Is this considered in contempt?

[pw7285]

I am a NCP living in AZ.  My daughter and her mother moved to IA just over 3 years ago.  She is 7 now and means everything to me.  We have JC and I see her every 7-9 weeks and we try to talk every other day or so.  Recently things have been getting less frequent for various reasons and I am feeling a bit anxious.  I was just up there for a week in early March and since that time have not talked to her very often.  The ex says she is busy, tired, needs a bath, has homework etc...  I understand all of this but it has never been an issue before, we at least talk for 10 or 15 minutes.  The ex is a very controlling, a "thrives on being the victim" kind of person so her life is far worse than anyone else's on the planet...bit of a drama queen.  The ex has a live in BF that my daughter gets along with very well.  I have met him several times and he is a nice guy.  He has 2 girls of his own a little older and is good with my daughter.

The decree states that we can talk a minimum of 3X per week.  This
happens most of the time but not always.  In the past when I have brought up the decree she of course gets angry and defensive.  I guess at this point I don't know whether to look at this as a problem (that I havn't spoken to her) or let it go and continue to call every other day in hope that I talk to her or wait for her to call me.  I have literally talked to my daughter for 11 minutes in the last 9 days!  Extremely unacceptable to me.

Any suggestions or opinions?

Paul

[Ref]

I wouldn't run to the courts. What I recommend you trying is to come up with some dates and times you would be available to call you DD. Then call DD and if BM answers and comes up with another excuse, have her commit to having DD available to talk on one of your future times. Follow up the agreement with an email to her. Keep it light for now. If she doesn't commit, you should send her emails stating when you will be calling to contact DD and to ask her to discuss with you any issues she may have with the times.

Is there any time that DD is home and BM isn't? That was the very best time for DH to call SD.

When you do get a hold of DD, agree on the next time you will talk and shoot BM an email letting her know your intentions.

Good luck,
Ref

[Ref]

deleted

[mistoffolees]

If the decree says that you can talk a minimum of 3 times per week and the ex isn't allowing it, then it is contempt. However, it may be a challenge to convince a court that it's a big enough deal to take action - unless it continues for a while (and you can prove it) or it gets worse.

You certainly have every right to talk with your daughter frequently. Keep in mind that that is your goal - and try not to drag your feelings about your ex into it.

I would suggest:

1. Start recording the dates and times when you call EVERY TIME as well as the result (you talked to your daughter, or what excuse you were given). Keep a good journal.

2. When the ex says you can't talk to your daughter fro whatever reason, ask her when it is convenient. Set up a time when she can agree on (recording your conversation if necessary).

3. If she continues to deny you access, send her a registered letter with a copy of the relevant section of the agreement and tell her you're going to be forced to file for contempt if she doesn't comply.

HOWEVER, beware. She could always let you say 'Hi' to your daughter and THEN say that it's time to hang up for homework, bath, etc, and still meet the court order as you've described it ("Your Honor, there's no grounds for contempt because I did let him talk to our daughter 3 times a week which is exactly what the agreement requires"). There are other ways that she can comply with the order while not giving you any useful conversation with your daughter.

Therefore, you should seriously consider whether you want to make an issue of it. You will probably want to ask yourself if there's anything you can do to get more time with honey rather than with vinegar (such as asking when it's convenient to have your 3x per week conversations). You might even go so far as to send her a note thanking her for her cooperation when she DOES cooperate.

Just a few thoughts.

[MixedBag]

go over to Socrateaser's page and do a search on "elements of contempt".

It's the third one that is difficult to prove particularly in your case since the order is VAGUE.  Yes it says 3x a week, but it doesn't say WHEN during that week.  So it could be 3x in a day and that satisfies that week.

