What I have learned from trial...

[MYSONSDAD]

Thought what I am going thru may help others, so decided to share what works and does not work, at least in my situation. Your jurisdictions may be different.

Parenting Time Tracker "Optimal" was not even looked at. My handwritten journals in a spiral notebook, is what is being entered. And the judge is looking closely at that. Just very glad I did them both.

On 37 contempts, I only got one on her. They claim written notice was not given. Nothing in the temp order about it being in writing, just said to inform. Up until 4 months ago, verbal had been fine. Ex accepted verbal. I had gas receipts and incident reports where police had witnessed my informing her. I also had other witnesses. My tip, put it in writting and ask for signature receipt return.

Being organized is also helping, my attorney said it shows great concern on the matters at hand. Deep commitment for my sons wellbeing.

All her lies and deceit do not matter. I have back up documentation showing what an evil, vicious, lying manipulator she is. It does not matter. She is lying thru her teeth at every turn, but somehow that counts. Her words are golden.

Another week to go, I will try to post any other things that might help someone else. When this is over, I am totally committed to reforming the injustice. It is a sad state of affairs when evidence can not be submitted due to your statis as a NCP.

The only person important, is our son. Someday, 25 years from now, when he is ready. I will hand him everything. He can look thru and read for himself. If he learns the truth before then, I will leave it up to him to look at all I compiled. Everything good and bad. There was good in the beginning. I want him to know that he was conceived out of love. And that it is the total commitment and deep, unconditional love for him, that has placed me where I am today.

We are pretty well thru the financial end of things. My son was the winner on that one. For that, I am happy...


"Children learn what they live"

[dipper]

Hi, Thank you for posting your findings on this matter.  The court system is very tricky.  I had posted about PAS the other day.  Well, dh's ex has a second job that she just began a couple of weeks ago.

SS has told Dh that he still wants to live here.  He has not talked to any lawyer on his mother's side and does not know if she still has one.  She was always telling dh to contact her lawyer - and dh did write him, but the lawyer never responded, just her.  

Dh's brother did some online investigating and found some traffic records on her - where she was driving without a license.  Same thing she accused dh of last year.  Come to find out, her license was revoked for 12 years.  In the past three years, her landlord filed against her each year for not paying.  Now, she has moved to a more expensive ($200+) apt.  Has lived there for seven months - and has been filed against three times.  The latest - she had a hearing Friday and was ordered to pay over $900...same day she had told ss she was not bringing him down here..............That was for Dec. rent...  They have already filed against her for January rent -and she is to face that in February.  So, it looks like unless someone bails her out, she is losing her apt.  Her troubles began before dh took her to court for a debt she owed him.  She was in court with him one day, and scheduled the next in another county for not paying her rent...

If she does not have a lawyer - I am worried that the judge will go slack on her.  You know - the poor single mother trying so hard.  Hey, I was a single mom for eight years and I still had to pay my bills.  And I only took on what I could afford.  She claimed to be making big bucks last year in court - and yet, she is not paying her bills.  It makes us wonder - she usually dates people that are druggies.  One of the babysitters told ss that she is a recovering drug addict....

And by the way - how far back is relevant.  The babysitter that used to be on drugs, and lost her baby to her mother a month ago, has three pages of dealings with the law - from larceny, trespassing, to no dog license........but, they are all 4+ years old.  

Also, the guy dh's ex was having an affair with - also has a record for breaking and entering and assault - but that is almost 10 years old....

I wish you the best.  I can tell how much time you have invested into learning the ins and outs - its obvious you love your child...
 

[c_alexander]

I have been where you are, and sometimes even the best documentation and such still don't ge tthe attention of the courts. I am sure I could show video tape of my ex wife shootign heroin in front of my daughter and they wouldn't care. As it stands I actually had her admit in court to being a permiscous woman who was not setting the proper role model for our daughter. the judge even made mention of the fact that her lifestyle was not the best for the child...but he let her move away with my daughter anyways.

I was not as smart as you. Had I documented EVERYTHING as you have from the beginning there is a very good chance I woul dhave my daughter now. I was in a very emotionally fragile state having walked in on my ex cheating on me. If it were not for my daughter I doubt that my ex or I would be breathing today. Not trying to sound dramatic just stating fact.

After the divorce I learned my lesson and a the advice of my new attorney 9after double checking the legality of this in Indiana) I began documenting everything. Audio taping phone calls, saving all correspodence and phone calls. Tape recording the outcome of any conversation we had which I could not record using a small micro cassette recorded. You name it, I have tried to use it to document it all. most of the time trying to get her to admit she did this or that and slowly building up a good case against her.

