PAS

[Kboeds]

Is there any way to reverse PAS that has been going on for years unrecognized? I read the guidelines last night of identifing PAS and although I knew my daughters BF and SM had turned her against me, I didn't realize that the things they had been doing all these years were actually PAS. They have made me an outsider in my daughters life when up to 10 months ago I was the one who did everything with her and they did nothing. She rarely talks to me now and when she does she lies constantly. I don't know how to change it, does anyone have suggestions or know what articles I should be reading?
BTW, my PAS situation is different then what I have read about. This PAS was done by BF and SM while my duaghter has been living with me for the last 14 years. So just because you have custody, doesn't mean that the OP can't do this to your child. I helped them and didn't even realize it until it was too late and now I have lost custody and have only standard holiday visitation. I kick myself everyday and now I can see how they have been doing this for the last 14 years. I wonder what I could have done to change it. I think any attempts on my part to change what was happening over the last 14 years would have only gotten them what they were after earlier.

K

[MixedBag]

Keep loving your child with all your heart.

Call her on the lies when you know you can make her understand what's the truth and that she's lying.

Take her own examples and show her how they just don't make sense.  For example, my son will say he doesn't want to "go away from his home town" over a weekend for more than 5 hours away because that's what the court order says.  Well, I asked him "Then why is it o.k. with you when your dad takes you 6 or 7 hours away?  But not if I want to take you away over a weekend?"  Got him to see that it makes no sense.

I could give you a dozen examples, but hopefully you get the idea.

Most of all -- tell your child and SHOW your child that she is allowed to love her dad inspite of the fact that you two are divorced.  She doesn't have to choose between him and you, SHE gets to have both.  Most parents who use their children also make their children feel like they have to choose one or the other instead of teaching them they can love both their parents inspite of the fact that their parents don't love each other.

[Kboeds]

Thank you for the suggestions. I have called her on her lies and even when I have proof of the lie she still insist she isn't lying. It is quite frustrating.
Example; after she went to live with her BF and SM we had a party for my niece and my daughter went with me to the party. While at the party she told my sister "you know, I can divorce my mom and this family any time I want to" because my sister was shocked by what my daughter said and in the middle of entertaining guest she didn't respond. When I said something to my daughter about making that comment, she swore up and down that she NEVER said that and wouldn't say that cause she doesn't feel that way. My daughter wanted to know who told me that because they were lying and she wanted to confront them herself. A few weeks later I was having a discussion with BF and he said they aren't trying to turn her against me and I said if that is true then why is she telling my family that she can divorce me any time she wants? BF's first response was "I told her she should have never said that" (Busted) Even BF admitted she said it. I got my duaghter on the phone and told her that her dad just admitted she said it, so I knew she was lying. I got a letter from my daughter shortly after that, saying that she never said anything about divorcing me and that her dad lied to me and said she did to keep me from yelling at her. So even when she knows I know the truth, she will say everyone else is lying and not her. As far as things not making sence. What sence does it make that her dad would lie and say she was talking about divorcing me so that I woudln't get upset and yell at her????  Of course I'm going to be upset that the child I have devoted my life to for 14 1/2 years has suddenly decided she doesn't want to live with me anymore and is telling people she can divorce me any time she wants.

Thanks again for your thoughts, it helps to have a place to share this stuff with people who are going through similar problems.

K

[joni]

Here's a concept to read about and familiarize yourself with regarding PAS and the possibility of spontaneous reunification.

http://www.hisside.com/12_19_04.htm

[Kboeds]

Thank you for the additional information, I will be spending a lot of time reading on that site. It is great!!

[BlendedFamily]

A little background:  Shared parental custody in FL... Split 50/50...No CP or NCP.

Our daughter is 11 1/2 and she has been manipulating both her BF and I for years.  The constant.... I don't want to live with you, I don't want to visit you, I don't want to ___________ (fill in the blank).

Although I love my daughter with all my heart, I as a parent am not going to put up with the manipulation and such that she has learned from her BF.  I am understanding now that pre-teen's/teen's have tunnel vision and the majority of the time they are looking out for the best interest of themselves and noone else in the picture.

It truly hurts me to no ends especially when I spoke to her on the phone last night and she told me I was mean and that she didn't want to be my daughter anymore because I told her "No."  I said the awful word "No."

