unfortunately, I think that unless I can find satisfactory
>answers to the above questions, I will need to abandon my
>quest for answers in this forum as it seems to only be
>frustrating myself and the others posting here

Usually when people say something like this it means they didn't really want advice, they wanted validation. People here are being very straight with you and speaking from their hearts, but you don't really want to hear what they're telling you.

You either want people to agree with your decision to not include the father in his daughter's life, or you want people here to flame you so you can go away feeling justified that we're all a bunch of a-holes.

I don't think I'll spend much more time going back and forth with you; I honestly think you had your mind made up before you came here and are just looking for someone to tell you that what you're doing is okay. It's not, and to be honest, I feel sorry for your daughter- she's the one that will ultimately be shortchanged by your actions.

Look let me tell you that I too was abused by my ex. I too thought at one point in time that our 2 girl should not be around there father. Our 2 girls are now 12 and 10 and me having anything to do with keeping them from their father was the worst mistake I ever made. Girls need a their dads as much as if not more than boys do. If you try to interfere in a relationship trust me I know from experience that it will come back to haunt you!! My ex was a terriable husband. He litterally beat me half to death and he was mentally abusive as well. But he never intentially hurt his kids! One incident he did hit the our baby that was in my arms while he was trying to hit me to stop me from leaving with the kids but believe me it was an accident and he never again raised his hand to me while a child was in my arms. The baby thank god was fine not even a bruise but yes at that point I truely did believe that he would hurt his kids. We went through the supervised visit thing and then he was allowed regular visits through the court. Actually now 7 years after our divorce we dont even use the co. He calls and says he wants them and he gets them. It took me alot to realize how much the girls love and need their dad but now that I know the trama I caused I would do anything to change it if I could. I cant change the past but the future is bright and I will do anything in my power to see that the girls maintain a relationship with their dad. In fact he got himself in trouble last year and he is currently in prison. I have taken the girls to see him in prison and they write and talk on the phone. Before he went to prison he had a baby with another woman and I go to all lengths to see that the girls get to see their sister and have a relationship with her as well as with their dad. Look Im not here to judge you but you have to think of the child before yourself. It is really sad to see people keep their kids away from their parents whether male or female. Unless there are real good reasons why and still supervised is an option. My advice is DONT DO IT YOU WILL REGRET IT!!!!!!! It may not be for years but you will!! Good luck on your choices you make

As others here have already stated, you had your mind made up (as if it's your decision) long before you ever wasted our time with your "everyboby should feel sorry for poor little me" story.

All I can say is that you represent everything that is wrong with women and their attitudes when it comes to children and fathers, and I hope like hell that through some divine intervention, he find that one-in-a-million judge and hands you your ass in court.

I do agree with you on one thing, though. You may as well go away because no one on this board is going to validate your self-serving, idiotic philosophy of how you "believe" you want things to be versus how they should be.

I really hope you lose custody and get two weekends a month. Then you'll know the deal.

I just wanted to add a bit of my own thoughts.

1. You stated that the father wants to be part of her life. You and your daughter are very lucky. This is a very good reason, for your daughter's best interest, to promote a relationship immediately. He will undoubtably bring this to court. It may be next week or 10 years down the road. If you try to work things out now and assist (as MANY people will agree is your responsibility) in building this relationship, she will not be 3 years old having to spend long periods with someone she doesn't know. She will already be familiar with him and it will be a lot less stressful for everyone.

 You probably disagree and I'm sure that I will get a response from someone that I an wrong but the child is still such a little baby. I know people who have made mistakes for much longer than 6 months, learn to regret it and do everything in their power to fix the mess they made. I am sure this is the case with Dad.  He may have flaked out for 6 months, but jeeze, the next 17.5 years should be ruled by this?

Many fathers feel afraid and hurt by the relationship break-up. Many are scared of the accusations of the custodial parent (abuse). Many have to go through a greiving process.  Dads are not assumed parents, so many have the terrible fear of losing their kids, so they opt to back out for a while. Distance themselves emotionally. Usually this is temporary and after that, they can have a great realtionship with the child. Sure it is selfish, but not all people a perfect.

2. Sorry to say that you brought up one of the things that bothers me the most. Child support. You are not being generous by not collecting it. It is not YOUR money. By not excepting it, it doesn't give you the rights to more control over your daughter. This is what your child deserves. If you don't need the money, put it in a college fund. You did mention as one of the hardships that you have encountered being financial. I can't feel for you on this one. This was self-imposed. You did not accept the finanial support from Dad that he was willing and able to give, for what? So you can be the "suffering single mom"? IMO you should set up child support payments as soon as possible.  


I would love to hear that you have decided to allow Dad to be the Dad that he wants to be. I have a feeling he will bypass your permission and get it throught the courts, if you do not become more helpful.