As you said mysonsdad, the courts really do not take into consideration the character of the people involved or if they are even telling the truth. My ex got caught in several lies on the stand and in deposistions...but they seemed to be invisible to the judge. you know what mattered more than anything? The fact that the court broke their own child support guidelines and charged me too much initially for my child support (whichi I proved to them stating the law). This created an immeadiate arrears which I could never get out of. By the time I could pay an attorney and get back into court to get it fixed it was already $15,000 behind. That in my mind is the ONLY reason I do not have my daughter right now. The court broke the law and I suffer the punishment.

Translation for all of you....listen to what Mysonsdad says...document everything, and make sure you are current on the child support!!!

Good luck my friend!

~C. Alexander

[kcjean]

Documenting everything is truly a life saver and we can attest to that!  It took us years to prove the pattern of behavior of Mike's ex but it was those notebooks that really made the case.  Everything was (and still is) written down since Sept. 1999.  We even have a separate notebook for the email correspondence.  While that is not admissable, our guardian reads them and is able to speak on our behalf about them.
We are still using our old notebooks to reveal patterns because the best thing about his ex is she is predictable.  We can always count on her to screw up in the same ways she did before so it is much easier to walk into court and say her excuses for missing this Christmas visit are identical to the July 2002 excuses.  The Christmas one was really nice, she was supposed to be there at noon on Christmas Day and that is what time she called to cancel even though the guardian advised her the week before to let her daughter know.
The really sad part is it didn't phase her daughter because she is so used to it.  It's been three years and her mom has only followed through once.  The ex, of course, failed to let her lawyer know she did this so it was interesting and she definately did not score points with the guardian.  Everything is kept, every letter, every certificate of mailing, the whole nine.  We have a filing cabinet dedicated to this alone.
Our daughter wants to see  the stuff but she will wait until she is grown, we do not want to tarnish her image of her mother andshe needs to make these opinions on her own.
Right before her last visit with her mom she asked my husband a question that blew him away.  She asked him if, when her mom was being nice and acting right, if he trusted her then.  Interesting from a nine year old but these cases make them age must faster than necessary.
KC

[antonin]

This is disturbing about Optimal. I have been using it faithfully for 1.5 years and have not done the handwritten thing. It seems to me a handwritten log can be faked and prepared at the last minute rather than an electronic log such as Optimal which has a time-stamp function.

Was there any particular reason Optimal was not looked at?

What is the nature of your log? What kind of paper, notebook, etc. do you use?

Thanks.

[MYSONSDAD]

I have also used it for a year and a half. We haven't really gotten to the custody part yet. I had a separate folder for the contempts and had my individual sheets printed from Optimal. Had the incident reports and the gas receipts stapled to each page were it was on the date of the optimal.

Once we get to the custody part, I will get back with everyone on how the judge looked at it. At this point, it is not. I think the graphics show a pattern. Shows exactly when she put things into high gear for refusing visitation.

I have also printed off the page where this optimal can not be altered.

I use spiral notebooks, write in pen. I do not skip spaces between dates. Sometimes there are 3 days on one page. This indicates nothing added later.

Another thing others might look at, I have the people around me often, document as well. I think when they testify, it will show the pattern.

It just might be my judge. Every judge is different. There are other MAJOR things going on that I can not "spill the beans" at this point. Will update after all is over.

[MYSONSDAD]

I have documented proof of the lies on her depostion and discover. I made a separate list, with page number and line number. Had them all labeled as exhibits A-Z. With any luck, this will come into play.


"Children learn what they live"

[MYSONSDAD]

Start a thread on what works and what does not work in court.

It would help everyone here.

There are things being submitted, that I really did not think they would be. And other things that should be submitted, that aren't.

But, I have something going on that goes beyond what most are going thru.

When this is over, I will give everyone a heads up...

"Children learn what they live"

[c_alexander]

Mysonsdad brings up a very good point about having others document as well. I did, during my divorce, have my parents do something like that in a sense. I had them write down key evens with dates and times and how they witnessed them. This was during my initial divorce hearings, sadly my lawyer at the time was only interested in money and never used any of them. I shoul dhave fired him on the spot, but I was totally new to all of this. Which is yet another good point. You CAN NOT afford NOT to have a good/great lawyer who is willing ot go the extra mile. My second lawyer DID go that extra mile, but by that time it was already too late.

[Peanutsdad]

In my case, documentation is what did the case for us.

