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Main Forums => Father's Issues => Topic started by: RainGirl on Sep 18, 2004, 12:05:31 AM

Title: Getting baby used to dad - Need help!
Post by: RainGirl on Sep 18, 2004, 12:05:31 AM
My daughter and ex had very little contact up until a few weeks ago.  She is now 8 months old.  She is normally a very happy, friendly, outgoing baby.  He came around and she was okay with seeing him and playing a bit, but was still unhappy if I left the room and would crawl after me or sometimes would decide she didn't want him anymore and would cry for me.  Her dad was frustrated by this and said it was hard for her to get used to him with me around.  I wasn't comfortable letting him just take her until I knew she was okay with him, so I sugguested that he visit her at her daycare.  It was a friendly and familiar environment where she couldn't be "tempted" away by me.

He said it sounded good and I took him over to meet her teachers.  He told them he was going to be by two mornings a week, during the breaks he had in his schedule.  We also agreed to let him come by the house two nights a week to visit, one night I would leave but my older boy would be here.  Eventually once she was comfortable with him, he could take her on his own.  He agreed to these conditions and offered no complaints, but since then, keeps asking if he can take her.  Yet he repeatedly passes by opportunities to visit her at school and "forgets" and makes plans over times when he was supposed to visit her at the house.  He kept bugging about taking her on his own a couple of days ago and I stuck firm, telling him she needed time to get used to him.

Yes,  I heard you guys in my head, saying I was trying to control the situation, she was his child too, etc.  I began to wonder if I was being too protective and should ease up.  I was growing discouraged with his constant asking if he could take her yet, despite not making any of the attempts to make her comfortable that he originally agreed to.  It seemed like he wanted to take her to show off to people (which I can understand) and enjoy the fun part of parenting, but wasn't willing to put the time and effort into it that would make her comfortable.

Finally, he asked if she would be at her school yesterday.  I told him she would and was impressed that he was finally going to do something good for her.  It seemed so out of character for him and I wondered if he planned on taking his girlfriend with him, and was therefore hoping to show her off and there was something in it for him!  When I went to pick her up that afternoon, her teacher said yes, THEY had come by to visit.  If I had any doubts about having overreacted or being too controlling, they quickly vanished.  My daughter wanted nothing to do with him. He tried to hold her and she screamed and was frantic until he put her down at which point, she clung to her teacher, casting worried looks at him and screaming if he came closer to her.

She was very clingy that night and woke screaming several times, but she has been getting a bit of a cold and I thought maybe she wasn't feeling as perky as normal.

I dropped her off at school today and when I went to class, asked my instructor (Infant Development) why she would be so different at home.  She explained that home and Mom are an extreme sense of security for her and she can handle more stressful situations.  Yet school is less secure (even though she does great with her teachers) therefore, the threats are taken far more seriously.

I got out of class (2 hours after dropping her off) ad was headed to work when her daycare called me and asked me to come pick her up.  I figured she was getting sick but when I arrived, they said she was really upset and hysterical anytime someone she did not know walked through the door.  Her teachers are both well educated people with Master's degrees in childhood education and were very concerned about her behavior.  They said they would have to talk to her dad about letting her come to him instead of going over and picking her up again since it had obviously affected her so much.  He needed to take his time and slow things down before she associated him with being distressed and scared.

My problem is that he keeps pushing to take her.  I feel terrible that she is so upset and now after one visit, her school, the safe place she spends her days, is a place where she is distressed everytime the door opens.  I'm assuming this is only temporary, but he doesn't seem to understand.  I don't want to come across as trying to keep her from him, but how do I make him understand he needs to take his time?  How do I help her adjust to him when he won't put the time in that she seems to need?  She seems to do okay with him (lets him hold her and all) when she is near me, but he complains that she isn't going to get used to him while I'm around.  How can I make things go easier on her?  Are there tricks that anyone knows that will help ease the transition and warm her up to him faster?  My baby is hurting.  Please help!
Title: RE: Getting baby used to dad - Need help!
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Sep 18, 2004, 02:01:27 PM
Glad you had a change of heart. This is going to take time and he will have to allow her time to adjust. He is a stranger right now. It has only been a few weeks.

She might react better if you are present when he comes to visit. Once she understands that you are okay with him being there, she will come around.

I think it's important to keep the contact going. An hour or two every few days might be a good idea. Ask the teachers if they can recommend something that would help the situation. You might even think about talking with the therapist on the best way to approach this.

As long as you both keep her best interests at the forefront, it will work out.

The important thing here, is you took a very important first step...

"Children learn what they live"
Title: RE: Getting baby used to dad - Need help!
Post by: wendl on Sep 18, 2004, 02:59:40 PM
I couldn't agree more.

Also if the baby feels your tension it will makes this harder.

Try to be as relaxed as you can be (I know its hard)

Maybe dad also has some tension, I know little ones can feel it, example I really dislike my grandmother, when I had my son he would go to anyone EXCEPT my grandma (we were all in the same room) the minure anyone else took him away from my grandma he was fine, so you may want to talk to your ex about this as well.

:)

**These are my opinions, they are not legal advice**
Title: RE: Getting baby used to dad - Need help!
Post by: TGB on Sep 19, 2004, 07:44:41 AM
You dropped her off with total strangers the first day of day care, but won't let her go with her dad.

Yes, the child may be upset at being separated from familiar situations, but you will only make it worse by showing the child that you are uncomfortable leaving her with daddy. Realize that children at this age don't have much experience, but they are as intelligent or perhaps even more intelligent than adults. Everything she knows she learned by watching you. She is an expert at reading your emotions. Many children, even this young, are also experts at manipulating their parents in order to get what they want. It's your job to be the adult and make the right decisions.

If your daughter isn't comfortable with dad, or if dad isn't comfortable with her, then it's a sign that they need to spend MORE time together, not less.

What you are doing is showing everyone, including your daughter, that dad is someone to be afraid of, who is not to be trusted as much as those girls making minimum wage to take care of her at the day care. You are making it clear that she's your baby, not his, and that he is a second class parent who is only allowed to be a parent at your whim.

I have no sympathy for parents who leave their child with total strangers day after day for hours at a time in day care but won't let the dad have a few hours alone with the child. I do have a lot of sympathy for the children of these parents. Your daughter will never have a truly meaningful relationship with her dad if you keep this up. Statistically, if the father doesn't get involved in the child's life before she is two, it's unlikely that he will ever be more than an occasional visitor.

See http://www.deltabravo.net/files/headstart.pdf
Title: RE: Getting baby used to dad - Need help!
Post by: RainGirl on Sep 20, 2004, 05:51:34 AM
>She might react better if you are present when he comes to
>visit. Once she understands that you are okay with him being
>there, she will come around.

She's done great with this so far and I have tried to point out how much better she is doing with him, how the amounts of time she will spend with him before wanting to return to me are getting longer and longer, and things like that.  I have tried telling him that these things take time and she is progressing well, but he still seems frustrated.  I keep stressing the fact that she will not get used to him if he doesn't spend the time with her and after he missed his visit on Saturday, we (my boys and I) trashed our Sunday plans so he could make the time up.

I think he held grand images of what parenting was like and this isn't it so he is frustrated.  I don't think he intends to rush things or fail to do what is good for her, but he simply seems to be blind (perhaps lack of insight or experience) to how kids are.  He wants to show her off and have people fawn over her and seems to think that would be great fun and to him, that seems to be what parenting an infant is about, simply the image he holds in his mind.  I don't think he has a true concept of the work involved or that bonds do not come with the genes.  How can I help him understand that building trust is important if he wants to get to those fun parts of parenting?

>
>I think it's important to keep the contact going. An hour or
>two every few days might be a good idea. Ask the teachers if
>they can recommend something that would help the situation.
>You might even think about talking with the therapist on the
>best way to approach this.
>

Her school actually has a child pyschologist available and I have thought about setting up a meeting with her. She is good with issues of separation anxiety and things of that nature and would probably be able to think of a few tricks that would help the adjustment go smoother.

Thank you for your encouragment by the way!
Title: RE: Getting baby used to dad - Need help!
Post by: RainGirl on Sep 20, 2004, 06:11:11 AM
As I said, she does great with him while I am there.  She will play with him for a bit and then returns to me for a while then ventures out to play again.  It's normal infant behavior, exploring their environment (including the people in it) then returning to mom for emotional "refueling", a quick security check, and they are off and playing again.  He just gets frustrated that she returns to me.  The amounts of time she spends away are increasing and I have tried to point that out, but if he is holding her when it comes time to refuel, she cries to get to me and I think he feels kind of offended by that.  It all seems normal to me and something that will take time but he does not seem to understand that.  So he rushes things.  When he rushes things, he scares her.  Right now he has a pattern of showing up for the more entertaining visits or times when he can show her off but neglecting to attend the times when it is just "boring bonding" time.  I've tried talking to him about this, but it doesn't seem to be sinking in and I wonder if it is because it is coming from me.  I've tried encouraging, explaining infant behavior, pointing out all the ways she is doing better than when she started, etc.  Yet he doesn't seem to understand.  Well, he says that he does but the actions tell a different story, almost a "yeah, I know she needs time.  Can I take her now?" He neglects to show for the next three bonding opportunities, but asks if I think it is okay for him to take her now.  I try to encourage him, and explain things, but at the same time, I don't want to lecture or chew him out or anything that will even seem slightly like an attack.  Our communication is still shaky and I don't need anything to jeopardize that, but obviously the ways I have told him are not effective because he still does not act as though he understands how important it is to put in the time with her.  How can I help him to understand without coming across in a manner that will be detrimental to communication?
Title: RE: Getting baby used to dad - Need help!
Post by: RainGirl on Sep 20, 2004, 06:49:28 AM
>You dropped her off with total strangers the first day of day
>care, but won't let her go with her dad.

Her first day at daycare was at a time when she was less sensitive to things of this nature, simply due to age.  Even so, I spent close to a month, sitting in the room with her EVERY DAY allowing her to get used to the people there and the environment so that she felt secure with everything.  To this day, she has never cried, not even once, when I left her there.  The first time I left her was for 20 minutes.  Eventually I worked the times up longer and longer, but it was a long process and one I took great pains to make certain she was comfortable with.  Sure it was a pain.  I had better things to do with my time but I spent a lot of time in that room because I felt it was best for her.  I'm not suddenly changing the rules because it is dad or to make him feel less or make life inconvenient for him.  I'm not asking him to do anything I wouldn't or haven't done.

