Messages

HANDS

An old man, probably some ninety plus years, sat feebly on the park bench. He didn't move, just sat with his head down staring at his hands. When I
sat down beside him he didn't acknowledge my presence and the longer I sat, I wondered if he was ok.

Finally, not really wanting to disturb him, but wanting to check on him at
the same time, I asked him if he was ok. He raised his head and looked at me and smiled.

"Yes, I'm fine, thank you for asking," he said in a clear strong voice.

"I didn't mean to disturb you, sir, but you were just sitting here staring at your hands and I wanted to make sure you were ok," I explained to him.

"Have you ever looked at your hands?" he asked. "I mean really looked at your hands?"

I slowly opened my hands and stared down at them. I turned them over, palms up and then palms down. "No, I guess I had never really looked at my hands," as I tried to figure out the point he was making.

Then he smiled and related this story:

"Stop and think for a moment about the hands you have, how they have served you well throughout your years. These hands, though wrinkled, shriveled and weak have been the tools I have used all my life to reach out and grab and embrace life. They braced and caught my fall when as a toddler I crashed upon the floor. They put food in my mouth and clothes on my back. As a child my mother taught me to fold them in prayer. They tied my shoes and pulled on my boots. They dried the tears of my children and caressed the love of my life. They held my rifle and wiped my tears when I went off to war. They have been dirty, scraped and raw, swollen and bent. They were uneasy and clumsy when I tried to hold my newborn son. Decorated with my wedding band they showed the world that I was married and loved someone special. They wrote the letters home and trembled and shook when I buried my parents and spouse and walked my daughter down the aisle. Yet, they were strong and sure when I dug my buddy out of a foxhole and lifted a plow off of my best friends foot. They have held children, consoled neighbors, and shook in fists of anger when I didn't understand. They have covered my face, combed my hair, and washed and cleansed the rest of my body. They have been sticky and wet, bent and broken, dried and raw. And to this day when not much of anything else of me works real well these hands hold me up, lay me down, and again continue to fold in prayer. These hands are the mark of where I've been and the ruggedness of my life."

"More importantly though, it will be these hands that God will reach out and
take when he leads me home. And He won't care about where these hands have been or what they have done. What He will care about is to whom these hands belong and how much He loves these hands. And with these hands He will lift me to His side and there I will use these hands to touch the face of Christ."


No doubt I will never look at my hands the same again. I never saw the old
man again after I left the park that day, but I will never forget him and
the words he spoke. When my hands are hurt or sore or when I stroke the
face of my children and wife I think of the man in the park. I have a
feeling he has been stroked and caressed and held by the hands of God. I,
too, want to touch the face of God and feel his hands upon my face. Thank
you, Father God, for hands.

thanks

And remember that when you mix water and dirt you get a fantastic material called mud.

And when waking trails with a 4 ½ year old and you encounter a mud puddle,, the best way to navigate the situation is straight through.  At least that's how my son captains the obstacle.  Being the follower I to must stick to his course. :-)

copy/paste from custodyreform.com and responses to CD's outline .

Author: CD (Caring Dad)  @ custodyreform.com

on September 30, 2004 at 10:51:10:

OK, I actually read the entire 43 page complaint. Yep, everything.
First, my compliments to those who took the time and effort to organize and research it. 28 simultaneous lawsuits in 28 states is quite an administrative and organizational achievement.

Of course, this should be considered only the beginning and not the end of the organizational efforts of the NCp movement. There is so much more work to be done, for instance, becoming a potent voting bloc that can not only sway an election, but actually command it. Unless we can install our own politicians into office, the existing politicians won't really play ball with us; they have proved this time and again.

That effort, however, might be the best thing that results from this lawsuit.
I have read it thoroughly, and there are some glaring problems, notwithstanding the expressly stated disclaimer that pro per lawsuits should not be held to the same standard as professional lawyers.
First and foremost, the lawsuit purports to be a class action, yet it fails to comply with even the most minimum standard for that designation, that is Fed Rule Civ. Pro. 23.

See http://www.ord.uscourts.gov/Rules/LR23.htm

The words "class action allegation" have to appear prominently, just for starters. Secondly, there are requirements associated with a class lawsuit; the mere assertion that there is a class is insufficient on its face. Nowhere in the NCP complaint is there any attempt to comply with the requirments of becoming a class. Pretty basic stuff, even for lay people, so the class part of the lawsuit fails right then and there as a matter of law. I propose you immediately amend your complaint to conform to the above stated class requirements.