One thing that my parents have been preaching to me lately is that even though you love your children with all of your heart, one day they are going to grow up, let everything take it's course.  I know that sounds dis-heartening but from your post it seems like the same situation that I am in with my ODD... grass is greener on the other side "right now"... that's where I want to be.

[Kboeds]

That is exactly what is going on in our case too. She moved in with her BF and SM last May and in that time her SM has gotten her an acting agent, her navel pierced, a second piercing in her ears when she didn't even wear earings in the first pierching. She was promised her a car with no modifications, and a drivers license with no driving test. That was after getting her a cell phone. The grass is totally greener, but un realistic and she is finding that out now. The original agreement was that she would live with him until Dec 2004, with no legal changes and we would both sign an agreement that no child support would be paid either way. My ex said something about my telling my daughter even if she changed her mind I would not let her come back home. I told him that I have always told her if she wanted to go live with her dad she could but it would not be a back and forth who do I like this week game. I told him that is exactly why I want her to have this time to make sure before any legal changes are made. I told him if she decides to stay with you and we legally change custody, then she is not coming back to my house until after the court order is over. My ex filed for the custody change in July or August and it was final in Oct. So much for waiting, he wanted to make sure I wouldn't take her back if she changed her mind.
 I don't play all the buy me games, I told her after she said she want to go live with them that I would not try to buy her back and I haven't. We had a really good visit last weekend, she actually gave me a hug before going to bed. I haven't had one of those from her in about 10 months, It was very cool!!!

[BlendedFamily]

Yes, I can totally understand.  We are going through a custody mod right now because we have a son that is 8yo as well.  I am fighting for primary custody of our son because he is failing school miserably and needs extra help (tutoring).  I paid for all the assessments at Sylvan and such and to no avail has the Ex agreed to help pay for the tutoring to help our son with his mild learning disability.  I was the one who got him tested, doctor after doctor, speech therapy, you name it...I was the one doing it.  Ex is now offering our 8yo son the "grass is greener" act.  FYI... during the past 6yrs Ex has never paid CS and now since I retained an attorney for my case I found out I could have been receiving CS for the past 6yrs... how ignorant I was during the divorce.

I don't want to stomp on your post with all the 411 but our son has been living with us (BM & SD) for a year and only visiting BF EOW or EO Sunday during the course of the year.

I have already expressed to our daughter that the revolving door stops now.  She is going to be in Jr. High next year so in reality she will have to stay with one parent more than the other due to being in different school districts.

Just keep yourself strong, keep your head up, and cherish those weekends now with her and make the best of it (enjoy those hugs) because guess what?  They will slip, they will upset her one day and finally have to tell her "NO" and who do you think she will remember more when she is an adult... the ones who bought her everything... or the ones who taught her morals and values.  I would opt for #2. :)

[CustodyIQ]

K,

Others on this thread have given some good tips and support, so I won't repeat all of that.

I'd strongly recommend the book called Divorce Poison, by Richard Warshak.

Rather than getting into the debate about whether PAS is truly a "syndrome" or diagnosis, that book addresses causes/symptoms and proactive steps to try to combat intentional alienation attempts.

I found the book to be extremely helpful in making me feel empowered that I can have just as aggressive an approach to fight it as the other side does to advance it.

You can order it from Amazon, and there's a link to it on my website.

Best of luck to you in helping your daughter see the light.

[backwardsbike]

For what it is worth, I think you have your head on straight.  Kids need limits.  they don't like them but they need that.  They aren't mature enough to figure it all out by themselves.

You are smart enough not to be manipulated by your daughter.  I applaud you and I support you.  Stand firm.  She'll want to be with you again before you know it!

[Kboeds]

I need to know what you all think of this. I'll start with a some back ground.
My DD has Cerebral Palsy, I spent the 1st 14 years of her life working with her, working with Dr's and therapist. DD has had multiple surgeries which have required me to take long periods of time off work unpaid. Since the day DD was diagnosed BF has denied anything is wrong with her. I have tried to keep him informed and everything I said went in one ear and out the other. He and his wife have spent the last 12 years telling DD that her disability is either not that bad or non existent. BF and SM never made her wear her braces or do stretches, always told her that I was just being negative trying to hold her back.
Well a couple of years ago I started making inquiries about her ability to drive and what we will have to do when the time comes that she wants to be licensed. In Tx you can get your license at 16. Well BF has been giving me a really hard time and we have had words on several occasions because I have told DD that she will not get a car from me when she turns 16. I can not afford to get her a car and I did not provide a car to my oldest so I would not be able to get her one either. I found out that DD would need to be evaluated to determine her abilities in operating a vehicle, I found out that she would probably need to take a special driving course and need modifications. All of this including the expense was discussed with BF and SM. BF and SM said they couldn't afford to help with the cost. I told DD that I could not afford to pay for it and that she may have to wait until she was 18 so that we could request assistance from the Texas Rehabilitation Commission. My daughter has been very upset that she would have to wait and of course BF and SM fueled her anger by telling her that she didn't need all of that special stuff. They told her that she could be parent taught to drive with no modifications. When DD was around 12, BF and SM adopted two teens, a girl 16 and a boy 4 mo older then DD. DD also has another teen sister at BF home. (SM DD from 1st marriage)