Parenting time tracker wasnt LOOKED at by the court,, BUT it was referenced for testimony. (Actually it was, but the judge seemed irritated by a excel flowsheet that he couldnt immediately understand, so word to the wise,, make it easy to understand)

My daily logbook was also referenced for testimony for dates, times and events not in the tracker.

All the background investigation was looked at by the court. The police reports, the hospital documents ect.

The homestudy was looked at by the court.


It helped that my ex did everything she could to ruin her own case, despite the lies she told in court, LOL, and her refusal to answer questions about her mental health.

[sharptimes5]

We are in Santa Rosa County, FL and all of the logs that we submitted were done in Microsoft word.  Almost none of the log pages had complete sentences, but they were admitted as evidence and sit in the huge file.  We made sure to make copies of the logs for the file, Judge, his clerk, our attorney and my husband's ex's attorney.  Those logs are a major part of how we gained custody of my stepdaughter.
We have separate folders for mail coming in, mail going out, hubby's calls to their daughter, calls to the ex regarding their daughter...each in a different color and clearly marked on the cover.  Even though the ex hasn't tried to contact their daughter in over 2 years we still keep up the logs and print and put everything into the folders with backups on CD.  Documentation of any kindcan really help turn the tide.

Carol

[littlebit]

MSDad,

Thanks for the info, and I'll be looking for the rest when your court is over.  Please clarify if you can:

>>On 37 contempts, I only got one on her.
What made the difference on the one you got?  Was it in writing?

>>All her lies and deceit do not matter....Her words are golden.
How can you tell what matters and what doesn't before it's all over?

LittleBit's Dad

[MYSONSDAD]

The custody end has been put on hold for the time being. I have no idea how I managed to get one contempt. They were all done the same way, Optimal daily log sheet, gas receipt and when I had one, the incident report. Funny thing is, the one contempt I did get, had no report.

My witnesses have not testified yet, that may make a difference.

Because during trial, she is sitting there making comments, nothing seems to be entered after she runs her mouth. I have backup documents to disprove her lies.

After this is over, I will clue everyone in on what is really going on...

[MYSONSDAD]

>When you find yourself the victim of other's bitterness, ignorance, smallness or insecurities, remember, things could be worse....you could be them.<

I like that...

Like you, everything is color coordinated. Makes things easy to find. The attorney is very impressed with the organization of everything and how they relate to other folders.

"Children learn what they live"

[MYSONSDAD]

Have just skimmed the surface of the custody end. With my journals, I am hoping the Optimal will help substantiate the entries.

Still have a very long way to go, I am looking at a 14 day trial.

"Children learn what they live"

[MYSONSDAD]

We have all been ordered back to mediation. With any luck, my files of goodies will now make a difference.

Glad to hear, documenting will hold up. I really don't know what more I can do...

"Children learn what they live"

[c_alexander]

yeah be careful she might be watching you here...you never know. I often wonder if my ex is or not...but then again I kinda want her to see what I write here because I think she would be amazed to see that I was not calling her a tramp or anything...just trying to fight for our daughter and our rights.

I'm in your corner Mysonsdad. wish I could do more, but all I can do is root for you. you seem like a pretty intelligent guy so even if things don't go as planned I am sure you are more then capable of handling it. Fourteen days is gonna be rough, emotionally, physically and financially draining but hang in there.

Best wishes and good luck my friend

[FLMom]

Our case got a little wacky because while we never had the Judge "hear" our trial, he did give us time the day of the hearing
to "work it out" and entered all of that into the court minutes.

I kept a log but used it as a reference only. It was a great help when I notated dates and could refer back to it as "what happened when".

The most notable logs I kept were of receipts. Courts seems to care more about money issues than anything else. I broke it down into groups:

Medical Expenses
School and Classroom Expenses
Clothes and Toiletries
Special Events and Meals Out

Now, the meals out can't be considered support, but it does show that you show an interest and spend quality time with your kids. Bottom line ex tried to say I owed him 10k in back support for the prior 3 years. I started pulling out files. Ex's atty balked, Judge says "OK we'll go over them another day" and ex said "nevermind". Any possible arrears negated. Not that any were possible--how bout 10k in the previous year ALONE that went directly to the welfare of our kids?

Other files good to have:

Proof of volunteer activity in schools.
Medical history for each child.
A school folder for each child.
An accomplishment folder for each child.
An accomplishment folder for you.
E-Mail and correspondence.
Legal history of both parties.
Legal history of any personal witnesses for both sides.
Rental or home purchase history.
Property Appraiser's information.
Income Tax records.
Proof of vehicle ownership.
DMV driving records.