>
>Yes, the child may be upset at being separated from familiar
>situations, but you will only make it worse by showing the
>child that you are uncomfortable leaving her with daddy.

When we discussed things, he asked for four specific times a week to visit with her.  I agreed to all four.  If he asked for additional times, I would do whatever I can to meet those as well.  Three of the four times are WITHOUT me present, but at least in environments that are comfortable for her.
   
>Many children, even
>this young, are also experts at manipulating their parents in
>order to get what they want.

I believe that we come from very different schools of thoughts on child psychology.  It's what I go to school for, what I do research on, what I am getting my degree in and from all that I have learned and all that I have seen, I cannot agree with that statement.  Perhaps one of those times we must agree to disagree.

>
>If your daughter isn't comfortable with dad, or if dad isn't
>comfortable with her, then it's a sign that they need to spend
>MORE time together, not less.
>

I'm not working towards cutting back the amount of time he is spending with her.  But he repeatedly misses his opportunities to spend time with her.  I'm searching for a way to help him understand that these times are important for her.  Saturday he missed a big time and I trashed some very important plans that my family and I had for Sunday so that he could make the time up.

>What you are doing is showing everyone, including your
>daughter, that dad is someone to be afraid of, who is not to
>be trusted as much as those girls making minimum wage to take
>care of her at the day care.

These "minimum wage girls" are all experienced individuals with master's degrees relating specifically to early childhood.  They all care for my daughter on a personal level.  State regulations for daycares here give ratios of 10:1 for infants.  My daughter's school has 6:2.  I have NEVER walked in the door and found my child (or any of the others for that matter) dirty, hungry, needing to be changed or crying.  Her teachers are always engaged with her and children in the room and it is obvious that they actively work towards the best needs of each child and are aware of developments and sensitive to their needs.
 
>You are making it clear that
>she's your baby, not his, and that he is a second class parent
>who is only allowed to be a parent at your whim.
>
>I have no sympathy for parents who leave their child with
>total strangers day after day for hours at a time in day care
>but won't let the dad have a few hours alone with the child.

Once again, I would never leave my daughter alone with strangers and I put a lot of time and effort into making certain she was comfortable and that her teachers were NOT strangers.  Right now, DAD IS!  So there is one thing we can agree on...it's not good to leave your child alone with strangers!  He's being given opportunities to move himself out of the stranger category.  These are all times that he has chosen, and at places he agreed to and yet he continues to not show.  How can I help him understand that he needs to spend MORE time with her to move himself out of the STRANGER category so he can PROGRESS with this relationship?
Title: RE: Getting baby used to dad - Need help!
Post by: maxwell on Sep 20, 2004, 07:19:51 AM
Maybe you are doing this already but let Dad (or let him assist) in changing her diaper, feeding her, rocking her to sleep and even let her sleep on his chest (for example) for a nap so she wakes up with him nearby (or he lay down next to her after she falls asleep).  Playing together, singing,  and sharing in a favorite video may help also :)
Title: RE: Getting baby used to dad - Need help!
Post by: wendl on Sep 20, 2004, 08:17:18 AM
He wont take advice from you, your right cuz it's coming from you.
Has he ever thought about taking some parenting classes that show how to calm a crying baby etc???? That may help.

Is there someone in his family that you can talk to about this and have them suggest some parenting classes. Also contact your child dr for some literature regarding infant behavior that you could give dad


**These are my opinions, they are not legal advice**
Title: RE: Getting baby used to dad - Need help!
Post by: joni on Sep 20, 2004, 08:58:07 AM
you have to take a leap of faith about this.  there is a scenario I'd like you to read about and think really hard about.  keep an open mind.  I don't think you're doing this intentionally.  It's called maternal gatekeeping.

http://marriage.about.com/cs/roles/a/maternalgate.htm

As I said to you in a prior post, I think you're a wonderfully, sensitive mother.  You have to learn to let go.  The problem now is this,  KIDS ARE NOT STUPID.  Your beautiful little baby girl has already got you wrapped around her finger.

If you keep enabling this, this anxiety of hers is going to grow beyond her father and people.  She's already insecure and insecurity breeds low self esteem.  Think about the long term effects of this.  Soon, you're going to grow very tired of being the center of her universe.  It's going to start inhibiting on the quality of your life.

I would just let her father take her.  It may take several times and she will probably scream and yell and be a bear with him until she learns she can't get her way.  He alone is going to have to ride out this storm.  Prepare him for this.  But this is the only way she's is going to get confidence in him that he can keep her safe....and he will.

As far as the day care calling you to come get her, that's normal.  She was being too disruptive to the entire day care and that's why they wanted her gone.  
Title: Ever heard of 'separation anxiety'?...............
Post by: Kitty C. on Sep 20, 2004, 09:37:35 AM
I agree with TGB, Dad needs to spend MORE time, not less.

When DS was 4 years old, his father took off with him and went back to CA, 1800 miles away.  It was our second separation, the only other time I had been away from him was when my father took ill and passed away, with me being gone for 2 weeks.  This time, we were separated for 6 weeks, and only ONE night in between when he was with me.  It took 6 weeks, 3 trips to CA, 2 court appearances, and 1 emerg. mediation to get him back.

After that, for WEEKS, that poor child would stand at the door and SCREAM 'Mommy, don't go, don't go!' every time I left for work.  We were staying with my mom at the time and it would rip my heart out every DAY.  But I understood why it was happening, tho it did nothing for the rip in my heart.  I also understood that if he were to get thru this, I had to go thru the motions of every day life.  If I would go back and try to comfort him, it only made matters worse, because he could see and feel my insecurities as well, and that just compounded his own.  I learned the hard way: no matter how much it hurt to see my child in so much pain, I HAD to make him go thru it, or he'd never get over it.  There was just no other way.

He did eventually get thru it.  He also would not sleep in his own bed for almost a year and a half.  But he got thru it.  The 2 MOST IMPORTANT lessons I learned out of this was this:  one, I CANNOT shield my child from all of life's pain..........he MUST endure some pain if he is ever to survive in this world, he MUST learn coping skills because if he doesn't while in my care, where else will he learn it?  And two, I've learned to plaster on a smile and/or a poker face.  When I am tense or anxious about a situation that my child is going thru, I CANNOT allow him to see my stress in any way, shape, or form.  Children may not be able to voice it, but they DAMN WELL DO know when their parents are upset or anxious.

It's obvious that your daughter senses your anxiety with the situation and is feeding off of it.  The ONLY way you will be able get her and you thru this is to BACK OFF.  I can promise you this.  No matter how you try to smooth the way, if you ever have to leave her anywhere in an emergency, she will pitch a fit of mega proportions, because she's learned that it causes you stress and that you will take her out of it immediately.  THAT's what you've taught her.  You're teaching her to be totally dependant on YOU.  Is that the lesson you want to teach?

And if you can take her to a day care, then there is NO reason why she cannot spend time with her father, especially away from you.  There is NOdifference between the two.  BOTH were strangers to her initially, but one your treated differently than the other.   WHY?  Another opinion:  if you're 'easing' her in to day care, what are you going to do when she starts school, what are you going to do (or better, how is SHE going to cope) when you don't have the luxury of doing that?

You say that you are studying child psychology, but that does NOT teach you to be a parent.  You are not raising a child, you are raising an ADULT.  What you teach now will have effects on her for her ENTIRE life.  So if you want her to have no coping skills and be dependant on others for the rest of her life, just keep doing what you're doing.  And an infant is NOT too young.  If you can't find a reputable day care, interview thoroughly, do your own checks, and visit once or twice with your child before starting, then there is no reason that you would need to stick around even on the first day.  Cuz I can guarantee you that you both will get a rude shock on the first day of school.  Many teachers INSIST that parents drop off their kids, say their goodbyes, and LEAVE.  If you're not capable of doing it now, you better learn, for the sake of your child.
Title: RE: Getting baby used to dad - Need help!
Post by: RainGirl on Sep 20, 2004, 03:47:47 PM
I've tried to find nice ways and good moments for him to be able to share.  She's breastfed but I pump milk and let him feed her that way.  We've avoided the diaper changing scene as she doesn't like to sit still that long so it tends to be a struggle and by the end of it, she's usually pretty ticked at me.  I didn't want him associated with that kind of thing, especially since he's still really new to the diaper thing himself and hitting a moving target proved to be frustrating for him as well.  She's used to me so being ticked wih me isn't a huge deal, but with her impressions of him being so limited, I'd rather keep thenegative ones to a minimum.  I kind of figured one battle at a time and that one can wait for later once they are both more comfortable with each other.  When she falls asleep (usually nursing) I hand her off to him so she can sleep on him.  I don't know for certain that it helps, but figure somehow, somewhere, she will gain a familiarity with his scent and if she stirs, sees him, and goes back to sleep, it's good for them as well.  Associating a relaxed, comfortable time with the face and scent.  I've even considered putting some of his cologne on her blankets and things around the house.  She loves music and I copied some of her favorite tapes so that when he does eventually take her, that part of her environment will carry over and help her feel a bit more at home.  I've never tried the video thing since I thought she as still pretty young for that, but that may be another thing to try.  Do you know of good videos for infants?  Thank you so much for all the helpful hints!  
Title: RE: Getting baby used to dad - Need help!
Post by: RainGirl on Sep 20, 2004, 03:59:25 PM
I will look into classes, maybe her pediatritian would be a good person to ask about those kinds of things since I don't even know where to start looking.  I have tons of text books from school on infant development and infant psychology and things of that nature, but it's a lot of reading considering what it is needed for.  Getting literature from her doctor is a great idea I didn't think about.  I'm sure they would have something far more scaled down and managable as texts can be more detailed and overwhelming than needed at times.  Thanks!

When I had picked DD up from school that day, her teachers said they were going to have to talk to him about how he interacted with her, giving her some space and time to adjust to him instead of rushing over and picking her up.  At the time, I told them I would do it, as I knew that would be a blow to his ego (he hates to look "bad" and the fact that she preferred her teachers over him would be insult enough without teachers having to rub it in by talking to him about it).  They are wonderful people and wouldn't ever intend for it to be insulting, but he's got a hellish case of male pride and I can pretty much guarantee that day it took a beating.  I knew it would come easier from me (much like having a family member pull you aside and tell you your fly is down instead of your client), but maybe if it came from another source, it would stick better.  I think I will wait and see how this week goes.  I talked to him this weekend about approaching her, but if it continues, I think I'll let them talk to him as well.
Title: RE: Ever heard of 'separation anxiety'?...............
Post by: Hawkeye on Sep 20, 2004, 07:03:04 PM
Kitty C. is onto something here...  ;^) and quite honestly I haven't read *all* the comments on this thread, but from what I have, it seems that *everyone* is a bit anxious... Mom wants to be Mom, Dad wants to be Dad and maybe, Baby just wants to be baby rather than caught in a potential tug-o-war.