>Given the fact that the ONLY thing they share at this
>point is genes, why would she have any more need
>or right to know him than a sperm donor?


Well, given the fact that the ONLY thing that YOU share at this point are genes, why should you have any more need or right to know your child than a womb donor?

LMAO!

Sometimes there's enlightenment in brevity.

>I just wanted to add a bit of my own thoughts.
>
>1. You stated that the father wants to be part of her life.
>You and your daughter are very lucky. This is a very good
>reason, for your daughter's best interest, to promote a
>relationship immediately. He will undoubtably bring this to
>court. It may be next week or 10 years down the road. If you
>try to work things out now and assist (as MANY people will
>agree is your responsibility) in building this relationship,
>she will not be 3 years old having to spend long periods with
>someone she doesn't know. She will already be familiar with
>him and it will be a lot less stressful for everyone.

First of all, let me say thank you for your response.  It seems I have managed to turn the borads into a flamefest and sorting through the posts to find those who are still trying to be helpful seems to have become increasingly difficult.  I've at this point had a couple of days to think and reflect upon some of the things that have been said here.  More and more I am coming to the conclusion that I am talking to the wrong people.  Not because I am not hearing what I want, I knew that coming in.  But rather that I need to be talking to him.  I'm still not convinced that contact is the best thing in the world, but I hate the way that we last parted.  It was brief and emotional.  I have always been a big believer in at least explaining why a parting occurs and not leaving the other party in the dark.  We had to memorize the preamble to the Declaration if Independence in 7th grade and it has always stuck with me as being wise and honorable.  Anyway, I also try at all costs to not react out of anger or hurt.  If something upsets me, I tend to give it time to cool, think it over, and not react immediately.  If later on I still believe that I have reason to be upset, I will talk about it.

That last day that we saw each other, I was very upset and emotional.  I didn't see how I was ever going to be able to heal so long as he was salting still fresh wounds.  Normally I would have given this some time and thought about it, but as I was walking towards my truck, he kept pushing for answers and insisted that I tell him what was wrong and what I was thinking.  I told him I would talk to him later and needed time to think but he continued to push.  The result?  An emotional "get away from me" type of response.  Yet as a lifetime of biting my tongue when emotional have trained for, I said as little as possible.  Enough to let him know what was running through my mind and satisfy what he was asking, but I did not go into detail as many of the things I was thinking were hurtful and emotional.  I never sat down with him and calmly explained what I was feeling.  I never gave him the opportunity to give me what he thought.  I never gave him the chance to plea his case or give his side of things.

That day, after such a brief explanation of things, I honestly expected to come home to either an email or a phone call.  At the time I figured I could then give things some time and cooling and go back and address them.  Yet there was neither.  Hours stretched into days which stretched into weeks.  YES (before getting flamed for this point) I realize that it is what I asked for.  He did nothing but give me exactly what I asked for.

But as time went by, I began to wonder why he was able to let go so easily.  I can honestly not imagine that I would have ever been able to walk away from any of my children...or in this case watch them go...without a fight.  I thought of all the things over time that he had claimed meant the world to him and yet he was willing to drop as soon as something more interesting came along,   I couldn't believe that he was that serious about his role as a parent.

Yet your points of being human and comments such as this have helped tremendously:

>Dads are not assumed parents, so many have the terrible fear
>of losing their kids, so they opt to back out for a while.
>Distance themselves emotionally. Usually this is temporary and
>after that, they can have a great realtionship with the child.
>Sure it is selfish, but not all people a perfect.

Thank you for that.  If nothing else, it has given me a way to view things that allows me to believe that perhaps he is willing to go the distance and be what she needs.  That it is not a lack of care, but rather some other motivation that allowed him to give in so easily.  Then again, as I stated in my original post, perhaps he has been taking these past couple of months to begin a legal process and did not walk away without a fight as it first appeared.  Either way, thank you.

>2. Sorry to say that you brought up one of the things that
>bothers me the most. Child support. You are not being generous
>by not collecting it. It is not YOUR money. By not excepting
>it, it doesn't give you the rights to more control over your
>daughter. This is what your child deserves. If you don't need
>the money, put it in a college fund. You did mention as one of
>the hardships that you have encountered being financial. I
>can't feel for you on this one. This was self-imposed. You did
>not accept the finanial support from Dad that he was willing
>and able to give, for what? So you can be the "suffering
>single mom"? IMO you should set up child support payments as
>soon as possible.  

