SPARC Forums

Main Forums => Father's Issues => Topic started by: kitten on Sep 17, 2004, 05:17:39 PM

Title: The storm...knew it was coming
Post by: kitten on Sep 17, 2004, 05:17:39 PM
Yesterday was bf's visitation time from 6-8pm.  He travels in his job and had to work two hours away and could not be back in time.  He called the ex to ask if he could make up the time by keeping the kids from Friday night to Sunday night instead of Sat morning to Monday morning.  She said he could.  She then called back to say that she wants him to sign something saying that she has been flexible with his visitation which she has not and he stated so on Dr Phil.  He said he would think about it.  His attorney is out of town for two weeks.  She called him two hours before he is to pick them up tonight and told him that if he does not sign, he cannot make up the visitation tonight.  Once again, the kids are devastated since she already told them Daddy was picking them up tonight.  How much more can these kids take?  
Title: 7 yr old called daddy crying
Post by: kitten on Sep 17, 2004, 05:23:22 PM
She told him his Dad will not sign a note saying he can pick them up tonight and that is why they won't see him.  7 yr old called Dad cryng and begging him to sign the note because he wants to see him tonight.  Asking his dad why he won't just sign the note and then hung up on him.  She is abusing these kids and there is niothing we can do.
Title: RE: The storm...knew it was coming
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Sep 17, 2004, 05:26:46 PM
She is really hurting those kids.

So, now she resorts to blackmail, or would that be extortion...

At least he will have them for the weekend. Quality not Quanity, can make all the difference.


"Children learn what they live"
Title: RE: The storm...knew it was coming
Post by: kitten on Sep 17, 2004, 05:36:14 PM
That is what I told him.  Giving up 2 hours now could be better for them in the long run, it's just so unfair for the innocents.
Title: RE: 7 yr old called daddy crying
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Sep 17, 2004, 05:39:23 PM
DOCUMENT AND RECORD THOSE CALLS.

 "Children learn what they live"
Title: RE: 7 yr old called daddy crying
Post by: kitten on Sep 17, 2004, 05:42:00 PM
We are buying a device tonight, he told her today that all calls will be recorded from here on out.  WE will also send a certified letter stating the same.  
Title: THE NOTE
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Sep 17, 2004, 05:57:20 PM
I am not medical expert, but putting the kids in the middle and keeping them informed like she is. That is totally wrong!

"Children learn what they live"
Title: simple
Post by: catherine on Sep 17, 2004, 07:33:10 PM
He signs it and prints "under duress" below it.
Title: RE: The storm...knew it was coming
Post by: wendl on Sep 17, 2004, 08:31:56 PM
I agree quality time is more important than quantity.

Has dh thought about signing the note but added that bm is being flexible in visitation for xx date- xx date.

That why your dh is NOT saying he is continually being flexible but was on this paticular weekend.


**These are my opinions, they are not legal advice**
Title: RE: simple
Post by: kitten on Sep 17, 2004, 08:53:12 PM
Nothing will be signed without attorney's advice!
Attorney is out of town.
Title: RE: simple
Post by: kitten on Sep 17, 2004, 08:53:56 PM
>He signs it and prints "under duress" below it.

Not so simple.  
Title: ok
Post by: catherine on Sep 17, 2004, 09:17:21 PM
My point is, there is a way to play the game right back.  Signing "under duress" means that he did not sign it willingly, but signed it with protest.

Two ways to look at it and two things to happen:
1) She refuses the children and demands he sign it without that statement.  He walks away.
2) She gives you the children and walks away with her "prize" paper which would only stregthen your case saying that she "bribed" you by only allowing visitation if you lived by her rules.

Either way, at least it's trying to see the kids.
Title: drama queen antics of a PB
Post by: catherine on Sep 17, 2004, 09:27:09 PM
Typical.  Don't fall prey so easily.  That is WRONG of her, but it isn't terribly abusing the kids.  It's disappointing them and including them in adult manners.

Sometimes, you have to go with your gut and do the right thing without your attorney.  This isn't a capital murder case.  Your attorney works for you, you don't work for him.  If DH signed the note specifying that weekend only, or under duress, then you would have the kids and she would not have had the chance to diss him and fill their heads with lies.  That's called comprise.  It's also called dealing with a self-absorbed revengful person: something that can't be changed overnight in a person.  It takes time.  

What would have been in the kids best interest tonight?  My guess is that your DH picking them up would be the best thing for them.
Title: RE: The storm...knew it was coming
Post by: Raisin_3 on Sep 18, 2004, 07:37:56 AM
Why wouldn't he just sign it?  She was willing to make the time up.  My dh and his ex signed something everytime we made a switch- it protects everyone.
Title: Just a Thought...
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Sep 18, 2004, 08:52:51 AM
Well, first, I would not sign anything without the attorney. Advice given to me by my attorney. Could open up a whole new can of worms.

On the show, Dr. Phil asked if both sides would go to therapy. I beleive you mentioned that BM is refusing to go now. I would follow thru with his offer. Insist that you want to proceed. Maybe Will and his children. They need to heal. I would think that Dr. Phil would do what is best for those children. Try to find some common ground and work from there.

Whether she is willing or not, your family needs to get thru this. With the high conflict involved, it will help get those kids some much needed help.  So unfair that they are put in the middle. Very wrong...
Title: I disagree
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Sep 18, 2004, 10:08:29 AM
"Typical. Don't fall prey so easily. That is WRONG of her, but it isn't terribly abusing the kids. It's disappointing them and including them in adult manners."


Emotional and Mental abuse is just as damaging as Physical abuse.