Is Mom not fully comfortable with letting Dad be Dad? Is Mom a bit unsure of what is really best for baby? Is Dad excited about being Dad but could handle a little fine tuning into "babycare"? Is baby just confused as to just what is going on with all these new faces, places, and so called adults?

Forgive me if I missed something here, but maybe, just maybe if the two parents can take a parenting class together (or seperately) and not only discuss what is best for them, but fundamentally what is best for baby, and suck in their own adult egos, they might just make some discoveries.

Granted, I'm a guy, but I have seen sooo many guys that are just as, if not more nurturing than bio-moms. Lots of them hang out on slowlane.com and share their stories, others are busy just trying to fulfill their responsibility as sensitively as they can.

I'll try to go back to the beginning of this thread and re-read all the posts in case I'm missing something. For now, take it one day at a time, you've only just begun, raising, enlightening a little newbie! Congrats!   :+
Title: RE: Getting baby used to dad - Need help! (Videos)
Post by: maxwell on Sep 21, 2004, 06:42:46 AM
I found the Einstein videos awesome. I bought a few -- Beethoven. Mozart, the water ones, etc. My sons leans toward Beethoven. They are short (~35 mins) but he used to sit in front on replay for an hour or more.  While the visual themes seem somewhat similiar -- i think its the music that attracts him the most. (started this ~5 months old). He is now 19 months and every night before bed its a few minutes of "Nemo" ;)   Try amazon.com -- you can get them cheaper :)
Title: RE: Getting baby used to dad - Need help!
Post by: Kitty C. on Sep 21, 2004, 08:32:15 AM
I'm sorry, but the diaper thing is just plain lame.  I've not only changed the diapers on my own son, but millions of others while babysitting and working in a hospital.  ALL babies will move and wiggle on you, you just have to be the adult and take charge of it.  And how is Dad supposed to learn that if you don't let him?  Of COURSE it's frustrating at first, you just said it was for you.  So why won't you let Dad experience the same things you have?

If you have a changing table, there should be a strap that you put around the baby so you can secure her, or if you put the pad on the floor (I've worn out the knees on more jeans than I care to think about!), just keep one hand on her at ALL times and make sure that you have everything ready and available within reach when you go to change her.  This isn't rocket science and ANYONE is capable of it.  My 15 y.o. son can change the diaper on a swift-moving 1 y.o. now, but he didn't get to that point with one experience.

To tell you the truth, as long as you insist Dad stay in YOUR home while he sees his daughter, the least you could do is go to another part of the house and leave them alone.  Pump milk and give him a bottle to feed her and walk away.  He will never learn how to feed her, comfort her, change her, or put her to sleep with you hanging all over both of them constantly.  As long as you're at his side and jumping in every time she squeaks, he's never going to learn a thing.

BACK OFF.
Title: I agree
Post by: joni on Sep 21, 2004, 09:06:08 AM
I'm beside myself on this whole scenario.  Just tons of lame excuses to disrespect that father's role in the child's life.    She's very patronizing of his role in the child's life.
Title: Little comment
Post by: Ref on Sep 21, 2004, 10:14:33 AM

In your original post you seem to be upset by your ex taking his girlfriend to see your daughter. Why is this a problem? What does that have to do with anything besides your own issues?

I think that comment speaks volumes about your attitude towards him.
Title: RE: Getting baby used to dad - Need help! (Videos)
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Sep 21, 2004, 11:30:05 AM
Those videos are great. I did the same thing...

I also sing to my son, but don't tell anyone
Title: My thoughts . . .
Post by: hagatha on Sep 22, 2004, 06:32:49 AM
Rain,

Yiu sure have come a long way!! Congrats!

I would say my thoughts will not be popular but they will get you where you want to be.

I think your problem is consistancy and the lack thereof. If he would show up more she would be more secure. While your approach takes time and is very good, it is being wasted because I think he resents the concept.

Next time he shows up, hand him the baby and her diaper bag and tell him to have her back in a couple hours.  Now either he will be back in a very short time, he will call from wherever he is and ask how to calm her, or he will learn how to handle her all on his own.

She might return upset and scared, or she might be fine. You don't know what will happen because you haven't tried this yet.

Trust me, this won't kill her. She doen't need you as a security blanket. She needs to figure him out and he needs a chance to figure it all out too.

I know you will think I am crazy, but if you try what I suggest a couple times you might be suprised

The Witch
Remember . . . KARMA is a Wonderful Thing!!!!!
Title: RE: My thoughts . . .
Post by: joni on Sep 22, 2004, 08:20:51 AM
Good advice Hagatha, although I'm sure it won't be followed because it's not what Rain wants to hear.  IMO, this is exactly what Rain needs to do.  But it won't happen and this dad needs a court order to get Rain to enable him to have a relationship with his daughter without her sabotage and interference.  

I think about this dad....and this happens to many noncustodial dads/mom in many forms by custodial moms/dads, they make it SO DIFFICULT for the noncustodial parent to participate in their childrens' life, they become disenchanted and discouraged.  Ergo....this particular dads inconsistency in visitations.  One gets tired of constantly fighting for the simple right to be in their child's life.  I wouldn't be surprised if this dad gave up altogether.

This is a form of PAS.  This is a form of denial of visitation.  This is maternal entitlement and gatekeeping.  

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.......

Title: this is an 8 month baby!
Post by: piXi on Sep 24, 2004, 12:05:11 PM
not a toddler or an older child.
her ability to understand even the basics of her situation are limited.
I think the father needs to spend time with the child in the childs environment until she feels comfortable and familar with him.

Title: baby steps first
Post by: piXi on Sep 24, 2004, 12:09:59 PM
perhaps the mother and father could take the  baby to the park and practise tiny separations.

He could walk with her down the path and then then bring her back.

It seems to me if the baby is feeling insecure it isnt possible to make her feel secure by increasing the sitautions that made her so in the beginning.

She has to learn to feel secure with  her father and the easiest way for that to happen is inthe comapny of her mother.

As an aside, I do not believe an  8 month old  child is manipulative.
Title: why would it not be a problem
Post by: piXi on Sep 24, 2004, 12:12:34 PM
its a situation that causes her pain.

Its not a bad thing to have issues, not a bad thing to  feel pain - its how we grow through these situations and what we learn from them.

It seems to me she is trying her best to learn how to deal with her pain and do the best for her daughter.
Title: beautiful ideas!
Post by: piXi on Sep 24, 2004, 12:13:54 PM
maybe also make a little album of photos of her with her father so she can see him everyday.
Title: the needs of a 4 year old are very differnt from that of a baby
Post by: piXi on Sep 24, 2004, 12:16:17 PM
at 4 a child is beginning to be able to deal with these issues but at 8 months not at all.
Title: I think they just need to get to know each other
Post by: piXi on Sep 24, 2004, 12:17:44 PM
the baby is not yet comfortable with her father and needs time to grow into that relationship.

It seems to me the mother is trying to help that process.
Title: lets think about what a baby might want
Post by: piXi on Sep 24, 2004, 12:19:53 PM
to be fed
to be loved and held
to feel comfortable and safe
to be with the people she knows and loves

to  make these wants known in the only ways she can is to be manipulative?
Title: I think you are doing well
Post by: piXi on Sep 24, 2004, 12:21:58 PM
I think separating mothers and babies at this young age is very difficult emtionally and it seems to me you treat your baby's relationship with her father most seriously
Title: RE: Little comment
Post by: RainGirl on Sep 24, 2004, 06:24:38 PM
I did have issues with him bringing her along, but not because of who she was.  I would have had just as much of an issue if he had brought along one of his male friends.  He seems very interested in showing her off and getting all the oohs and aahs that come with a cute little one, but repeatedly failed to show at times when it was just boring old bonding.  He was rushing taking her on his own so he could show her off and do what he wanted, but continued to not do what she needed to be comfortable with him doing so.  He finally did show up at the agreed time to visit with her, but I had the feeling that it was more to show her off than to do what was good for her.  If anything, I'd think it would be harder to get to know a child with even more strangers thrown into the mix.  End result, the gf was a plus for him, but I think it was a bit self serving and possibly worked against what dd needs.
Title: RE: beautiful ideas!
Post by: RainGirl on Sep 24, 2004, 06:27:03 PM
I briefly thought about asking him for some pictures so I could show them to her, but I wasn't sure if that was just being silly or not.  Then again, couldn't hurt anything!  I like to read books to her so an album would be a great thing to look at.  Thanks for the wonderful idea!
Title: use his comments about what they do
Post by: piXi on Sep 25, 2004, 02:31:01 AM
to write a little story to go with the photos in her own personal book
Title: RE: this is an 8 month baby!
Post by: annas mom on Sep 29, 2004, 11:34:42 AM
I totally agree. This child is too young to be thrust off into the hands of a stranger with no childcare experience. If the father had bothered to himself to be around the first 8 months of her life and had taken his opportunity to be consistent prior to now then this would not even be an issue, now would it?

What if the situation were reversed? What if at birth the mother had given the child up to the father and then when she was 8 months old decided just to jump back into her life...would you still think he should just 'hand over the baby and the diaper bag' and let her have at it?

Best wishes to you and your little one Rain! :)
Title: RE: baby steps first
Post by: FleetingMoment on Sep 29, 2004, 06:48:30 PM
It would help if the father understands the following. Rain knows what she's talking about. The father needs to understand that its important to slowly introduce himself to his child.

Family and Social Relationships: The most important people in your baby's life are you, his parents because he feels safe and secure with you.

By 6 months old, your baby understands that he is an individual, separate from you and others. Knowing this makes your baby feel "separation anxiety." This means that your baby cries and is afraid when you leave or when he cannot see you.

Stranger anxiety also starts at about 6 to 7 months of age. It is normal for your baby to be afraid of strangers at this age. Have the "new" person come toward your baby quietly without looking right at your baby. And, try not to leave your baby with strangers if possible.