The extreme financial hardship I spoke of occurred during the summer that I was pregnant.  School normally provides me with loans, scholarships, and grants to live off of, but as it was summer, these were not available.  I had found out that I was pregnant in May, just before school let out.  At the time, I worked in an environment that I was exposed to radiation and other environmental hazards and was no longer able to keep my job due to risks.  Not anyone's fault...simply how it was.  I had begun searching for other employment but by that time I had gone to my first prenatal appointment.  Due to health concerns at that point and complications that I had during my last pregnancy, I was placed on bed rest for 2 hours at a time and instructed not be up for more than 3 hours at a time before going down for another 2.  I am NOT proud of it, but I eventually went and applied for TANF (welfare) and it was over three months before the case was processed.  By that point, my savings had been depleted, I was behind on bills, and we were resorting to food banks and shelter handouts.  About the time we received TANF, school had started up again and provided me with a schedule that fit the bed rest situation) and I had income from another source.

No, we do not have an over abundance of money now, but my kids need for nothing in that department.  All of their needs and many of their wants are taken care of.  When she was 3 months old, he asked what I wanted to do by way of support and I told him that we were doing okay.  If he felt obligated, he could start a fund for her.  If it was ever needed, then it would be there and if not, then she could have money for school some day.  He agreed to that.  I'm not sure if he ever started that or not.  Moot point, however.

To be 100% honest, a big part of the reason I did not accept money from him was fear.  We had split up recently, too recently for comfort.  One of my friends left a physically abusive situation and in an attempt to get her back, her husband came into the house, took her daughter and left.  My friend called the police but when they arrived, they said since there was no custody order and his name was on the birth certificate, there was nothing they could do.  My ex had done that with his daughter once but it was for very different and very justified reasons.  In fact, I helped him do it at the time but as this had happened, I knew he was well aware that it could legally be done.  I am fairly certain he would never pull a stunt like that to simply regain control and bring me back, but I feared the possibility.  When she was born, I did not file to establish paternity.  Yes, this may have been selfish, but I was scared and did not want to be put in that position.  It could always be done at a later time and at that moment, I was grasping for every possible opportunity to feel safe in my own home.  I did not see that accepting support would help this situation.  It only gave him legal grounds and claim over her.  Something that I was not comfortable with at the time.  Yes, I could have started a college fund for her, but that would mean the money passed through my hands.  It seemed safer to allow him to do it on his own.

>I would love to hear that you have decided to allow Dad to be
>the Dad that he wants to be. I have a feeling he will bypass
>your permission and get it throught the courts, if you do not
>become more helpful.

More and more what I am coming to feel is that I need to talk to him, to hear him out, to at least try to find a common ground.  Perhaps we will never come to an agreement that both of us are happy with, but I at least need to try.  I hate the thought of allowing them to bond if the situation eventually leads to a total separation.  Right now their only tie is genetic.  Why allow more if it would hurt her eventually.  Yet time after time, we build relationships not just with parents, but friends, neighbors, coworkers, classmates.  All of these relationships can be meaningful and beneficial yet to believe that we will carry all of these relationships forever is unreasonable.  We suffer losses every day through death, parting of ways, moving, etc.  My daughter will never be exempt from being parted from someone she has bonded with.  When I move, she will be separated from my parents, my friends, her school mates, etc.  She will be given an opportunity to build new relationships where ever we go, but where ever we go, she will also lose them.

Allowing contact now does not mean that I have to do so forever.  It will allow them to get to know each other for the next couple of years.  If he continues to flake out on her and I am able to reevaluate things at that time and decide it is not what is best for her, then I will deal with that when the time comes.  If it is another loss that she takes on with part of the move, then I will do whatever possible to ease the transition for her and help her to establish bonds with family and loved one in the new place.  If he proves to be devoted and a good influence, then I will also deal with that when the time comes.  Nothing is written in stone.  Now, while we are still close and contact is easy, is probably a better time to test those waters and find out how the relationship will develop than once there are 1500 miles in between.  The first step is to talk.

Once again, thank you for not giving up on me.  Sometimes it may require a swift kick in the ass to see things from another point of view and break out of the one I am locked into, but I swear my heart is in the right place.

>If they currently had a relationship, there might be reason
>to keep him involved.

That's like me holding your head under the water and telling you that "if you could breath right now, I might let you keep breathing."

Ok I have to say .. I have been where you are .. I too was in that type of relationship ....... I also was not married to him and I also wanted to move.. BUT .. I believe a child has a right to both parents, the logic is simply this she is not YOUR child she is BOTH his and YOURS .. You could not have her in your life without him playing a part right?

You have no right to say well she is MINE and I do not want you to see her.

My son is now 8 (almost 9) he spends every spring break every summer and EO christmas with dad... and OUR son is better for that...

My son can speak 2 languages fluently
My son has uncles and grammas and Aunts and cousins there as well as here, He is secure in both settings. He is loved by all of us and he KNOWS it....