[Jade]

>I am a NCP living in AZ.  My daughter and her mother moved to
>IA just over 3 years ago.  She is 7 now and means everything
>to me.  We have JC and I see her every 7-9 weeks and we try to
>talk every other day or so.  Recently things have been getting
>less frequent for various reasons and I am feeling a bit
>anxious.  I was just up there for a week in early March and
>since that time have not talked to her very often.  The ex
>says she is busy, tired, needs a bath, has homework etc...  I
>understand all of this but it has never been an issue before,
>we at least talk for 10 or 15 minutes.  The ex is a very
>controlling, a "thrives on being the victim" kind of person so
>her life is far worse than anyone else's on the planet...bit
>of a drama queen.  The ex has a live in BF that my daughter
>gets along with very well.  I have met him several times and
>he is a nice guy.  He has 2 girls of his own a little older
>and is good with my daughter.
>
>The decree states that we can talk a minimum of 3X per week.
>This
>happens most of the time but not always.  In the past when I
>have brought up the decree she of course gets angry and
>defensive.  I guess at this point I don't know whether to look
>at this as a problem (that I havn't spoken to her) or let it
>go and continue to call every other day in hope that I talk to
>her or wait for her to call me.  I have literally talked to my
>daughter for 11 minutes in the last 9 days!  Extremely
>unacceptable to me.
>
>Any suggestions or opinions?
>
>Paul
 
Your child just may not want to talk to you at that time.  I know that my 7 year old and 5 year old don't always want to talk to their father when he calls.  And then there are times that he can't get them off of the phone.  

My ex also hears them saying that they don't want to talk to him as I tell them who is on the phone.  I don't know if that is the situation with your child, but it is a possibility.  

[Ref]

to teach the kids that they can ignore their parents. When SD is here we make it a point, out to respect, for her to answer the phone when it is her mom. Even if it is to say that she is tired and will call her back the next day.

I think it is deminishing the importance of the relationship by regularly letting the kid turn his/her back on the phone. I liken it to the kid deciding not to talk to the CP for a week. At some point the CP is bound to get pissed at the disrespect the kid has for not listening to them.

Sorry, this is a little but of an emotional issue for me.

Ref

[cinb85]

But......if the CP keeps pushing and pushing then the child thinks of it as a punishment.  I'm just speaking from experience.

My DD's father doesn't call her much, but when he does, I make every effort to have her take the call (which most times she does after my prompting).  She is 16 years old and he has had VERY little to do with her since she was a baby.  However, I continue to encourage a relationship between the two of them.

When she is not home, he tells me to give her a message to call him.  I give her the message and remind her about two other times, but if I continue to remind her, she takes this as nagging and doesn't want to make the call!

I will never understand why any parent wouldn't encourage their child to talk the the other parent (unless there is some history of abuse or something along that lines), but it does happen.

Maybe the poster should talk to the CP and tell her how much the phone calls mean to him and how much he enjoys talking to his child.  If the CP truly wants what is best for the child, she will start to encourage the child to take the call.

Good luck to the original poster!  

[mistoffolees]

I think that there's a fine line.

One parent should never actively interfere with communtion between the child(ren) and the other parent. Furthermore, each parent should encourage communication with the other parent.

But I don't think it's either parent's responsibility to FORCE the kid(s) to talk to the other parent.  In my view, that starts to open the door to too many control issues on each side.

[cinb85]

nm

[pw7285]

Thank you for your response.

My ex is very spiteful and can turn on me in an instant.  Although my daughter and I have a wonderful and open relationship the ex feels she is in control of it.  If she doesn't think we should talk I won't get to, if she is out playing the ex won't step outside to hand her the phone if even for a minute just to say Hi and let her know I am thinking of her.  She is the epitome of a drama queen and as I have said before, thrives on being the victim.  I find myself at times walking on eggshells to not upset her so it doesn't interfere with my communication with my daughter.  Pretty pathetic I know.


I did get to talk to my daughter last night for just over an hour.  We read a book, talked about school then I helped her get past a stage on her Paper Mario game on the Game Cube.  I found a site that walks you through each stage of the game.  This way I can still play the game with her over the phone :-)

The next obstacle will be our summer visit starting in June.  I asked the ex if it would be OK to have our daughter for an additional 3-4 days on top of the 14 and she flipped.  Said it was too stressful on our daughter and way too much time, 14 days is plenty.  I don't beleive that for a second and quite frankly think it is just another way for her to control the situation.

