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Main Forums => Father's Issues => Topic started by: Brent on Dec 10, 2003, 06:23:04 PM

Title: Mom, Boyfriend Charged With Drowning Kids
Post by: Brent on Dec 10, 2003, 06:23:04 PM
It's fascinating how the biological father isn't even mentioned. Not a word about him.

Mom, Boyfriend Charged With Drowning Kids

By JIM PAUL, Associated Press Writer

CLINTON, Ill. - A woman and her boyfriend were charged with first-degree murder Wednesday in the deaths of her three children, who drowned when their car plunged into a lake in September in what initially looked like a tragic accident.

[img src=http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20031210/capt.cx10112101726.submerged_car_cx101.jpg]
[table bgcolor=#ffffdd width=500][tr][td]
Three children that drowned on Sept. 2, 2003, in Clinton Lake in Clinton, Ill., after the car they were in slid down a boat ramp and became submerged, are shown in this family photo released, Friday, Sept. 5, 2003. From left are, Austin Brown, 3; half-sister, 23-month-old Kyleigh Hamm; and Christopher Hamm, 6. The DeWitt County Sheriff's Department is expected to announce at a news conference Wednesday, Dec. 10, 2003, that arrests have been made in the case.[/td][/tr][/table]

Sheriff Roger Massey would not say how the car went down a boat ramp into Clinton Lake, killing the 6-year-old, 3-year-old and toddler inside.

Massey said authorities know what the motive was, but he would not provide details other than to say it did not involve life-insurance money.

Maurice Lagrone Jr., 28, and Amanda Hamm, 27, were each charged with three counts of first-degree murder for each death, Massey said. They were arrested separately Tuesday and were being held on $5 million bail.

Deputies arrived at the lake in central Illinois on Sept. 2 within five minutes of receiving a 911 call from Hamm saying her children were in the water. The two suspects were on the lakeshore when rescuers arrived and Hamm was crying hysterically, according to one eyewitness.

Neither the couple nor investigators have ever offered a public explanation for why the couple was at the lake. Authorities have said the suspects were not launching or removing a boat, and it was not clear if they were in the car when it went in the water. The couple never spoke to reporters or returned messages for comment.

The sheriff said the car went in front first and the rear end was in 4 1/2 feet of water when rescuers arrived.

Immediately after the deaths, Massey said they were being investigated as an accident. Within a day, he started calling them "the incident."

Lagrone initially was charged with driving under the influence. That charge was dropped last month, and Massey said Wednesday that investigators do not believe drugs or alcohol were a factor.

Asked how authorities decided the deaths were not an accident, Massey said investigators several times sent the car back into the water to see how it would sink.

"Our purpose is to disprove an accident," Massey said.

The siblings were Christopher Hamm, 6, Austin Brown, 3, and Kyleigh Hamm, 23 months. Lagrone was not the father of any of the children.

The case drew parallels to the 1994 case of Susan Smith, who was convicted of drowning her children in a South Carolina lake. Smith at first alleged that a man carjacked her and took her two young sons. She later admitted rolling her car into a lake with the children strapped into car seats.

Massey said he did not believe either Hamm or Lagrone had an attorney yet. They are scheduled to make their first court appearance Thursday morning.

Clinton, a town of 7,500, is about 140 miles southwest of Chicago.
Title: RE: Mom, Boyfriend Charged With Drowning Kids
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 10, 2003, 09:15:18 PM
Just damn :-(
Title: Just read the article at CNN ...
Post by: MKx2 on Dec 10, 2003, 09:28:08 PM
The rack is FAR too good for those "parents."

I echo your sentiments SPG ...
Title: RE: Mom, Boyfriend Charged With Drowning Kids
Post by: sweetnsad on Dec 11, 2003, 06:56:57 AM
They should be SHOT...Just my opinion though...
Title: RE: maybe you should say fatherS....
Post by: Indigo Mom on Dec 11, 2003, 08:50:15 AM
I can't be sure, but the oldest has the last name of Hamm, the middle has the last name of Brown, and the youngest has the last name of Hamm....methinks there are 3 fathers.

-----Deputies arrived at the lake in central Illinois on Sept. 2 within five minutes of receiving a 911 call from Hamm saying her children were in the water. -----

I dunno about you, but no way I'd be on the fricken phone as my children were in a fricken car in the fricken water.  I'd be screamin for someone else to call 911, but MY butt would be IN the water getting my kids.  No ifs, no ands, and no buts...I'd be in there with them.  Cars don't go under THAT fast, do they?  Just like in the Susan Smith case, these freaks had time to get those kids out.

What a terrible loss!  I'll never understand how a "parent" could do this to their own children.  We go into this whole parenthood thing with the understanding that we would DIE for our kids.  Jeez...how sad.  
Title: RE: I disagree.................
Post by: Indigo Mom on Dec 11, 2003, 08:54:35 AM
Don't shoot them.

They should put that woman in a car, dump it in the lake, then pull her up right before she dies just so she can see exactly what she put those children through.  (course, they shouldn't tell her she's going to live) Then...make her live the rest of her life in a cell with the pictures of the kids plastered on every square inch of wall.

Title: RE: I disagree.................
Post by: sweetnsad on Dec 11, 2003, 11:08:30 AM
You know, right after I wrote that, I told my SO what had happened and he said the EXACT same thing as you...Good minds think alike...
Title: RE: maybe you should say fatherS....
Post by: sweetnsad on Dec 11, 2003, 11:10:45 AM
I get absolutely SICK to my stomach when I think of how those kids died...Ok, I have tears in my eyes, it's just so awful...How do you do this?  I mean, how sick are you to do this to your flesh and blood?  Innocent babies, that's all they were...Imagine their cries for help...
Title: Maybe they're not ready to..........
Post by: Kitty C. on Dec 11, 2003, 11:12:28 AM
'Massey said authorities know what the motive was, but he would not provide details other than to say it did not involve life-insurance money. '

The only other motive it might be is that there is/was a custody dispute.  Sounds reasonable:  Typical PBFH, doesn't want the kids/responsibility but CERTAINLY doesn't want the father to have custody, because she'd miss out on all the wonderful CS money every month.  Maybe the dad(s) were getting TOO close to obtaining custody, tho. Typical dog in a manger, if she couldn't have them, then by God, the dads wouldn't get them either.  All speculation, tho.  Can't wait to hear what the REAL motive is.

As for the car going under so quickly, there are ways to do it.  Which is why the investigators kept trying to replicate it.  They're testing to see how long it really takes.  If there was NO one around, who knows how long they waited until they called 911????  But if they left the windows open, it would sink a LOT faster.

There is a SPECIAL place in hell waiting for the both of them.........
Title: Exerpts from the local area
Post by: Davy on Dec 11, 2003, 12:07:17 PM

Mother, boyfriend accused of drowning children in lake

Three children murdered.

Neither Hamm nor LaGrone still lives in Clinton. Lagrone was arrested at a motel near the St. Louis airport where he was living.  Hamm was taken into custody at a mission in Bloomington, each on charges of first-degree murder.

Despite the arrests, authorities continued to withhold details of the case.

At a news conference Wednesday afternoon at the DeWitt County Sheriff's Office, Massey cited a state Supreme Court ruling that he said does not allow him to release information that might prevent the defendants from getting a fair trial.

He also suggested that the case was too complicated for people to understand anyway.

"Believe me, you wouldn't understand it," Massey said. "You'll have to see the whole case to understand it."


Massey said Hamm and Lagrone will face nine counts of first-degree murder with aggravated circumstances. The aggravated circumstances allow a prosecutor to seek life in prison or the death penalty.

Paraphrasing the charges, Massey explained that the aggravated circumstances were presented partly because "the acts of the defendants that caused the deaths of these children was exceptionally brutal and heinous, indicative of wanton cruelty." Other reasons were the number of victims and their ages.

"Most people are going to be appalled when they see this case in court," the sheriff said.


Special prosecutor Roger Simpson, a private attorney from Monticello, will lead the prosecution to avoid a possible conflict of interest because Hamm's mother works in the DeWitt County state's attorney's office.

"There's some significant evidence that we were coming up with in the last 60 days," he said, adding that the evidence leading to the charges came from "hundreds" of interviews, vehicle testing and medical testing, including autopsy results.

