Hlp--15 yr old wants to live with dad now!

[woodlark]

I am the step mom
brief history:
- hubby and BM divorced for four years...bm is "emotional" ahem
- they (BM adn sd) moved to Florida 4 years ago
- BM has primary custody
- dad has visitation here in Canada (always, ALWAYS A BATTLE)
- kid has been asking us for last year if she can live here - we have encouraged her to go back after each of three visits (hey you know how 15 year old girls can be with their moms)
- kid is now REFUSING to go back and has indicated her choice of living arrangements to her mom
- sd also has a sister (mine and dads) and wishes to be part of her life (SD is BMs only child)
- we have suspected and child has confirmed PAS on mothers part which is main reason she wants to now reside with dad (kid cannot take mothers freak outs with any conversation about dad, any letter or gift from dad or any time we request vistation per agreement in place
- dad is WONDERFUL (i'm biased) and had never degraded BM and encouraged sd to work out her issues with her mom

Dad and sd called BM last night to discuss a relocation...sd was brave and told her mom she wants to reside with dad and this does not...and I quote "dini=minish her love for mom""
SD told mom she wants some time with dad and sister, and she implored her to let her be happy and let her be a kid (SD is BM's pillar)

BM's replynote: she was screaming the entire time (we taped her)
and I quote:
You father does not love you....he replaced you with ******** (our baby)
I have more rights to you because I carried you for nine months and
What about my happiness...you and your father never care about my
happiness (like thats my husbands job)
and my favourite
"SD he's threatening me and your my witness""
No threats were made and sd had to tell her to stop screaming and lying.

Oh I digress...back to the main issue:

What the hell do we do...this BM has nearly bankrupted us (and more importantly herself) in laywers fees a few years ago (why we gave in and let her move...it was destroying us finacially and emotionally....she's certifyable)

Can the child make up her mind...do we have to get a court order to modify custody...we know that at 15 the child can decide where to live but weve been advised by our lawyer that this can cost up to $50000

Can she charge him with kidnapping if she refuses to return?
the kis is scared shi-less to her at this point and has advises she will not get on the plane.

More background...we are not talking about a bratty delinqueht here, sd is bright articulate an honour roll student and an overachiever in anything she does...an averall great kid


Unfortunately her mother has chosen to reside with her mother in an isolated retirement community....no kids no social life fo sd outside of school ...and oh yeah her mother works atr the frickin school! The kid cannot get away from her!

Ok I know I am rambling I just hope someone ou there can advise us or help us.

HELP!!!

[lookinnomore]

I do believe if you don't send SD back, in essance it is kidnapping, you could try going into cout in Canada and getting custody.  I don't know if they will hear it if another court has jurisdiction but it would be worth a try.  There is a fine line on when a child will be heard, but 15 is pretty old and I believe they will hear SD.  

Call an attorney in your area most of them I bet have a free consultation, and talk to you over the phone about whether you can go into court there and get custody.  

Not a good thing to say, but, possion is 9/10 of the law isn't it?  GOOD LUCK!

[Peanutsdad]

Unfortunately, whatever court orders exist right now......are the ones you will be held to.



It's not kidnapping, its custodial interference,, and yes, he could be arrested and jailed. ( depending on WHERE the court order is from,, if its an american order,, it might take a while to percolate thru Canada)


fight.
On the other hand,, if you cant get the child on a plane,, as in she refuses to be dragged onboard,,, you had better have an attorney ready and file in court.


One question....does Canada have jurisdiction?,, meaning,, is that where the last order was signed?

If so,, then she'll have to come up there to

[joni]

you must follow the court order....especially with this being between two countries, the ramifications would be much more serious that between two states.  you could lose visitation until she's 18.

here's a thought.   can your SD go to court to become an emancipated minor?  once she's free of all parents, she can choose to live where she wants as an adult.

another thought, was she born in Canada?  is SD still a Canadian citizen?  is she still is...by birth right....like in the US.....maybe she can file for this emanicipation in Canada.

since she's a minor...could she get a court appointed attorney in Canada to do this for her?  can she get a court appointed guardian to be her advocate and keep it from looking like this is her father's campaign and not the child's own.

I think your only other option would be to file in Florida for custody....or increased parenting visitation, where the child lives with you during the school year and mom during the summer.

It would probably be a good couple of hundred of bucks spent if you met with an attorney to see what your options are....if any....in Canada.

good luck.

[nosonew]

Can she claim she is being emotionally abused (true) and ask for an emergency hearing for change of custody?  If she was willing to talk to her mom about her wishes, she certainly would talk to a judge, attorney, mediator, or whomever.