Anyway, thank you all for your posts.

[cinb85]

I am sorry that your ex is the way she is.  She is not doing your daughter any favors!  Children need both of their parents in their lives.  Just keep doing what you are doing.  Don't ever stop calling just because the ex makes it hard for you!

I only wish that my ex would call our daughter more often.  I suggested to him that he call her once a week.  He agreed!  The last time he talked to our daughter was on Christmas day.  He lives about 30 miles from our house!  He never asks to see her.  Lucky for him that I bring her down to his mother's house quite often so our DD can visit with her grandmother.  He lives with his mother, so he sees her when she comes down (but he has not been there many times when we come down).  You would think that when he KNOWS that she is coming down, he would make sure that he will be there!!!

Good luck to you!

[Jade]

>to teach the kids that they can ignore their parents. When SD
>is here we make it a point, out to respect, for her to answer
>the phone when it is her mom. Even if it is to say that she is
>tired and will call her back the next day.
>
>I think it is deminishing the importance of the relationship
>by regularly letting the kid turn his/her back on the phone. I
>liken it to the kid deciding not to talk to the CP for a week.
>At some point the CP is bound to get pissed at the disrespect
>the kid has for not listening to them.
>
>Sorry, this is a little but of an emotional issue for me.
>
>Ref

My ex understands that kids don't always talk on the phone and actually respects them enough to not try and force the issue (as if you can force a child to talk).  

Now, if a child wants to talk to the other parent and the one that the child is with is saying no, that is wrong.  

[gemini3]

The problem I see here is when young children pick up on their CP's (spoken or unspoken) messages that they don't like it when they talk to the NCP.  This might cause the child to say that the don't want to talk because they think it's what their CP wants to hear, but in truth they really want to talk.  Kids are very, very perceptive.

This is a touchy subject for me too.  I went for months without being able to talk to my youngest daughter on the phone.  I could hear her saying that she didn't want to talk when her mom asked her, but that didn't make me feel any better.  I knew why she was saying it.  When she did want to talk her mom would start playing a game with my other daughter, or turn on the tv, or something of that nature.  This would effectively distract her and get her off the phone with me.  Now my oldest has a cell phone (that I provided), and my youngest calls me on it all the time when her mom isn't watching.  So, I know it's not that she didn't want to talk - it's that she didn't want to talk in front of her mom.  

Children shouldn't be put in this position.  They should be allowed unrestricted phone access to their parents.  This means the parent who the child is with shouldn't send messages to the child by saying things like "You don't want to talk to your dad, do you?".  They should be encouraged to talk, this way the child knows they wouldn't be going against one parents wishes if they talk to the other parent.  This is especially true for young children who sometimes feel "wierd" about talking on the phone in general.  The CP shouldn' hover around the child when he/she is trying to talk to the other parent.

[FatherTime]

In my situation, my daughter was grounded from the phone for calling me.  2 weeks, time with me doesn't count towards the two weeks, so 2 weeks and 4 days.

but what can I do? nothing, absolutely nothing. Hence, we don't talk on the phone.  Our time together is our time.

FatherTime

[mistoffolees]

>In my situation, my daughter was grounded from the phone for
>calling me.  2 weeks, time with me doesn't count towards the
>two weeks, so 2 weeks and 4 days.
>
>but what can I do? nothing, absolutely nothing. Hence, we
>don't talk on the phone.  Our time together is our time.
>
>FatherTime

If your divorce agreement/parenting plan says that you're entitled to phone conversations, then the CP is guilty of contempt. They're not allowed to do anything to interfere with whatever is defined in your agreement.

Just one more reason to make sure the parenting plan is comprehensive and doesn't leave anything to the goodwill of the parties.