"Children learn what they live"
Title: RE: ok
Post by: kitten on Sep 18, 2004, 10:28:50 AM
He has compromised with her before.  She has always found a way to use it against him.  His attorney advise due to the volitile nature of this woman and the excessive litigation to not do ANYTHING without speaking with her first.  BTW...it is child abuse what she did last night.  She gave permission, told the children and then took it back and told the children their Dad changed his mind about seeing him.  AND then would not answer the phone last night so he could speak to the oldest son who was hurt the most by this little game.  All she had to do was write down that she was making up visitaion time from Thursday and sign it.  She should never have even told the children until it was a done deal, but she did so she could tell them that there Daddy let them down again.  She is the one with all the power and the court gave it to her on hearsay.
Title: HOWEVER
Post by: Raisin_3 on Sep 19, 2004, 08:07:16 AM
Had he not been so stubborn to not sign it the kids would have been with him and not dealing with it from their mother.  He is mad she did that but the reason she did it was b/c he was trying to one up her.  If ALL the games stopped it would be better for the kids.
Title: RE: HOWEVER
Post by: Kitty C. on Sep 20, 2004, 09:45:59 AM
...And if you and catherine knew the WHOLE story, you'd understand just how abusive this is to these children.

This is a mother who went on NATIONAL TV and said that she saw NO problem taking the children away from their father and moving them 3000 miles away. And that's just the tip of the iceburg.  These kids have been thru HELL.

kitten, get the devise, use it, document her ass and make DAMN sure that ALL this info gets back to the producers, just so they and Dr. Phil can see just how wrong they were.  Tell them that you stuck your necks out on this, based upon help THEY offered, and the children deserve better than this.  Back 'em into a corner and make them honor their committments.
Title: RE: The storm...knew it was coming
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Sep 20, 2004, 10:16:17 AM
"His attorney advise due to the volitile nature of this woman and the excessive litigation to not do ANYTHING without speaking with her first"

Maybe you missed this part. Every situation is different and I prefer to follow my attorneys advise.

"Children learn what they live"
Title: Is your attorney
Post by: catherine on Sep 20, 2004, 10:32:45 AM
Invested in your kid's welfare or the future of your relationship with your kids?  Yes, the attorney sure is invested.  It's all money in their pocket.  Every call (he/she did this, what do I do?) is paying for the attorney's kids college.  

I said it once but maybe you missed this part:  Your lawyer works for YOU, you don't work for them.  You call the shots.  Awaiting hearing back from the attorney while the kids are left disappointed, hurt, and being manipulated by their Mother, is not a smart thing to do.
Title: I don't know the whole story?
Post by: catherine on Sep 20, 2004, 10:37:45 AM
The mother isn't deliberately trying to move the kids to make Dad be absent.  The mother is selfish and is now married to someone who lives in another State.  Life changes after divorce, end of story.  What other abuse did I miss since you claim I don't know the whole story?

Interesting how many people accept that cheating and breaking up a marriage is fine and dandy for the kids to bear witness, but when a parent is trying to move on after divorce, she is selfish?  Maybe those that screw around while married are SELFISH too.
Title: RE: I don't know the whole story?
Post by: Kitty C. on Sep 20, 2004, 10:54:10 AM
Let me see if I can make it plainer with an example............

DH and PBFH live in the same small town.  DH works for a company that requires him to be out of town ALL week.  To be honest, it would be more economical for us to move closer to the 'center of things' in regards to his work, but we won't.  And it makes no difference whether we're CP or NCP.  Yes, both have remarried and gone on with their lives. BUT they STILL have that child as a tie between them.  NOTHING would make DH move away from here, even if he had custody.  And if PBFH ever decided to take a hike, to 'move on with her life' as you say, DH would fight it tooth and nail.  Besides, they've been divorced for over 7 years.  She HAS 'moved on'........'moving on' and moving physically are two different things.  'Moving on' is only a mental process.

Yes, they have lives to lead, BUT don't the kids come first, and don't the kids DESERVE BOTH PARENTS?  In this instance, the BM is FULLY capable of moving on with her life without moving 3000 miles away.  Plus, moving in with a man who doesn't want to leave his ADULT children???  Apparently they both aren't playing with a full deck and don't give a rat's ass about the children or their relationship with their father.

It's not about who's being selfish, it's about who's be responsible to the children, and she certainly isn't.
Title: RE: Is your attorney
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Sep 20, 2004, 11:10:45 AM
You are not seeing the whole picture here...

"Children learn what they live"
Title: Before recording make sure that is legal to do....
Post by: Genie on Sep 20, 2004, 11:21:18 AM
in IL you can't record without a court order unless BOTH parties agree to the recording. So basically the other has to be informed each time and that person has to agree to the recording or it isn't legal and is in fact illegal and can get you in trouble.  I know many other states have the same such law.  I wouldn't trust the certified letter to do the trick here. That wouldn't even come close to flying in my state.

Because of all the he said, she said last time my DH and BM were in court and judge knowing DH was telling the truth but not being able to prove, he wrote in the court order that DH could record the conversations when he was calling to confirm visitation time. But of course then, she just refused to get on the phone etc.

I think this case is not as cut and dry as it seems. BM has a right to move on with her life and find someone else that she can be happy with and be married to just as Will and Kitten have.  I wouldn't be happy about the move to Alaska either but many many people move away.  Going to court to dispute it is the right course of manner here but there is no guarentees that the judge will tell her she can't move. And with the children being 7 yrs and younger, they don't get a say (usually).

I see 2 people who want to be with the children and doing whatever is possible to make that happen.  But both sides can't always win.  My DH's ex was married to a man previously who had a good possibility of being transferred to Colorado.  Yeah, he would've disputed it but the judge would've let them move (9 times out of 10 cases) so there wouldn't have been alot to do.

I agree also that the letter should've been signed but I would've made it very clear the letter would've only been pertaining to these specific dates and not visitation in the whole.  I'm sure the attorney would agree it would've been fine to do.  Just like Catherine and Raisin stated, sometimes you have to pick your battles.  Anytime you ask for change in visitation, you have to expect this. Remember: She doesn't have to change the schedule b/c he has to work or can't make it. It is his responsibility to make sure he can make it on his times and dates.
Title: Catherine
Post by: kitten on Sep 20, 2004, 11:24:17 AM
You must have missed the part where this so called mother has and will continue to exaggerate EVERYTHING to gain full custody.  She has blatanly lied to everyone including the kids about their Dad.  WE are not spending the kids college money on the attorney.  As a matter of fact, SHE stole the childrens college money out of the account that they established together while they were married.  You don't know what lengths this woman has gone to to remove their father from there lives.  You have no idea what you are commenting on.  BTW...what is your background and why are you posting on a Father's Issues forum?
Title: RE: Catherine
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Sep 20, 2004, 11:28:00 AM
I asked her the same thing with no reply...