ALSO keep in mind that how he is as a father is in no way affected by how he is as a partner.. he may have treated you badly, but that does not automatically mean he will treat her that way.

In 10 years, when your daughter wants to know where her daddy is, will you be able to look her in the eye and tell her YOU made the choice to keep him away?

To put it simply.....

Unless you are God or a judge YOU do not have the right to quest for logic or deny a parent their child.

That's how many times I counted your use of the word "I" and "me" in this one post alone. And I did a quick count so there's probably more.

So who are you trying to fool with your transparent concern regarding the supposed welfare of your daughter? You care about only one person in all of this, and I think the subject line pretty much answers who that is.

By the way, though I have no degree or formal training in psychology, I think I could safely and confidently submit that you need to seek some serious professional help. And not for the reasons you probably think.

Your long diatribes really have nothing at all to do with this poor guy you've repeatedly thrown under the bus to all of us. They're actually about you. You obviously have some very serious issues you need to deal with, starting with why you sabotaged your relationship with this guy, and why you're now trying to sabotage his relationship with his daughter.

Do this baby a favor and let her Dad raise her until you can get to the point where you're firing on all cylinders emotionally. And if you ever do get to that point, then you can start with supervised visitation, and after maybe a year or two you can be alone with her for an hour a week. At some point you might even get an overnight but only if he doesn't accuse you of emotional and/or physical abuse. If he does . . . well . . . then it's back to supervised visitations for you.

Oh, sorry, I was fantasizing there for a minute. So anyway, go get some help and fix yourself because he's not the one who's broken here...you are. Believe that!

>Since genetics do not matter in your view,, why keep her
>yourself? Obviously,  she needs no bond with you as a mother.
>Isn't that the "logic" you are using?

It sure is, and I believe that's called "shooting yourself in the foot". She doesn't get it, but you *know*  she'd have a major fit if she was on the receiving end of the crap she's planning on doing.

I noticed she didn't respond to any of my posts. I believe that's because I showed her the sheer nonsense in her "logic", and she has no way to argue with what I said.

>>Since genetics do not matter in your view,, why keep her
>>yourself? Obviously,  she needs no bond with you as a
>mother.
>>Isn't that the "logic" you are using?
>
>It sure is, and I believe that's called "shooting yourself in
>the foot". She doesn't get it, but you *know*  she'd have a
>major fit if she was on the receiving end of the crap she's
>planning on doing.
>
>I noticed she didn't respond to any of my posts. I believe
>that's because I showed her the sheer nonsense in her "logic",
>and she has no way to argue with what I said.


At this point in time, I have bonded with her.  If I was to learn that somehow she was not in fact my daughter, I would still not want any other.  It was several months before I was ever away from her and at this point, the longest we have been apart was three hours.  She is my life.  If she were another person's genetic creation, I would not love her any less.  Now she is at that amazing stage where they really begin to recognize people.  When we have been apart for any length of time, I am greeted by smiles, kicking of feet, and waving of arms as she leans towards me.  She has a really cute way of scrumching up her nose and "snuffling" when she gets excited.  Is this reaction a result of genes?  I doubt it.  There is more than JUST a genetic link between us at this point.

Brent,  I was grateful for your warm welcome and attempts at help.  Yet as time went by, they turned more and more negative.  I saw little reason to be baited into arguments of that nature as it seemed to no longer be an exchange of opinions or facts, but rather more of a direct attack.  That was not what I came here for.  I came in search of answers and taking up both my time and yours and using these boards for insults and negative exchanges did not seem appropriate.  I can understand your frustration and if that is your point of view, I was not about to tell you not to express it.  I simply felt there were more productive ways to use my time and energy than slinging insults and petty arguments.  By the end of this, I was having to work hard to sort through the more negative attacks to find those who were continuing to offer consturctive points of view, but I eventually found some who have helped.  I do, however continue to be thankful for those (including yourself) who have tried to help.  Take care.

The thing that you do not know and have never experienced is how full and complete a father would make your daughter's life.  You can't see it because none of you children have had a father so you can't see how incomplete their lives are.

I would have never believed it but I experienced it first hand, a child(even a toddler) recognizes their father as an equal to their mother even though they may not see the father as frequently.  Its hardwired into their brains.

Remember this though:
If you prevent a good father from being a part of his daughter's life it will be the worst thing you could ever do to your daughter.  She will ask you what happened to her daddy, and you will have to lie to her.  Every girl needs a daddy, and without one she will sleep around alot when she gets older--its because she is try to fill that void.  No other man will love your daughter the way he will.  Its a karma thing, do ask why, it just is.