Second, what relief is being sought, and what remedies can the fed court provide? The relief being sought is primarily injunctive. Though there are allegations of monetary damages in the amount of $1,000,000, merely asserting such damages without further specificity will not produce the desired result. As the relief is primarily injunctive, you have no 7th amendment right to jury trial, so the complaint wastes everyone's time by requesting it. Request denied, I could easily guess.

Third, what is the court supposed to do? Strike down every single statute on the books that is alleged to be discriminatory or detrimental to NCP? Yeah, maybe that would be nice in some fantasy world, but I assure you the fed court will not take such a proactive stance. What you are asking, the court cannot and will not provide. You need to seek redress in the legislative arena, that's what the court will say.

Fourth, back to the money issue. You don't seem to meet the minimum federal requirement of $75,000 in damages per plaintiff. The mere assertion that there are millions in dollars of damages is insufficient, as a matter of law. Apart from passing assertions, there is no other evidence of any monetary damages. Therefore, you will be kicked out of fed court for failing to meet that minimum amount, per 28 USC 1332, diversity question jurisdiction (if I recall correctly). And since you will be kicked out of fed court, guess where you will be heading (assuming the complaint isn't dismissed entirely)? That's right, straight back to state court, even though you have articulated some federal question. However, there is a chance that, since you have at least alleged a 28 USC 1343 violation (without much specificity, regrettably), you might slide on this monetary requirement. I'm not completely sure on this.

Next, at 43 pages, the complaint is way too long. This is known as, pleading yourself right out of court (see Chicago Nurses Association case about twenty years ago, alleging gender discrimination in hiring. Court ruled that plaintiffs had not only failed to state a case, but failed to do so in way too long pleading.)

See also Fed Rule Civ. Pro 8:

"A pleading which sets forth a claim for relief, whether an original claim, counterclaim, cross-claim, or third-party claim, shall contain (1) a short and plain statement of the grounds upon which the court's jurisdiction depends, unless the court already has jurisdiction and the claim needs no new grounds of jurisdiction to support it, (2) a short and plain statement of the claim showing that the pleader is entitled to relief, and (3) a demand for judgment for the relief the pleader seeks. Relief in the alternative or of several different types may be demanded."

This complaint is way too long, particularly considering it fails to adequately state a cause of action upon which relief can be granted, but at the same time "venting" emotively at length about the alleged injustices suffered.
Back to stating a cause of action. This is simple. You take the statute that is alleged to be violated, and you show how it has been violated, in reasonably specific terms, such that a judge could see by a plain reading that a cause of action exists. You don't have to plead with particularity at the initial stage, judges understand that some of the details won't be available until formal discovery begins. However, there has to be some reasonable precision about which laws have been violated, and how, not just a superficial recounting of vague injustices suffered.


All right, I could go on, but you are getting the idea. I suggest you amend this complaint immediately, before a judge even has the chance to rule on whether it is a meritorious claim or not. Fix the glaring problems, or it will quickly be tossed summarily into the trash heap.

Don't get me wrong, i would love this lawsuit to go forward, but i can easily foresee the inevitable result on this one.

Good Luck.

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Author: CD (Caring Dad)  @ custodyreform.com

on September 30, 2004 at 12:12:09:

FED RULE 8 - PLAIN STATEMENT

"There are material violations of constitutional rights of parents (particularly NCP) and their children, done by state actors on a systematic basis, with no overriding or compelling state purpose that would justify such an intrusion into the sanctity of the universally recognized fundamental liberty interests of the family relationship.   Additionally, there are perverse financial incentives written into legislation which tend to exacerbate the foregoing violations."

there it is, plain and simple. Just a bit over 43 words, who needs 43 pages? You think a judge is even going to read it?

Obviously, you could take a few pages to expound on the brief statement, but 12 to 15 pages double space, maximum for initial pleadings.

JMHO. Good Luck.

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Author: Lawmoe @ custodyreform.com

on September 30, 2004 at 13:29:06:

I agree that the lawsuit, though well intentioned, is just a lot of wishful thinking. I have not read the Complaint, but it sounds overly long, rambling and not specifically crafted to address necessary jurisdictional questions necessary in a federal pleading.

Moreover, without seeing it, there are a number of hurdles that it is unlikely to meet. First, there is much more to the jurisdictional problem. Before a federal court can hear a case, or "exercise its jurisdiction," certain conditions must be met.

First, under the Constitution, federal courts exercise only "judicial" powers. This means that federal judges may interpret the law only through the resolution of actual legal disputes, referred to in Article III of the Constitution as "Cases or Controversies

Second, assuming there is an actual case or controversy, the plaintiff in a federal lawsuit also must have legal "standing" to ask the court for a decision. That means the plaintiff must have been aggrieved, or legally harmed in some way, by the defendant.