"Children learn what they live"
Title: RE: Before recording make sure that is legal to do....
Post by: kitten on Sep 20, 2004, 11:32:17 AM
 Anytime you ask for change in
>visitation, you have to expect this. Remember: She doesn't
>have to change the schedule b/c he has to work or can't make
>it. It is his responsibility to make sure he can make it on
>his times and dates.

No sh*t sherlock.
Title: RE: HOWEVER
Post by: kitten on Sep 20, 2004, 11:34:28 AM
>kitten, get the devise, use it, document her ass and make DAMN
>sure that ALL this info gets back to the producers, just so
>they and Dr. Phil can see just how wrong they were.  Tell them
>that you stuck your necks out on this, based upon help THEY
>offered, and the children deserve better than this.  Back 'em
>into a corner and make them honor their committments.


We will do that.  Thanks, Kitty.
Title: RE: Before recording make sure that is legal to do....
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Sep 20, 2004, 11:44:40 AM
It is legal to video tape in Illinois.

This is out in California, not Illinois.

Yes, Will moved on, but did not move away...

I suggested taping for the mediator to get a better idea on the conflict going on. Not to bring it into court.
Title: ..................
Post by: catherine on Sep 20, 2004, 11:49:11 AM
Kitten, I have been on SPARC MUCH longer than you ever dreamt about.  I am now a custodial stepmom to 2 boys and have a bio son with DH.  I was a non-custodial stepmother for 2 years.  I first "found" the boards 4 years ago when BM wanted to move away with the kids.  Been there, done that -  from false CPS calls, denied visitation, denied phone contact, drama at pickup/dropoffs, the whole deal, hence why I have a real soft spot for father's rights.

You aren't the only one who has gone through this stuff and have dealt with someone like Will's ex.  How long have you been in this situation?  You are overreacting to some stuff.  I know your pain.  You need to let the little things go.  Like the note she wanted you to sign.  There were other options and you need to figure them out and work them (with or without your attorney's approval).

Look, she is playing games.  You have to learn to play it back or you WILL be paying for your LAWYER's kids' college.

I had this already posted but the way I do the math, IF she moves and Will gets 8 weeks of summer and holidays, he will actually get MORE TIME with the kids.  Instead of concentrating on fighting this move, you better have a back-up plan for the visitation you want should it go her way in court.

And never tell me I have no idea what I am commenting on.  I am commenting from experience.  Seems like all you want is people to feel sorry for you.  I don't.  You are going into this with your eyes wide open.

And yes, I am bothered by your and Will's affair.  Going to counselling isn't going to make that go away.  And yes, I am bothered that you made a post worried that your ex is showing more interest because he has a new gf, meanwhile you are totally emeshed in your fiance's custody case.  Pot meet kettle.

Title: what did you ask me and where? *nm
Post by: catherine on Sep 20, 2004, 11:52:50 AM
.
Title: RE: ..................
Post by: kitten on Sep 20, 2004, 11:56:29 AM
You are obviously judging us, you didn't have to tell me that.  I don't want anyone to feel sorry for ME.  But it would be nice if people could feel sorry for the kids.  Let me just make one last comment to you, Your "advice" sucks and I don't need YOUR help.  You are such a bitter, judgmental witch.  Your DH's life must be hell.  

Don't go away mad, just go away.
Title: RE: what did you ask me and where? *nm
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Sep 20, 2004, 11:58:09 AM
Custody Board # 3113

"Children learn what they live"
Title: thanks, I'm reporting you to the admin.
Post by: catherine on Sep 20, 2004, 11:59:01 AM
nm
Title: Ok ....
Post by: Genie on Sep 20, 2004, 12:02:17 PM
I guess you don't want to hear anything unless we are 100% agreeing with you, huh?

You are not the only one going through stuff like this.  My DH has been doing this for the 12 years and you have no idea what he has gone through and endured through that time. It would make your head roll just hearing the long story about my DH's ex.  She has done everything in her power to keep DH out of their lives or least so they don't actually think of them as Dad.  We have been through basically everything you can get thrown at you.

I was just pointing out that she doesn't have to be accomodating and switch around vistation whenever he asks.  And guess what, the courts don't think she will need to either. Vistitation is a set schedule. They view that as stability in for the children. Changing the schedule makes thing harder. Since you commented on how uncooperative she has been with the scheduling, it seems that this type of thing happens more than often.  

Has your BF thought about what type of visitation schedule if she is given permission to move? Hopefully he will be asking for all breaks and all or most of Summer and that she either pay all of or a good portion of travel costs.

Oh, and my DH's ex put the children in the middle of every little thing happening.  The divorce states they are supposed to foster good will to each other for the children and believe me, she never did that at all.  I can you tell you it was never considered abuse when brought up in court. The most she ever got was told not to do it but that was it and she kept going on her marry way telling the kids everything.  In fact, I don't think I know of anyone whose BM has ever been admonished and gotten on trouble except dearsirena on SW's board and that is b/c her PB is on another planet in itself when it comes to these things.  Just letting you know this b/c it will probably just get worse if she is allowed to move. PAS is very hard to prove and isn't even really acknowledged in a lot of states.
Title: RE: thanks, I'm reporting you to the admin.
Post by: wendl on Sep 20, 2004, 12:13:02 PM
Report Kitten to admin, I highly doubt Waylon is gonna do anything with your petty fights, come on now, if you don't like Kitten don't respond, Kitten if you don't like her don't respond.

Much bigger issues around than who thinks what of whom on this site.