Good luck, keep us updated!

[Erika]

But I have a friend in an scenerio almost like this, but we haven't spoken in a while. Not since her SD moved to Florida..
Do you live in Ontario???

[true]

Hi there,

Well I have been browsing the message boards looking for a question such as yours. The only thing is that I am on the opposite end of the rope than you I am the custodial parent of a 14 yr old and a 10 year old and have been since my youngest was five months old. I am entirely distressed at the desire to stay with the EX. Personally, I hope that my situation is much different than that of your own. My daughter's arrive for parenting time and receive "the gifts". (ex: 36 inch flat screen TV this past June). I wont and dont compete by doing such things. We have long distance separation "it is better for us as parents not to be neighbors nor reside in the same state for that matter".
The night before I was to have surgery this summer I was served to attend a referee hearing. BTW no calls from the girls prior to being served did they mention in our calls "their desire" so I was blind sided. Although, I cant say exactly blindsided I have known that since his newest and current relationship began that things were "changing". Personally, I would not as a Step parent, sign letters with the signature Mom but that happens now. (As a side note of course her and I do share the same first name, go figure but I can live with that the Mom part at times I struggle with.)
To get back on track, after the surgery my physician sent a letter to postpone the hearing. The court felt that having major surgery was not a suitable reason to postpone as I was not the one to have to clearing convince the referee that a change in custody was necessary. Well, personally my physician was shocked and I was appalled. I did do some "double time" they did offer me the ability to "phone in rather than travel over 1500 miles to attend what turned out to be a 45 minute referee hearing. I sent in fifty dollars worth of faxes hoping to cover any potential aspect that my EX could bring up. (school reports, letters from teachers, social letters, parents that have seen us interact, my written response, medical info,  letters with the "Mom signature", letters from my daughters that I recieve, outline of our family activities etc). About 20 minutes into the hearing, I am struggling on the phone, no visual clues, but the referee stops and says "I am not going to change custody its my understanding that Dad wants some changes in the parenting agreement." Perhaps I agreed to a few things that I shouldnt have but my life was flashing before me. My situation is that I see parent alienation going on. I also now have a ten year old child who speaks to me on the phone daily and makes threats. She sounds coached, this is not the daughter that I have brought up. Its turning into a nightmare for me and I know that I will have a struggle once they return. I have already made appointments for counseling for the three of us but I am afraid it might even be too late even then.

Side note: the Ex and GF are building a new house perhaps that has something to do with there desire I am not sure.

Personally, after looking at the "parenting time" website for you it would be a good idea to track the "trouble spots", even if this doesnt go to court it might show a "pattern" so that you can gage how to deal with the exwife. Documentation is key and also knowing that "courts are strange" helps too.

Thanks for listening, sorry for being so longwinded.

[woodlark]

Yes I do.

[woodlark]

Gosh that would be devastating. She is still a Canadian citizen to answer someone else's question - BM has not yet, after 4 years gotten around to getting her American Immigrant Papers looked after (poor kid has had numerous hassels at border. Court order exists in Ontario. Hubby tring to file a court order for modification...had a couple of free phone consults...all say no problme but we must act fast.

Did some research about Hague treaty, holy donuts...what a mess that whole scene is too.
The upshot seems to be that we can be charged with international child adbuction however once the child lets her wishes known (in Canada consideration is given to children who are of age and show sufficient maturity) that will be the end of that.

I dont know, I mean we have to respect SD's wishes and help her to make the best decision for herself, but I have lived wth BM's endless crap for years now and I am sadly at the end of my rope. We have a three-year-old who needs us fully, plus carreers and my two as well....it all seems to much.

We are sending SD to counselling this week, to be sure she is not being affected by us in her decision.....hubby is going too.

Too much man. I feel sick and terrified...and trying to hang in and be supportive but frankly Im just broke and scared.

Thanks to all of you for the reality check and I'll keep you posted.

BTW today is SD's B-day...big 15, bm called to wish her a happy day and to let her know shes in not going to stress her out "today"

[woodlark]

In Canada as soon as we file for a modification in custody what would happen is we could request that she be appointed a Childs Attorney through our Federal Government who would act in her best interests.

Even though she wants to live here, I feel she has settled well in Fla. with her mom. I am to be honest, worried about her decision and the impact it may have on her schooling (she is a straight A honours student).

Yes she misses her dad and yes she gets hassels with each and every scheduled visitation or non-schduled request. Yes she has missed out on alot...but I feel she will be in the same situation here...I mean, to use her vernacular ïts not natural for a kid to be so far away from a parent"

Her BM is nutty, I will give you that but she has come a long way in they last year since SD started this "I wnat to live with my dad" discussion. She has allowed extra visits and has allowed her to spend most of the summer here. I feel like she's trying...knowing she has nothing in her life besides SD and knowing how controlling she is and how much she HATES hubby...gosh I sound like Im advocating for her...I just kinda feel bad for her and bad for us and bad for SD.