Third, the case must present a category of dispute that the law in question was designed to address, and it must be a complaint that the court has the power to remedy. In other words, the court must be authorized, under the Constitution or a federal law, to hear the case and grant appropriate relief to the plaintiff.

Finally, the case cannot be "moot," that is, it must present an ongoing problem for the court to resolve. The federal courts, thus, are courts of "limited" jurisdiction because they may only decide certain types of cases as provided by Congress or as identified in the Constitution.

The current lawsuit appears to have problems on all three counts. From what I have read, the Plaintiffs appear to be parents whose custody cases have been decided already. It is not an ongoing issue and, thus, no jurisdiction or standing. Moreover, even if they Plaintiffs were involved in active custody cases, the complaint seems to fail in stating that fact.

You have covered the issues regarding the "Class Action" portion. A case does not become a class action simply because you call it one. Also you have addressed the diversity issue. It also fails as a federal question.

Federal question jurisdiction in the district courts is governed by 28 U.S.C. § 1331, which provides that "[t] he district courts shall have original jurisdiction of all civil actions arising under the Constitution, laws, or treaties of the United States." Federal question jurisdiction will not lie where a plaintiff invokes a federal statute that does not provide a private right of action, or where a plaintiff otherwise fails to make a tenable claim under federal law. Smith v. Kansas City Title &. Trust Co., 255 U.S. 180, 199 (1921).

As a preliminary matter, the federal courts are not, except in rare instances not present in the case filed, proper forums for a determination of domestic relations disputes, including custody rights. In re Burrus, 136 U.S. 586, 594 (1890). See also Neustein v. Orbach. 732 F. Supp. 333, 339 (E.D.N.Y. 1990), and cases cited therein. As a result, the Federal Court is likely to state that the plaintiff's claims concern custody determinations more appropriately left to state courts. Moreover, none of the statutes or claims cited by plaintiff provided any basis for the federal Court to extend federal jurisdiction over the issues in the Complaint.

Suffice it to say that if no specific statutes are invoked by plaintiffs, the complaint fails. If they are, the PLaintiffs must show that the Statute carries a private right of action. It seems that the main tenet of the case is simply that custody is a fundamental right. That is insufficient as a pleading. Instead, a federal law or statute must be cited giving rise to an implied private right of action under that statute.

Cort v. Ash applied four factors to determine whether Congress intended to make a private remedy available under a statute: (1) whether the statute was enacted for the benefit of a special class of which the plaintiff is a member; (2) whether there is any indication of legislative intent to create a private remedy; (3) whether such a remedy is consistent with the underlying purposes of the legislative scheme; and (4) whether a federal remedy would be inappropriate because the subject matter involves an area that is primarily of concern to the states. 422 U.S. at 78.

None of the factors necessary for implying a private cause of action seem to be present in the present case regarding custody.

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Author: Hack  @ custodyreform.com

on September 30, 2004 at 17:01:56:

The current lawsuit appears to have problems on all three counts. From what I have read, the Plaintiffs appear to be parents whose custody cases have been decided already. It is not an ongoing issue and, thus, no jurisdiction or standing. Moreover, even if they Plaintiffs were involved in active custody cases, the complaint seems to fail in stating that fact.

> Ok..That caught my eye. I haven't read the suit yet. Haven't had time. But on the moot part. I am now curious about how many orders out there are temporary vs final? I know I have been in the courts for 7 years now. And only one case (out of three) is final. Yet that does not mean that I cannot reopen the case so to speak. I just have to file a new complaint. So it seems that as long as I am an NCP I still have an ongoing issue.

Wouldn't that be the case for all involved? Just curious.

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Author: CD (Caring Dad)  @ custodyreform.com

on September 30, 2004 at 14:41:16:

justiciability agreed with lawmoe, who expounds nicely on justiciability issues.
don't forget the ripeness issue (see Palazzolo v. Rhode Island), as well as standing, jurisdiction, actual controversy, mootness, etc, in the justiciability question.

Alas, the lawsuit hopefully will generate some positive media coverage at best. Nice try, but it will either have to be severely amended (I suggest start over), or it will most likely fail.

Good Luck.

I respect your opinion Kitty C. .

You have helped me tremendously in my information search so I can submit a bill here in Ohio for joint custody, and your posts are fair.

I will ignore the looser "bigsigh2004".  (had to get that one last zinger in)


If "bigsigh2004" is truly a dad I will be getting down on my knees tonight to thank GOD I was given the father I have!!!!  

My dad has always been active in my life just as I have tried to be with my son.  I have been force to be a NCP and the eX has BPD.  Despite my limited time with my son, I focus totally on him.  The time we spend together is pure quality time.