Massey did acknowledge that investigators suspected foul play from the start.

"I think we realized early on it wasn't an accident," he said.

However, Hamm's former neighbors in Clinton have staunchly defended her and Lagrone, saying it's "ridiculous" to think they would intentionally hurt the children.

Massey declined to discuss why the couple was at the boat ramp but had no boat.
Title: good point
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 11, 2003, 12:39:58 PM
The male defendent isn't the father of these children, so where are the dads?  Maybe dying a thousand deaths right now.  According to the picture caption, one is the half brother of the other 2?  I don't want to look at the pic again.  It makes me sick.  

Anyone one would try and rescue their children.  Look at how many people die running into burning buildings, not only to rescue their kids, but other people as well.  I think the key to this may be the bf.  No people I'm not bashing men.  The Susan Smith case rears its ugly head again.  She did it because the man she was cheating with, didn't want to raise her boys.  Bye bye kids, I'm more important than you!

Title: RE: Maybe they're not ready to..........
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 11, 2003, 12:47:32 PM
Good analysis, Kitty.  It very well could be because of a custody dispute.  There could be multiple fathers involved, so were all of them going for custody at the same time?

We all know car seats save lives, but I could just imagine in a real accident, where the car ends up in the water, trying to hold your breath and fumble with the damn things.  This brings back the whole Susan Smith thing.  Poor babies.

Let's see what comes out during trial.  Of course there is a special place in hell for them.  Not to mention special sections of prison....
Title: Wow!
Post by: Kitty C. on Dec 11, 2003, 12:57:12 PM
'Special prosecutor Roger Simpson, a private attorney from Monticello, will lead the prosecution to avoid a possible conflict of interest because Hamm's mother works in the DeWitt County state's attorney's office.'

They ain't taking any chances of having a mistrial, are they now???  These people are TOAST.  The death penalty???  WoooHoooooo!  Some may consider that the easy way out for these vermin, but think about it.  It just means they will find that special place in Hell that much sooner.

Davy, if you find out anymore on this case, please post it, would you?  I am confused on the part where Massey says the case is too complicated for everyone to understand.  Just points more in the direction that there's a custody issue involved here as well.  Betcha dollars to donuts that's the case, that a custody fight had SOME bearing on it some way....
Title: thanks for the update
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 11, 2003, 12:59:33 PM
[p]He also suggested that the case was too complicated for people to understand anyway.

[p]"Believe me, you wouldn't understand it," Massey said. "You'll have to see the whole case to understand it."


[p]Oh boy.  Custody dispute?  

[p]Massey said Hamm and Lagrone will face nine counts of first-degree murder with aggravated circumstances. The aggravated circumstances allow a prosecutor to seek life in prison or the death penalty.

[p]Paraphrasing the charges, Massey explained that the aggravated circumstances were presented partly because "the acts of the defendants that caused the deaths of these children was exceptionally brutal and heinous, indicative of wanton cruelty." Other reasons were the number of victims and their ages.

[p]"Most people are going to be appalled when they see this case in court," the sheriff said.


[p]Can anything be worse than drowning, trapped in your car seat?  Were they trapped in their car seat?  This is quite possibly going to be uglier than we think...

[p]close tags...
Title: RE: Wow!
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 11, 2003, 01:05:53 PM
I'm thinking there's something else going on here, besides murder by drowning.  9 counts=death penalty...well it should.  Now why are there 3 counts against each death?  

A theory: the children were already dead.  The car was pushed off the boat ramp, with the murderers planning on just walking away.  They realized that someone saw the whole thing, and they had to change their plans.  Yeah, it's swiss cheese....full of holes.  
Title: RE: I heard different this morning...
Post by: Indigo Mom on Dec 11, 2003, 01:09:58 PM
I can't be certain, as I was getting the kids ready for school and not paying "too" much attention, but I believe someone said the seatbelts were NOT on.  
Title: RE: Exerpts from the local area
Post by: Brent on Dec 11, 2003, 01:21:22 PM
> However, Hamm's former neighbors in Clinton have staunchly
> defended her and Lagrone, saying it's "ridiculous" to think they
> would intentionally hurt the children.

Yeah, parents never hurt their children. Just like Susan Smith didn't.
Title: RE: Mom, Boyfriend Charged With Drowning Kids
Post by: Helping Dad on Dec 11, 2003, 02:34:30 PM
I live about 30 minutes from Clinton IL and was totally sickened when I heard about this back in September.  What a precious picture of those three kids!  Hopefully the case against them is strong and they will get what they deserve!  I know I would have been in that lake getting my babies out with ever inch of my being.  What a poor excuse for a mother!  Sorry, just had to get that out of my system!
Title: RE: I disagree.................
Post by: sweetnsad on Dec 11, 2003, 11:08:30 AM
You know, right after I wrote that, I told my SO what had happened and he said the EXACT same thing as you...Good minds think alike...
Title: RE: maybe you should say fatherS....
Post by: sweetnsad on Dec 11, 2003, 11:10:45 AM
I get absolutely SICK to my stomach when I think of how those kids died...Ok, I have tears in my eyes, it's just so awful...How do you do this?  I mean, how sick are you to do this to your flesh and blood?  Innocent babies, that's all they were...Imagine their cries for help...
Title: Maybe they're not ready to..........
Post by: Kitty C. on Dec 11, 2003, 11:12:28 AM
'Massey said authorities know what the motive was, but he would not provide details other than to say it did not involve life-insurance money. '

The only other motive it might be is that there is/was a custody dispute.  Sounds reasonable:  Typical PBFH, doesn't want the kids/responsibility but CERTAINLY doesn't want the father to have custody, because she'd miss out on all the wonderful CS money every month.  Maybe the dad(s) were getting TOO close to obtaining custody, tho. Typical dog in a manger, if she couldn't have them, then by God, the dads wouldn't get them either.  All speculation, tho.  Can't wait to hear what the REAL motive is.

As for the car going under so quickly, there are ways to do it.  Which is why the investigators kept trying to replicate it.  They're testing to see how long it really takes.  If there was NO one around, who knows how long they waited until they called 911????  But if they left the windows open, it would sink a LOT faster.

There is a SPECIAL place in hell waiting for the both of them.........
Title: Exerpts from the local area
Post by: Davy on Dec 11, 2003, 12:07:17 PM

Mother, boyfriend accused of drowning children in lake

Three children murdered.

Neither Hamm nor LaGrone still lives in Clinton. Lagrone was arrested at a motel near the St. Louis airport where he was living.  Hamm was taken into custody at a mission in Bloomington, each on charges of first-degree murder.

Despite the arrests, authorities continued to withhold details of the case.

At a news conference Wednesday afternoon at the DeWitt County Sheriff's Office, Massey cited a state Supreme Court ruling that he said does not allow him to release information that might prevent the defendants from getting a fair trial.

He also suggested that the case was too complicated for people to understand anyway.

"Believe me, you wouldn't understand it," Massey said. "You'll have to see the whole case to understand it."


Massey said Hamm and Lagrone will face nine counts of first-degree murder with aggravated circumstances. The aggravated circumstances allow a prosecutor to seek life in prison or the death penalty.

Paraphrasing the charges, Massey explained that the aggravated circumstances were presented partly because "the acts of the defendants that caused the deaths of these children was exceptionally brutal and heinous, indicative of wanton cruelty." Other reasons were the number of victims and their ages.

"Most people are going to be appalled when they see this case in court," the sheriff said.


Special prosecutor Roger Simpson, a private attorney from Monticello, will lead the prosecution to avoid a possible conflict of interest because Hamm's mother works in the DeWitt County state's attorney's office.

"There's some significant evidence that we were coming up with in the last 60 days," he said, adding that the evidence leading to the charges came from "hundreds" of interviews, vehicle testing and medical testing, including autopsy results.

Massey did acknowledge that investigators suspected foul play from the start.

"I think we realized early on it wasn't an accident," he said.

However, Hamm's former neighbors in Clinton have staunchly defended her and Lagrone, saying it's "ridiculous" to think they would intentionally hurt the children.