:)
**These are my opinions, they are not legal advice**
Title: know what I learned?
Post by: catherine on Sep 20, 2004, 12:14:28 PM
that a lousy CP makes a lousy NCP.  PB is still a problem even though my DH has primary custody. The things I've learned the most from SW's is that 1) you need to pick your battles and not let every little thing drive you nuts and 2) you need to find a way to deal with PB in some shape or form, because she won't go away and 3) no one walks away from family court happy.
Title: I doubt it too
Post by: catherine on Sep 20, 2004, 12:18:42 PM
But maybe some people need reminding that it's not OK to name call and throw pointless insults out there.
Title: Wow, that was rude...I thought that was very good advice.....nm
Post by: LAK on Sep 20, 2004, 12:20:10 PM
.
Title: well, you have your answer - I didn't see the original *nm
Post by: catherine on Sep 20, 2004, 12:26:58 PM
.
Title: Oh very good advice and also....
Post by: Genie on Sep 20, 2004, 12:29:45 PM
these battles are not the GF's or SW's battles to wage. These are the DH's children and they ultimately are the ones that need to do what is needed when it comes to the children.

If I were to do it all over again, I wouldn't have taken as big of role in the battles with our PB. It was alot easier for me to deal with than DH b/c PB and I could talk alot better than he could with her. I love my SKs and have always tried to make things as best as possible for them but the crap I have been put through and the ringer I have been through by both PB and the SKs is something I would never do again. I would've rather than that fun person they hang with when over than the person trying to get all this crap done that will never happen.

And also being cooperative and compromising is a 2 way street. And both parties always think they are bending over backwards to accomodate the other and getting no cooperation in return.
Title: RE: thanks, I'm reporting you to the admin.
Post by: kitten on Sep 20, 2004, 02:38:45 PM
I no longer intend to reply to her, she has only been rude and judgmental.  She has been through alot too, but seems to have forgotten we are here to support each other through this crap.  I come here for support from others who have experience.  Length of time on this forum does not give anyone a free pass to kick someone while they are down.  
Title: RE: Ok ....
Post by: kitten on Sep 20, 2004, 02:49:26 PM
First let me apologize to you, Genie.  You seem to be actually trying to help and I think I jumped the gun a bit with you.  Some of the things you said were a little redundant and obvious, but I realize you don't know all the details of our case.  I understand more where you are coming from after this post.  

"Since you commented on how uncooperative she has been with the scheduling, it seems that this type of thing happens more than often. "

It happens more than he would like, but it is just the type of work he does.  The same type of work he did when they were married so she does understand how unpredictable his schedule can be.  Before she got engaged to her now husband, (3 months after the seraration) she was being very flexible because she understands his work schedule.  Since she decided to move, she has been relentless.  My bf does everything he can to be there and usually is, but occasionally he just can't and it kills him.  She should be helping the kids to understand when this does happen instead of bad mouthing him and telling them that Daddy just doesn't want to see them.  
Title: That's a storm?
Post by: cathy on Sep 20, 2004, 02:57:12 PM
No - I don't know this whole situation - and that perhaps is a good thing as it gives a different perspective.

Obviously, there are issues here - but I really don't see this as much of a "storm".  She IS cooperating....it is your BF that is asking her to be flexible and change and she is AGREEING!  

So he signs something that says "Due to work requirement, I was unable to exercise my scheduled time from 6-8pm on Sept xx,2004.  Ex-wife cooperated and agreed to allow me to make this time up by extending the weekend visitation to xxxxxxx"  

What's the problem with that?  It is simply a statement of fact.  If she is uncooperative 50 times, and only cooperative this once - I don't think that piece of paper is going to mean much.  But it may help in some small way to get to a more cooperative stance.

I got to say though, compared to stories I've read and issues I've had - - - this seems more of a very small annoyance rather than a storm!

Just curious - how do you know the kids are "devasted" by this, or even that she had told them that visitation had changed?
Title: RE: That's a storm?
Post by: kitten on Sep 20, 2004, 03:23:47 PM
No, that is only a small headwind!  LOL  I was just calling it a storm because she had not caused any problems for a few days before that and I had referrred to that as the calm before the storm.  I does apear that she was trying to cooperate, but like you said you don't know the whole situation.  If her past behavior and her motivations had been different, the note would not have been an issue, he would have gladly signed.  

We know because they don't want to go back home when they are with him.  The oldest tells him at least once a week that he does not want to go to Alaska and wants to live with his Dad.  He does not understand why he can't choose and why his Dad can't stop the move.  Dad only tells him he is doing his best and that he loves him.  We also know she told the kids the visitaion changed because his son called and told his Dad he was excited to see him Friday night.  If she does not want to change the visitation, fine.  She has that right according to the CO, but don't tell the kids they will see their Dad and then change it on them.  
You know, she has just as much right to move on with her life as anybody.  She married the man she wanted to marry, so why can't he move here?  He has two grown children in Alaska.  He chose a woman with very young children that have a Dad that is very much an active part of their lives.  Why can't they let the children grow up where they have the other parent  and their friends in the neighborhood they are used to?  In a climate that they grew up in?  They will go from a town of about 80,000 to a town of 900 people.  From California where the coldest it gets in their area is 32 degrees to a place where the average temp in January is -11.  Sometimes people don't leave their homes for weeks at a time because it is so cold.  Then they will have to travel 3000 miles 5 times a year to see their Dad.  This will be major shock for them.  Not to mention missing their Dad.
Title: RE: That's a storm?
Post by: Kitty C. on Sep 20, 2004, 03:25:49 PM
You're right ............you DON'T know the whole situation.

kitten said 'She then called back to say that she wants him to sign something saying that she has been flexible with his visitation which she has not and he stated so on Dr Phil. He said he would think about it. His attorney is out of town for two weeks. She called him two hours before he is to pick them up tonight and told him that if he does not sign, he cannot make up the visitation tonight.'  That's NOT 'agreeing' on her part, that's bribery and coersion.  On top of that, she didn't even have the decency to NOT tell the kids about it, just so she could set them up for a fall, making it sound like their father was rejecting them AGAIN, as she has done many times in the past.

What mother in her 'right' mind would put her children thru such mental tourture ON PURPOSE?  If one of the kids calls Dad and blames HIM for something SHE did, I call that PAS, pure and simple...........
Title: Well then it isn't all the mothers fault is it?
Post by: Raisin_3 on Sep 20, 2004, 03:32:00 PM
She was willing to switch if he signed something stating it.  SO SIGN IT.  Dont blame her for the fact that he would not sign and then the kids were upset and crying.