Personality and Emotional Development: You are telling your baby that his thoughts and feelings are important when you react to his cues (signs). This helps build your baby's self-esteem (how he thinks about himself). Do not worry about spoiling your baby by giving him too much attention. You give your baby a feeling of safety and trust when you quickly and consistently comfort your baby when "demanded."
Title: RE: My thoughts . . .
Post by: Hawkeye on Sep 29, 2004, 07:01:59 PM
"Next time he shows up, hand him the baby and her diaper bag and tell him to have her back in a couple hours. Now either he will be back in a very short time, he will call from wherever he is and ask how to calm her, or he will learn how to handle her all on his own."

How amusing... I got NO diaper bag from my ex, made my own. Cloth diapers when she forgot to bring any to her own Gramma's house.  Rubber pants too.

She even stole the one that was given to me from the hospital, aside from the one I bought her.  

Give this guy a chance, or be forever relegated to the unsharing, selfish witchpile.

Karma, LOL! You seriously underestimate an American Father.
Title: Well said.....
Post by: Stepmom0418 on Sep 29, 2004, 07:07:37 PM
Couldn't think of a better way to say it!! Fathers should be allowed to be fathers and mothers should be allowed to be mothers!! The child will never get to know the father and have a meaningful relationship with the father if the mother is always there "looking over his shoulder!!"
Title: it was my understanding
Post by: piXi on Sep 30, 2004, 12:55:38 AM
this discussion was about how to intergrate the father into the child's life  not about how to remove him.

No one is underestimating a father's ability; this father's ability to love and nurture his child but rather how to  make it easy for a very young child to feel increasingly comfortable with a father she is beginning to get to know.

The idea of sending the child off with a father she doesnt yet feel comfortable with  reminds me forcibly of the old fashioned method of teaching children to swim by dropping them in the deep end of the pool.
Title: RE: it was my understanding
Post by: Stepmom0418 on Sep 30, 2004, 04:12:04 AM
When a baby a newborn, the baby does not "know" mom or dad. Some newborns have trouble bonding when they are born.

So what you are saying is that if the baby has trouble bonding with dad, mom should not let dad be a parent? Mom should not leave dad alone with the child?

I believe that both parents should be able to parent children! The child needs to learn to trust dad and one way to accomplish that would be for mom to show that she trusts dad herself!!

What about grandparents that dont live close by and have little contact with the child? Do you tell them they cant take the child for the day too?
Title: a new born does *know* the mother
Post by: piXi on Sep 30, 2004, 05:45:58 AM
and to a lesser degree the father

The  time spent in the uterus is not time in a  vacuum but time spent learning the sounds and rhythmns of  the day as it is spent with the mother.
The sound of  the father's voice and the  physical contact between the parents are all felt also by the child.

The relationship of trust is generally implicit to the process of pregnancy and birth and includes both parents if they are present.

A baby needs to bond with one particular carer  before s/he can make further bonds - and in our society that person is  often the mother .

If a relatinship of intimacy and trust exists between the parents the child moves quickly  to develop relations with both parents, howver, it is difficult to build a relationship of trust with an absent parent. It was my understanding the original poster was working through ways such a relationship could develop and what she could do to help the initial stages of that process.

Any one can take a baby for a day, anyone can begin to develop a relationship of trust and love with a child. all it takes is commitment and time.
Title: RE: a new born does *know* the mother
Post by: Stepmom0418 on Sep 30, 2004, 06:04:20 AM
>a new born does *know* the mother
>and to a lesser degree the father

Yes the newborn does have a bond with the mother before being born. My DH was unable to be with me during pregnancy and still he built a bond with our son in no time. But I also gave him the oportunity to care for our son alone, just him and our son!! They bonded very fast and have a great relationship today!! The poster here does not want the father to have any alone time with the baby. She wants to supervise the visits or have her older child supervise the visits. My point here is that anyone can form a bond with a child. Why not let this father have time alone to form this bond? He was good enough to have a relationship with the mother at one point but now he isnt good enough to have a relationship with his child? That makes no sense to me!!



>Any one can take a baby for a day, >anyone can begin to develop
>a relationship of trust and love with a child. all it takes is
>commitment and time.
>


My point exact!!!!!!!! Let the father take the child for the day and let him develop his own bond WITHOUT any interfeerence from the mother or any other person for that matter!!
Title: for every privilege there is an equal responsibility
Post by: piXi on Sep 30, 2004, 06:38:54 AM
the love and and trust of a child is not  a  right  it is something that grows and develops. The original poster wants to  ensure the emotional safety of the child within her care. that suggests to me she accepts the responsibilities that come with the privilege of love and trust. She wants the supervision to last until the child knows the father and feels comfortable in his presence.

If the  father truly wants to grow his relationship with the child he would take the baby steps that growth requires.

When you talk of your husband's relationship with his son you are talking about an intact family - this is a very different situation as we all know - you had no issues of trust with him and that would have been sensed by the baby. Your relationship with him was on a daily and ongoing basis - that also would have bene felt by the child.

taking an unknown child for the day because YOU want a relationship doesnt neccessarily make one happen. It takes two to make a relationship and if one of those is a panic stricken and fearful child the task of developing trust is going to take a lot longer.

Title: RE: for every privilege there is an equal responsibility
Post by: Stepmom0418 on Sep 30, 2004, 06:49:48 AM
were you here and did you read the posts by this poster? other than this one?

When she first came here she wanted this father to have nothing to do woth this child!

Knowing that she has these feeling towards this father.......That in its self tells me that her child is feeling her emothions and therefor will never develope a bond with this child. All due to the mother and her emotions! Is that fair? Is that right?

This child deserves to know her father and form her OWN bond and opinion of her father!
Title: I do not disagree with that
Post by: piXi on Sep 30, 2004, 06:59:55 AM
I simply have a different view from you about how that might best occur.


**added on later**

yes the child deserves to have a relationship with her father of her own making and on her own terms however, the poster stated the father did not turn up for arranged times with his child. If this is the case he is making it difficult to develop a relationship with his child not the childs mother.

maybe he doesnt like the idea of the childs mother being there.
maybe he would like to go the whole hog and take the child for the day irreespective of the feelings of the child and the mother.

maybe he doesnt want baby steps

but you know sometimes you just have to suck it up and do whats best even if it isnt the instant gratification you want.

worst case scenerio:
father takes frightened and unwilling child to 'bond'
child becomes more fearful and trust is not developing
mother becomes anxious and boom

big bad ugly situation

I was thinking back to remember what it was like when my children were tiny and my marriage intact and i know I guarded those babies like a lioness.

I didnt let them leave my sight for an instant for a long time. All our relations happily worked within my fearfulness as a new mother and began the bonding process with me there.

As a  CP I know my NCP xh has to work harder at his relationship with our children than I do - simply because he doesnt see them as often.

As their mother it is my responsibility to help them develop the best relationship they can with their father even when they do not particularly wish to - but I do this from a baseline of shared parenting. I cannot image what it would be like to try and co-parent with an absent father.

Ive raved on a bit and Im sorry but I find this very compelling

Title: This just BLOWS my mind..........
Post by: Kitty C. on Sep 30, 2004, 07:09:15 AM
Parents have NO problems leaving a child, even as young as 4-6 months with a babysitter (I know, I've babysat MANY times with infants), but there's a problem letting Dad have even a couple hours with the baby without anyone around???  GET REAL!

The first time I babysat an infant that young, I felt like I didn't know what to do, either.  And this was ALL DAY.  We made it thru the diaper changes, the feedings, and the crying.......certainly not the exact same way Mom would have done, but we made it.  And that child was not scarred because of the experience.  I've babysat an infant who cried for 45 minutes solid, but I knew that eventually he would wear himself out.  After the initial 10-15 min., he was only crying because he was crying.......and tho the mother told me to page them if he cried longer than 30 min., I knew that it wouldn't be long till he would tire himself out.  I made sure that he was dry, fed, and there wasn't any other obvious physical reasons why he was crying, so we rocked until he wore himself out and then he slept for the rest of the night.

He was the son of a resident who worked in the same clinic I did........his dad really didn't know me from Adam.  They came from somewhere on the East Coast and went to Utah after his residency.  Techincally, I was a COMPLETE stranger to them.  So basically, it comes down to TRUST, nothing more and nothing less.  If you can hire a babysitter for your child, there's NO reason why Dad can't have a couple hours with his own child.  I would still recommend an infant parenting class, just to give him some basics on feeding and changing, but the rest he's gonna have to wing it, just like every other parent does.  No two children are alike and what works for one may not work for another.  AND a child will react differently to different people.  I've seen that with my own child.  It's called human nature.........
Title: you see thats the thing
Post by: piXi on Sep 30, 2004, 07:13:46 AM
some people dont do that.

they dont leave their children with strangers, they dont let them cry themselves out.

My children's baby sitter got to know them by coming to play with them when I was there, staying with them when they were asleep and slowly - as their relationship with her developed - sitting with them for longer.

She became their god mother and is now - for  always - an integral part of their extended family.

I hear what you say about your experiences - I just wouldnt do it.
Title: RE: I do not disagree with that
Post by: Stepmom0418 on Sep 30, 2004, 10:18:04 AM
This father is NOT absent!! He is there and the mother in this case wants to controll everything about his visits!!
Title: RE: this is an 8 month baby!
Post by: RainGirl on Sep 30, 2004, 05:02:25 PM
Thank you for your understanding.  Yet out of all fairness to him, I must admit that things between us were really bd and we didn't even talk for the last few months of my pregnancy.  When she was born, I called and told him.  He came to see her and shortly after that I told him that I still didn't like being around him and would honor his requests for visits, but would appreciate it if he kept them to a minimum.  He called about every 3 weeks and I would take her to see him when he called.  When she was 4 months old I got angry at him for telling lies and starting in with the controlling head games.  I told him I couldn't take it, told him not to call me and didn't talk to him for almost 4 months.  So it is greatly my fault that she is not used to him.

Things have progressed some since the initial post but it is still very much a wait and see kind of thing.  If nothing else, he seems to have settled into an understanding of her needs.  Maybe not a full understanding, but at least something and for that I am grateful.
Title: RE: this is an 8 month baby!
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Sep 30, 2004, 05:31:01 PM
It has been two weeks since you first posted.

I think you are looking for excuses.

This man is the childs father, let him be a father. Let him take the child 6 hours one day and then 6 hours the next. Progress up to more time and then overnights.

The only way he will bond is to actually have the child and address her needs one on  one.

There are a lot of fathers who have been the caregivers since birth. It should not make a difference if it is mommy or daddy giving her care.