So, while all this discussion has been going on over the last couple of years, the two older sisters at BF's house have gotten their license and their own car at 16. Older brother started getting to drive (practice) when he was around 13 or 14. I told BF that I did not want him or anyone else trying to teach DD how to drive normally because she is going to require the special training and I did not want her to get confused with different instruction.  
I believe the driving thing was a big decision maker for DD when she went to live with BF and SM last May. They told her that if she lived with them she could be parent taught to drive and she would get her own car when she turned 16. By parent teaching her they told her that she wouldn't need any modifications and she would not have to take a driving test with a DPS officer, no-one but her BF who says there is nothing wrong with her would ever know how she could or couldn't handle the vehicle.
When we were going through the custody changes last year I told my attorney I was very concerned about the driving thing and I wanted something in the papers about her being tested by someone other then her BF. My attorney said that he felt it would just add fuel to the fire and he suggested that I contact DD Dr and ask him to submit a letter to the Dept of Transportation stating she has a disability and he recommends that she is tested. That way it would be noted with the state.
I contacted Dr and explained what was going on, he had DD come in 6 mo early for her check up so that he could (just happen) to bring up the driving thing and take care of it. I have never missed an appointment with my daughter and I told BF that although I wanted to go to this appointment, He had to be the one to take her since she lives with him now. BF said he would take her and that i didn't need to be there. If I went he would not and he needed to take some responsibility so I didn't go. Well, as it turns out BF didn't go either. He sent DD with SM, and Dr was ticked. DD condition has worsened since she has been with BF and SM because they don't make her wear her brace or stretch. Dr wants to start treatment to try and correct the problem but couldn't cause SM can't sign for treatment. The appointment had to be rescheduled so that BF would take her. While SM had DD at the appointment, she said that she had been SM for 12 years, and told the Dr that BF was going to parent teach DD to drive. The Dr put a stop to that real quick. He explained that with DD's disability she may not be able to drive and that if they are determined to get her licensed now then she needed to be evaluated first.  Then after hearing why DD needed the additional treatment because of DD not wearing her brace and hearing from the Dr that DD would have special driving needs SM says to the Dr. "we have only been weekend parents we had no idea" NO IDEA!!! you have seen this child in a wheel chair on multiple occasions, I have kept them informed of her progress even though they didn't want to be, they both argued about the fact that she had special needs, then she is going to tell the Dr. they had no idea? Grrrrrrrrr!!!

I know this is really long and I apologize.
DD and I had a good relationship before last April when all this stuff hit the fan. DD referred to time alone with me as good one on one in January then in May said she was scared to be alone with me because I act like the perfect mother in front of other people, but I am really mean to her when we are alone. ??? There was a dramatic change in the way she acted toward me, saying she was scared of me, she wouldn't let me touch her, no hugs or anything. I did not get any regular visitation in the custody change, only standard holidays. During the few visits I have had over the past 10 mo DD would spend most of the time in her room with the door closed, she wouldn't spend any time with me or anyone else in the house. We rarely spoke on the phone and when we did it was brief and full of lies. (on her part) So this is the way the relationship has been for the past 10 months.
SM took DD for her driving evaluation on 2/14 (no BF didn't go). DD was upset after the appointment because they said they didn't know if she would be able to drive. They tried several modifications and DD wasn't able to use any of them very well.  (BF says she FAILED the evaluation)

First of all, I would like to say that is why I was so concerned about her being parent taught. She is as disabled as I have said and even the professionals say she needs modifications and special training, and even that may not be enough.