Massey declined to discuss why the couple was at the boat ramp but had no boat.
Title: good point
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 11, 2003, 12:39:58 PM
The male defendent isn't the father of these children, so where are the dads?  Maybe dying a thousand deaths right now.  According to the picture caption, one is the half brother of the other 2?  I don't want to look at the pic again.  It makes me sick.  

Anyone one would try and rescue their children.  Look at how many people die running into burning buildings, not only to rescue their kids, but other people as well.  I think the key to this may be the bf.  No people I'm not bashing men.  The Susan Smith case rears its ugly head again.  She did it because the man she was cheating with, didn't want to raise her boys.  Bye bye kids, I'm more important than you!

Title: RE: Maybe they're not ready to..........
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 11, 2003, 12:47:32 PM
Good analysis, Kitty.  It very well could be because of a custody dispute.  There could be multiple fathers involved, so were all of them going for custody at the same time?

We all know car seats save lives, but I could just imagine in a real accident, where the car ends up in the water, trying to hold your breath and fumble with the damn things.  This brings back the whole Susan Smith thing.  Poor babies.

Let's see what comes out during trial.  Of course there is a special place in hell for them.  Not to mention special sections of prison....
Title: Wow!
Post by: Kitty C. on Dec 11, 2003, 12:57:12 PM
'Special prosecutor Roger Simpson, a private attorney from Monticello, will lead the prosecution to avoid a possible conflict of interest because Hamm's mother works in the DeWitt County state's attorney's office.'

They ain't taking any chances of having a mistrial, are they now???  These people are TOAST.  The death penalty???  WoooHoooooo!  Some may consider that the easy way out for these vermin, but think about it.  It just means they will find that special place in Hell that much sooner.

Davy, if you find out anymore on this case, please post it, would you?  I am confused on the part where Massey says the case is too complicated for everyone to understand.  Just points more in the direction that there's a custody issue involved here as well.  Betcha dollars to donuts that's the case, that a custody fight had SOME bearing on it some way....
Title: thanks for the update
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 11, 2003, 12:59:33 PM
[p]He also suggested that the case was too complicated for people to understand anyway.

[p]"Believe me, you wouldn't understand it," Massey said. "You'll have to see the whole case to understand it."


[p]Oh boy.  Custody dispute?  

[p]Massey said Hamm and Lagrone will face nine counts of first-degree murder with aggravated circumstances. The aggravated circumstances allow a prosecutor to seek life in prison or the death penalty.

[p]Paraphrasing the charges, Massey explained that the aggravated circumstances were presented partly because "the acts of the defendants that caused the deaths of these children was exceptionally brutal and heinous, indicative of wanton cruelty." Other reasons were the number of victims and their ages.

[p]"Most people are going to be appalled when they see this case in court," the sheriff said.


[p]Can anything be worse than drowning, trapped in your car seat?  Were they trapped in their car seat?  This is quite possibly going to be uglier than we think...

[p]close tags...
Title: RE: Wow!
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 11, 2003, 01:05:53 PM
I'm thinking there's something else going on here, besides murder by drowning.  9 counts=death penalty...well it should.  Now why are there 3 counts against each death?  

A theory: the children were already dead.  The car was pushed off the boat ramp, with the murderers planning on just walking away.  They realized that someone saw the whole thing, and they had to change their plans.  Yeah, it's swiss cheese....full of holes.  
Title: RE: I heard different this morning...
Post by: Indigo Mom on Dec 11, 2003, 01:09:58 PM
I can't be certain, as I was getting the kids ready for school and not paying "too" much attention, but I believe someone said the seatbelts were NOT on.  
Title: RE: Exerpts from the local area
Post by: Brent on Dec 11, 2003, 01:21:22 PM
> However, Hamm's former neighbors in Clinton have staunchly
> defended her and Lagrone, saying it's "ridiculous" to think they
> would intentionally hurt the children.

Yeah, parents never hurt their children. Just like Susan Smith didn't.
Title: RE: Mom, Boyfriend Charged With Drowning Kids
Post by: Helping Dad on Dec 11, 2003, 02:34:30 PM
I live about 30 minutes from Clinton IL and was totally sickened when I heard about this back in September.  What a precious picture of those three kids!  Hopefully the case against them is strong and they will get what they deserve!  I know I would have been in that lake getting my babies out with ever inch of my being.  What a poor excuse for a mother!  Sorry, just had to get that out of my system!
Title: RE: I heard different this morning...
Post by: MKx2 on Dec 12, 2003, 08:15:28 AM
So, assuming the kids were free to move about the vehicle ... imagine their terror when trying to open a door against the pressure of the water - or rolling down a window (if they were manual) and having the water pour in ... OR pressing the button to roll them down (assuming they were electrica) and NOTHING happens ...

Don't EVEN want to think about it anymore ... all too horrifying for me.

Yes SPG ... a VERY special place in prison for them ... may they last a LONG time there to enjoy the pain and humiliation of their evil decision.
Title: RE: I heard different this morning...
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 12, 2003, 09:44:33 AM
So, assuming the kids were free to move about the vehicle ... imagine their terror when trying to open a door against the pressure of the water - or rolling down a window (if they were manual) and having the water pour in ... OR pressing the button to roll them down (assuming they were electrica) and NOTHING happens ...

[p]Oh God.  I CAN imagine.  What if they were dead when the car was driven off the boat ramp?  The DA is being rather cryptic.  As he should be.  No mistrials!!!!!  Hang them at the crossroads!  Nevermind, we're too civilized to do that these days....
Title: I think you may have hit on something, SPG.........
Post by: Kitty C. on Dec 12, 2003, 10:25:22 AM
They keep saying that they cannot divulge any info, that it wasn't motivated by life ins., that the circumstances of the 'incident' will curl your hair.

What IF the kids were dead before the car went in???  I know this is PURE speculation, but think about it.  They say the car went down really fast.  The only way I know it could do that is if the windows were open.  And NOW they are saying that the kids were NOT in safety seats or wearing belts.  If the windows were open and they were alive, it is VERY conceivable they could have wriggled out of the windows and gotten to the surface.

The investigators say that people won't understand the details, but look at it this way.  It's horrific enough to think those poor babies were murdered in cold blood.  But if they killed them, then sent the car down the ramp to cover it up, it's not that far-fetched to make that stretch.  Or maybe it's my over-reactive imagination.........

Brainwashing??  BS!!!!!!  It doesn't make a damn bit of difference if he did try to talk her into it, if she didn't have the decency or brains to figure out that it was WRONG (unless she's insane and there's NO evidence of that), then she's JUST as guilty.  One of the two had to come up with the plan in the first place, but they BOTH carried it out, making they EQUALLY guilty.
Title: RE: I think you may have hit on something, SPG.........
Post by: Indigo Mom on Dec 12, 2003, 10:37:24 AM
I REALLY hope we do find out that the children were already gone when that car went into the water.

Title: Yeah...........
Post by: Kitty C. on Dec 12, 2003, 10:44:27 AM
It will make it that much EASIER to give them the death penalty.....
Title: RE: I think you may have hit on something, SPG.........
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 12, 2003, 10:47:48 AM
I have an over reactive imagination also.

I think they killed the kids, then tried to hide the bodies by dumping the car into the water.  Open windows would sink any vehicle very quickly.  I'm holding on to my theory that they discovered someone observing them, and that's why they called 911 to cover up what they did.

Brainwashing?  Who knows.  I'm betting on drugs, she has a problem with alcohol and low self esteem, so drug addiction isn't so far fetched.

I'm keeping my on this case.
Title: RE: I think you may have hit on something, SPG.........
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 12, 2003, 10:52:10 AM
Yeah, but how did they die before they went into the water?

God how could anyone do this to their children?
Title: RE: For me....
Post by: Indigo Mom on Dec 12, 2003, 10:53:49 AM
it would make it easier to "digest".  No matter what, it's going to be hard, but I keep thinking about those 3 little boys gasping for air, then eventually sucking water into their lungs.  

Maybe peanutsdad can help me with this because he's a police officer.  Parents who kill their children, for the most part, make it as "gentle" as possible...I know that's hard to swallow, but parents don't go for the "over kill" like a stranger would.  