You apparently have some type of mental block on letting this go.
Title: update
Post by: RainGirl on Sep 30, 2004, 05:46:11 PM
No, I do not wish to control every little thing about his visits.  I just want her comfortable with the people she is with and not afraid.  I see no good coming from that.  Three of the four visit times he requested each week are without me.   Yet those are consistantly the three that he misses!!!  Originally we agreed that her school would be a good place for her to get used to him in a place that was comfortable for her but without me.  Since making that agreement, he has had six visitation times.  Remember, these are time slots that HE chose, but he as showed up for ONE of the six.  That was the time he brought his gf to show her.  (No, I don't have issues with the gf being there, but I think getting to show her off was the only reason he went.)

No, I don't believe that she is "feeding" off of my feelings or emotions or cues.  She freaks out on him when I am not there.  When I am there, she is at ease with him.  Now and then she wimpers and lets me know she's had enough.  I don't push those limits.  I take her back, she "recharges" a bit and then is ready to go back and play wth him again.  When I am not there she is very uncertain about him.

He does show up for visits now when I am going to be there.  I have also made a regulr habit of trying to give him additional chances to come over and hang out with her.  I invite him to dinner a couple of nights a week.  He hates his commute to work/school in the morning (not an AM person) and much rather likes leaving from my house which is closer.  Usually a couple of nights a week I let him come over and sleep with her.  I'm usually up all night doing homework and only sleep an average of 3 hours a nght so it isn't a big deal.  Slowly she is getting better and better at going with him, but it hasn't come in the form of the visits he requested.

The other night I asked him if he would want to take her on his own.  It was a personal and sentimental day for him an I knew it might be made easier for him if she was there.  He ended up inviting us to go along with him but we went in separate cars.  He took her and when we arrived, I hung back a bit to give him some time alone.  A few minutes later he was happy to hand her over as she screamed at him the entire time.  I have ofered to let him take her at night several times, figuring she would be tired and sleepy most of the time but he could spend time with her before bed and if she woke up.  He has always declined claiming he has too much homework and can't afford the distraction.

For those of you that feel I am being too controlling, I'm sorry.  I'm trying to do what I feel is best for my daughter by helping her feel comfortable and not greatly pushing the limits she sets.  Some of you have put forth ideas about the inner workings of an infant that differ greatly from mine.  I'll respect your right to hold an opinion but at the same time, I am not able to agree with it.  I've read too many reasearch studies, talked with too many child psychologists, read too many text books and been studying this very subject for too long to agree with you.  That being said, I do not intend to shove her out the door with him for any length of time until I feel she is ready for it.  What I am looking for are ideas of how to help their bonding process grow and develop in a positive manner.  There have been some wonderful ideas so far and I look forward to incorprating them into what we are already trying.  Those of you with other ideas or sugguestions that may be of help are encouraged and I look forward to learning some of the things that may have helped others on this board.  Thank you.

Title: RE: update
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Sep 30, 2004, 06:03:26 PM
Whether you believe it or not, that is exactly what's going on. A child can sense emotion at a very early age. She is getting her cues from you.

Try leaving her in your home, have him come by. YOU take a walk and give them sometime together.

I am sure her being placed in a strange car did not help the matter...

From posts you wrote earlier this year, makes me wonder how much real effort you put in. And of course, we only have your word.


"Children learn what they live"
Title: RE: update
Post by: RainGirl on Sep 30, 2004, 06:38:37 PM
When she is with me...and able to pick up on my emotions and take cues from me, she is fine with him.  When I am not around, she screams and wants nothing to do with him.  What negative emotion is she picking up from me?  The times she has seriously freaked out on him was when I wasn't even there when he showed up.  She was happy playing at her school.  I had nothing to do with that.

One of the four times a week that he is scheduled to visit with her is at my house when I am not here so she can visit with him in a safe and secure environment without my interference.  So far he has not shown up to that one either.  Not even once.

I think it may have had something to do with the sound of the car.  He's got a high performance sports car with twin turbos and....  I told him she seems to prefer my car to my truck and thought it had something to do with the rumble of the truck.  Told him not to be discouraged by it and maybe if he borrowed his mom's car she might be easier or he coud keep trying his.

No matter what you may or may not think of me, I have every interest in the world in adjusting her to him.  No, I'm still not 100% certain  is a good idea, but it is what we are now doing.  HOWEVER, even if I hated him, even if I didn't want her to like him, even if I didn't want him to bond with her, even if....  The fact of the matter is my baby is scared.  My baby is having trouble adjusting and is being placed in a situation where she is distressed.  The sooner she gets used to him, the sooner she can stop being stressed and scared.  I was called to her school to pick her up because she was so upset and scared due to his visit.  What kind of a mother can look at that and NOT want to help her child?  Part of me sees that and wants to take her and run, but so long as this is what we are committed to, I need to help HER through it.  So no matter what I may or may not think of him, for her sake, I am trying to make this easy on HER.

So once again, if anyone has ideas about what can make this process easier for her, I'd love to hear them.  For those with negativity, please consider posting it elsewhere.  I'm not looking for that.
Title: There's just one thing you fail to realize..............
Post by: Kitty C. on Oct 01, 2004, 07:07:18 AM
Even as an infant, you CANNOT control how she responds to anyone or anything.  You cannot MAKE her 'adjust'.  That is something only SHE can learn on her own.  You wonder why she responds the way she does when you're not there?  Because you've always 'rescued' her when you are there.  She's fussing becaue you're not 'rescuing' her.

The one thing I've learned, from my own son and all the many children I've babysat, is that each and every one of them is different and they all have their own ways of doing things.  I could 'assist', by going with their cues, in helping them thru the adjustment process, but the bulk of it they had to work thru themselves.

What are you going to do when she goes thru separation anxiety?  Because what she's experiencing right now doesn't even come close.  DS went thru a MAJOR episode when he was 4, caused by his father taking him away from me for 6 weeks.  After I got him back, I had my heart ripped out on a daily basis leaving for work, when he would stand at the door and SCREAM 'Mommy, don't go, don't go!'  What was I to do, not go to work and hold him all day?  That would only postpone the inevitable and make the pain last that much longer for him.  Unfortunately, as heartbreaking as it was for me to watch and endure, he had to suffer thru it himself.  And he did, there was just no other way to get thru it.

Question:  has she had any contact with any other men?  Men who maybe aren't as comfortable with infants as her daddy?  How does she react with them?  The Same?  We had a family friend who adamantly refused to hold DS when he was an infant, saying he knew nothing about them.  One time, I literally thrust DS in his arms, just to see how the both of them would react.  I've still got pics, too!  Our friend looks stiff and uncomfortable, only because it was strange to him.  And DS even at a month old, could tell the difference and was fussy.  But they BOTH did just fine.  It's called 'adapting' and NO ONE can teach that or guide it.  It is something only the person experiencing it can deal with and work thru.  And one of the first lessons we learn as human beings.

JMO, but you're setting your daughter up to fail to have the ability to adjust to her environment without you for her to fall back on.  You said that you 'eased' her into her daycare.   You think her pre-school or kindergarden teachers will be so accomodating?  I highly doubt it.  Whether it's with her father or anyone else, you need to loosen the reins, for your daughter's sake, or she will be severely dependent on you......or anyone else who 'shows' her love and comfort.  Think about how this would affect her in her teenage years.  She would be a sitting duck for some smooth-talking idiot, male or female............

All your child psychology books don't come close to real life and bringing up children to be self-reliant.  JMO, but I think that is one aspect that, in the last 20 years or so, many parents have failed in, along with not learning to say 'no' often enough.  These are lessons they MUST learn at home, because if they are forced to learn it in the real world, they will be chewed up and spit out.  You are not raising a child, you are raising an adult.  Never forget that.
Title: RE: you see thats the thing
Post by: joni on Oct 01, 2004, 07:49:16 AM

and I certainly would NEVER do this to the child's father.  it's ludacrist and disrespectful....it's a passive form of entitlement and alienation.
Title: Kitty, Excellent Post
Post by: Stepmomnow on Oct 01, 2004, 08:34:42 AM
I could not have said it better myself.  Kids are more resilent than we give them credit for, and you are absolutely correct that they have to learn to self sooth, or their lives will be miserable.
Title: RE: you see thats the thing
Post by: Stepmom0418 on Oct 01, 2004, 08:52:14 AM
I agree totally!!
Title: YOU CLAIM TO BE OPEN FOR SUGGESTIONS, HERE'S ONE
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Oct 01, 2004, 09:10:12 AM
Have the father of your baby come to Sparc and share what his thoughts are. I am sure all here, will be more then willing to answer any of his concerns...

"Children Learn What they Live"
Title: RE: this is an 8 month baby!
Post by: RainGirl on Sep 30, 2004, 05:02:25 PM
Thank you for your understanding.  Yet out of all fairness to him, I must admit that things between us were really bd and we didn't even talk for the last few months of my pregnancy.  When she was born, I called and told him.  He came to see her and shortly after that I told him that I still didn't like being around him and would honor his requests for visits, but would appreciate it if he kept them to a minimum.  He called about every 3 weeks and I would take her to see him when he called.  When she was 4 months old I got angry at him for telling lies and starting in with the controlling head games.  I told him I couldn't take it, told him not to call me and didn't talk to him for almost 4 months.  So it is greatly my fault that she is not used to him.

Things have progressed some since the initial post but it is still very much a wait and see kind of thing.  If nothing else, he seems to have settled into an understanding of her needs.  Maybe not a full understanding, but at least something and for that I am grateful.
Title: RE: this is an 8 month baby!
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Sep 30, 2004, 05:31:01 PM
It has been two weeks since you first posted.

I think you are looking for excuses.

This man is the childs father, let him be a father. Let him take the child 6 hours one day and then 6 hours the next. Progress up to more time and then overnights.

The only way he will bond is to actually have the child and address her needs one on  one.

There are a lot of fathers who have been the caregivers since birth. It should not make a difference if it is mommy or daddy giving her care.

You apparently have some type of mental block on letting this go.
Title: update
Post by: RainGirl on Sep 30, 2004, 05:46:11 PM
No, I do not wish to control every little thing about his visits.  I just want her comfortable with the people she is with and not afraid.  I see no good coming from that.  Three of the four visit times he requested each week are without me.   Yet those are consistantly the three that he misses!!!  Originally we agreed that her school would be a good place for her to get used to him in a place that was comfortable for her but without me.  Since making that agreement, he has had six visitation times.  Remember, these are time slots that HE chose, but he as showed up for ONE of the six.  That was the time he brought his gf to show her.  (No, I don't have issues with the gf being there, but I think getting to show her off was the only reason he went.)