And dont think I dont know what they are dealing with.  I am a CP step mom who has been through more then 1 custody battle.  There still has to come a time someone becomes the adult.
Title: RE: Well then it isn't all the mothers fault is it?
Post by: Kitty C. on Sep 20, 2004, 03:36:48 PM
Blatantly telling the kids that their Dad doesn't want them because he refuses to sign HER piece of paper is NOT being an adult.  This lady's MO ALL along has been coersion and distortion.......and putting the kids smack in the middle of it all on the premise to make HIM look bad, all the while heaping mental abuse on her own children.  

If, for just ONE instance, she had the children's best interests at heart, none of this would be going on.
Title: WHY ARE YOU HERE?
Post by: Raisin_3 on Sep 20, 2004, 03:38:03 PM
You are saying only you can post here for support for your husband?  No other CP step moms mean anything because the world revolves around you?

I am a CP step mom for 7 years.  I came here to read about your situation b/c I had heard a member was going to be on Dr. Phil.
Title: RE: know what I learned?
Post by: Raisin_3 on Sep 20, 2004, 03:41:05 PM
That is so right on.

When bm told me she was moving again she said "You know how you and dh think I am a pathetic mom?" to which I replied "Yeah" and she said her married bf's wife is even worse then her.  I replied "Are you sure she is worse then you?"  BM didn't even get it she just laughed.  Yeah, I think that is funny.

#3 is so true too.  Although we have always won in court it didn't mean we were happy with the results.
Title: RE: Well then it isn't all the mothers fault is it?
Post by: kitten on Sep 20, 2004, 03:46:28 PM
>
>If, for just ONE instance, she had the children's best
>interests at heart, none of this would be going on.

Will has been no Angel, but he has NEVER bad mouthed their mother to them even after all she is doing.  He WANTS them to have a good relationship with her.  She starts the conflicts and carries on in front of the children.  Then tells them Daddy was behaving badly AGAIN.  She told them they could not see him more because he makes bad choices.  And on and on and on and on...  We had always hoped she would find someone to move forward with foolishly thinking it would be someone local.  
Title: RE: WHY ARE YOU HERE?
Post by: kitten on Sep 20, 2004, 03:54:44 PM
>You are saying only you can post here for support for your
>husband?  No other CP step moms mean anything because the
>world revolves around you?
>
>I am a CP step mom for 7 years.  I came here to read about
>your situation b/c I had heard a member was going to be on Dr.
>Phil.
 
That's not what I said at all.  We all have the same right to be here.  I would like to learn from your experience since this is reletively new for me.  I started this particular thread because I was upset and wanted to vent and maybe get advice.  This has been very stressful.  I did not come here to be judged about my personal choices.  
Title: RE: Before recording make sure that is legal to do....
Post by: Raisin_3 on Sep 20, 2004, 04:08:31 PM
Why do you come here looking for advice only to insult people?
Title: You can be upset without insulting people
Post by: Raisin_3 on Sep 20, 2004, 04:12:55 PM
I have YEARS of wisdom I could share with you.  But based on what I have read you only want advice that suits your needs.

Obviously you are upset.  I remember a time bm made us sign something and then refused to follow through the day before leaving us in a bind with ss.  But we still tried to maintain a relationship with her.

This probably wont be popular but we also moved out of state from bm- and I know alot of details in those cases as well.

You dont have to like everyones advice but you should try to learn from it.
Title: RE: Well then it isn't all the mothers fault is it?
Post by: Raisin_3 on Sep 20, 2004, 04:15:52 PM
Blaming her for everything isn't adult either.  BOTH parents have made mistakes.  I am not saying she is a good mother or deserves custody of the kids- I am saying it takes two people to get into this situation.

I also believe that the father should have just signed and taken the child since he believes the mother is so abusive.  The mother was doing him a favor by making the switch.  HE chose not to sign and leave the child there with a woman he is accusing of abusing the child.
Title: RE: You can be upset without insulting people
Post by: kitten on Sep 20, 2004, 04:21:51 PM
Of course I want advice that suits my needs!  Wouldn't you?
Title: Your advice
Post by: kitten on Sep 20, 2004, 04:27:04 PM
I would love to take your advice, but you are way off base with the situation.  And just for the record, this is not an insult, just a statement.  
Thanks anyway.
Title: You see it differently.............
Post by: cathy on Sep 20, 2004, 04:47:02 PM
I'm not saying that she has done nothing wrong - but IN THIS INSTANCE, she is at least making an attempt to cooperate.  I personally do not see what signing a paper stating the facts of what happened as being any big deal.

Now - so far on "mental torture" - - - maybe in some things she has done in the past, but in asking for a paper to be signed saying she cooperated in changing the visitation?   Doesn't go down as abuse, PAS, or anything else.  Other actions on her part may - but in my opinion, this doesn't.

Mountain out of a molehill - - -and there seems to be plenty of mountains to deal with without creating additional ones.
Title: Understand - - -
Post by: cathy on Sep 20, 2004, 04:54:30 PM
Been there, done that.  I can swap war stories with the best of them!

But - it sounded like you may have just been assuming in this case that she had told the kids about the change in visitation and that they were devasted by that.  I can certainly understand that they would be upset about being moved from familiar surroundings, family, friends, and not least of all - DAD!

Again though, it is very easy to get in the situation where you cut your nose off to spite your face.  It is easy to put up with so much shit, that you are unwilling to put up with ANYTHING.  (been there done that too!)  BUT you don't do anybody any favors when you do that and just dig your heels into the sand.

All I was saying is that from what you described,  I didn't see what harm there would be in signing a paper stating the facts of what happened.   Dad would have had what he wanted (time with the kids) and she would have had what she wanted (a paper stated that she had agreed to change visitation - which would have just been a statement of fact).  Sometimes it is easy to get so bogged down in the aggravation, hatred, crap, etc - - - that you give up what you want in order for the other party not to get what they want.

Good luck.  Hope there is some resolution!
Title: RE: You see it differently.............
Post by: kitten on Sep 20, 2004, 04:58:52 PM
>Now - so far on "mental torture" - - - maybe in some things
>she has done in the past, but in asking for a paper to be
>signed saying she cooperated in changing the visitation?  
>Doesn't go down as abuse, PAS, or anything else.  Other
>actions on her part may - but in my opinion, this doesn't.
>
>Mountain out of a molehill - - -and there seems to be plenty
>of mountains to deal with without creating additional ones.
 