Since I know they're gone and there's nothing anyone can do, all I can hope is that they were drugged.  Unconscious when they went under, never waking up during the sinking of the car.  I just really fricken hope they didn't suck water into their lungs.  
Title: RE: For me....
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 12, 2003, 10:59:34 AM
For most of us, we can't comprehend the evil that people can do.  Don't be too surprised about what actually happened to those kids.  Death by drowning would be horrible.
Title: RE: yabutt...
Post by: Indigo Mom on Dec 12, 2003, 11:01:37 AM
Anyone with half a brain KNOWS that forensic science will kick your ass all over the courtroom.  

It doesn't matter what they did to "cover up" their crime, every single thing that happened to those boys will come out...right down to the undigested food in their stomach or the digested food in their intestines.  

AND....they still have to "explain" why there was TWO people there, ONE on the phone, and the other wasn't in the damned water giving it all they have to save 3 innocent little boys.

Title: RE: yabutt...
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 12, 2003, 11:12:55 AM
Of course a rational, intelligent murderer is going to consider forensic evidence.  Think Mafia.  These inhuman beings were probably worried about gas money and their next fix.  The more I think about it, the more I smell methamphetamine.

Actually, I think the youngest was a girl.  Hard to tell because they're all dressed alike.
Title: Latest article in the Champaign News Gazette
Post by: Helping Dad on Dec 12, 2003, 11:13:10 AM
Sheriff says probe complex

 
     By TIM MITCHELL

 
   CLINTON – The mother of three children who drowned in Clinton Lake and her boyfriend have been arrested for the children's murder.
   DeWitt County Sheriff Roger Massey said Wednesday that Amanda Hamm, 27, and Maurice Lagrone Jr., 28, both formerly of Clinton, are being charged with nine counts of murder apiece, three counts in the death of each child, using different definitions of homicide.
   "The acts which caused the deaths of the children were exceptionally brutal and heinous, indicative of wanton cruelty," Massey said. "We have to speak for these three children, and we're going to do that."
   Hamm was arrested in Bloomington, and Lagrone was arrested in St. Louis, Massey said.
   The two are accused of driving or causing a car to go into Clinton Lake on Sept. 2, leading to the death of Hamm's children, Christopher Hamm, 6, a first-grader at Douglas Elementary School; Austin Brown, 3; and Kyleigh Hamm, 23 months.
   Massey said Amanda Hamm dialed 911 from a pay phone at the boat ramp at about 7:45 that evening. She told dispatchers a car had gone into the water with her children in it.
   Massey confirmed that the vehicle went into the water front first and settled in 4 feet of water.
   Sheriff's Deputy Bruce Randolph and Sgt. Tim Collins arrived four and a half minutes later, located the submerged car, opened the door and retrieved the children.
   "Even though it wasn't successful in the long term, they were the only ones who gave the children an opportunity to survive," Massey said. "They were able to get the children out of the car within a minute and a half to two minutes" of their arrival.
   Massey said there were infant seats in the car, but he wouldn't say whether any of the children were found in the infant seats.
   DeWitt County Coroner Alex Calvert pronounced both boys dead at 9:34 that evening at Dr. John Warner Hospital in Clinton.
   Their sister was airlifted to St. Francis Medical Center in Peoria, where she was declared dead at 2:08 p.m. Sept. 3.
   Calvert said preliminary results of autopsies performed Sept. 3 on the boys and one performed Sept. 4 on Kyleigh by Dr. Bryan Mitchell in Bloomington indicated that all three children died of drowning.
   Massey wouldn't say how long the children were submerged.
   Hamm's mother, Ann Denison, said she thought her daughter was "a great mother."
   "She was with them all the time. I would never have dreamed in a million years that she would do something like this," Denison said today on NBC's "Today" show. "She knows I would have taken the kids."
   "I love my daughter, but I have to put that barrier around me because she took my three grandkids away from me," Denison said.
   When asked about Hamm's mental health, Denison said her daughter "had a lot of problems in her life," including low self-esteem. But she said Hamm was a good mother who was with her children all the time, and she said Lagrone seemed attached to the children as well.
   Denison said she liked Lagrone and that he seemed particularly attached to Kyleigh.
   "I wasn't crazy about the relationship only because he couldn't hold a job. Amanda was the one supporting them. So I did not approve of the relationship, but I accepted it," she said.
   After three months of investigations by the sheriff's department, the Illinois State Police and the Illinois Department of Natural Resources Police, Massey said enough evidence had been gathered by Monday morning to arrest Lagrone and Hamm.
   "We weren't dealing with a situation where we had to find who done it," Massey said. "But we were dealing with a complicated situation of finding out what happened."
   Massey said the investigation included hundreds of interviews, with Lagrone, Hamm, family members, friends and others; studies by medical experts; and extensive testing of the vehicle under water at Clinton Lake with the help of divers from the Normal Police Department.
   "We got the vehicle running again to see what the capabilities of the vehicle were," Massey said. "We put the vehicle in the water several different times to document what the vehicle would do."
   Then Massey, DeWitt County deputies, Illinois State Police investigators and members of the U.S. Marshal's Violent Fugitive Task Force found Lagrone at a motel in northwest St. Louis near Lambert International Airport and arrested him at about 3 p.m. Tuesday.
   About that same time, other DeWitt County deputies and task force members went to a mission in Bloomington where Hamm was staying and arrested her.
   Lagrone and Hamm were then taken to the DeWitt County Jail, where each was being held on $5 million bond.
   "They were arrested without incident, and they both cooperated fully," Massey said. "There was no resistance."
   Massey said police used intelligence sources to keep track of the suspects' whereabouts over the past three months.
   "We kept tabs on where they were at, and we had the resources to arrest them at any time we wanted to," Massey said.
   Lagrone and Hamm were scheduled for their first court appearance this morning before Circuit Judge Steve Peters.
   Special Prosecutor Roger Simpson will ask a grand jury next week to indict the pair.
   Massey said it was important to go through the indictment process rather than hold a preliminary hearing because so much information might be released at a preliminary hearing that there could be an effect on potential jurors.
   Both Lagrone and Hamm face three counts of first-degree murder for each of the three children including:
   – An action with the intent to kill.
   – An action knowing the act will kill a person.
   – An action knowing the act will provide the strong likelihood of death.
   If convicted, Massey said Lagrone and Hamm could be sentenced to life in prison. He also said both of them would be eligible for the death penalty, but it would be up to prosecutors to decide whether to pursue the death penalty.
   Massey defended the length of time it took to get an arrest.
   "We said early on it was going to be a lengthy and thorough investigation, and it has been just that," Massey said.
   "Virtually every member of my staff here ... has been included with this case in one way or another.
   "We got some criticism up front because we weren't doing this quickly, and I think you are going to see there was a reason why we did things thoroughly."
   Simpson, a former Piatt County state's attorney, was appointed as special prosecutor in the case because Amanda Hamm's mother is a secretary for the DeWitt County state's attorney's office.
   Lagrone was originally charged with driving under the influence and driving with a suspended license following the incident. But those charges were later dropped at Simpson's request.
   Massey said the DUI arrest was a procedure that police used to obtain evidence for the later murder arrests.
   Massey said the three children had three different fathers, each of whom was interviewed by police. Lagrone was not the father of any of the children.
   Court records indicate Lagrone was convicted in 1995 in McLean County for misdemeanor domestic battery and possession of drug paraphernalia.
   In July 2003, Lagrone received a citation in DeWitt County for not wearing a seat belt.
   The Associated Press contributed to this report.
   
 
Title: RE: speed?
Post by: Indigo Mom on Dec 12, 2003, 11:19:30 AM
Nah, I smell something stronger...I smell crack!  (Mr. B, I swear I will bamboozle you if you even GO THERE....LOLOLOL) I hate to judge a book by it's cover, but dude...did you see her boyfriend?  The fathers appear and sound to be decent, law abiding citizens, while the boyfriend looks like a fricken hood rat.  Sorry if I offended anyone, but DAMN.  


Title: RE: Latest article in the Champaign News Gazette
Post by: Indigo Mom on Dec 12, 2003, 11:24:52 AM
omg...they DID drown.  

My God.
Title: RE: Latest article in the Champaign News Gazette
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 12, 2003, 11:30:38 AM
Thank you for the update!

Look at that time when the baby died.  14 hours after she was fished out of the water.