-----
my ex moved out of state before her son was born.  As a result the boy never had a father.  She sincerley regretted it, because he always wanted to know about his father and why he "left" him.  We broke up after my daughter was a year old, before she could talk.  I thought she would forget me or have less of a bond because I see her every other weekend.  The child blew my mind.  She is now two and seven months and loves me equally with her mom.  The mom now sees what she did to her son.  Good luck, don't do it.

I have been reading these posts for the last few days.

My personal opinion is you are a very selfish person. You are looking at your child like a peice of property. Nice of you to share what cute things your daughter does. I am sure the father would also like these moments. But the sad thing is, you won't give him the chance.

You are also cheating and stealing an entire family away from her. The grandparents, aunts, uncles. cousins. They too, are losers.

From what I am seeing, you are now rubbing our noses in your decision.

You are one sick puppy, GET A GOOD SHRINK

Anyone who has to spend time going thru and finding a few positive things in the posts, should give you a clue. In a thousand negatives, you have to find one positive to justify your selfish intentions.

You just don't get it....Go waste someone elses time, we at Sparc are focused on the children.

'CHILDREN LEARN WHAT THEY LIVE'

Well girl it is gonna be alright, you have quite simply been drop kicked by a BPD. You need to learn how to deal with a BPD and how they work and how you need to work to defend yourself and your kids from this BPD.
A good help is the website BPDCENTRAL alot of helpful resources for you.
I was married to a BPD and I now have a daughter who is 12 years old that is on the verge of a breakdown because of her BPD mother. I just started the battle for custody. It is hard because they put something on you that is hard to shake off and you feel guilty when you do not need to.
I read your words and they are my words also the same life I lived with my ex-wife until my brother came and recued me from total destruction.
I was to the point of thinking I was worthless and had no reason to live and she was starting to hit me and so forth. I thank God to this day my brother came along and slapped me upside the head and said what are you doing you are worth something now get your stuff and lets go. I packed real quick and ran but the hardest part was leaving my daughter with my ex knowing what I had gone through and what she was going to have to deal with. I felt like I was leaving my daughter in the lions den.
She was only one year old at the time and now she is 12 and is ready to come live with daddy so I am fighting for her with all I have.
So I guess with all this said your daughter would be better off without her BPD dad but if this went to court you would have to prove him unfit. The only way you could win is if he were diagnosed and proven unfit by a pro and that takes alot of time and money.
I wish ya luck and check out the website BPDCENTRAL for your help.

Raingirl has managed to completely avoid any response to these statistics. No Surprise. Reminds me of the old joke, "My mind is made up, please don't confuse me with the facts."


You never get a second chance to make a first impression!

And especially trying to include 'logic' and 'how' genes can be a factor.  Truly sounds like someone who was looking for validation for their own warped sense of 'right' and thrives on the conflict, just to try to look appeasing.  What a user and loser...........

After studying probability and statistics at the university that I attend, I have come to the conclusion that it is possible to twist almost anything to say what you want it to.  I used to believe that numbers and statistics were black and white and there was little argument, but after studying, I've learned that even these "facts" are often misleading when presented in a specific manner.  I've been trying to avoid arguing things that are not directly related at this point and saw little reason to engage in an argument on numbers and statistics.  If you are interested, here is one such web site that seeks to present another side to the type of statistics that you have out forth.  Just like it has been stated that there are at least two sides to every story, it seems that there are at least two ways to look at any numbers that can be thrown out there.

http://users.adelphia.net/~enitria/trish_wilson/womensnetwork/fatherlessness2.html

//www.bpdcentral.com  

tons of information

many thanks to the poster........

Why am I not surprised?

You were only here for the attention. Must have a lonely, boring life.

We know what happens to the children when non-custodials are pushed aside. Don't need statistics for that information. Most of us live it daily.

That is why we are HERE, doing what is best for the children. Working together for a common goal.

Why don't you go to someone elses back yard and go play your games.
We have better things to do, like helping parents who put their kids first...
 

Others may have addressed this but I feel the need to.  I'll finish reading the thread after I post.  

"Why do genes make this vital?"

Try my neighbor who as an adult had to find a parent to find out why she was so incredibly ill.  Without that link 1/2 of her health history was missing.  

Try my ss who spent years of his life not knowing what power it was his mom held over his "dad" until the day he was 6 and was told casually by his mom when he was finally introduced to my husband "oh by the way, this is your dad."  It began to dawn on him at 6 why his mommy always threatened to take him away from his "dad".  Because that man wasn't his dad!  She finally did and 3 years later there are still legal battles surrounding that child.  Now that he knows my dh, who IS his bio dad, he feels more comfortable and complete.  He always wondered why he didn't look like anyone else in his entire family.  Now he looks at his dad and smiles because he KNOWS why.  He knows he looks exactly like his father and that he does belong and fit in.  