It's not the paper that is the problem in regards to "mental torture" it's her bringing the kids into a situation which should have only been between and known about by the two parents.  SHE involved the children and upset them for the sole purpose of alienation.  I understand the note seems like no big deal, but at this point in the "battle" it could be.  It's just a huge mess and his attorney is doing a great job and we trust her.  We have to at this point.
Title: RE: Well then it isn't all the mothers fault is it?
Post by: Peanutsdad on Sep 20, 2004, 05:00:34 PM
Raisin,,


I have to disagree. The statement mom wanted signed indicated she was flexible with visitation. I MIGHT have signed it if it stated she was making this change THIS time. Nothing more.

Anything more could be construed as a distortion of the facts.
Title: Yes, and that is advice that doesn't come cheaply!
Post by: cathy on Sep 20, 2004, 05:05:34 PM
That reminds me, time to put another check in the mail to our laywer!

But just remember - things can be viewed, slanted and twisted in all kinds of way.   Consider it playing this way -

"Judge, I have just been harrassed and lied about so much by these 2 people.  I was more than willing to change visitation - *I* always try to cooperate and let him make up the time when something more important than spending time with his children comes up.  All *I* was trying to do was protect myself because I KNEW he would come in here and try to claim I wouldn't cooperate.  It is all lies your honor - he just wants to get back at me and I HAVE to protect myself. "

Consider you are in court, the judge doesn't know the parties and doesn't have the time to hear every detail of everything that happened.  He doesn't know who to believe, who is telling the truth and who is telling a lie.  And in this case, I'd have to say, it would amount to "points" for the mother's side.

(Isn't it sad that, when you are talking about kids and what is best for them, that the term "points" even comes up)
Title: Thanks, Cathy
Post by: kitten on Sep 20, 2004, 05:06:44 PM
Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.  The trial is in Dec. and he has strict instructions from his attorney.  He's doing the best he can.  Like I said before, Signing a paper saying she changed visitation that one time is not a big deal.  She wanted the wording to be that she has been flexible thus showing his statement on Dr Phil to be untrue.  There are a lot of factors to consider before signing anything in this case.  
Thanks again.
Title: Good point
Post by: kitten on Sep 20, 2004, 05:12:15 PM
She would do that.  We also have some proof of her past behavior so I guess we'll see what happens...

Very sad indeed.
Title: Did you guys tell Dr. Phil....
Post by: LAK on Sep 20, 2004, 08:18:54 PM
that the new DH's children are grown?  I was left with the impression, from the show, that they were young and that's why he didn't want to leave.  Either way, it's not right that he won't leave his, but expects Will to let his go.
Title: Um, no
Post by: Raisin_3 on Sep 21, 2004, 05:38:41 AM
I want advice that is going to be best for THE KIDS not MYSELF.  You want people to tell you that you are right and she is wrong and it isn't that black and white.  
Title: But who appears to be the jerk now?
Post by: Raisin_3 on Sep 21, 2004, 05:40:42 AM
Not the mom who was willing to switch visitation.  The dad who states he wont sign w/out his atty's advise.

A huge aspect of these cases is looking at which parent is going to work with the other parent.  Neither of them are looking too good in that aspect.
Title: RE: But who appears to be the jerk now?
Post by: Peanutsdad on Sep 21, 2004, 06:14:07 AM
I see,, so your position is that a parent should sign ANYTHING the cp wants?
Title: RE: But who appears to be the jerk now?
Post by: Kitty C. on Sep 21, 2004, 10:09:06 AM
Well, don't you think the 'intentions' behind wanting something signed would be a factor as well?  She wanted that piece of paper to hang over his head, it was NOT asked for in good faith.  Nothing she has compromised on has been done in good faith on her part, when it comes to the kids.  It's ONLY about how much she can hurt Dad by using the kids as a weapon.

If she were acting in good faith, she would have OFFERED that weekend and never once mentioned signing anything.  It's because of HER unwillingness to work with the father, to be co-parents to their children, that she would do something as stupid as asking him to sign something... to 'prove her willingness'.  All that tells me is that she is unwilling to act in good faith, that if it ain't negotiated with some benefit to her and carved in stone to boot, she ain't buying it.  Otherwise, she plays people like puppets until she does get her way.

The blatant refusal on her part to even see that there's anything wrong with her removing the kids from everything they've ever known, including their father, and taking them 3000 away to a place totally foreign to anything they've ever experienced is all I need to prove to me that she could give a rat's ass about her own children or their relationship with either of their parents.  Because I CAN promise you this:  if she ends up getting her way, Dr. Phil's words will become prophecy........they will end up resenting and hating her for what she's done to them.  And her determination to destroy that father/child relationship is SO strong that there is NO way she could ever see that.......until it's too late and those kids' lives are ruined by her.
Title: Gotta ask a question here for clarification...
Post by: Genie on Sep 21, 2004, 10:52:16 AM
And maybe I missed this somewhere in another post on this or a response.

When BM asked Will to sign the paper stating she is willing to let him switch and is being cooperative, did Will just refuse to sign it all together or did he state he will sign it if it is specific to this instance only?

I think what we are all arguing about here may be chalked up to lack of communication too.  And believe me this is sooooo hard to deal with and get to a point to even be able to communicate in a healthy way between ex's.

If Will just refused to sign the paperwork no matter what, my suggestion in the future is for him to say something like "BM, I am more than willing to sign this, however only if it is specific to the dates we are discussing today.  I think that this is a good idea and will eleviate any confusion in the future between us."

If this works, then he should also state that she will need to print off 2 copies to be signed b/c you will need a copy.  If she refuses, I would come with my own letter for her to sign.  And of course document (like  journal with dates, times etc) the whole conversation.

Sometimes if an alternate is proposed instead of just flat out refusing, things get done better.  No granted, the other person will not always go for the alternate either and in those cases it just shows they are trying to be difficult on purpose and it is their way or no way.  Oh, have I dealth with that so many times in the past.