No, I don't believe that she is "feeding" off of my feelings or emotions or cues.  She freaks out on him when I am not there.  When I am there, she is at ease with him.  Now and then she wimpers and lets me know she's had enough.  I don't push those limits.  I take her back, she "recharges" a bit and then is ready to go back and play wth him again.  When I am not there she is very uncertain about him.

He does show up for visits now when I am going to be there.  I have also made a regulr habit of trying to give him additional chances to come over and hang out with her.  I invite him to dinner a couple of nights a week.  He hates his commute to work/school in the morning (not an AM person) and much rather likes leaving from my house which is closer.  Usually a couple of nights a week I let him come over and sleep with her.  I'm usually up all night doing homework and only sleep an average of 3 hours a nght so it isn't a big deal.  Slowly she is getting better and better at going with him, but it hasn't come in the form of the visits he requested.

The other night I asked him if he would want to take her on his own.  It was a personal and sentimental day for him an I knew it might be made easier for him if she was there.  He ended up inviting us to go along with him but we went in separate cars.  He took her and when we arrived, I hung back a bit to give him some time alone.  A few minutes later he was happy to hand her over as she screamed at him the entire time.  I have ofered to let him take her at night several times, figuring she would be tired and sleepy most of the time but he could spend time with her before bed and if she woke up.  He has always declined claiming he has too much homework and can't afford the distraction.

For those of you that feel I am being too controlling, I'm sorry.  I'm trying to do what I feel is best for my daughter by helping her feel comfortable and not greatly pushing the limits she sets.  Some of you have put forth ideas about the inner workings of an infant that differ greatly from mine.  I'll respect your right to hold an opinion but at the same time, I am not able to agree with it.  I've read too many reasearch studies, talked with too many child psychologists, read too many text books and been studying this very subject for too long to agree with you.  That being said, I do not intend to shove her out the door with him for any length of time until I feel she is ready for it.  What I am looking for are ideas of how to help their bonding process grow and develop in a positive manner.  There have been some wonderful ideas so far and I look forward to incorprating them into what we are already trying.  Those of you with other ideas or sugguestions that may be of help are encouraged and I look forward to learning some of the things that may have helped others on this board.  Thank you.

Title: RE: update
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Sep 30, 2004, 06:03:26 PM
Whether you believe it or not, that is exactly what's going on. A child can sense emotion at a very early age. She is getting her cues from you.

Try leaving her in your home, have him come by. YOU take a walk and give them sometime together.

I am sure her being placed in a strange car did not help the matter...

From posts you wrote earlier this year, makes me wonder how much real effort you put in. And of course, we only have your word.


"Children learn what they live"
Title: RE: update
Post by: RainGirl on Sep 30, 2004, 06:38:37 PM
When she is with me...and able to pick up on my emotions and take cues from me, she is fine with him.  When I am not around, she screams and wants nothing to do with him.  What negative emotion is she picking up from me?  The times she has seriously freaked out on him was when I wasn't even there when he showed up.  She was happy playing at her school.  I had nothing to do with that.

One of the four times a week that he is scheduled to visit with her is at my house when I am not here so she can visit with him in a safe and secure environment without my interference.  So far he has not shown up to that one either.  Not even once.

I think it may have had something to do with the sound of the car.  He's got a high performance sports car with twin turbos and....  I told him she seems to prefer my car to my truck and thought it had something to do with the rumble of the truck.  Told him not to be discouraged by it and maybe if he borrowed his mom's car she might be easier or he coud keep trying his.

No matter what you may or may not think of me, I have every interest in the world in adjusting her to him.  No, I'm still not 100% certain  is a good idea, but it is what we are now doing.  HOWEVER, even if I hated him, even if I didn't want her to like him, even if I didn't want him to bond with her, even if....  The fact of the matter is my baby is scared.  My baby is having trouble adjusting and is being placed in a situation where she is distressed.  The sooner she gets used to him, the sooner she can stop being stressed and scared.  I was called to her school to pick her up because she was so upset and scared due to his visit.  What kind of a mother can look at that and NOT want to help her child?  Part of me sees that and wants to take her and run, but so long as this is what we are committed to, I need to help HER through it.  So no matter what I may or may not think of him, for her sake, I am trying to make this easy on HER.

So once again, if anyone has ideas about what can make this process easier for her, I'd love to hear them.  For those with negativity, please consider posting it elsewhere.  I'm not looking for that.
Title: There's just one thing you fail to realize..............
Post by: Kitty C. on Oct 01, 2004, 07:07:18 AM
Even as an infant, you CANNOT control how she responds to anyone or anything.  You cannot MAKE her 'adjust'.  That is something only SHE can learn on her own.  You wonder why she responds the way she does when you're not there?  Because you've always 'rescued' her when you are there.  She's fussing becaue you're not 'rescuing' her.

The one thing I've learned, from my own son and all the many children I've babysat, is that each and every one of them is different and they all have their own ways of doing things.  I could 'assist', by going with their cues, in helping them thru the adjustment process, but the bulk of it they had to work thru themselves.

What are you going to do when she goes thru separation anxiety?  Because what she's experiencing right now doesn't even come close.  DS went thru a MAJOR episode when he was 4, caused by his father taking him away from me for 6 weeks.  After I got him back, I had my heart ripped out on a daily basis leaving for work, when he would stand at the door and SCREAM 'Mommy, don't go, don't go!'  What was I to do, not go to work and hold him all day?  That would only postpone the inevitable and make the pain last that much longer for him.  Unfortunately, as heartbreaking as it was for me to watch and endure, he had to suffer thru it himself.  And he did, there was just no other way to get thru it.

Question:  has she had any contact with any other men?  Men who maybe aren't as comfortable with infants as her daddy?  How does she react with them?  The Same?  We had a family friend who adamantly refused to hold DS when he was an infant, saying he knew nothing about them.  One time, I literally thrust DS in his arms, just to see how the both of them would react.  I've still got pics, too!  Our friend looks stiff and uncomfortable, only because it was strange to him.  And DS even at a month old, could tell the difference and was fussy.  But they BOTH did just fine.  It's called 'adapting' and NO ONE can teach that or guide it.  It is something only the person experiencing it can deal with and work thru.  And one of the first lessons we learn as human beings.

JMO, but you're setting your daughter up to fail to have the ability to adjust to her environment without you for her to fall back on.  You said that you 'eased' her into her daycare.   You think her pre-school or kindergarden teachers will be so accomodating?  I highly doubt it.  Whether it's with her father or anyone else, you need to loosen the reins, for your daughter's sake, or she will be severely dependent on you......or anyone else who 'shows' her love and comfort.  Think about how this would affect her in her teenage years.  She would be a sitting duck for some smooth-talking idiot, male or female............

All your child psychology books don't come close to real life and bringing up children to be self-reliant.  JMO, but I think that is one aspect that, in the last 20 years or so, many parents have failed in, along with not learning to say 'no' often enough.  These are lessons they MUST learn at home, because if they are forced to learn it in the real world, they will be chewed up and spit out.  You are not raising a child, you are raising an adult.  Never forget that.
Title: RE: you see thats the thing
Post by: joni on Oct 01, 2004, 07:49:16 AM

and I certainly would NEVER do this to the child's father.  it's ludacrist and disrespectful....it's a passive form of entitlement and alienation.
Title: Kitty, Excellent Post
Post by: Stepmomnow on Oct 01, 2004, 08:34:42 AM
I could not have said it better myself.  Kids are more resilent than we give them credit for, and you are absolutely correct that they have to learn to self sooth, or their lives will be miserable.
Title: RE: you see thats the thing
Post by: Stepmom0418 on Oct 01, 2004, 08:52:14 AM
I agree totally!!
Title: YOU CLAIM TO BE OPEN FOR SUGGESTIONS, HERE'S ONE
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Oct 01, 2004, 09:10:12 AM
Have the father of your baby come to Sparc and share what his thoughts are. I am sure all here, will be more then willing to answer any of his concerns...

"Children Learn What they Live"
Title: RE: YOU CLAIM TO BE OPEN FOR SUGGESTIONS, HERE'S ONE
Post by: Stepmom0418 on Oct 01, 2004, 10:00:01 AM
That is an awesome suggestion!!
Title: RE: There's just one thing you fail to realize..............
Post by: RainGirl on Oct 01, 2004, 06:11:36 PM
>Even as an infant, you CANNOT control how she responds to
>anyone or anything.  You cannot MAKE her 'adjust'.  

I realize this, hence the quotes from my earlier post stating I wanted to "help HER through it" and I asked for ideas on "what can make this process easier for her".  Never did I state that I wanted to force her to adjust.  

That is
>something only SHE can learn on her own.  You wonder why she
>responds the way she does when you're not there?  Because
>you've always 'rescued' her when you are there.  She's fussing
>becaue you're not 'rescuing' her.

Several people with children of their own, PhD's and published studies and papers to their credit have all given me a very different account for what is going on than you just described.  Forgive me for doubting, but I really don't think that what you propose is the best way to go about things.
 
>
>The one thing I've learned, from my own son and all the many
>children I've babysat, is that each and every one of them is
>different and they all have their own ways of doing things.  I
>could 'assist', by going with their cues, in helping them thru
>the adjustment process, but the bulk of it they had to work
>thru themselves.

By providing a safe and secure start for children, they learn that the world is a safe place.  This foundation provides them the security and self-confidence to venture forth when it is developmentally appropriate.  If they learn that it is an unpredictable and scary at times, they become insecure and doubtful...causing them to venture uncertainly into the world before them.  The first 18 months is the most critical time for this developing sense of trust/mistrust, security/insecurity.  Yes, it may be a pain to "rescue" her at times, but in the long run, I am confident that it will pay off.

>
>What are you going to do when she goes thru separation
>anxiety?  Because what she's experiencing right now doesn't
>even come close.

If I continue going the way that we are and she continues to grow in a secure manner, I do not anticipate there being any significant traumatic events that we will not be able to overcome.