Their deaths are by drowning, so my theory of them being dead before hitting the water is wrong.  Buuuut, Mr. Lagrone was busted back in '95 for drug paraphernalia.  Big whoop de do....

There is something going on here.  Anyone know if there are Satanic cults in Illinois?  This is really pissing me off.  Ah, no comprende :-(
Title: Pictures? Where?
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 12, 2003, 11:35:53 AM
The San Bernardino High Desert was officially rated the methamphetimine capital of the country about 10 yrs ago, so I'm going with speed.  I've seen it.  It's ugly.  Crack is a problem down here in the LA area.  Both drugs will spin your brains.

Where is the link for the pics????  I want to see what mommy of the year looks like.
Title: RE: Latest article in the Champaign News Gazette
Post by: Helping Dad on Dec 12, 2003, 11:39:31 AM
I agree that something is definetly going on here, just cant put my finger on it.  I also was thinking that they were dead before going in the water but I guess not.  How horrible!  I have been reading everything on this case since it is so close to my town but I cant figure it out.  
Title: TRAGEDY could have been avoided
Post by: Davy on Dec 12, 2003, 12:17:14 PM
First ... info on the 3rd father (exerpt from newspaper) :

The father of the youngest child also said Thursday he knew Hamm wanted to move to St. Louis.

“She didn’t think she could take all the kids with her, but I never thought anything would happen,” Shane Senters told WCIA-TV.

Senters and other family members granted an interview with the Champaign station they often watch but declined to talk to other media. DeWitt County sheriff’s detective Rick Hawn said the family and others in town were intimidated by the attention of dozens of print, radio and TV news organizations at Thursday’s hearing.

***********************************************************

There are huge considerations everybody seems to be skipping over  that are MOST relevant to the deaths of these children.  The considerations listed below exposes the attitudes of that society.

Three different fathers and none with custody...never heard of such a thing.  Children and fathers are not protected by their judicial system.

Three separate paternal grandparents.  I suggest they may have a more truthful view of the hole bitch and the grand hole bitch.  Wonder where the hole bitch's father resides.

The hole bitch only offered the children to the grand hole bitch and not to any of the fathers.  The grand hole bitch would only take the school-age child...is that revealing !!

The grand hole bitch spoken words concerning xmas and birthdays in relation to the hole bitch's parenting skills is the reality of motherhood to these hole bitches.  REALLY !!  

Nine indictments after 3.5 months.  Home town hole bitch with known behavior problems (bu who who) and substantial connection to prosecutor.  SOB boyfriend  from outside the good-ole-boy community that does not look like any of them. Loving grand hole bitch 'supported' moving to STL to live with jobless boyfriend in a motel because he played with the kids.  LOTTA CRAP ! Sounds like the fix is in ... lesser conviction for hole bitch while SOB fries !! ?? !!  Assume SOB arrived (to rescue the kids) after the car went in to the water..this SOB needs legal representation from OUTSIDE the good-ole-boy system (and probably the state) in the worst way.  

Alcohol but no drug problems...uhmm ..probable meth queen !!
 
Title: RE: TRAGEDY could have been avoided
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 12, 2003, 12:48:24 PM
[p]Davy...dead is dead.  Who the hell knows why the fathers didn't have those darling kids?  It won't bring those babies back to life.

[p]Assume SOB arrived (to rescue the kids) after the car went in to the water..this SOB needs legal representation from OUTSIDE the good-ole-boy system (and probably the state) in the worst way.

[p]Davy, you really should take your meds at the same time every day.  You've really outdone yourself with this latest rant.  Yes I surely do know your other screen handle.  Go crawl back into your basement room.
[p]forgot to close tags.

[p]Grrrr. but this post is pissing me off.
Title: RE: Pictures? Where?
Post by: Indigo Mom on Dec 12, 2003, 12:49:34 PM
here's the mother

http://www.msnbc.com/news/1003797.asp

I saw the mans mug on the Today show yesterday, but can't find it on the web site.

Title: RE: Pictures? Where?
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 12, 2003, 12:52:23 PM
Thanks!  She doesn't look like I pictured her in my mind.
Title: My take:
Post by: VeronicaGia on Dec 12, 2003, 12:54:58 PM
She will roll over on him.  She will claim to be the "victim" here, stating he forced her to do this.  She will play her roll perfectly, except hopefully no one will believe her, because the kids were in four feet of water and either of them could have gotten in (or at least tried) and saved them.  

I wouldn't drown a dog.  Hell, I hate snakes, I still wouldn't drown one.  To wilfully kill another person is sick and disgusting and if they are found guilty, fry them.  That is, if the inmates don't get to them first.  Even convicts don't like those who harm/kill children.  

Please keep us updated on this story.  
Title: People with your ...
Post by: Davy on Dec 12, 2003, 05:18:54 PM

People with your attitude and mentality are the reason those kids are dead in Clinton, Dewitt county, IL.  Just running off at the mouth and never accomplishing or impacting any positive results especially for children while diverting issues to insignificance.

I once received a letter from Clinton IL, Dewitt county...adoption probate.  Upon contacting the head county authority I was told "the letter was just a formality to a parent..we have no obligation to even contact you...you have no say".  Needless to say, that was defeated
pro se from out of state.  Dewitt county was just one of four IL counties I got sucked into..the others required substantial legal expertise.

Here's the thing.  There are 3 fathers, 3 sets of paternal grandparents, 3 sets of paternal extended families.  With the gross endangerment of those children over an extended period of time ... do you think there is any chance that DCF had been contacted numerous times and if so why intervention did not occur ??  Do you think other responsible adults tried to intervene on behalf of those kids ??

How much more death to you need to see from afar before you get serious ???  Recently, I spent a week with family ... 26 year old dead.. 4 children (age 7,7,5,10mos), 1 husband, 2 boyfriends...it's very likely one or more of those children would be dead if it wasn't for extensive intervention by GP's...several years ago the twins were hospitalized in coma's.

SPG..you are shallow...roaming the boards with hoof and mouth disease spewing falsehoods, horrible advice often based on assumptions or your own miserable failures especially with your children.  You don't know Jack Chit and you are a detriment to SPARC and all of mankind.  Why not just read and if you THINK you have something to offer simply post staying on issue.   If I was in the same room with you ... you would quickly come down with the alligator mouth humingbird $ss syndrome.

BTW, not that it matters but I have only one handle OF COURSE and I guarantee you do not know me...no meds ever ..
Title: RE: People with your ...
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 12, 2003, 08:24:01 PM
People with your attitude and mentality are the reason those kids are dead in Clinton, Dewitt county, IL. Just running off at the mouth and never accomplishing or impacting any positive results especially for children while diverting issues to insignificance.

[p]How's Penisland?  Sell any E tickets lately?

[p]How much more death to you need to see from afar before you get serious ??? Recently, I spent a week with family ... 26 year old dead.. 4 children (age 7,7,5,10mos), 1 husband, 2 boyfriends...it's very likely one or more of those children would be dead if it wasn't for extensive intervention by GP's...several years ago the twins were hospitalized in coma's.

[p]What's your point?  We've been seeing tragedies like this for years.  1 husband and 2 boyfriends.  There you go.  If this is your family, you have my sympathy and condolences.  If it isn't, may I suggest proofreading your rants before you submit them.

[p]SPG..you are shallow...roaming the boards with hoof and mouth disease spewing falsehoods, horrible advice often based on assumptions or your own miserable failures especially with your children. You don't know Jack Chit and you are a detriment to SPARC and all of mankind. Why not just read and if you THINK you have something to offer simply post staying on issue. If I was in the same room with you ... you would quickly come down with the alligator mouth humingbird $ss syndrome.
[p]I'm on 2 boards.  SPARC and Freerepublic.  My advice is based on my experiences.  People will take it or leave it, as they wish.  If you don't like it, ignore it.  Very simple.  If I'm a detriment to SPARC, I'm sure the management will send me a polite email telling me so.  If you were in the same room with me, you'd leave rather quickly.  I don't put up with little boys who think they're grown men.  Your misogyny is practically radioactive.

[p]BTW, not that it matters but I have only one handle OF COURSE and I guarantee you do not know me...no meds ever ..

[p]I have a long memory.  I know who you are.


Title: Speaking of drowning...remember this guy?
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 12, 2003, 11:44:09 PM


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1039556/posts?page=1

Lots of cool pics of people who won't let him forget!