Unless you find a way that is both morally and legally correct the problems you will have to deal with years from now will cause only heart ache and headache.  That much I can pretty much promise you.  The thing that will really get to you is that you will know that you have only yourself to blame for that situation when it appears.  The other thing you will find is that unless you have that legal and moral leg to stand on now you very well could lose custody entirely years from now.  It may have taken 3 plus years but in the end the bio mother of my dh's son has been told that is what will happen in this case.  In the beginning her argument was because she had never let his father see him or be a part of his life they had no bond.  Many court dates later they have a bond and now the fact that she hid him and kept them apart is the very thing that is working against her.  

Think carefully about what you chose to do and then chose well.  You will not be the only one that has to live with your decision.

NoNicky
For God has not given a spirit of fear; but of power and of love and of a sound mind.  1 Peter 1:6

Logic, statistics, and probability have NOTHING to do with this!!!!!!!!!  We're talking about HUMANS here, where NOTHING is logical when it comes to love and family.  You must throw everything you have ever learned, studied, or calculated OUT the window and consider ONLY your child's whole life, NOT just the next few months.....her ENTIRE life.  Because the decisions you make now WILL affect her for the rest of her entire life is some way, shape, or form.

Emotions never follow any set pattern or course and it's different for each individual person.  NOTHING about these issues is in black and white.  Throw logic right out the window.  And put your child's wants and needs FIRST, before you EVER think about yourself.  And while you're at it, see what you can do about your boys' father as well.  They need him just as bad as your daughter and if adopted kids can find their birth parents, then he can be found as well.  If for nothing else, so that your boys can look him up themselves when they get old enough and want to.

You are right, some statistics can be twisted but did you notice that most of what was on that sight was studies made for the express purpose of discrediting the facts that were gleaned from places like the US Census Bureau & the prisons, themselves. Not studies done for the purpose of proving a point.

Now, here is a dose of reality for you. I live this every day. I have a 12 year old grandaughter who is so emotionally abused by her mother that she was just been discharged from a mental hospital for her 3rd breakdown.

Each one has been attributed to the lies her mother fills her head with. Her mother's goal is to make her hate her Dad. I didn't say father because my son is not her father.

He met her mother when she was pregnant with her. He was in the delivery room & gave the child his name. They married & had 2 more. After the 3rd, she began to run around. He tried counseling. She refused. He finally left because he couldn't take it any more.

He let her have the kids & tried to be the best part time dad he could be. She became enraged & started beating the kids. She knew that hurting them would hurt him .

To make a long story a little shorter, he eventually realized that the best place for them was not with her & started the fight to rescue them. It took a while but eventually, after she sent the girl to school with her whole face black & blue & a bloody nose from the latest beating, he was awarded custody.

Her visitation was reduced to 3 hours a week. She then began the emotional abuse, full force. She mainly focused on the girl, telling her fantasys about her "real father". In fact, we do not believe she even knows who he is.

She tells her how he is coming to rescue her from her Dad & the 3 of them will go away & live happily ever after. Eventually, she tells her that she hasn't found him & that everything wrong in her life is because her dad took her away. She tells the child that if she were living with "mommy" then "mommy" wouldn't have all the problems she has.

The child has become brain washed to believe that she has to escape & take care of "mommy". At 12, she often has to face the reality of the situation & when she does, she suffers a mental breakdown. Right now, she is facing repeating 6th grade because "mommy" told her that if she was really bad at home & at school then Dad would get disgusted & send her back to live with her mother.

This has been going on for 3 years & there is no end in site. No matter how good he is to the child, it doesn't matter because "mommy" is working full time convincing her that she does not need her Dad.

What I have related here is only a drop in the trough of crap that we have lived through at the hands of a woman who believes the children belong to her & her alone. I am not even going to go into what she has done to the boys because it is minor compared to what she has done to her.

Do your daughter a favor & get your head out of your butt. Be the very best parent you can be & let her dad do the same. If he doesn't, she will get over it but she will never get over not having him at all.

You never get a second chance to make a first impression!

No one could have said it better............

Two sagas here:


My Dh 's ex is "dark" and we feel unfit for a mother. However it IS my SD mother and half of herself. Children need to know both parents whether good or bad. They can learn from bad parents too, How NOT to be.

As much as we dislike the BM and feel she cares very little of her own daughters true best interests. But we understand that the chidl loves her very much, and that is what matters most.

We base all our decisons on how the child feels, not what the mother wants. etc etc. It's hard to do, trust me.

Saga 2:
My mother and father divorced and my mother spoke bad of my dad daily. I am 39 today, and rensent my mother for her constant badmouthing. I see now it only made me feel inferior. It didn't win her a prise for being a better parent, just a bitter one.