  DS went thru a MAJOR episode when he was 4,
>caused by his father taking him away from me for 6 weeks.
>After I got him back, I had my heart ripped out on a daily
>basis leaving for work, when he would stand at the door and
>SCREAM 'Mommy, don't go, don't go!'  What was I to do, not go
>to work and hold him all day?  That would only postpone the
>inevitable and make the pain last that much longer for him.
>Unfortunately, as heartbreaking as it was for me to watch and
>endure, he had to suffer thru it himself.  And he did, there
>was just no other way to get thru it.
>
Yes, I realize that must have really sucked for both of you and I'm sorry you had to go through that, but at four years, your son also had the advantage of language.  You had the ability to tell him that you would be back at a given time or that he was safe, etc.  Infants don't even have that saving grace.  The only thing they have to go by is our actions.  Have we always made their world a safe place?  Can they trust that we will always keep them safe and take care of them?  If they have been exposed to negative situations or traumatic events, this sense of security will be greatly diminished.  Without a verbal reassurance that things WILL be okay, what DO they have?  If they have been placed in nerve wracking, scary situations, why should they trust at all?

>Question:  has she had any contact with any other men?  Men
>who maybe aren't as comfortable with infants as her daddy?
>How does she react with them?  The Same?  We had a family
>friend who adamantly refused to hold DS when he was an infant,
>saying he knew nothing about them.  One time, I literally
>thrust DS in his arms, just to see how the both of them would
>react.  I've still got pics, too!  Our friend looks stiff and
>uncomfortable, only because it was strange to him.  And DS
>even at a month old, could tell the difference and was fussy.
>But they BOTH did just fine.  It's called 'adapting' and NO
>ONE can teach that or guide it.  It is something only the
>person experiencing it can deal with and work thru.  And one
>of the first lessons we learn as human beings.
>

Yes she has and she has always been fine around them, but I'm not certain how she is away from me.  Don't think she has had much exposure there, but her father isn't uncomfortable holding her if that is what you're getting at.  He's been around his sister's kids a lot.

>JMO, but you're setting your daughter up to fail to have the
>ability to adjust to her environment without you for her to
>fall back on.  You said that you 'eased' her into her daycare.
>  You think her pre-school or kindergarden teachers will be so
>accomodating?  I highly doubt it.  

Doubt I will have to once that time comes.  You may think she sounds abnormal, but everything about her is developmentally age appropriate.  It is perfectly healthy for children her age to display these behaviors.  If she continues to progress as she is, I have no doubts that she will be well adjusted at that age.  Additionally, at that age she will have language.  If nothing else, that is a huge benefit right there.

Whether it's with her
>father or anyone else, you need to loosen the reins, for your
>daughter's sake, or she will be severely dependent on
>you......or anyone else who 'shows' her love and comfort.
>Think about how this would affect her in her teenage years.
>She would be a sitting duck for some smooth-talking idiot,
>male or female............
>

A child who cries or is not attended to in a prompt manner tends to develop the belief that they are rejected or not worthwhile.  These children develop low self esteem and will seek out attention or a feeling of acceptance.  So, when that same smooth talking idiot comes along and tells her that she is beautiful and special, well, I'm sure you can see where that one leads.

>All your child psychology books don't come close to real life
>and bringing up children to be self-reliant.  

She is not my only child.  I've got two older boys who were raised in similar manners and are two of the most secure, outgoing, self assured individuals you could ever hope to meet.  They are observant and considerate of the feelings and opinions of others, well-liked by their teachers and peers, happy, itelligent, secure children.  So no, it is not all book knowledge here.  I've seen it work both times with my older boys.  I'm not making this up as I go.

And by the way, there is a HUGE difference between independent and secure.  An overly independent adult may look like a wonderful person that the world can never tear down and one that will never fall because they can hold themself up....  Believe it or not, these are some of the most dysfunctional and miserable people.  Independent can be good, but an extreme is indicative of some real problems.  Forcing children to be independent too early on harms them during this critical time and can lead them ito a life of misery.  Believe it or not, many of these women end up in domestic violence situations.  

JMO, but I think
>that is one aspect that, in the last 20 years or so, many
>parents have failed in, along with not learning to say 'no'
>often enough.  These are lessons they MUST learn at home,
>because if they are forced to learn it in the real world, they
>will be chewed up and spit out.

She has limits and boundaries as are age appropriate.  My boys do as well and are extremely well behaved, both at home and away.

  You are not raising a child,
>you are raising an adult.  Never forget that.

Yes, and in the process of raising an adult, we must make certain that they have a strong foundation.  I can't push her out the door today and tell her to go get a job.  There's quite a few steps between here and there.  Infancy and childhood happen to be pretty big steps.  When building a house, the final step may be to shingle the roof, but that doesn't mean I should rush the rest and do a piss poor job laying a foundation and framing just so I can raise the roof!  Would you try to force a 3 day old infant to walk, as that is the ultimate goal?

So ONCE AGAIN... this is the way that I feel I need to do things.  I am not making an uneducated decision on this matter and no amount of negativity or disagreement from someone with no established credibility is going to make me do something that I feel is wrong for my daughter.  Therefore, the way that I am approaching this is not up for debate.  Given that this is the way I have chosen to approach the matter, if anyone has sugguestions on how to help ease the transition, I'd appreciate them, otherwise, feel free to post your opinions elsewhere.  I'm not interested in them.
Title: RE: YOU CLAIM TO BE OPEN FOR SUGGESTIONS, HERE'S ONE
Post by: RainGirl on Oct 01, 2004, 06:19:29 PM
At this point, I am becoming more and more convinced that the individuals here are well intended but many of them un or under educated when it comes to the needs of children.  There are many fanatics who without a shred of true knowledge feel compelled to spew all their advice and opinions, potentially doing more harm than good.  I had originally hoped that some of you may have had experience with this subject.  A few wonderful ideas have come forth and I haveput several of those to use and am currently working on others.  If I had the ability to screen out the fanatics blinded by their self-serving missions and uneducated, harmful opinions, I'd happily send him this way to see if he could gain something helpful.  However, since that does not seem to be a possibility, I wouldn't count on seeing him here anytime soon.  At least not by my doing.
Title: RE: you see thats the thing
Post by: RainGirl on Oct 01, 2004, 06:22:09 PM
Well, however you choose to view it, I refuse to put his wants or feelings above her needs.  This is a critical age for infants and to screw her up now in the way it has been proposed invites a lifetime of pain and dysfunction.
Title: RE: you see thats the thing
Post by: Stepmom0418 on Oct 01, 2004, 06:49:14 PM
NOT having a relationship with her father  and being alienated from him also invites a lifetime of pain and dysfunction as well!!!

Your daughter deserves to have a relationship with her father that is not under your control and manipulation!

Title: RE: you see thats the thing
Post by: RainGirl on Oct 01, 2004, 06:54:27 PM
And I see this as a step toward that.  Things will not always be this way, but in order to do them well, it will take time.  Yet it seems many here believe I should pluck her from one devastation and throw her to another.  I fail to understand that concept.  
Title: RE: YOU CLAIM TO BE OPEN FOR SUGGESTIONS, HERE'S ONE
Post by: Stepmom0418 on Oct 01, 2004, 06:54:41 PM
You just proved everyones point here!!

You want to be in control and that is why you wont send him here. He might like someones advice and you might disagree!!

This is not about you and how you feel, this is about a father daughter relationship!



ps. if this father came here we could actually here both sides to this story and I am sure that we would find that his story is a lot diffrent than your story!!
Title: RE: you see thats the thing
Post by: Stepmom0418 on Oct 01, 2004, 06:59:44 PM
Is the father abusive? on drugs?

If not then there should be nothing that should prevent the father from taking this child even if it is for a few hours to start! He needs to be able to show the child, without you being there for her to fall back on, that she has a loving and trusting father as well as a mother.
Title: RE: YOU CLAIM TO BE OPEN FOR SUGGESTIONS, HERE'S ONE
Post by: RainGirl on Oct 01, 2004, 07:00:33 PM
Or that the situation is already tense enough without a bunch of bad advice from a bunch of well intended but out of control fanatics who don't have a clue
Title: RE: you see thats the thing
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Oct 01, 2004, 07:01:37 PM
IT IS CALLED PARENTING.

You did not get pregnant by yourself. He wants to parent, let him. You have no problems leaving this child with strangers...
Title: RE: you see thats the thing
Post by: RainGirl on Oct 01, 2004, 07:19:10 PM
I have never left her with a stranger.  I have taken steps to prevent her from a situation like that.  I do not abandon her with those se is not comfortable or familiar with, nor to I have any intentions of doing so.  If you have any ideas how to help warm her upto her father and speed the process up, then fine, but the process itself is not up for debate here.
Title: ICEGIRL HASN'T CHANGED
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Oct 01, 2004, 07:43:27 PM
That is the problem, her father will always be a stranger.

Wait until she is older and see your choices at work...


"Children learn what they live"
Title: EXCUSSES! EXCUSSES!
Post by: Stepmom0418 on Oct 01, 2004, 07:54:20 PM
Everyone has one but you seem to have MANY!!

I will be interested to hear how this child reacts to knowing that her mother, that loves her so dearly, interfeered in the relationship between her and her dad.

You better HOPE and PRAY that this doesnt come back to bite you in the a$$ in the years to come!!!

AND I hope you are able to live with what you are putting your daughter through!
Title: This out of control fanatic...
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Oct 01, 2004, 08:20:48 PM
Will spend time on important, real issues.

I wish you and your little girl many blessings. I hope someday the father will be allowed to enter her life. To be a parent. In all of this mess, maybe somehow, somewhere you understand where we are coming from. Alienation is a way of life for so many here. Maybe that's why we understand this more than you care to admit.

Take time to reread the posts and use the suggestions given. The only thing to come out of it is a better awareness for the sake of your daughter.

If you ever find time, look into some of the books that are devoted to something called 'Tough Love'.

Being a Parent is a life time of sacrifice. Sometimes we have to do things that we disagree with, but it is best for the child in the long run...

That is why we are all here. I hope you find it in you to do the right thing.


"Children learn what they live"
Title: rain girl you have my total support
Post by: piXi on Oct 01, 2004, 08:53:29 PM
I think you are dealing well with a difficult situation and that you have your daughter's interests at heart.

I do believe   you are helping your daughter's father integrate himself in her life and I believe you are dealing with the posts here with gentle dignity.

have you read anything by Penelope Leach on babies?

I love her thoughts and her ideas on raising babies - her book became my manual with my own children.

In my opnion people dont get relationships with children by right - they have to work at them and earn them through the development of layers of trust.

If her father loves her he will be guided in the development of hs realtionship with her and if that means he has to lie on  the floor in your living room allowing her to crawl over him in the company of her other family then thats the way  it should begin.

