Need help please...

[Ronn]

I am new here and have been reading and decided to register and ask a few questions. Let me also say that I think this forum is a great place for people to get advice from others in the same or that have been through the same situation.
I am on here asking some questions to help my family. I will explain the situation and would really appreciate any advice that any of you may have for me.
My nephew and his wife have been living together for 9 years but only married a very short time. They have 3 children during this relationship. A son age 7 and two daughters age 5,and 4.
The son aged 7 has lived with my parents(the childs great grandparents) ever since he was born. My nephew and his wife were young and lived with my parents when the oldest two children were born and up until the third child was born. At that time my parents(the childrens great grandparents) owned another home next door that they provided for my nephew and his family to move into. The oldest child(boy) never moved out with his parents.
He continued to live in the home of the great grandparents. My nephews wife left him at home on 3-22-07 and asked that the great grandfather take her to school to sign the two girls in because they overslept. The great grandfather had already taken the oldest child that lived with him to school on time that day.
My nephews wife then went into the school and told them she had been abused a week earlier on 3-16-07. My nephew was arrested and taken to jail and she took the kids from school and left with them. She has went to another state where her mother now lives and we haven't had any contact with her or the children since. We obtained the childrens school records and it shows where the were transfered to. We have called her mothers house several times and asked if she has heard from them and that we wanted to know they were ok. She continues to say she has only talked to them once and they said they were ok and she don't know where they are. You could hear the children in the background asking for the phone but she says she don't know where they are.
Can anyone tell me if there is anything that my nephew can do or even my parents since the oldest child has lived his entire life with them as his parents even though they didn't have legal custody?
Is she allowed to just take the children and move them away from the only family and stability they have ever known simply because she wants to. Does the father or great grandparents that have raised the oldest child for 7 years have any options to have the children brought back to their home state so we may see them and make sure they are ok?
We have spoken with a couple of attornyes and have a couple more to speak with because we want the best possible one we can have before we hire one.
Can any of you tell me what we can do legally to get the children back to our state and if there are any charges that can be placed against the mother for leaving the state and not allowing any of us to see or speak to the children.
There have been no custody orders placed on either party since they both lived together and shared custody of the children.
I am sure that she is trying to get everything changed to the state she is in now and get them to give her custody in that state.
Thanks for any help and sorry for the book but wanted to explain the situation as best I could. Again, thanks for any help and advice offered. It is greatly appreciated.

[Jade]

Your nephew needs to file for a divorce and custody, this may force her to come back.   Since she is a legal custodian, she did not break the law by removing the children from the state since there was no court order prohibiting it.  She can't file for divorce where she is until she has established residency.  

[Ronn]

Can she ask for a court out there to give her custody or will the courts here in our home state have jurisdiction?
Also would the father have  a right to go to where the kids are in school and bring them home?

[Jade]

>Can she ask for a court out there to give her custody or will
>the courts here in our home state have jurisdiction?
>Also would the father have  a right to go to where the kids
>are in school and bring them home?

The home state has jurisdiction as long as she has not established residency.

Were any of the kids born before they got married?  Personally, I would go through the court systems to get them back in the state.  Because, whild he can just go and get them (as long as there isn't a restraining order), she can come and get them back.  

[gemini3]

Typically jurisdiction will be determined by where the children have resided for the last 6 months.  

Your nephews wife has stolen his children.  My advice would be to follow the tips found in the SPARC article "What To Do If Your Spouse Snatches Your Children.  You can find it here:  http://deltabravo.net/custody/kidnap.php, or you can go to the articles index and look under "Emergency First Aid".  

Also read this:  http://deltabravo.net/custody/kidnap2.php

There is also a booklet on the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's webiste on Family Abduction, that can be downoaded here:\
http://www.ncmec.org/en_US/publications/NC75.pdf

Call the police and file a report immediately.  Hire an attorney with experience in this area, and ask him to file an emergency order for temporary custody.  Do it as quicky as you can.