And also, since your attorney told you not to sign anything, it may also be that BM's attorney told her to not do any more switching without getting it in writing.  Attorneys usually give alot of the same advice.  Their main goal is to get as much documented as possible to prove their side of it all.
Title: RE: Gotta ask a question here for clarification...
Post by: kitten on Sep 21, 2004, 11:07:54 AM
Mesg# 5156.

She wanted him to sign something saying she has been flexible with the visitaion.  Period.  He said on Dr. Phil that she has not.  She is looking for something to make him look bad in court.  She wants to be able to say he lied on Dr. Phil because now she has a peice of paper that says otherwise.  She is not doing this for the kids, she is doing it to support her case against their father so that she will get permission to move them 3000 miles away.    You are right, he could have made sure the paper was specific in regards to the date, but this is a very emotionally charged situation and they do not communicate well at all.  Her only motivation in life is to move the children away.  So that she can "move on".  
Title: It's OK..we all get stressed by these situations....
Post by: Genie on Sep 21, 2004, 11:09:10 AM
and I know that sometimes it seems that there are many people ganging up on you.  On these boards sometimes it is very hard to get the wording out correctly when trying to give advice. B/c others can't "hear" the tone of our voices as we are writing, words come off as differently than what was intended.

My advise to you on this whole situation is to step back just a little bit.  I know it is very hard to do b/c it took me many many years to be able to do that.  We call it disengaging.  Now you don't have to say you are out of it totally, but you also can't let it succomb your whole life while you are going through court battles etc.   My life the last couple years has been quite peaceful b/c it hasn't been a constant struggle and battle with PB and the SKids.  Now we haven't seen them as much either which is upsetting but the stress level is way way down.  But recently things have been happening that is making it worse again and I can just feel the stress and muscle tightening and my brain working and the being restless and sleepless etc at the mention of her name or what she has done or what she is trying to do now.  It can burn you out really quick and be a relationship killer.  I'm sure neither of you want to go through another divorce so you need to be able to support him in a healthy way without it affecting you, your life and your sleep.  There are some that it affects them so much that they are sick to their stomaches. Don't want that and don't want this to be the only thing that you think about or discuss either.

So I have no idea how this is going to turn out at all.  Except for alienation of the children (which the courts really don't do much about anyways), I don't see alot that shows she is the worse parent if you think about it on the courts side of things.  This is just bad all around. It is no win - both sides will lose something no matter the solution.  

Now, if she is told she can't move the kids, what do you think she will do? Will she give you custody?  Will she not move at all? Do you think her husband would then move here?

And what is Will's plan on visitation and transportation if she is allowed to move? Also have to think about phone contact with them and it would be a good idea to request counciling for the children to adjust to the move.

If you ever want to vent off board, let me know and I can give you may email address.
Title: This is about control
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Sep 21, 2004, 12:26:33 PM
What is eating at her is the close, loving bond they have with their father.

Stick as close to the CO as he can. Do not engage in a "battle of words". This will get to her fast.

When I pick up my son and drop him off. I say nothing. I am there to get my son. She stands in the yard with her hands on her hips, fuming, and grabs the phone. She  likes having the last word. And it gets to her that my son loves me and we have a very close bond. I refuse to let her get the upper hand and initiate an arguement. Unless it is directly related to my son, I just walk away.

Sometimes, Silence is Golden...

"Children learn what they live"
Title: RE: This is about control
Post by: sweetnsad on Sep 21, 2004, 01:04:28 PM
My SO does that too.....just walks away.  When he picks his kids up, he says nothing.  The children pretty much maul him to death when they see him...they get so excited!  And, it just kills her!

Good advice....follow the CO...then, there can't be any discrepancies.
Title: RE: This is about control
Post by: joni on Sep 21, 2004, 01:18:48 PM

yes, you don't want to set a precedent for deviation, after that, it makes it difficult for any party to be held in contempt.
Title: you hit the nail on the head Kitty...........nm
Post by: joni on Sep 21, 2004, 01:20:23 PM
.
Title: RE: This is about control
Post by: kitten on Sep 21, 2004, 01:27:20 PM
Yes.
He does remain silent at pick up/drop off.  The deal was that he stays in the vehicle and she stays in the house or on the porch.  She has many times tried to approach him and engage him in conflict.  He tells her to please call him later if she needs to discuss the children.  He has had to bring a video camera to stop her from acting up in front of the kids.  So far, it is working.  I'm sure she will slip up soon, she can't help herself.
Title: No,
Post by: Raisin_3 on Sep 22, 2004, 07:37:00 PM
My opinion is that they should both grow up and do what is right for the child.  DO NOT come here and talk about how terrible the mom plays games when dad has done the same.  Mom was willing to make a switch.  To sign a piece of paper that the judge probably would not have even looked at would have meant time w/ his child.  He instead wanted to 'show her' and said not w/out consulting his atty so he did not see his child who then became upset.  Was it worth it?  What is more important- spending time w/ your child or one upping the other parent?
Title: Come on now!
Post by: Raisin_3 on Sep 22, 2004, 07:42:34 PM
In a situation that the family goes on national TV you think the mom should have 'offered it up' w/ no proof or verification of the switch?

My dh's situation isn't even nasty and we still make bm send us an e-mail or sign a letter w/ any switches confirming it.

I am not talking about the rest of the situation (regarding the move).  I am talking about THIS situation where they are here claiming bm is evil b/c she would not make the switch when they are partly to blame.  My guess is if everyone owned up to their part in making this a bad situation it may get better.  It is apparent bm isn't going to and from the posts I have read here kitten doesn't feel they have done anything wrong.  It is always easier to blame the other person rather then look at what you have done to escalate the situation.
Title: RE: It's OK..we all get stressed by these situations....
Post by: teakae on Sep 23, 2004, 01:01:58 AM
>My advise to you on this whole situation is to step back just
>a little bit.  I know it is very hard to do b/c it took me
>many many years to be able to do that.  We call it
>disengaging.  Now you don't have to say you are out of it
>totally, but you also can't let it succomb your whole life
>while you are going through court battles etc.   My life the
>last couple years has been quite peaceful b/c it hasn't been a
>constant struggle and battle with PB and the SKids.  Now we
>haven't seen them as much either which is upsetting but the
>stress level is way way down.  