The flip side is she has been caught in many, many lies in the past and has told SD on more than one occasion that hubby does not love her because he has a new daughter. SD knows better and has not heard her dad make any disparaging comments about mom...dad always takes the high road but does explain the truth to SD and encourages her to do the same.

To me she just a desperate unfortunate unwell person trying to hold onto somone whom she can no longer control...she (SD) knows her stories are just that...stories.

But she is devastated by SD's decision and her family has no end of money so I fear she will drag us to hell and back before she allows SD to stay.

We will visit our lawyer tomroorow to have paers filed to change the custody arrangement. We are hoping for Joint custody with more than ample sharing of SD's vacation time.....we know that she will lose, we know that she will be ordered to pay child support (not much she does not make much money) and we know it will cost us dearly...emotionally and financially. But again were trying to respect SD's decision.




 

[woodlark]

Read mu other posts...I struggle too. SD'is not treated differently than mine or ours and I have always been under the assumption that she is very spoiled by her BM (material things).

I do know that she is bored...lives in a situation where she has no friends nearby and thus had a very socially isolated life.

I feel badly that you were blindsided...my heart goes out to you.
MY sd has been discussing this with her mom for over a year now and her mother has threatened to "send her to live with her dad"on numerous occasions....SD is confised by this..."why is mom assuming that would make me unhappy"

From her perspective and also form my own daughter's who earlier this summer advised she wanted to live with her dad and SM next year

they have always been with you...(BM) they know thay only have a few years before they leave the nest, they want to spend time being a apert of dad's life too

my daughters decision was met with respect, her father is wonderful and despite being divorced from him we still share a close relationship that includes my hubby and his wife...its best for the girls

SD's BM cannot or will not see that her daughter is a separate being with her own mind....she accuses us of brainwashing her amonfg other horrid things.

My advice...get the girls some couselling...work WITH your ex to develop a plan where the girls will not feel like they are having to chose and respect whatver decisions they do ultimately make


I truly wish you all the best.

[Erika]

If you aren't comfortable posting, email me at [email protected]

To help you, my skids BM and her DH lived in the west end, like you (if it's you). We got together a few times, we stayed at your house one night. Gosh I hope it's you because I sent an e-mail after I moved and it bounced back!

I wanted to catch up see how you were doing and how M was.

[mango]

If BM has tried somewhat to let her come out, can you (we did this once) put in together a temporary one year order.That will overide the exiting order. A one year relocation, with an end/expiration date.  So at teh end she has to go back with mom.

Without attorneys.

This way the SD can try out Canada life with dad, and choose at the end.

You could suspend the CS order, and even to make it nice for BM, not have her pay DH for that year. Just to show good faith.

We did this once, it was fine. BM had a job out of state for two years, we took the first year and BM took the second year. Plan expired after two years, and the old parenting plan was back in place.

DH & BM wrote and entered it into court without attorneys.

[woodlark]

I think this is what we may try....SD had indicated to her mom that she did want to live here for a year knowing that she will soon leave ethe nest and she wanted to spend time with hubby and sister.

BM told her there will be no bouncing back and forth and that hse had to make a decision and stick to it. Sadly when SD did make that decision she was very verbakky abusive to her. Sad.

We see the lawyer tomorrow (had emergency court the other day) and we are preparing SD for the reality of her having to return to Florida. Im just sick and I feel like we are lettting her down.

[Lawmoe]

A child custody order can only be modified by a subsequent child cutody order. The standard for modifying child custody vaies from State to State. However, in the vast majority of states that standard is what is in the best interests of the child.  There is also generally a presumption that the current custody arrangement should be maintained and it is up to the parent seeking to change custody to prove their case by a preponderance of the evidence.

Any "best interests of the child" analysis requires that the Court look at the totality of all circumstances including factors set out in your State Statutes.  One of those factors is the desires of the child.   That is ONLY one factor and is not dispositive although, from a practical perspective, the older the child becomes, the more persuasive the child's opinions.

[woodlark]

Thanks for your assistance.

We are filing for an emergency hearing this Friday. Our attorney is trying to have a court appointmed laywer assigned to SD's case (a child laywer is court appointed in ON)

SD is due to return home on Saturday

So wish us, and more importantly, SD luck....thanks to all for your support, I will keep you posted.

[woodlark]

Update - Can't get any worse than this.....