Good luck.

[Ronn]

I kept getting page cannot be found with this link..http://deltabravo.net/custody/kidnap.php,

I am very interested in reading these tips. Can anyone help me get to this link some other way?
Thanks for all the help everyone and I would still appreciate anything that anyone else has to offer on the situation as well. I feel as if I can't get too much info in this situation.
I did read the other links as well and they were very helpful.

[gemini3]

Go to the SPARC article index, and click the drop-down box for "Emergency First Aid".  It's in that list, I think it's the last article.

Jade is correct, he could go and get them back, but that would only make the situation worse, and make things harder on the kids.  The best course of action is a legal one.  You don't want to engage in a "tug-of-war" with the kids.  I would file for a temporary custody order.  

And get an attorney!  Don't try to do this yourself.  There is also a very good article on hiring and attorney in the SPARC article index.

[Davy]

I believe your previous post was full of excellent advice but I have a problem/concern with the following :

**Jade is correct, he could go and get them back, but that would only **make the situation worse, and make things harder on the kids. The **best course of action is a legal one. You don't want to engage in
** a "tug-of-war" with the kids. I would file for a temporary custody
** order.

This is my reasoning.  Children should be considered at risk or endangered whenever any parent takes children and hides them from the other parent or loved one(s).   Of course no one would want o place children in a "tug-of-war" but a retrieving parent should be considered protecting the children from a criminal kidnapping.

In other words, if a parent takes children and NOTIFIES the other parent within a very reasonable time frame then it is civil.  If the children are hiden and the other parent has no access then it is criminal.  

How can it be said that retrieval would make the situation WORST when no one knows the situation ?

Often when children are located they are or have been in deplorable situations and scarred for life.

Society does not protect children but having said all of this I would NEVER suggest a parent retrieve a child in other than a civilized manner
(PI, law enforcement, etc)  I've seldom heard of an attorney retrieving a child to someone labeled with temporary custody.

I always considered myself 'a parent' and only my children defined me.

I scoffed at CP, NCP, visitation (geesh) ... I certainly did not need a goverment worker to tell me to support my children.

[gemini3]

IMHO neither parent should have the right, barring a court order to the contrary, to deprive the other parent of their children.  I agree that the children should be considered at risk or endangered, however, I feel that the best course of action is a legal one.  If there is no court order for custody there is no criminal kidnapping.  

I say that it would make the situation worse because it may further traumatize the children, and without a court order the mother could just come get the kids again.  Then you're back to square one and in a "tug-of-war".  Law enforcement will not get involved when there is no court order for custody.  

By following legal protocol they will probably be able to get at least temporary custody of the children, and prohibit the mother from coming back and kidnapping them a second time.  Having a court order for custody will allow them to get the assistance of law enforcement agencies in retrieving the child, should that be necessary.  

Again, IMHO, it's best to follow legal process and not let emotions get the best of you.  We all have our feelings about how things **should** work, and all too often they get us in trouble because things don't work that way.  I'm sure the mother has her feelings about how things **should** work as well.  She acted on them, and as a result she will probably not get custody of her children.  Her actions will not speak well of her when the custody matter goes before a judge.  If I was the poster, I wouldn't want to put myself in the same position because I got hot-headed and didn't go through the proper channels, and went down and "took" the kids back.  I would take the matter before a judge.