I also find myself totaly caught up in the daily battles with the situation involving my SO's ex and kids. Easier said than done though. We try really hard to just have our own time to ourselves and not worry or think about her and the kids. Then she calls him or shows up at the door with this that or other  or has one of the kids call him to say something (basically relay HER message). Then we are thrown head first in to the turmoil of things and it is really hard for us to stop stressing and worrying about it for hours afterwards. The bullets just keep coming and even though we try to pick our battles, its tough on us emotionally. We DO try to let the petty things go and let her "win" if the end result is him getting more time with the kids. Even if in our heads we know that is good in the long run, it is still tough "losing" and letting her think she has the upper hand.

But that is just OUR feelings being hurt.  Taking the "high road" and making effort to come out "smelling like roses" is only worth it if we can spare the kids from hurt in the end.  We keep having to say to ourselves that we are "letting" her do this one instance of abuse in order to keep her from doing hundred other things in the future. Just like what kitten described. Our ex tells the kids "daddy doesn't want to see you" when in fact she is the one that made it impossible for him to see them. I know my SO is filled with rage when he hears his little girl cry on the phone "daddy, why didn't you come pick me up.." No amount of explaining that he DOES love her is going to take away those hours of pain that his daughter already suffered. So how many of these "one" instances should we allow?

With the legal battle dragging on for months, we are really afraid that the kids will just lose faith in their dad. Too many missed appointments or so they are led to believe, must be damaging to the kids psyches. How many times is too many? How many times does daddy have to "give in" to mommy's unreasonable demands against the children's wishes in order to do the "right thing"?  Even the police came and told them they had to go with their mommy. Teachers telling them they  need to go with their mommy. And they just see daddy doing nothing to stand up for them even if they are pleading to go with daddy? The boy 10yrs old, said to me once "I wish I could have my birthday with daddy next year, but I know... (as if to stop my objection) he won't get me next year.  I know mommy will get us all the time because mommy always gets her way..."

I don't know. All this turmoil because of this one woman who chooses to only think of herself and her feelings. I swear, if my SO is given anything less than 50/50 in court, he will seriously consider killing her himself. He is at the point where he thinks a foster family will be better than what he and his ex is putting the kids through.

Title: Man, you just DON'T get it, do you?????
Post by: Kitty C. on Sep 23, 2004, 07:43:25 AM
I'm certain that if the situation was different, Will would have signed in a heartbeat.  But the REASON FOR NOT SIGNING was based on TWO things:  BM's history up to that point and advice from his atty. (based on BM's history).

Tell me this........could you have GUARANTEED that he would have gotten the kids even if he had signed????  NO.  Because the BM's history proves that she weasels on him, getting him to do what SHE wants, then screwing him over, implying to the kids that "Daddy doesn't care about you.'  Kitten was absolutely right....with her history, the ONLY reason why she wanted Will to sign that document was to get HER off the hook for what he said on the show.  If what he had said about her not being flexible were NOT true, she wouldn't be going to these lengths to prove it otherwise.  It's ALL and ONLY about her....always has been.

To tell you the truth, Will would have been screwed either way.  Obviously, from your viewpont, he's screwed for NOT signing....and with her history and her vendetta against him, he would have been screwed if he DID.

It's called a rock and a hard place.............ever been there????  Sure doesn't sound like it, not with young lives on the line to boot..........
Title: There will be more of this to come
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Sep 23, 2004, 08:52:33 AM
I was wondering what the repercussions(sp?) of of appearing on Dr. Phil's show would be.

Your husband cannot sign anything that basically states that he lied.  She is a piece of work,  but you already know that.  Hang tight until the lawyer gets back.
Title: Bitch (eom)
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Sep 23, 2004, 08:55:23 AM
Well, she is....
Title: He can't sign it
Post by: StPaulieGirl on Sep 23, 2004, 09:00:53 AM
If he signs it, he perjures himself!!!  Pretty neat, yeah?
Title: RE: It's OK..we all get stressed by these situations....
Post by: kitten on Sep 23, 2004, 09:19:12 AM
That is EXACTLY it.  You have described what we go through perfectly by just describing your own situation.  
Title: RE: He can't sign it
Post by: kitten on Sep 23, 2004, 09:28:33 AM
YES.  And she is USING her own children to persue perjury against him.
Title: Vendetta?
Post by: Raisin_3 on Sep 23, 2004, 03:45:43 PM
I think both parents have one against the other.  After going to court he says NO to them going into Canada after the judge allowed it?  If a women did that she would be a PB.

None of us know what would have happened if he had signed the paper but we do know what happened b/c he refused to.

Dh and I have been through 3 courts battles with bm and one with his mother.  I know all about how hard it is.  Our first battle went similar to kittens now- w/ CPS always called (by her on us), lies, lies, lies, allegations, etc.  I am truly speaking from my heart in saying people need to grow up and work together.  People keep saying she wont do this or that but until he makes the first step to being an adult he is no better.  The games wont stop.  It is so easy to continue the cycle rather then stop and see what is best for everyone.
Title: That's because................
Post by: Kitty C. on Sep 23, 2004, 03:51:47 PM
...he's gone from trying to be the adult to CYA, just for self-preservation of his relationship with his kids.  It takes two to tango and he HAS tried, many times, to be the bigger person.  Unfortunately, she is the type of person who will take advantage and exploit it........and the end result is that he and the kids get shit on....AGAIN.

Go and ask the BM to stop..I seriously doubt she's going to listen to you anymore than she listened to Dr. Phil.
Title: RE: Vendetta?
Post by: kitten on Sep 23, 2004, 04:09:41 PM
She was allowed to FLY to ALASKA by misrepresentation to the judge.  She lied about already having plane tickets which she did not.  BF considers her a flight risk and that is why he said no to border patrol.  She has already moved most of their belongings to AK not even knowing if she will get permission to move them or not.  They have very little of their things left at bm's house in CA.  They are living out of boxes.  BM even sent their cat to AK already.