I now have NO relationship with my dad, and have ried. Perhpas what she said was true I don't know, but for some reason we as a species need to know our parents, good or bad as they may be.

Yes my mom may have been correct in her complaints, but I'd rather of discovered it for myself.

What ought to do is keep things out of court, and don't make him pay child support (if you can afford to) Maybe ask him to help out in other ways if he is willing, like chip in on daycare or stuff. Have a workable visting plan and allow a relationship of visits together. (Keep track of it somewhere) As long as you can keep things civil you might be OK.

If you piss him off you are likely faced with a road of debt and bitterness, and hardball. Sounds like he can play some hard-ball if it came to that.

I have a few friends who are unwed mothers that preferred to stay out of court and it's been much better for them. The father's have a relationship and don't feel attacked by court stuff. Had they gone to court it would have gotten UGLY.

Trust me, what you loose to lawyers, court, mediation, GAL's, and phych evals = childsupport you could get, or hatred out of it, is not worth it. You could go 20,000 or more into debt, and still be fighting evey year.

Good luck.

It is too late to choose who you will parent with.  You will always have the responsibility of maximizing the parenting potential of both parents, and true love for your child will enableyou to do so.  So buck up and make the best of what you have with your fellow parent.

Anything less is not what anyone could call unconditional love, which you claim to have for your child.  

Do you feel your granddaughter's life is better off for having her mother involved?

I am guessing that your implication is that the granddaughter would be better off without her mother as your child would be better off without her daddy.

You have to admit that that is quite a jump. A woman willing to beat the pulp out of her own child vs. a dad that, at your own admission, has never shown abuse toward your/his child.

After reading thru the responses, I have a headache...:)  Everyone has an opinion on this, and now, so do I...

I think your daughter has the absolute right to have her father in her life, if he so chooses to be.  You, deciding that for her, will inevitably damage your relationship with her when she is old enough to understand what you did.  She is not going to care that you did it for her own good or for whatever your reasons are...she's only going to care that you decided to keep her father from her and she's not going to be very happy about it.  

If the man didn't want to be part of her life, fine, but this is obviously not the case.  You may think you are doing what's best for her, but trust me, you are not.  Let your daughter decide, when she's old enough, if she wants to continue having him be in her life....until then, don't play God and mess up her chances of knowing her real father.  It will come back and bite you in the a$$ later...

I'm sorry you had problems with him, but it takes two to tango and now she is both your responsibility.  Just because you are her mother, doesn't mean that gives you the right to decide something as important as whether or not he should see her.  

Your situation angers many people here because this is a forum for parents that want to do what's best for their kids...and there are alot of fathers here that are dealing with women very similar to you, so don't go expecting for them to understand where you are coming from.   These guys are spending phenomenal amounts of money to fight the very situation that you are inflicting upon your daughter.

>I am guessing that your implication is that the granddaughter
>would be better off without her mother as your child would be
>better off without her daddy.
>
>You have to admit that that is quite a jump. A woman willing
>to beat the pulp out of her own child vs. a dad that, at your
>own admission, has never shown abuse toward your/his child.


No, that was not my implication and perhaps I should have been more clear about my confusion.  I've tried to back off of these boards.  I seem to have caused a great deal of upset and hurt and I feel bad about that.  Yet for those who are willing to give their time and opinions and points of view, I feel obligated to at least try to understand them.

I am not trying to sound rude or sarcastic with this.  I do not think it is a lack of eloquence on behalf of the author, but rather myself misinterpreting things, but I'm afraid I cannot understand the point that is being made.  At this point, while it seems everyone may be arguing the same side, there seem to be conflicting views or reasons behind it.  The statistics were set forth as "proof" that kids are better off with two parents, yet when I gave another set of statistics, it was argued that I shouldn't put so much faith in the numbers as humans and emotions could never be reduced to logic or statistics or numbers.  As far as the counter argument to my statistic site, I can offer a more detailed explanation as to what I meant and why the sources for these statistics however credible they may be, do not result in answers.  If anyone is interested in this, contact me, but I'm not here to get into an argument over numbers and figures and saw no reason to consume the board's time with it.

As far as the post that I responded to, I was honestly having trouble figuring out what was meant or what the overall message was.  Once again, I mean no insult to the author, I just don't think I am understanding something.

To draw it out a bit more...it has been stated that kids are better off knowing and being involved with both biological parents, yet this last one seems to be a sudden about face on that argument.

Or was it the point that bad feelings between the parents can result in maltreatment of the kids?  If this is the point in case, let me assure you that no matter what I may feel towards her father, I would never hit my children or act in such a manner.