[gemini3]

I have learned a very expensive lesson on just how important it is to have a comprehensive parenting plan.

Another problem is enforcing it.  It's one thing to say that your ex is in contempt, it's another one completely to try and get a judge to do anything about it - and she knows it.

[Jade]

>The problem I see here is when young children pick up on
>their CP's (spoken or unspoken) messages that they don't like
>it when they talk to the NCP.  This might cause the child to
>say that the don't want to talk because they think it's what
>their CP wants to hear, but in truth they really want to talk.
> Kids are very, very perceptive.
>
>This is a touchy subject for me too.  I went for months
>without being able to talk to my youngest daughter on the
>phone.  I could hear her saying that she didn't want to talk
>when her mom asked her, but that didn't make me feel any
>better.  I knew why she was saying it.  When she did want to
>talk her mom would start playing a game with my other
>daughter, or turn on the tv, or something of that nature.
>This would effectively distract her and get her off the phone
>with me.  Now my oldest has a cell phone (that I provided),
>and my youngest calls me on it all the time when her mom isn't
>watching.  So, I know it's not that she didn't want to talk -
>it's that she didn't want to talk in front of her mom.  
>
>Children shouldn't be put in this position.  They should be
>allowed unrestricted phone access to their parents.  This
>means the parent who the child is with shouldn't send messages
>to the child by saying things like "You don't want to talk to
>your dad, do you?".  They should be encouraged to talk, this
>way the child knows they wouldn't be going against one parents
>wishes if they talk to the other parent.  This is especially
>true for young children who sometimes feel "wierd" about
>talking on the phone in general.  The CP shouldn' hover around
>the child when he/she is trying to talk to the other parent.


I think that it is a touchy subject for you.  So touchy that you can't see that there are kids who really don't want to talk on the phone when the other parent calls.  And it has nothing to do with spoken and unspoken messages on the part of the parent that they are with.

The only time that I hover is when they are in the bath (sometimes ex calls at inconvenient times) and they want to talk on the phone while bathing.  I do that for safety reasons.  Other than that, I am in or out of the room depending on what I am doing at the moment.

I also have the phone set to ring a special so that they know it's their father and that they can go ahead and answer the phone.

Not all CP's interfere with phone calls or visitation.  I noticed the kid's age and know from experience that they don't always want to talk on the phone.  I was just pointing out that that may be the case here.  

[Jade]

>In my situation, my daughter was grounded from the phone for
>calling me.  2 weeks, time with me doesn't count towards the
>two weeks, so 2 weeks and 4 days.
>
>but what can I do? nothing, absolutely nothing. Hence, we
>don't talk on the phone.  Our time together is our time.
>
>FatherTime

For what it's worth, I think that is very, very wrong.  And I wish that you could do something about it.  

[Ref]

BM has taken the phone off the hook for weeks, hung up the phone when she found out that it was DH, makes faces when SD tells BM about me or DH, taught SD that it is ok to screen calls, blocked email, returned letters, got rid of the cell DH bought for SD, changed SD's cell phone when DH did get the number and call it, blocked our family blog page that we created for SD, blocked our 800 # from SD's cell. In general she has not only physically made it impossible to contact SD, she has made SD know that it upsets her when she talks to DH. This has been going on for years now. She is 16 now and never calls. Never answers messages. She has no respect because she has been taught it is ok to ignore DH.

I am not saying all CP's do this. I hope that the percentage is low. Even beyond this extreme case, I think it is rude and disrespectful to ignore your parents. I am not sure why some CP's can't teach the kids that by teaching the kids how to say to the parent "I'm tired. Can I call you back tomorrow?"

BM allows SD to go weeks without returning calls. When SD is here we never let BM go over 48 hours without a return call, even if it is for SD to say that she is busy. Usually if it is over 24 hours BM calls back screaming and yelling about how DH must be keeping SD from her and how he MUST have SD call back or else. Before that BM will call SD cell phone every hour at least 3 or 4 times.