How much better to work it like that so that within a relatively short time she is running to the door to meet him when he arrives than to have to deal with her crying because she doesnt feel safe.

In my own situation my xh brought our daughter home at  1230am one saturday during  her time with him. She had woken up in tears saying she missed me and didnt feel happy or safe in his house at that moment.

She slept in her own bed and rang him as soon as she woke. he collected her and took her back to his house for breakfast.

Times like that didnt happen so very often but when they did we dealt with them on her terms.

A lot of these incidents were very difficult for me because my xh left us to go and live with his secretary and later married her.

I have worked hard not to intrude my pain into their relatioship with their father and with her and whilst it has taken a long time  - it has worked.

Finally - and Im sorry this is so long - trust your own instincts and your knowledge.
Title: RE: rain girl you have my total support
Post by: RainGirl on Oct 02, 2004, 12:19:14 AM
>I think you are dealing well with a difficult situation and
>that you have your daughter's interests at heart.
>
>I do believe   you are helping your daughter's father
>integrate himself in her life and I believe you are dealing
>with the posts here with gentle dignity.

Thank you much for your kind support.  I do not doubt that this is what my daughter needs at the moment to help her to progress beyond this.  It's not forever, but the groundwork laid here will last forever.  I'd prefer that her relationships were grounded on comfort and security rather than fear and distress.  She is getting better and better and stays wth him for longer periods of time, so I have no doubt that we have progressed greatly.  I think he is starting to see it too now.  After her first couple of explosions with him he has backed off and stopped asking about taking her on his own.  Gotta give that little girl credit.  I could tell him she needed time until I was blue in the face and he wouldn't have listened.  SHE told him once and he backed down.  They'll get better and eventually do well  together.  It just takes time.

>
>have you read anything by Penelope Leach on babies?
>

A couple...a book called Children First, What We Need to Do and Are Not Doing for Our Children...or something like that.  Sorry, I don't remember the exact title.  She also had another good one that focused on early infancy, the first six months.   I know she had several othes, but I didn't have the pleasure of coming across them.  I liked much of what she had to say.  She's got a wonderful style and is good at describing the world from a child's perspective.  She's direct and isn't wisheywashey on her opinions.  She did leave me feeling a bit guily for resorting to daycares, but I don't think that was her intent.  All in all, I thnk she is well written and very much in tune with children.

>In my opnion people dont get relationships with children by
>right - they have to work at them and earn them through the
>development of layers of trust.

Well said!

>If her father loves her he will be guided in the development
>of hs realtionship with her and if that means he has to lie on
> the floor in your living room allowing her to crawl over him
>in the company of her other family then thats the way  it
>should begin.
>
>How much better to work it like that so that within a
>relatively short time she is running to the door to meet him
>when he arrives than to have to deal with her crying because
>she doesnt feel safe.

There are many times when I would love to have a few hours by myself to clean or do homework.  The bitter part of me hopes that if she screamed at him enough and made his life miserable enough, maybe he'd go away....  (There was a lot of abuse in our relationship and it's stll painful to be around him.)  But when it comes right down to it, I shudder to think of what being that distressed for that length of time would do to her.  So for now, I make him dinner several nights a week.  I give up my bed to him a couple nights a week (she sleeps in my bed..another thing Leach was big on!).  He has two days a week when he is supposed to go to her school to bond, but he never shows up for that.  

>Times like that didnt happen so very often but when they did
>we dealt with them on her terms.

It is encouaging to see parents who are willing to commit to child-sensitive parenting.  It seems to be far too rare.

>
>A lot of these incidents were very difficult for me because my
>xh left us to go and live with his secretary and later married
>her.

Neutering...it not just for your dog anymore!  

>
>Finally - and Im sorry this is so long - trust your own
>instincts and your knowledge.

I think I have you beat!  I'm good at babbling!  And once again, thank you for your words of support and encouragment.  
Title: You are so right..
Post by: MYSONSDAD on Oct 02, 2004, 07:12:37 AM
I call it excuse-abuse. Icegirl had her mind made up before she came here. The only way this baby will bond with the father is some good one on one. She does not want to listen. She is only trying to justify what she is doing.

Many here have given her some good suggestions and also told her the consquences of her actions. She wants attention and pity.

Should be interesting when this child goes to school. Bet Icegirl is sitting right along with her in the classroom.

I am done with her. My time will be spent going after the issues at hand. Won't waste my time on someone who does not 'get it.'

If the shoe was on the other foot, how would she feel?

Hope the daddy finds Sparc. I am sure he would get a good response on how to help build his relationship with his daughter.

I for one, will be watching for him...

"Children learn what they live"
Title: RE: You are so right..
Post by: Stepmom0418 on Oct 02, 2004, 07:43:41 AM
I agree it is abuse and I too am done talking to her because she does NOT get it at all!!

I too hope the daddy finds Sparc and i will be watching for him too!!

She is only afraid that we might give him useful information so that he can have a meaningful relationship with his daughter...........thats why she wont send him here!!
Title: bump
Post by: Peanutsdad on Oct 02, 2004, 02:30:12 PM
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Title: RE: bump
Post by: Peanutsdad on Oct 03, 2004, 05:15:06 PM
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Title: RE: YOU CLAIM TO BE OPEN FOR SUGGESTIONS, HERE'S ONE
Post by: richiejay on Oct 04, 2004, 09:16:10 AM
>Or that the situation is already tense enough without a bunch
>of bad advice from a bunch of well intended but out of control
>fanatics who don't have a clue


Guess that's why you keep coming back, huh?

I think you are afraid that people here may give him advice that will piss you off but ultimately good for your child.
Title: RE: bump
Post by: Hawkeye on Oct 05, 2004, 08:28:21 PM
how about just letting Dad be Dad? Giving birth does not automatically give parental rights, eh?

Is that like some foreign concept or something?
Title: from the Dads side , I went throught this !!
Post by: gipsy on Oct 07, 2004, 10:13:48 PM
My situation was different , The mother refused to let Me see My son and I had to take her to court !! And I did and I won again and again , In little increments , But < Here Is what I learned , First Part of what You say  is true part of it corresponds with what happened to me , And part of it is just You worrying , I 'worry to leave My son with any one , But I will outline the process and you will see how it corresponds ,
   1 Got a court order  that said two hours twice a week .with  A paid supervisor , The supervisor explained to me the reason they do this , And [Not] use any one familiar with the child , Is because of exactly whats happening , Supervisor said if we used  Moms  family or friends that would be unfair , Because then the child has a familiar face to go to , And does not give Me an equal chance , Because,   My son will cling to the familiar faces , SOOOO , Yes it is hard , BUT thats how it was done << And even after the supervied visits [5]  I had to pull  My son from the mom numerous times  ,, And He was screaming and kicking , The twist in my situation is, I found later when He began to talk was that , Mom was trying to aid in His terror at the transfer , By telling him I was going to hurt Him .   ,  My son always quit crying As soon as Mom was out of the picture , , As time progressed , He would do the same when returning to Mom , Be prepared . The child may not want you soon iether , . Of course when this happens we frantically think of what to do , I would give My son candy At the transfer , Have your ex give The baby a piece of kid safe candy , This was the answer , And I would hand Him a lollipop And poof all better , Whatever you do don't make this a legal issue , You are doing great , But I would recommend the court way , Have like a counselor there or something And tell your ex lets just try it with a counselor , You will have to pay, But . it will be worth it , That way you know the baby is safe ,But again I believe a familiar face is unfair to dad , Have him read this post , You both are  doing great to agree and solve this on your own , , Also Dad should be showing up with all the stuff the baby eats , Like a graham cracker . Bottled milk , Juice diapers .etc . I had to do this , And all this was reported to the court etc , I agree , . I wanted to parent My son and had to have things for him, My other Idea Is  put a parenting plan In place that outlines the process , And times of pick up , That way this is organised and there are certain times he will have the child and you can begin to rely on him , But the deal is , YES this is hard when this happens , Maybe try leaving the room , And leave him alone with the baby to feed etc , after all this occured with me . My son began to bond with me , And this continues ,
   What you are going through is just a hard part of life ,But Even the sick Mother of My son went to a counselor and the counsellor told her to give me My son and walk away , And she did , Because she knew that I would hold her in contempt if she did not give Me my son, eight months is pretty young , And NOT In My case, or yours, do children know who there father is if they haven't seen him from birth , But You will have to let go , Try it for a half hour , then an hour etc , You say the baby lets him hold her while you are there , , It's really great that you two can work this out !!! . So ask Him to come over and you will start By walking out of the house for a half hour , I would say this gives Him and the baby some time .  And tell him that way He will know if the baby will cry the whole time when he takes her , It will be very hard for you but you will have to trust me on this one My son ALWAY'S  quit crying a few minutes after mom was out of site , BUT , I had to learn to play Baby peeka boo, and all that silly stuff with rattles and shiny things , And Because of the supervisor , And court process Looking at Me I had to parent ,That Means show that I will change a diaper , Feed , Burp All that  fun stuff , Again let your ex read this , I thought the court process was humiliating at first , Because I felt like a criminal ,Because there had to be a  Paid supervisor that reported to the court ,But this procees seems to work out Ok , Again I say, It probably is a deterent to bonding when you or familiar people are there , But Again My case was very different , There was no chance of cooperation ,    You Two ARE cooperating , And just keep it up .
Title: I agree with TGB
Post by: gipsy on Oct 07, 2004, 10:36:27 PM
Think of it !!You at one point had to leave the child with the day care , and I bet she cry's . and then she gets use to day care , I Have read some of your responses to other people in this , And you say some good things . And Your doing good ,But on the other Hand considering the fact that You had to leave the child at daycare , your logic doesn't correspond . And You probably have some control issues with the Dad ,  This is not so abnormal for someone in your situation , But I really think TGB hit the nail on the head , The mother of My son Still does a bunch of crap , And I can see already that My son will want to live with Me , , And Don't you ever forget this . Some time in Life the child will reject you , Wether its when she's a teenager , Or when she want's to stay longer at Dads . Stop worrying about Big male ego , pride what ever , My son has rejected Me , And it hurts , But I know he loves me overall, I also know that even little children learn to manipulate ,Like as time went on And I would give My son candy ,  He began to ask for Ice cream on the way Home . Then If I did not get it for Him He would start Saying his mom was doing something Or saying some crap and , Ask for ice cream again , Then He even tried to tell me If I didn't get Him Ice cream He was going to go to his moms house and never come back to see Me again