Was the point that even a small amount of time spent with an emotionally abusive parent can severely damage a child?  The time has now been limited to 3 hours per week but it still seems to carry a very powerful and negative effect for the poor girl.  I can understand this, but as the general argument has been FOR allowing my daughter to spend time with her father, who has been emotionally abusive in the past, I don't think this was the point.

Was it the point that her life would have been better if it had included her biological father?  If that was the point intended, I don't think there is enough information to claim her life would have been better or worse.   From what we have been told, I'd say it was mom's abuse that was the problem.

It was also claimed that the abuse was a result of mom's attempts to hurt dad.  This logic would seem to lead one to the conclusion that if mom and mom alone had taken the girl, there would have been no abuse.  Yet I cannot believe this (as it seems this is the work of a person with serious problems and dad probably did little to cause these) and I do not think it is what is trying to be argued.

Was it the point that if she had not gotten the opportunity to know her mother she would have been more emotionally damaged and resent her father?

Was the point that the best parents for a child are those found through genetics?  Given the fact that of all parties involved, the most loving and caring parent seems to be the one who has no genetic ties to the child, I don't think that was the point being made.

As you stated, I have never claimed that her father was physically abusive towards either my daughter or myself.  Yet I have lived in both situations that were physically abusive as well as emotionally abusive.  Without a doubt if I had to pick one or the other, I'd take the beating any day.  Emotional abuse was way worse.  Unfortunately, this child seems to have been hit by a full dose of both evils.  However, it seems that much of the harm done has resulted in the emotional side of things.  That was something that my ex had down pat.  In my original post, I stated examples of emotional abuse, using children to hurt the other party, and children intentionally being turned against the other party.  Was the point of the post to warn me of the effects on children when these people are allowed to take place in a child's life?  Or was it the same message that has been carried in many of the other posts..."The other parent may be a jerk BUT we still firmly believe that our children are better off for having them in their lives." or "No matter what, we feel it is important and in the best interests of the child to know those individuals they have genetic ties to."

So no, I was not trying to make a jump.  I was simply trying to gain some form of insight as to what it is about the post that I am so obviously confusing.  Therefore, do you think the child was better off for having mer mother in her life?

1. A child learns they are comprised of 2 parents.

2. If you do not allow the other one into the childs life, she will want to know why.

3. You were ask before but I do not believe I saw you answer, "What are you going to tell her when she wants to know who & where her daddy is." And she WILL ask.

4. No secret is safe. Someday, some well meaning friend or relative will tell her all the justifications you are spouting, now, to defend your position & she will hate you for it.

5. If you feel her daddy is not worth knowing, then she will feel that half of her isn't any good either.

6. The point of relating a bit of my family's problem was to let you see the kind of things that the idea of one parent trying to exclude the other one can cause.

Do I wish she wasn't involved? Hell, yes. Is that what I want? NO! What we do is hope & pray that someday, hopefully soon, she gets the help she needs to be the kind of parent she needs to be & that their children need.

Do I wish these kids didn't have to go through this? Of course. I would give my life to prevent it. But we can not dictate the path that life hands us. We can only do our best to smooth the bumps & pick up the pieces & make the repairs as we go along.

Consider teaching your daughter the philosophy of choices. Everything we do in life involves choices, from getting out of bed in the morning to eating properly to the kind of lives we lead. Everyone has to make choices & is ultimately responsible for the choices they make.

Then down the road if he doesn't live up to his responsibilities & your daughter asks why, you can say that You do not know why he is making these choices but together, you can pray that he learns what a terrific kid she is & make better choices.

The bottom line is that you can not protect her from everything in life that you do not approve of. How will she learn to be strong if you do not let her learn?

You never get a second chance to make a first impression!

In my opinion you BOTH made the choice to have unprotected sex, therefore you BOTH make the choice to raise the CHILD TOGETHER.  Its not the childs fault that his/her parents are like this, Grow up and let the child have a relationship with BOTH parents. It not that hard. If you ex has never laid a hand to the child then there is NO reason why he shouldnt be allowed to be an active parent.

As much as a jerk my ex is he is STILL my sons father whether I like it or not, and if he should choose to come back into my sons life yet again, he has that right too, he is his father.

**These are my opinions, they are not legal advice**

Maybe the reason it seems that so many people seem to be arguing the same side with conflicting views or reasons is that we ARE all arguing the same side with different points of view.  

We all have different points of reference here.  The points made are valid no matter where they come from.  Just like a puzzle there are many pieces.  There are also many pieces to your child's life.  Her father and his family are pieces of that puzzle.  Without them the picture is not complete.  

I still stand firmly as I have always stood.  Unless a parent can be proven to be validly and genuinely unfit then there is no reason to keep that person out of the child's life.