[Ronn]

Thanks for all the help everyone. We are going to hire a lawyer and take it to court. None of us here want to go and just take the kids back. We don't want them to be put through anymore than they already have. I am sure they were very upset and only hope they have became a little more settled with their situation now.
I do have a few more questions that I would like to see if any of you can shed some light on for us.
I know it is unpredictable but was wondering some opinions. What do you think the chances are that if we get an emergency court hearing here in the home state and she comes back for this that the judge would allow her to then return back to where she is and not give us any custody of the children?
Also could a judge allow her to return to the other state and give us some sort of visition with the kids and how would that work being so far away?
Another question I have would be what if we have an emergency court hearing and she doesn't return here for the court hearing?
One more thing I would like some advice on...One of the children got his arm broken last august at a neighbors house and we were told by the mother that it happened on the trampoline.
The neighbor has since came forward along with another person there and said that it didn't happen that way and thats why her home insurance didn't have to pay any bills. They say the mother twisted the childs arm up behind his back and shoved him out the door to go play outside. they said they couldn't say for sure that is what broke it but he was crying and saying thats hurts mama when she did it and that an hour later his dad came out there and said he had broken it and was gone to the doctor.
I took him to the hospital that night and to several more orthapedic surgeon appointments because the father was working and the child didn't want the mother to take him.
My question is should we have these people at the court hearing to speak on what they saw?
My thoughts are if the mother would do this in front of people here that know her i am worried about what could be happening when she is in a state far away from anyone of us that know her.
Thanks again for the advice you guys  and ladies are great.

[Jade]

>Thanks for all the help everyone. We are going to hire a
>lawyer and take it to court. None of us here want to go and
>just take the kids back. We don't want them to be put through
>anymore than they already have. I am sure they were very upset
>and only hope they have became a little more settled with
>their situation now.
>I do have a few more questions that I would like to see if any
>of you can shed some light on for us.
>I know it is unpredictable but was wondering some opinions.
>What do you think the chances are that if we get an emergency
>court hearing here in the home state and she comes back for
>this that the judge would allow her to then return back to
>where she is and not give us any custody of the children?
>Also could a judge allow her to return to the other state and
>give us some sort of visition with the kids and how would that
>work being so far away?
>Another question I have would be what if we have an emergency
>court hearing and she doesn't return here for the court
>hearing?
>One more thing I would like some advice on...One of the
>children got his arm broken last august at a neighbors house
>and we were told by the mother that it happened on the
>trampoline.
>The neighbor has since came forward along with another person
>there and said that it didn't happen that way and thats why
>her home insurance didn't have to pay any bills. They say the
>mother twisted the childs arm up behind his back and shoved
>him out the door to go play outside. they said they couldn't
>say for sure that is what broke it but he was crying and
>saying thats hurts mama when she did it and that an hour later
>his dad came out there and said he had broken it and was gone
>to the doctor.
>I took him to the hospital that night and to several more
>orthapedic surgeon appointments because the father was working
>and the child didn't want the mother to take him.
>My question is should we have these people at the court
>hearing to speak on what they saw?
>My thoughts are if the mother would do this in front of people
>here that know her i am worried about what could be happening
>when she is in a state far away from anyone of us that know
>her.
>Thanks again for the advice you guys  and ladies are great.

You should most definitely have the neighbors testify to what they witnessed.  And if their homeowner's policy didn't cover it, have them give you a copy of the reason for denial.  Even if she didn't break his arm, what she did was very wrong.  

[gemini3]

The outcome of your custody hearing(s) will depend on a number of different factors and circumstances.  There's really no way to predict the outcome - even if we had all of the facts surrounding your case.  Even the best attorney won't be able to predict an outcome (although they should be able to tell you the merits of your case, and how they would present the case).  There's no way to know what would happen.  I know it's hard to go through so much trouble and exoense for a "maybe", but you have to do what's best for the kids and yourselves, and have faith.  

I don't know what would happen if she doesn't show up for the hearing, it depends on the state and the judge.  Ask your attorney this question.

I would definitely have your attorney bring the neighbors as a witness.

Good luck, and I hope the kids are safe.