Okay... so here is my dilemma.. On 2/16 I got a bill from SM for 50% of the evaluation. 3 days later I get a call from DD saying that she wants to come over and spend the night. SM was going to take her to a friends school program near me and DD wanted me to pick her up. I agreed then DD called back and said SM changed her mind and said she didn't want to take DD to the program. I picked DD up and took her to the program then she spent the night. We had a great time together (just like old times) and I even got a hug and a kiss before she went to bed.
WOW... what a change!! but this is good right?
Well DD calls last weekend and ask if she could come spend the weekend this weekend. OMG again!! not only does she want to come over, she plans to spend the whole weekend!
I sent a letter to BF and told him that driving is not medically necessary and that I would not be responsible for 50% of the evaluation, training, or modifications. BF called me after SM got the letter and said I would pay it and that he is talking me back to court to enforce the order and while we are there is going to have the child support increased as well.
BF and SM had lied to DD and themselves when they thought they could get her licensed and it wasn't going to cost them a dime because I was making all that stuff up. Now they and DD know that I was telling the truth and in fact it may be worse then even I thought. BF and SM are trying to claim this is a medical expense so that they can force me to pay for something I said I couldn't pay for when she lived with me.
DD called right after BF and we were talking about her coming over, I asked if she knew about the letter and she said yes. DD said that she was glad that she and I were getting our relationship back and she didn't want anything to mess that up again. She said that she told BF and SM the same thing and that she didn't want to be in the middle.  I said ok. The only thing I have said about it since was to tell her that if she wants to know why I am doing anything they say I'm doing, that I want her to know she can ask me. I told her that I just don't want her to assume what ever they tell her is fact. She said ok.
DD came over this weekend and although it wasn't as long as it had been planned we had a nice time. DD is planning to come over two weekends from now for the weekend too. As I have with all her Dr. appointments I asked if she wanted me to go to the appointment that is scheduled next week. She said she didn't care just like she always does, but then she doesn't want me to know what time the appointment is or anything. (I want it to be something she wants!) Well after I took her home last night, she called and said thanks for letting her come over, she had a good time. I said me too. Then DD said you can come to the Dr if you want too, the appointment is at 12:30. Before hanging up, she said I will see you there.

Question? Did DD find out that BF and SM have been lying to her all this time and I have in fact been telling her the truth so now she feels bad about what she has done and truly wants to rebuild our relationship?
or
Is she manipulating me? for what purpose? maybe she thinks she can get me to pay for it? I can't.. If they can get all their other children cars and licenses, then they can do that for her at their own expense.
I don' t know if I trust her after everything that has happened. She has been hugging on me, she laid in my lap and watched a movie, All very nice, close, bonding stuff.. but why all of the sudden? This change has been as quick as the first. I don't know if I should be on guard or be glad that this is happening.

What do you all think?

[backwardsbike]

HI!

 Wow!  What a story.  You have reason to feel hurt and mistrustful.  It is very hard going thru the alienation game.  Everything you think you know gets turned on its ear.  It's like being in a fun house.

I wish I had an easy answer for you.  But, Of course, I don't.  Life and relationships don't come with easy answeres.  that's for thirty minute sit- coms.  Remember how ward Cleaver and Cliff Huxtable could solve any problem in 30 minutes?  What you have is a new chance at rebuliding a relationship with your daughter.  I would give my right arm for my daughter to want extra time with me!  I envy you that.  

I think you need to take it at face value.  She's spending more time.  It seems to be enjoyable for both of you.  Take that and build on it.  If she is manipulating you , you have the opportunity to "hook" her.  Let me exolain.  Manipulation is a strange thing.  Sometimes people who want to manipulate others fall into their own trap.  So she wants something and starts out manipulating by spending extra time with you.  She ends up finding out that she enjoys it.  So then she spends time with you because she truley wants to.  Sometimes people who manipulate actually want what they atr trying tomake you think they want.  Did I say that clearly enough.  I mean she really wants to be with you.  but she's afarid you'll rejuect her so she tells herself she's gonna manipulate you because then if you do reject her it won't her so much.  Either way you end up with more time with her and that translates into a chance for the two of you to regain your relationship.

You have nothing to loose.  You can't pay for the evaluation anyway!  I would be honest about that up front.  I think I'd bring it up in an off hand way.  Tell her you feel badly about not being able to help.  Let her know you know she must be disappointed in not being able to drive just yet.  Let her know that her ability to drive does not determine your love for her.  Give her lots of positive feedback on everything she does well.  Mostof all, let her know that she is wonderful, special and beautiful just because she's your daughter.