BM has received letter from our attorney, we are proceedin with modifying custodial court order.

BM has lost her marbles now. She has started a campaign of denigration and is having SD's friends in her home state contact her via email and ask her to come home....which in itself is understandable and completely logical given that she is extrmeley upset by SD's decision

HOWEVER she has informed SD's friends that she is using illegal drugs and has had "police involvement for same

SD is so very upset, so very, very upset and inconsolable now. This has furthered her resolve that she does wish to reside here

THEN, oh it gets better, grandmother (with whom child and BM reside) call and tells SD that she will end up "putting BM and her in hospital"

When SD asserts her decision she tells her to "have a good life" and hangs up on her.

Other tactics used by BM and GM (quoted):
- we cannot afford to fly you home so you will never see us again (hubby has committed to paying for flights home so SD can have ample visitation with BM)
- denial of negative remarks made to date
- telling SD she is crazy and is a bitch for"putting them through this"
- GM telling sd that her heart is as broken as when her granfather died
- telling SD she will not succeed academically here and the list goes on....

We have kept attorney apprised of all of this
Hubby is sinking into depression, SD is flatly refusing to return to Fl. and all other children are affected.

Is there ever an end to the pain these people are willing to inflict on thier children whom they claim to love?

I just read aussie's story and I am terrifed given that similar threats have been made ....

[nosonew]

Regarding the comment from another poster that it sounds like PAS, I personally do not feel that way.  Kids who don't have social lives and are in a "controlling" relationship with a bio parent who has custody of them, tend to "let loose" as they age.  My own bio son has done that, stating, "I am going to my dads, I want to live with my dad". The difference is, his dad doesn't want him to live there.  Not because he doesn't miss him, or love him as much as I, but because the school district and "influences" are not good where he lives.  He may live in a 250,000 home, (he does), but he is afraid that our straight A student, living in a 5 stop-light town, will choose negative influences that will affect the rest of his life if he moved to a town of 500,000 people.  

My son's dad is realistic and reasonable.  

Your sd is wanting a "true family", the one she reads about in books, the "Dad, Mom, siblings family".  I don't blame her.  No one should.  Is this stressful for the adults? Yes.  Should they do as your dh is doing? YES.  

I suggest you do nothing to confront her mother, say nothing negative, as hard as it may be, and support your dh in his decision 100%.  Yes, your life will be hell for a little while.  But your sd's emotional health will be better for it.  She needs to know her dad, and you, love her, respect her, and support her "adult" decision.  

I have nothing but the utmost respect for any parent who is NOT pas"ing their children, yet the child decides to live with them and they FIGHT for the child's right to decide at this age.  

YOU ARE doing the right thing!

[woodlark]

Today is return day

Mom is at airport and will have dad charged with international child abduction this pm per her conversation with dad last pm...she hads threatened FBI intervention

Dad has been advised to return daughter by attorney noting order gives custodial rights to BM

Dad got daughter up this am, we packed her up last night...she refused.

Dad escorted her to truck
Daughter efused to go...dad called police who spoke to daughter about impacts potetially on dad re: criminal charges

Dad has booked next available flight and has left mother message (as have police) re: same
Daughter is extremely ditraught and states she will not go.

Aussie. This BM DOES hate dad more than she loves shild as evidenced by recent comments made to friends.

Call has been placed to attorney re: what do we do next???????

Thanks to all for your assitance and support...I will keep you posted.......

[woodlark]

Judge listened to plea on Tuesday
We were granted temp custody until hearing on 25Aug2004!!!
We are all breathing a wee sigh of relief!

SD is overjoyed but we cautioned her that this may not mean she is here for good....

I think mom will agree, noting she would have to come up for hearing and hire a laywer in Canada (her lawyer she had for the divorce no longer wants anything to do with her and refuses to represent her)

I think  (i hope) she accepting SD's decision and perhaps will consent without the upset of another court date (where she is likely based on what our lawyer is telling us to ger her wrist slapped publicly for the events of last few years per SD's affidavit)

Now comes rebuilding their (BM and SD) relationship after unfortunate recent events. Its the best thing and the right thing to do...SD needs BOTH her parents in her life and for them to get along....whatever way possible. Hubby and I are committed to this.

SD is now attending counselling and we are urging her to remain in close contact with mom during this difficult time and to not let go of the fact that mom, despite all her angry words, soes indeed love her and is understandably upset at SD's decision....

THANKS  so much to all who have been supportivive and provided info. your advice has helped greatly....

This is truly the most amazing supotive forum we have ever encountered.

to all...I'll keep you posted on the next steps....again thank you

Woodlark