[Ronn]

I haven't been on here in a while but just wanted to update everyone on what has taken place.
My family has obtained a lawyer and he was going to file papers yesterday for an emergency hearing for us. We will have neighbors and affidavits from several teachers as to who the oldest child has lived with all his life and what they have saw taken place with the mother.
We want to do this the best way possible and just hope the family court system will do whats best for the children. I know the mother can really put on a show and try to make people feel sorry for her. I only hope the judge in the case will put that aside and look at what the facts are.
I do have one thing that concerns me and maybe yall can shed some light on this. I haven't got to speak with the lawyer about this because it happened late yesterday and he is in court today.
The mother had my nephew served with a restraining order yesterday. It really wasn't needed because she is aover 800 miles away and my nephew doesn't have license or a car to get to where she is even if he wanted to which he doesn't.
The papers also said she had temporary custody of the children until a certain date and a custody hearing would be held in the state where they are now.
My question is...with the children being taken there barely 30 days ago will that county in another state have jurisdiction or would the county in the state where the children were born and lived their entire life be the one that will have jurisdiction?
I know she thinks if she went to that state and did everything there then there would be nothing we could do.
I just don't see how that state can have any jurisdiction just because she has taken my nephews children out there and try to get them to give her custody.
Can any of you tell me for sure which state would have the greater jurisdiction over this case?
Thanks again for all the help everyone and I ask that all of you pray for the children and that they will be back with the family that has provided and taken care of them all thier lives.

[gemini3]

Typically it's the state in which the child has lived for six months prior to the move.  There is an act called the Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction and Enforcement Act (UCCJEA) that defines this, and other such issues.

I think you will have to answer in that state and argue that they don't have jurisdiction.  I don't know how you go about doing that though - the attorney you hired should be able to answer that question.  But the bottom line is a state in which the children have resided for only 30 days will not have jurisdiction.

Good luck

[Ronn]

Thank You...it really makes me and my family feel a little better about whats going on with having people on here that know or that have gone through the same telling us things.
Its a very rough time wondering what might be going on with the children but we just try to keep faith and think about how things might be better in the near future.

[Davy]

... and it is very likely it will be a very long time ... not weeks or months but years ... before ya'll see the kids again ... if ever.

Some things you should know NOW :

--  Any attorneys (plural) you retain better be very familiar with interstate custody laws ...  the UCCJA and the PKPA.  The last I looked not all states had passed the revised UCCJEA (which may have provided an exception for those CLAIMING domestic violence).

-- the mother was not entitled to even file suit in the foreign state (non-resident).  But that does not matter.

-- CLEARLY the foreign state DID NOT LEGALLY HAVE JURISDICTION to hear any custody matters concerning these children whose home WAS many miles away.  So the foreign court TOOK (or stole) jurisdiction.

-- So now that the foreign state HAS jurisdiction they WILL turn their chosen Temporary custodial parent into a PERMANENT custodial parent within a short 30 day period.  

-- Your case is not now (or has it ever been) a Custody case per se.  It is a Jurisdictional case FIRST.  Whoever wins jurisdiction wins custody or at least stands a better chance of winning custody.

--  Right now she is winning or has won.  It doesn't matter what the kids teachers at home say, how many witnesses you have at home, and it sure doesn't matter how the neighbor's homeowner insurance company processed a claim (cheesh !!).  A station wagon full of nuns could be driving the father around and it just does not matter. The mother is in the foreign state and her attorney (or her if it is a DCFS court) telling all lies and making up shit for all the reasons she should have custody.
Damn it anyways this father is not paying child support and his picture should be plaster all over a pizza box. (sorry..could'nt resist)

-- To you this is a jurisdictional case and to the abductor it is a custody case.  You would be ill-advised to argue custody issues in a foreign state that stole jurisdiction.  If you (or your attorney) participates in any sort of a custody hearing that act alone could give the foreign judge to confirm ILLEGAL jurisdiction LEGALLY.  (Yes...I did say that right).

What you should do right NOW (knowledgeable attorney required):

-- obtain an emergency order ex-parte (without notice) in the home state granting temporary custody to the father.  It is a given.  Cite the abductor (not mother)  for being mentality unstable and that she has abducted the children (cause she has) to find a favorable forum in a foreign state to grant custody of the children.  Clearly indicate the children are unprotected from the abusive abductor and in danger.  Once the custody order is obtained start hammering your local DA to bring forth the crimnal Custodial Interference charges (documented on this site).