It's ok Davy. Maybe when you're done weaving baskets for the day, the nice folks at Goodwill will give you an electric blanket.  Just remember to limit fluids before retiring.

In all seriousness, I'm ready to strangle someone, so Davy is really helping me vent.  Thank you Davy.
Title: RE: People with your ...
Post by: Indigo Mom on Dec 13, 2003, 09:36:44 AM
-----do you think there is any chance that DCF had been contacted numerous times and if so why intervention did not occur ?? -----

A big toodoo was happening here when a father beat to hell his 8 week old child named Tanner Dowler.  Both mother and father are in prison right now for his death.  

Social services had been contacted a few times by the paternal grandmother, but no one helped to save that boy.  The letters written to social services were from the fathers mother VERY concerned about her newborn grandson.  

No one gave a damn.  

All I wanna know is...there was a MINIMUM of SEVEN people that could have taken those children.  3 fathers that we know of, those 3 fathers have parents, and her mother.  Seven...it's not as though the 3 kids had the same father and he was a twit who ran away...there were SEVEN "outs" for her.  Yet that sleezeball couple decided to kill rather than find a SAFE way out.  I guess that's what drugs do to a person...hell, as much as I despise monster, never in a million years would i have thought his life would end up like it is right now.  (jobless, homeless again, going from sniffing coke to whatever it is you do with crack)

Come to think of it, I myself have called social services a ton of times, and each time I was told "if the incident didn't JUST happen, there's nothing we can do".  Well, obviously I wasn't seeing my son too often, so of course it hadn't just happened.  After a bunch of unsuccessful attempts to get someone to investigate, I finally said "listen lady, if it just happened, that would mean I F**KING DID IT so why would I be calling you???"

And forgive me...but what's a hole bitch?  A bitch with holes in her?


http://www.longmontfyi.com/forms/commentary/forum-socialservices.asp
Title: Thanks for the link IM
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 13, 2003, 01:24:04 PM
In Tanner Dowler’s case, the grandparents and Tanner depended on social services to provide protection, but the social services system failed once again.

[p]We're from the government and we're here to help you.  One of the three big lies...the other two being, I love you, and the check's in the mail.

[p]Imo, the government isn't in the business of protecting children.  I believe that they are in the business of wrecking families.  Government didn't do diddly squat for me and the kids when we asked for help.  I guess there was nothing in it for them.  

[p]Indigo's Mom, let's look at it this way:  little Tanner and the 3 Hamm children are with God in heaven.  No one will ever hurt them again.  We can balk at sentences that we feel are too light for these kinds of crimes, but we have to remember that they will answer to God eventually.  


Title: Thanks for further exposing your ignorance..
Post by: Davy on Dec 13, 2003, 08:39:38 PM
and providing complete credibility to the essence of my post.

** What's your point ?  We've been seeing tragedies like this for years.  There you go...sympathy and condolences **
Exactly .. for a number of years and the SAD FACT is YOU LIKE IT so you can spread your BS on boards like SPARC trying to feel important DEMEANING a dead parent or dead children with your smallness by expressing your thoughts and opinions.  HOW SICK !!!  There you go...victory in the abuses  of the low-life piss ant government YOU wanted to serve YOU....and so it has and will continue as such.

**I have a long memory. I know who you are. **
What a head trip.  This is your misguided way to take or assume some sort of power and control IN YOUR OWN MIND while implying I have something to hide or you have something lording over me which is entirely FALSE since I can/will/do stand on my own merits .  YOU DO NOT KNOW ME and if you did it would not matter anyway !!!

Title: You are right
Post by: Davy on Dec 13, 2003, 09:36:32 PM
Indy...nobody cares.

I think there is A LOT about this case and the people involved that has not been said but the sherriff's comments ie bizarre; nobody will believe may be foretelling.  I hope you noticed that investigation by law enforcement at the highest state level was involved not just the local yocals.  I'm curious as to who got the national media involved and if it was done to combat a cover up ?  Historically, those small IL communities are very corrupt as is the entire IL. state government.

   
Title: RE: Thanks for further exposing your ignorance..
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 13, 2003, 09:44:44 PM
[p]The essence of your post was a bitter rant.  By mentioning dead people in the same breath as you tried to trash me, you belittled their deaths more than I ever could.  Not that I would ever intentionally do that.  I was confused about whether you were talking about your personal family members, or clients.  I did offer sympathy and condolences just in case it was a family situation.  Davy, your opinions matter to me about as much as Bolivia's GNP.  Would you please grow up?

[p]There you go...victory in the abuses of the low-life piss ant government YOU wanted to serve YOU....and so it has and will continue as such.

[p]Writing in Hillary are we?  Actung baby.

[p]Oh I know who you are.  You may look like a grown up, but all you are is a small bitter man, who likes women as much as the rest of us like bubble gum stuck to our shoe on a hot summer day.

[p]Have a nice weekend.
Title: RE: Thanks for further EXPOSING YOUR IGNORANCE
Post by: Davy on Dec 13, 2003, 11:59:27 PM
You SIMPLY are NOT CAPABLE of INTELLIGENT COMMUNICATION.

Nothing you say makes sense or is relevant to ANY ISSUE and you could not be further from the TRUTH.  Just your typical single mom manipulations while slobbering all over yourself.

You are clueless and very confused.  The dead girls mother is a real woman and a real mother and so are her sisters and her mother.  Her other daughters and her neices would chew you up and spit you out.  She and I share the same mother and father.  That father, this father and his sons all associate with real women.

It was real women and men ...some known and others unknown, that made it possible for this father to raise his sons.      

Like I've said all along.  You don't know me and never will.  But I know of you and so do the real women in my life.  You're that brown spot on white tissue that we throw down, watch swirl around and disappear until the next time.  See ya again soon in your worthless irrelvant posts that are a waste of everybody's time.... just like the multiple responses.    

 
Title: Stand back folks....he's using CAPS!
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 14, 2003, 01:06:49 AM
You are clueless and very confused. The dead girls mother is a real woman and a real mother and so are her sisters and her mother. Her other daughters and her neices would chew you up and spit you out. She and I share the same mother and father. That father, this father and his sons all associate with real women.

[p]Now I'm pissed off.  You would use a family tragedy to try and cut me down?  Davy you're a punk.  My neutered cat is more of a man than you are.  You ought to be ashamed of yourself.  If those real women read how you used a family disaster to try and smack me down, they'd chew YOU up and spit you out.  I know I would.  I had no idea that you would go so low as to bring up a family tragedy.  You suck eggs.

[p]Hey Davy?  Neices=nieces.  FYI.  Hey if you're going to be an asshole, I can be a spelling Nazi.

[p]You're that brown spot on white tissue that we throw down, watch swirl around and disappear until the next time. See ya again soon in your worthless irrelvant posts that are a waste of everybody's time.... just like the multiple responses.


[p]Dude is that the best you can come up with?  Do you preview your posts before you send them to the board?  Do you know how stupid you're starting to look?  I won't back down.  As long as you keep playing Don Quixote, I'll be the damn windmill.  Grow the hell up.

[p]Did you get bit by the Cobra?

Title: RE: What's most mind boggling?
Post by: Indigo Mom on Dec 14, 2003, 09:37:49 AM
We ALL know about many cases where a child was removed from the parents/a parent on BOGUS charges.  Completely bogus, dude.  Lies.

I know a girl who's oldest daughter was molested by her youngest childs father...it was her boyfriend at the time.  The MOMENT she found out, she did everything she was supposed to legally, but first, she moved her and the girls out.  Now, the guy was charged, tried, and convicted, he was sent to jail for X amount of years, BUT...the children were removed from her for 6 months.  Her girls were placed with the state and it took her 6 whole months of fighting to get them back.  Not only that, but she's STILL under social services "watchful" eye, and she didn't do shit!!!!!!

WTF is wrong, Davy?  Kids are being removed from good parents, yet we hear story after story of nightmare parents keeping and then ultimately killing their children.

The ONLY thing I can think of is...just as in "family court"...easy way out.  To take a child from a "fit" parent is easy...removing them from an "unfit" parent is difficult, too much work, blah blah blah.  