Are you saying that if SD wants to blow off BM when she is here, we should let her? I think BM would get a little pissed at that. Ofcourse she is always fine doing that to DH.

Ref

[Jade]

>BM has taken the phone off the hook for weeks, hung up the
>phone when she found out that it was DH, makes faces when SD
>tells BM about me or DH, taught SD that it is ok to screen
>calls, blocked email, returned letters, got rid of the cell DH
>bought for SD, changed SD's cell phone when DH did get the
>number and call it, blocked our family blog page that we
>created for SD, blocked our 800 # from SD's cell. In general
>she has not only physically made it impossible to contact SD,
>she has made SD know that it upsets her when she talks to DH.
>This has been going on for years now. She is 16 now and never
>calls. Never answers messages. She has no respect because she
>has been taught it is ok to ignore DH.
>
>I am not saying all CP's do this. I hope that the percentage
>is low. Even beyond this extreme case, I think it is rude and
>disrespectful to ignore your parents. I am not sure why some
>CP's can't teach the kids that by teaching the kids how to say
>to the parent "I'm tired. Can I call you back tomorrow?"
>
>BM allows SD to go weeks without returning calls. When SD is
>here we never let BM go over 48 hours without a return call,
>even if it is for SD to say that she is busy. Usually if it is
>over 24 hours BM calls back screaming and yelling about how DH
>must be keeping SD from her and how he MUST have SD call back
>or else. Before that BM will call SD cell phone every hour at
>least 3 or 4 times.
>
>Are you saying that if SD wants to blow off BM when she is
>here, we should let her? I think BM would get a little pissed
>at that. Ofcourse she is always fine doing that to DH.
>
>Ref


I am saying that the child's wishes should be respected.  Your case is extreme.  And it colors your opinion on the subject.  

I don't think it is disrespectful if a child does not want to talk to one parent when they call.  Especially if they don't refuse all of the time.  

[Ref]

I agree that it does make me more sensitive to the topic, but I also was raised to respect my parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles. If I even hinted at the fact that I didn't want to talk to any of them, I would have had a serious talking to about respecting adults. Sometimes I didn't feel like talking to them, but it was never a punishment, it was a duty. I somehow knew the difference.

I know kids are no longer taught to respect adults the same way. Kids now think it is ok to speak to parents like they are their friends and address adults by their first names. In my opinion, this is why teens are struggling right now with what right and wrong is........ That is a whole other issue.

I agree that kids should have some time when they can excuse themselves and not get too much hell for it, but I think it should be done in a respectful way and not just by yelling in the background that they dont want to talk.

I guess we can agree to disagree on this one.

Best wishes,
Ref

[gemini3]

Ah, Jade.  Seems like I can always count on you to turn an open discussion into an attack.  I don't think I said anything in my post to appear that I don't understand that there are some kids who don't want to talk when their parents call.  I was pointing out the areas that can become problems - and they CAN become problems.

Maybe you should explore why you seemed to think that my post was directed at you.  I don't know you, or anything about your behavior when your kid's father calls them.  I was talking about my personal situation and how I felt about it.  Why did your hackles go up so quickly?  I wasn't talking about you.  

It would be nice to see you offer input an support without having to get ugly about it.

[Jade]

>Ah, Jade.  Seems like I can always count on you to turn an
>open discussion into an attack.  I don't think I said anything
>in my post to appear that I don't understand that there are
>some kids who don't want to talk when their parents call.  I
>was pointing out the areas that can become problems - and they
>CAN become problems.
>
>Maybe you should explore why you seemed to think that my post
>was directed at you.  I don't know you, or anything about your
>behavior when your kid's father calls them.  I was talking
>about my personal situation and how I felt about it.  Why did
>your hackles go up so quickly?  I wasn't talking about you.  
>
>It would be nice to see you offer input an support without
>having to get ugly about it.


You responded to Reply #11.  Which is my post.  Who else would I think you were addressing?