-- Do your damnest to find an attorney to enter the Federal court under the virtures of the PKPA (Parental Kidnapping Prevention Act) ...you will win hands down.  A federal court is much more likely to follow the letter of the statues.  The state courts will DRAIN you of your very last dime and then some and will take forever and a day.  Expect the Federal court to order (1) your state as the home state of the children (jurisdiction) and (2) the children returned to the their home state and (3) to immediately halt all proceedings dealing with the children in the foreign state.

-- Do not hesitate to locate a knowledgeable attorney (call the state Bar) in the foreign state to immediately challenge that state's jurisdiction (again you will win hands down).

This may sound expensive but you may be surprised to find some inexpensive rule-of-law type attorneys that will take the case (win for them).  I believe it is important to read and understand the UCCJA and PKPA (brief) BEFORE trying to communicate with attorneys.  They have a habit of blowing smoke up your .... due to their own ignorance.  

A noted author wrote a book entitled "Our Endangered Children" (1980)
and in it he cited the state of ILLinois and the state of Washington as HAVENS for child abductors.  It may help your cause on this board if you would identify the states involved.

I am not an attorney (or do I wanta be).  I have been thru this and was very lucky to fine good attorneys.  I posted in honor of my children and all children that have been placed in like deplorable situations by a heartless and broken judical sytem colaborating with a mean dehumanizing parent.  They BOTH HAVE or HAD MANY OTHER CHOICES.        

foot note : 2 sons recovered.  Daughter called last Sunday...... several months ago she told her brother that everything that's happened to her was a result of her mother's purposeful and deliberate actions toward her.  

Hope this helps and btw ...check out every REASONABLE posting by myself and others because everything is critical to the kids and right now ... I dont't want to be harsh ... you and yours are no longer a part of the family to those children.

Best of everything and if you have a prayer life it is not at all self righteous  to pray for yourself along with the children.  

[FLMom]

I think speed will be the key to how this goes. If the lawyer(s) drag their feet on any part of this, time will play against you. The faster you can get this in front of a judge, the better.

I just have to say---Davy---I thank you for posting here your advice and opinions, especially on a matter that I'm sure is very painful for you. If I had thought of the other parent as an "abductor" and not "father" I wouldn't have gone through the hell I did for a year. You are so correct about how the right verbage can make a difference. To call the mother in this case anything less than "abductor" is to soft-pedal the situation, a deadly mistake that could take years to fix. Thank you for making me think.

[Davy]

Yes ...time is of essence.  These folks must be able to find and retain a
qualified attorney in the foreign state to contest jurisdiction.  Once the abductor obtains permanent custody the case becomes more expensive and last longer in the foreign state.  Secondly, they also must retain counsel in the home state in order to not only maintain home state jurisdiction but also obtain a temporary custody order.  

Also, it appears the father may be vulnerable at the present time (no license or vehicle).  Most people normally have trouble retaining one local attorney but because of the abduction there is a much greater financial drain.  

** There may a quick and inexpensive alternative to remedy this
**  jurisdiction debacle.  The UCCJA provides for judges to                **  communicate by phone in order to prevent judicial competition.

One of the reasons I posted to begin with is because other posters seem to say that the children would be tramitized if they would be returned to the home state and advising to prepare for a local case.  The children were tramitized when they woke up in a strange place surrounded by strangers.

Why did the mother turned abductor not file in the home state ?

Who is financing the legal expenses in the foreign state ?  

Like I said before ...parental abduction is one of the most cruelest, mean-spirited and evil acts a parent can place on the children and the children's love ones.

This family will be in my thoughts and with all hope for the children's  safe and expedient return.  