Really fricken sad.
Title: RE: For me....
Post by: Peanutsdad on Dec 14, 2003, 04:27:08 PM
Actually Indy,

I work on a trauma team in an ER. But, I work closely with a lot of police officers. Perhaps its my penchant for forensics that makes you think Im a cop ;)

One very disturbing trend I've noticed in parents who murder,, is the trend to use drowning or stabbing or shooting.

None of these methods I would call gentle.

Routier used a butcher knife, the woman out east ran her kids into a lake as this one did, the one down in Houston drowned her babies in the tub. 2 fathers I can think of shot theirs as did one other woman.

None of these cases I can think of were easy. In most it was shown the children struggled with their attacker.

Over the years, I've seen the worst one human being can do to another, yet, there is no injury or pain we can inflict on these "parents" that would be suitably depraved to match what they do.
Title: RE: Latest article in the Champaign News Gazette
Post by: Peanutsdad on Dec 14, 2003, 04:39:07 PM
Perhaps I can explain the time interval on declaring the kid dead.


The most common cause of cardiac arrest in children is respiratory arrest. ie, drowning will accomplish that quite well. Then we come to another well known medical community fact; young hearts dont like to die. Its very common in children after cardiac arrest and subsequent anoxic brain injury to re-establish a heart beat. We frequently will have to end up doing brain death exams on a child that we have revived the heart on. The length of time tells me they got 2 subsequent brain death exams 6 hours apart and pulled the plug.
Title: RE: For me....
Post by: Indigo Mom on Dec 14, 2003, 05:38:53 PM
oh, my bad...I thought you mentioned being a police officer once.  Big Duh slapped on my head.

Anyway, I'd love to be a medical examiner, but oh me oh my...farcked up the ol life too much.  (i envy you and kitty)

Ok, so let me explain why I said "gentle".  I used to read tons of true crime, I'm into all those darned forensic shows, blah blah blah...and while a stranger will slash a childs throat, a parent would cuddle the child while killing them.  While a stranger will choke the child to death with their hands, a parent will place a pillow over their face while also attempting to "snuggle" with them.

I know I'm having a difficult time, but I do know parents kill differently than strangers.  Look at what Patsy Ramsey did to her daughter..and yes, I believe she's guilty.  Used that garote (spelling) but her clothes were all nicely changed into her "favorite" jammies, she was placed there delicately...etc etc.

So, shot #2...did I get it out right this time???  LOL

Title: RE: For me....
Post by: Peanutsdad on Dec 14, 2003, 09:42:15 PM
LOL, Indi, tis ok, no duh's here.

And yes, I think I understand better what you mean about gentle. Perhaps you're right in that aspect, but then question,, who is the murdering parent being gentle on?
Righto hun,, themselves. As they cuddle up to the child they are murdering, Im sure that child doesnt feel gentled.

All I can feel about the entire issue on parents murdering their offspring is alarm and disgust at what appears to be a growing trend. As with any phenomena that makes widespread public alarm or panic, or effects society as a whole, I'm sure we'll soon see a backlash kneejerk legal reaction instituted. I'm not sure tho, that it will be one any of us will welcome. Think about it for a minute.

What can all of you see happening as a result of nonthinking kneejerk legal plans being put in place as a result of increased child murders by parents?

Can any of you envison complaints being used that a soon to be ex could scream in order to prevent you being around your kids? How about INCREASED family court authority to step in if there IS a complaint that you might kill your kids,, can you see being convicted and sentenced to no contact without beneift of trial?

The question begs to be asked,,,How can we protect our children? What if there is merely disturbing behavior noted in a parent? How do we determine that it is better to remove a child? Where do we draw the lines on rights being trampled?

I dont ask these questions in defense of this couple or any other parent who murders their children,, but I do ask,, how do we as a society determine when a parent has become a danger to their children. Food for thoughts folks.
Title: RE: To every question...I don't know.....
Post by: Indigo Mom on Dec 15, 2003, 09:08:39 AM
But it can't be easy or good to figure any of this out.  

Title: RE: For me....
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 15, 2003, 11:32:41 AM
All I can feel about the entire issue on parents murdering their offspring is alarm and disgust at what appears to be a growing trend. As with any phenomena that makes widespread public alarm or panic, or effects society as a whole, I'm sure we'll soon see a backlash kneejerk legal reaction instituted. I'm not sure tho, that it will be one any of us will welcome. Think about it for a minute.

[p]Hey, PD,  you forgot that it takes a village to raise a child)(

[p]Ok, no more sarcasm.  Some folks, who happen to be unequivocably prolife, seem to think that this phenomenon is directly related to legalized abortion, and even birth control.  I'm  pro choice with serious
reservations, btw.  Their reasoning is that human life has been cheapened by legalized abortion.  People have become desensitized towards their own offspring.  

[p]Let's focus on children murdered primarily by their mothers, just for this minute.  I wonder if anyone has bothered compiling stats showing whether there is a connection between children murdered by their mothers before and after 1972?

[p]We can all agree that for a parent to murder their children in cold blood goes against human instinct, never mind law and society.  Our instinct is to protect our children, so what's going on?  Let's not discuss Andrea Yates.  She was bedbug crazy.  Susan Smith murdered her kids because a bf held more worth to her than the lives of her two boys.  Let's see what weaksauce excuse these two latest murderers come up with.

[p]I think we're seeing the decline of modern civilization big time.

[p]I dont ask these questions in defense of this couple or any other parent who murders their children,, but I do ask,, how do we as a society determine when a parent has become a danger to their children. Food for thoughts folks.

[p]I don't know.  All the social constraints that actually protected children, have been abolished in the interest of diversity and deliberate social engineering.  Look, until the child comes out of your womb, you can terminate it.  Once the child is born, technically he/she becomes the property of the state.  I figured that out when they made it mandatory for a parent to apply for their child's SSN at birth.  
Title: RE: For me....
Post by: Indigo Mom on Dec 15, 2003, 12:44:35 PM
-----Their reasoning is that human life has been cheapened by legalized abortion. -----

Sorry, paulie...but DAMN.  Human life is cheapened when a parent becomes so self absorbed that they can't see past their own friggin wants to see what's really important...their child.

-----People have become desensitized towards their own offspring. -----

Well YA...but not because of legalized abortion.  Because they're pathetic excuses for parents, who care NOT about others...just about their own damned selves.  There are BILLIONS of parents out there who'd NEVER kill their child.  

-----Let's see what weaksauce excuse these two latest murderers come up with.-----

The excuse?  There isn't an "excuse" for murdering your own children.  They're sick in the head f*cks who don't deserve to be called human.  Anything they come up with in regards to WHY they did it is nothing more than 2 selfish shits trying to place blame elsewhere.  

We live in a ME ME ME world, full of selfish twits who won't take responsibility for their own actions.  Have you ever heard a parent who killed their child say, "Yes, your honor, I killed my children and there's no excuse for it!  I take FULL responsibility for MY OWN actions.  No trial needed, please sentence me now".  I haven't heard that.

As a society, we're SO concerned with the "whys" we don't stop to think there ISN'T a why.  




Title: The "whys" when there are none ...
Post by: MKx2 on Dec 15, 2003, 01:03:10 PM
"As a society, we're SO concerned with the "whys" we don't stop to think there ISN'T a why."

*****

You're right Indy ... we have become so absorbed in the whys, the wherefores, the therefores. the ya-butts, and the well-butts that as an ENTIRE society we want to examine and find the reason for everything - even if it's a lame "excuse."

For some things there ARE no answers.

For some things there are NO excuses.

For some things there is only ONE morally right thing.

And for ALL things there should be accountability of action ... in this nation of ours are many who question and examine, ad nauseaum, who daily practice their conscious decision of denying accountability in any aspect of their lives.

[em]The above is not directed at any one specific person or group and in no way reflects the opinions of SPARC or blah blah blah ... y'all know the drill.[/em]
Title: RE: For me....
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 15, 2003, 02:05:40 PM
Sorry, paulie...but DAMN. Human life is cheapened when a parent becomes so self absorbed that they can't see past their own friggin wants to see what's really important...their child.


[p]People are being taught from school and society that children are an inconvenience.  Look at how we celebrate Christmas, for instance.  Halloween isn't over, Thankgiving hasn't begun yet, but the xmas decorations are already on sale.  Buy, buy, buy.  
Gimme, Gimme, Gimme. Our whole culture is self absorbed.  