SOME OF MY GENEALOGY:

All my grandparents came over on the boat and settled in Cleveland.

On my fathers side my grandmother died when my father was 6 years old and my Grandfather raised my father and his sister. That was back around the 1940's.

On my Mothers side my grandmother also died when my mom was 8 and my Grandfather raised my mom and her sister.

Back then there was a huge net work of family and friends and either father could easily have gotten married to help raising the children.  Neither father got married to help them raise the children.  My Grandfather on my fathers side did get married when my dad was 16. My Grandfather on my mothers side did get married but I forget when(mom was older).


My dad is 75 and still plays the button box/accordion – Slovenian.
My mom 77 can still speak her fathers native language- Lithuanian.

I respect your opinion Kitty C. .

You have helped me tremendously in my information search so I can submit a bill here in Ohio for joint custody, and your posts are fair.

I will ignore the looser "bigsigh2004".  (had to get that one last zinger in)


If "bigsigh2004" is truly a dad I will be getting down on my knees tonight to thank GOD I was given the father I have!!!!  

My dad has always been active in my life just as I have tried to be with my son.  I have been force to be a NCP and the eX has BPD.  Despite my limited time with my son, I focus totally on him.  The time we spend together is pure quality time.



SOME OF MY GENEALOGY:

All my grandparents came over on the boat and settled in Cleveland.

On my fathers side my grandmother died when my father was 6 years old and my Grandfather raised my father and his sister. That was back around the 1940's.

On my Mothers side my grandmother also died when my mom was 8 and my Grandfather raised my mom and her sister.

Back then there was a huge net work of family and friends and either father could easily have gotten married to help raising the children.  Neither father got married to help them raise the children.  My Grandfather on my fathers side did get married when my dad was 16. My Grandfather on my mothers side did get married but I forget when(mom was older).


My dad is 75 and still plays the button box/accordion – Slovenian.
My mom 77 can still speak her fathers native language- Lithuanian.

"because this place started as a father's rights site (and still pretty much is, obviously from the lambasting I'm getting)........"

Weird statement coming from a male.


I will say you are the best con-poster I have ever seen!  Does NOW pay you for your services?  If not, they should.  You are damn goooooooood!!!


Thanks for the entertainment.  :-)

You said this board advised you to ".... It wasn't pretty and I admit I pulled out all the stops to make things very hard for her. Stopped paying bills for the house so we were forced to sell, didn't pay child support because I wasn't "ordered" to, the works."

"My children were starving to death my ex was put in a Kook house, but I continued the course and listen to all the free advice I got from the specialist on this board."(ok, I added this sentence.)

AND

you "can't remember what my screen name was on here back then, sorry!"

Yea........Right.........


Liar, Liar pants of fire!
Hanging from a telephone wire! :-)

New! You can read a generic copy of
the main classaction federal complaint.

http://www.indianacrc.org/TheMainComplaint.pdf
(Adobe PDF format, 43 pages, 88KB)



http://www.indianacrc.org/

copy/paste from custodyreform.com


Posted by: Gecko @ custodyreform.com

Email: [email protected]

If anyone else wants a copy,  email me.

The Complaint itself is gender neutral...I did a "search" and the words "father" or "mother" was only used once on page 35 section 121 and in regards to suicides attributed to victimization by the family courts.

Since it can't be printed or copied for easier reading, it's going to take some time to get through it (and check reference points), but so far it appears to be well written.

I think the real problem is going to be the "press" it is going to get, as we have seen with Ms McElroy's article.

 1. It's easy to have multiple IP addresses.  Its done all the time.
 2. You are new, but claim to be old.  Tell me what was your old alias?
 3. Your posts are a mile long, like FleetingMoment
 4. If you do have money, why not hire a professional to help you with this decision.  Why ask a bunch of strangers you do NOT know, and then criticize those who disagree with you.  We are a bunch of KOOKS ya know!!:-)

Thinking about my last statement maybe you're the KOOK.  You are getting advice for the most important area of you life from a bunch of posters, acting like we are some kind of qualified expert.

I did not read through the whole string, but I think I remember you mentioned you are a business owner.  I to am a business owner.  As a business owner you would naturally know that when making a big decision to gather info BUT seek counsel from a specialist.

After this board did you go to your local bar and gather info on how to handle your situation?  Believing there advice was that of an authority.

I too ask questions to get different ideas.  BUT, I would never act on a critical part of my life such as my child, solely based on the answers at a board (or bar).  

Take a parenting class.  I think the question you should ask is – "why am I so emotionally week that I can't raise my child?"  God forbid the mother dies.  

Good Luck and God Bless!!!