 

[Ronn]

Our lawyer has filed for a hearing in our state that will be held in 2 weeks. The mother has been served with papers making her aware of the hearing. We understand there is no guarantee that she will show up but the hearing will be held with or without her. Our lawyer also has told us that he has been in contact with the courts in the other state and informed them of the action taking place in the home state and that the home state is assuming jurisdiction. The mothers court action is scheduled for a couple of days before the one in the home state but we were told by our lawyer it would be cancelled now that the home state has informed them of the action here. Anyone have any advice on that situation or something we should be aware of?
The mother is getting help for a lawyer and anything else she can get from the state she is now in. The kids are her meal ticket for all the free help she wants.
It is my belief that the system that is suppose to protect children is very flawed. There needs to be a uniform set of rules and actions that all states must follow. It is also my belief that any man has the odds stacked against him from the start.
The mother didn't file in the home state because she wanted to take the kids away and try and make sure that nobody on this side of their family ever has any contact with them.
She has no ties to the state she is in other than her mother living there. In fact she herself grew up in the state we live in and had never before even been to that state.
She has had limited physical contact with her mother in the last 7/9 years because her mother was either in prison or on the run from the police most of that time.
She simply is doing things to try and spite my nephew and anyone else on this side of the family and clearly has no concern for what it is doing to the children.
If she shows up at the court hearing a drug test will answer alot of questions. I know for a fact that they will find at least 5 different kinds of drugs in her including crack cocaine.
Hopefull no state or judge would allow a woman like that to be in charge of three children.
Thanks again everyone for you advice and honesty.

[Davy]

** Our lawyer also has told us that he has been in contact with the
** courts in the other state and informed them of the action taking place ** in the home state and that the home state is assuming jurisdiction.  

I like to fall out of my chair weeping when I read that.  I hope it works.
I knew of that provision (Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction Act; UCCJA) Actually, I thought a home state judge formally had to hold a hearing so he could notify the foreign state judge to declare home state jurisdiction.

What advise did your attorney have if the mother refuses to return the children to the proper custodian in the home state ??

Is there a concern or any action for the children's welfare with crack mom alongside gramma's background ?  One would think the children would be considered at high risk.  

I applaud you for all you (and family) are doing to help protect these children.  

[Ronn]

I do not know about having a formal hearing to notify the foreign state of the home state taking jurisdiction. All I know is that's what our lawyer has told us and all we can do now is have trust in him until the hearing takes place.
We were told that if the mother didn't show up for the court hearing that the case would be heard without her and the children could be awarded to my newphew. We were also told that if that happened the court would have a marshal go and get the children from where they are and return them to my nephew.
I have a friend in the court system here and they spoke with people in the family court here and asked who did they consider the very best lawyer that they see come through there and is aggressive and wins the majority of their cases.
This is the lawyer they recommended and he seems very knowledgable. We are just hoping that he is good and the court system can like you see that the children are in danger as long as the mom has them and especially when she is somewhere that nobody has any contact with the children.
We are all just praying for the children for what they are being put through right now. I know they are devestated not being able to see or even speak with their father or any of their family here.
This is not the first time she has left and taken the children but before she stayed in the same town and came back to my nephew once she got all of the "running around and having a good time" out of her system. The oldest child has been tormented from the last time she did this. He would every once in a while tell us that if his mama ever took him again for us to "come look for him" until we found him.
Thats hard to think about what's going on in his mind right now. I am sure he is wondering if we are looking for him or if we are gonna come get him.
We just try to look a litle farther down the road and maybe things will be different. Its my belief and my family has talked about having the children see a therapist once they are returned. I am sure there are alot of things in their minds that are confusing to them.
Its hard for any of us to comprehend how a mother could put her own children through this just to satisfy her own selfish wants.
I truely believe that "what goes around ...comes around" and I am just hoping her day is coming soon.
Thanks to all you guys for letting me vent some here and answering questions for me and my family. Yall just don't know how much it helps sometimes.