Good luck.  Please don't squander this opportunity because you are feeling afraid.  No one likes to be used, but we use each other all the time.  It is part of the human condition.  Not knowing either of you, I know this is just a guess.  But, I don't think she is using you.  She may have realized she made a mistake in going to live with her dad.  Like my favorite pediatrician always told me, " You're doing a great job, love em and enjoy em.

[Kboeds]

Thank you backwardsbike,
I did understand what you were trying to say. I am really enjoying the time I am getting with my daughter. The best part is it is all her idea. I'm not asking, or making her come.
What I went through last year was the worst pain I have ever felt in my life! I would not wish that on my worst enemy! If not for my dh, I don't know if I would have survived it. I did survive and the thought of it happening again scares me to death.
I ask my daughter if she had spoken to her dad about me going to the Dr appointment, or if there were going to be any problems with me being there and she said NO. I said no you didn't talk to your dad or no there won't be any problems. She said no there won't be any problems. I guess what I'm most worried about at this point is what I'm going to be walking in to. The other fear is that her BF has made if very obvious that if he can put her off on others he will. I don't know if my daughter told them that I was going and so they think I can just take her and they don't have too. Or if she didn't tell them and they will just be surprised when I arrive or what.
I fully expect to get a phone call the day before saying that they can't take her and I need to. (to which my sister told me to tell them NO) If her dad can't take her then the appointment will need to be rescheduled when he can. BF doesn't want her disabilities, he just wanted her away from me (revenge) he thought all the hard stuff was over, cause I took care of that. He has SM take her to all her appointments. SM enrolled her in school, BF didn't even go. SM has taken her to her Dr appointments and the evaluation.
You see, SM and daughter have the same last name so most don't even questions when SM says she is daughters mother. That is why she is able to take her to all her appointments and no-one questions her having the right to do so. Well my daughters specialist has been seeing her for over 11 years. He and all her therapist there know me very well and so when SM showed up they knew she wasn't mom and they were the first ones to say BF HAS TO BRING HER! SM can not sign for treatment, only a bio parent. Finally someone was able to force dad to participate in his daughters treatment. He has only gone to one appointment. I suspect if he knows I am planning to go, he will tell me to take her so he doesn't have to.
He needs to be responsible right?
Well, I don't want to make this long like my last post. Please don't get me wrong. I love my daughter and I am very glad that she is wanting to see me and spend time together. I just can't let her, BF or SM manipulate the situation so that I am again the one taking care of her medical needs. He wanted her and he lied to her and told her she didn't need any of this stuff. So he needs to be the one to deal with it. I know that sounds harsh and it sounds like I am letting my daughter down. I just keep reminding myself, that it hasn't been that long, they all need to get a taste of what I have lived for 14 years and allow my daughter to see that I never tried to trick him into taking care of things or threatened to take him back to court just because my daughters needs cost me money or lost me money as the case usually was.

I'm rambling again.... Just scared is all, as sad as that sounds.
I will follow your advice and just enjoy the times we have together and try not to stress about the bridges I haven't gotten too yet.

[Kboeds]

Just wanted to update after the appointment.

I was SHOCKED!! when I arrived for the appointment, daughter was there with dad (BF). He didn't find a way to make me take care of it as I thought he would.

I could tell during the appointment that he was trying to show DD he is being totally cooperative. BF and SM want DD to believe I am the one who starts all the problems, so with both of us there with her, he told me about an upcoming appointment that she has scheduled, and let me see what future appointments are scheduled for the doctor we saw today.

There wasn't much said between us today but for DD we were cordial with each other.

Spoke to the doctor breifly and thanked him for intervening in the driving thing. He said no problem and that he totally agreed with me. Dr said that PT has been keeping him posted.

After I spoke to the Dr. BF went in and requested a note stating that DD needed the special ed drivers training so that he could be reimbursed for it. Dr had nurse write something up for him.

After BF and DD left, I spoke to the Dr again and he told me what BF had asked for. I told him he is trying to get something to say her driving is medically necessary so that he can get reimbursed by me.

So, that bridge has been crossed and I will just have to wait and see what comes of BF threat to take me back to court.  I hope that the sudden change in DD is because she now sees that I have been totaly honest with her all these years and that BF and SM were making empty promises when they told her different.

Thanks to all who responded with advice and support.
KB