You will probably not need all of these, but you never know WHAT you'll need until you get in there. At the last minute I pulled all of the MapQuest info out of the bulging file only to find us in a ten minute pissing contest about drive times. It's better to have it than not. And have MULTIPLE copies. It's not legal unless all sides get to see it.

Well, that's MY story. And joint custody is great.

Good luck MySonsDad. Let us know the rest of the story when you can.

FLMom

[MYSONSDAD]

Very good information!

I did the Mapquest too, showing not only the distance I drive, but how far she is from our sons doctor.

Another thing I did, was a written statement from my insurance company showing I had no violations or accidents and nothing turned into them for a claim, either on my house or car. Sometimes the courthouse computers only show the year your in.

Your so right, never know what is needed, so put everything in the trunk of the car. If I get a surprise request, I send my gopher out to get it. Did have to make one trip home for something. Learned my lesson after that.

[exwiferuinsson]

>>All her lies and deceit do not matter....Her words are golden.
How can you tell what matters and what doesn't before it's all over?

Didn't matter in DH's case either...mother's words were golden, though she lied through her teeth, made numerous false accusations against myself and father, police reports were falsified, she lied to psychologist, forensic psychologist, GAL and the court. Child sat in room with mother and father in counseling sessions, called his mother out on issues, she lied, he called her a liar, no amount of documentation mattered.
There were medical issues, school issues, child's well being issues...didn't matter. This woman had so many lies going and continuous motions for something new it was ridiculous.

The end result, the had 50/50 all equal shared parenting....court refused any modification, and made a couple of ridiculous orders at the request of the mother......by the way, that she NEVER followed through with!!

[MYSONSDAD]

I hear you!

Mine filed a false RO, lied to the court and evaluator. Nothing seems to matter. I have back up documentation to prove every lie. Have taken each lie separately and made an exhibition schedule. They do not look at it.

When this is over, all my energy will be put into getting shared parenting throughout this country. Children can no longer be the victims in these vicious games.

It may be too late for me, but someday our son will be a father. I don't want him facing this Family Court System.

[c_alexander]

Don't give up hope just yet. Sometimes just because they do not look at a piece of evidence does not mean they do not "consider" it. The fact that you are so organized and that you presented these items of proof as evidence maybe all the judge needs to know. I am not trying to defend judges here...they still suck for the most part..haha. I guess what I am getting at is that sometimes these judges know already when someone is lying. Both judges I went in front of knew that my ex was lying. She did not lie very much, but she did try to say that I hit my daughter. The courts saw right through her claims without me having ot offer any proof.
As difficult as it maybe for you stay calm cool and collected. Present yourself in a professional matter and present your case as best you can. If in the end thigns do not go the way you had anted, or if you feel that the judge was wrong, there is always the appeal process. I know you don't want to hear that right now. Only trying to offer alternatives at this point.
I for one am still rooting for you though. I'll warn you however I am not a very lucky guy so don't count on my rooting to save you..haha.
Hang in there friend. All our thoguths and prayers are with ya.

Chris

[Hazel]

You are absolutely right about that.  DH and I have been married now for 15 years, and have dealt with CS and the courts for that entire time.  SD has been so pas'd that it's beyond ridiculous.  (If we only knew then what we know now... but at the time she was young, there was no such term as "Parental Alienation.")  

DH's relationship with his now 18 year old daughter is non-existent.  She thinks her Mother hung the moon, and Dad is just some stupid jerk.  After a while it becomes more than a person can take, and he's pretty much given up.  There are many people on these boards who say that if you wait long enough, the child will grow up and see the light.  That's not true.  Waiting will get you nothing other than more severe, more deeply entrenched alienation.  The kids aren't going to see the light, because that means rocking the boat at home with Mom.

We're about out of it now.  She's graduating in June, and we're bickering over college support.  Either way, child support is over and she is legally an adult.  But I'll stay active in this arena - actually I'll probably get MORE active, because I know so much more after all these years than I did in the beginning.  I have two boys of my own, and it's so important that this never happens to them.

Any ideas you have regarding getting the message out - count me in.

I wish you all the best in your struggle.

Hazel

[MYSONSDAD]

Your SD might still be too young to understand. She will someday have a family of her own. She may marry a man who has struggled in the family courts. She will someday realize.

I try to post information, when I can. The more we share and pass on to one another, the better educated we become. And the better our chances to make a difference.

But for me, you, your DH  and so many others, PAS is the real killer in all of this...

"Children learn what they live"