Really, you read way too much into my post if you think it was an attack.  

[MixedBag]

You wrote:  "I know that my 7 year old and 5 year old don't always want to talk to their father when he calls. And then there are times that he can't get them off of the phone.

My ex also hears them saying that they don't want to talk to him as I tell them who is on the phone."

IMHO at 7 and 5 (and even younger and older), the child shouldn't be given a choice.  Just like their time with the NCP, they don't have a choice about that either.  

I never gave my girls a choice and it worked out for the best.  I don't give my son a choice when he is with me.

I tell them "Your dad is on the phone, so let's stop what your doing and talk to him."  

IF they complained afterward, they'd get the speech about how their dad is important too in their lives and they need to make him a priority.  And that usually solves any real complaining.  And next time, they don't complain, they talk to DAD.

Even as they got older, time with their dad was taught as a priority over other things they wanted to do.  And no they didn't resent either dad or myself for this attitude, they thanked me.  Even DAD/EX#1 thanked me after he learned how my son's Dad/EX#2 plays games and didn't put my son on the plane to come to me.  It never dawned on him/EX#1 that I would ever do this or that any parent would ever do this.  And I didn't tell him what happened, the girls did.

I think that's the main rub with all the threads below.

[Jade]

>You wrote:  "I know that my 7 year old and 5 year old don't
>always want to talk to their father when he calls. And then
>there are times that he can't get them off of the phone.
>
>My ex also hears them saying that they don't want to talk to
>him as I tell them who is on the phone."
>
>IMHO at 7 and 5 (and even younger and older), the child
>shouldn't be given a choice.  Just like their time with the
>NCP, they don't have a choice about that either.  
>
>I never gave my girls a choice and it worked out for the best.
> I don't give my son a choice when he is with me.
>
>I tell them "Your dad is on the phone, so let's stop what your
>doing and talk to him."  
>
>IF they complained afterward, they'd get the speech about how
>their dad is important too in their lives and they need to
>make him a priority.  And that usually solves any real
>complaining.  And next time, they don't complain, they talk to
>DAD.
>
>Even as they got older, time with their dad was taught as a
>priority over other things they wanted to do.  And no they
>didn't resent either dad or myself for this attitude, they
>thanked me.  Even DAD/EX#1 thanked me after he learned how my
>son's Dad/EX#2 plays games and didn't put my son on the plane
>to come to me.  It never dawned on him/EX#1 that I would ever
>do this or that any parent would ever do this.  And I didn't
>tell him what happened, the girls did.
>
>I think that's the main rub with all the threads below.


If you want to force your children to talk on the phone (which, btw, I tried.  All they did was not say anything at all), that is entirely up to you.

Forcing kids to talk and visit isn't helping their relationship with the other parent.

And I have found that they are more communicative with the ex when their wishes are respected.  

[MixedBag]

because my kids are now emancipated.

And my step-kids who did a complete 180 from hating their dad to well....  Since we (me as a step-mom), forced them to talk to their mother, they TOO still have a relationship with her.

Yours are young....you haven't see the results of your actions which can only be seen years down the road from today.

[MixedBag]

because my kids are now emancipated.

And my step-kids who did a complete 180 from hating their dad to well....  Since we (me as a step-mom), forced them to talk to their mother, they TOO still have a relationship with her.

Yours are young....you haven't see the results of your actions which can only be seen years down the road from today.

[gemini3]

removed

[gemini3]

There's a huge difference between "forcing" your child to talk, and encouraging them to have a relationship with their parent or teaching them good phone manners.  I agree that sometimes people just don't want to talk, and that's fine.  However, out of respect and courtesy they should at least get on the phone and say that they don't really feel like talking today, and set up another time to talk.  When a child does thie, both parents should respect it.

I'm getting a lot of "us vs. him" vibes from your posts.  I don't know what your situation is, or why you might feel the way you do.  But if I am picking up on it from your posts on a message board, your kids are probably picking up on it as well.