[p]The excuse? There isn't an "excuse" for murdering your own children. They're sick in the head f*cks who don't deserve to be called human. Anything they come up with in regards to WHY they did it is nothing more than 2 selfish shits trying to place blame elsewhere.

[p]Even Saddam has an excuse.  The Kurds were gassed by the Iranians, not by him.  The Iraqi's found in mass graves?  Thieves!  People who kill for convenience or profit, always have an excuse. Hey at least Uday and Qusay went out with guns blazing.  They must have gotten that from their mother's side of the family...

[p]My argument was if anyone has tracked the incidents of parental murder before and after 1972.  I wonder if there is a relationship, as others jump up and down swearing, to  legalized abortion?  This would be a good thesis for a sociology grad student....
Title: Update : Mom, Boyfriend Charged With Drowning Kids
Post by: Davy on Dec 15, 2003, 03:35:15 PM
.
Title: RE: Update : Indigo's Mom, Brnt, MKx2-good read
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 15, 2003, 04:22:33 PM
Very interesting.
Title: RE: The Why's
Post by: Davy on Dec 15, 2003, 04:31:49 PM

Indy/Mk along with PD are hitting home runs.

Here's all I could do to protect my children.  I zoomed in and stayed focused on the children in the face of great adversary no matter what the issues.  I did not ask the why's and wherefore's knowing there would be absolutely no explanation or accountability.  If a situation became heated with a government authority (?) it always ended with them knowing I was dead serious and no fluff.

But then and again, in grades 1 - 6 I almost always had the check marks on the wrong side for Respects Authority along with Works and Plays Well with Others (while being held to a greater accountability).

Oh and Indy ..I suspect you would be a great Medical Examiner.
Title: RE: The Why's
Post by: Indigo Mom on Dec 15, 2003, 09:42:37 PM
-----Oh and Indy ..I suspect you would be a great Medical Examiner.-----

You know, it's been a dream of mine for quite a long time.  But then, I get to live with the realization that it won't happen because I've REALLY messed up my past.  This is a great lesson for youngsters...ya screw up, ya don't get what ya want.  But then, youngsters don't listen, I sure didn't.

But you know what?  We get one REALLY big dream.  One HUGE one...one that knocks the socks off all the other "little" dreams we have.  And I had that already...when my lil dude came home.

So, if I'm still alive when the kids are old enough, I can possibly begin the process of being what I want to be.  

Thanks, Davy
Title: Does anyone remember Susan Smith?
Post by: Wi-Mom on Dec 16, 2003, 03:05:53 PM
Remember Susan Smith (Now residing in prison) who did the same thing with her kids? Her boyfriend didn't want the kids so she put them in a car and slid it into the lake. She claimed the kids were missing, and cried on TV asking the person who abducted them to return them. Turns out she was the one who did it!

I can't believe the same thing happened again! Thank goodness neither of them got away with it..
Title: I sure do
Post by: MixedBag on Dec 16, 2003, 04:12:14 PM
good to see you around.
Title: How could ANY of us forget Susan Smith - pig that she is!
Post by: MKx2 on Dec 16, 2003, 05:50:35 PM
.
Title: RE: How could ANY of us forget Susan Smith - pig that she is!
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 16, 2003, 09:37:54 PM
Last I heard, that psycho pig had one of those prison personals up; wearing a lovely prison ensemble.  SHE'S A SOCIOPATH!  I wonder how many replies she had to her ad?  Oh yeaaaah sweetie, I want you to have my baby! Ughhh, puke, barf!
Title: RE: prison personals?????????
Post by: Indigo Mom on Dec 17, 2003, 09:18:23 AM
Beautiful murdering mother seeking handsome murdering man for loving relationship behind bars.  

WTF?  They actually have fricken prison personals?????  YOU ARE JOKING, RIGHT???????????????????????????
Title: Check smokinggun.com
Post by: MKx2 on Dec 17, 2003, 11:01:11 AM
They had a big thing on there about her "personal ad" -- check if they have an archive and I'm sure you can find it that way.

LOL ... can you imagine ANYone answering HER personal ad???  Defies logic ... but then whoever said that she had ANY of that.
Title: RE: let's rip this one apart, shall we?
Post by: Indigo Mom on Dec 17, 2003, 11:35:26 AM
-----During my spare time, I enjoy reading, working puzzles, and writing-----

Let's see.  Spare time?  You're a parent for crying out loud.  Had you not KILLED your innocent children in a selfish "fit" you wouldn't have TIME to read, do puzzles or write...cause your nasty filthy ass would be changing diapers, fixing meals, reading ninite stories.  But nooooo...you went and destroyed 2 lives.  Hey, I bet your kids LOVED being read to and doing puzzles.

-----I love rainbows, Mickey Mouse, the beach, the mountains, and waterfalls-----

You also like some dude who didn't want kids, so you "offed" 2 precious beings.  Butcha know what?  Those 2 little dudes get to enjoy ALL of these things whenever they want now.  However, I bet they would have enjoyed their mommy and daddy taking them to the beach, or jumping around watching a waterfall.  Hell, they'd be old enough now to sing the Mickey Mouse song.  

-----My favorite color is navy blue and my favorite flower is the daisy-----

Who gives a rip what you like...let's hear what those kids liked!  Notice PAST TENSE...liked.  

-----I am a Christian and I enjoy attending church-----

Indy refuses to comment on this cause, well, you know.....

-----I'm currently serving a life sentence on the charge of murder-----

awwww...po' fing!  I bet that fuckin sucks, doesn't it?  The children are in a better place, THOUGH THEY SHOULDN'T BE, and the father plus all over relatives are ALSO serving a life sentence, you selfish bitch.

-----I've grown and matured alot since my incarceration-----

hmmmm...no you haven't.  You're still the selfish little bitch you were years ago when you stood up on national TV and said a black man stole your kids.  You think you deserve pen pals?  That's what kids have...oops...they won't have those, now will they?

-----I will always hurt for the pain I've caused so many, especially my children-----

uh huh.  suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.  riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.  whatever dude.  You hurt?  Someone who watches her children drown but does NOTHING to prevent it feels no pain.  You're a cold hearted sociopath so bite me.  eh?

-----I hope to receive letters from those who are not judgmental and who are sincere-----

mebbe ol Indy here outta write to Susan Smith.  I'm not going to be judgmental, I'll straight up shred her within inches of her life...and it'll be real.  Sincere?  I can be that.  I surely am sincere when I say this broad is the most arrogant, self serving, cocky bitch I've ever come across.  In fact, I'm one cocky chic and she beats the hell outta me!

-----May God bless each one of you!-----

oh my...self righteous bitch.

I gotta say.  This "thing" makes me sick to my stomach.  How dare she put up a personal ad like this? If she showed the slightest bit of remorse, I wouldn't be so...um...peeved.  But the fact that she thinks she deserves to have "good" relationship with nonjudgmental people who are sincerely interested in her "kindness" shows me she's only "hurt" because the dumbass got caught.  

I hope that bubba bitch in the next cell has LOADS of fun with lil ol suzie smith....
Title: RE: prison personals?????????
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 17, 2003, 05:21:35 PM
Nope, not joking.  Murdering her kids and facing the prospect of life in prison(why don't they hang people anymore?), hasn't aged her a bit.  A fetching piece of bad news, she is...
Title: RE: Check smokinggun.com
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 17, 2003, 05:25:11 PM
I don't know if it was on this site, or FR, but someone posted an excellent article about how screwed up women write fan letters to murderers.  The author went on to say, that if women who murder get any mail, it's usually hate mail.  Go figure...

Look at all the crackpots who actually marry these guys?  I never could understand it.
Title: Hahaha, I knew you all would just love this
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Dec 17, 2003, 05:34:00 PM
Look at it this way...religion is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  She is a completely self-centered narcissist, who will never take responsibility for murdering those babies.

-----I love rainbows, Mickey Mouse, the beach, the mountains, and waterfalls-----

Unfortunately she still breathes, but at least she can't see what she says she loves.

Btw, a couple of guards got fired several years ago for "doing her".  She gets what she wants....typical sociopath.