Flying unaccompanied

[jgaff78]

My fiance and I live about 1000 miles away from his ex-wife and 7 year old daughter (the ex moved prior to their divorce). Our state has jurisdiction over the divorce and custody issues since they lived here prior to her moving and he filed for divorce in our state. We have been somewhat able to resolve visitation issues reasonably in the past but recently we had to take the ex to court over the visitation schedule. The schedule was modified so that his daughter comes to see us for the entire summer break every summer, during every spring break, we get alternating Christmases, and we get her for Thanksgiving (though we pay for that and are responsible for the transportation). That issue was resolved less than a year ago but the new schedule has worked very well for his daughter since she gets to see him on a more regular schedule.

Due to the distance between us, his daughter has always flown back and forth between the two parents unless his parents were able to transport her if they were driving to our state during a scheduled visitation time (Christmas). His ex tended to rely on his parents quite often for transportation because it meant she did not have to pay anything toward the visit. Now that his parents have moved back to our state permanently, his ex has been forced to fly with their daughter for one half of the visitation every time. Generally he or I will fly down to pick her up at the start of visitation and the ex flies up to pick her up at the end of visitation. This has worked well until now.

Yesterday the ex sent my fiance a message and said that their daughter would either have to fly alone at Christmas or one of us would have to fly both ways with her because her arthritis is bad enough that she cannot fly without being unable to work for two days afterward. Frankly, we both knew this was simply an excuse to try to get out of taking time to fly with her daughter. She continued to send him messages today trying to get him to agree to let her fly unaccompanied at Christmas. We sent a message saying that we did not want her to fly unaccompanied because we believe she is too young and immature to fly by herself at this age. We would prefer for her not to fly unaccompanied until she is at least 10. Her response was that we are "babying" her and that it is her (the ex's) decision, not my fiance's. She seems determined that their daughter will fly unaccompanied unless we are willing to shell out the extra money to fly with her each visitation. The visitation agreement does not address whether or not the child will be allowed to fly unaccompanied or anything so we are not sure what rights we have in this. Do we have to bite the bullet and pay for the extra tickets to fly or can we file contempt again since she is unwilling to bend on the issue? I already suggested that she have a relative fly with their daughter if she is physically unable to do it. That is when we got the snippy response about it being her decision.

Does anyone know what the legalities are for children flying unaccompanied in long-distance visitation situations? And what age would most of you consider reasonable for a child to begin flying unaccompanied?

[ocean]

Child is old enough to fly by themselves. You have to pay extra for that so if daughter is okay with that then tell her you will meet her at the gate and ex will pay the minor fee for her end of the trip. It really depends on the child and if THEY feel comfortable with it.
Since it was not addressed in court then you have no leg to stand on. If you went back they probably split the unaccompanied child fee or tell you if you want to get her you pay...

[jgaff78]

The problem is that this child is very emotionally immature. She cries easily, especially when being dropped off at daycare and she still tends to get very upset when she is leaving her father after visitation with him. When his parents were transporting her, she would cry uncontrollably and latch on to him when we tried to drop her off for them to take her back. If she is that upset when she is leaving with someone she knows, it's likely that she will be upset if we drop her off with a stranger.  I can't really see sticking her on a plane by herself when she is sad and scared. Her mother is not thinking ahead to the emotional ramifications that can and will have a negative impact on her.

The other issue is that we purposely set it up so that we would pick her up at the beginning of visitation and her mother would pick her up at the end of visitation so that she wasn't sitting on a plane for two hours with the parent she was leaving. It is a heart-breaking flight when you know you're not going to see that person again for a couple of months. It just isn't fair to her to put her through that. At least if her mother is there to meet her at the airport after a scheduled visitation then she can look forward to seeing her again instead of dreading leaving.

We know that she talked with their daughter about this issue once before because she tried to tell us that their daughter had asked to fly alone. The truth of the matter is that she decided to talk with her about it without discussing it with us first. She thought we would agree and give in since the child wanted it. When we discussed it with her at that time, the ex agreed that she was too young and should still fly with a parent (this was only a few months ago). This child can easily be talked into something when it is something that is hypothetical. She talks about wanting to ride roller coasters and appears to be excited right up until she gets to an amusement park. Then she changes her mind and kicks and screams if you even attempt to talk her into it. I just wonder what will happen when she actually gets to the gate and we have to drop her off with a stranger. And since the ex is responsible for the return transportation, WE would be the bad guys having to leave her there upset.

[ocean]

Mom will have to be the one putting her on the plane to travel to you alone... If she thinks she will get on, then give it a try. If mom says "dad will be on the other side" and you call and tell her the same thing, she may just do it. Mom wants the cheaper way out of it, tell her that she is responsible for getting her on the plane...first time will show if daughter is willing do to it.

Or, Tell mom , what happens if you buy on ticket but throw a fit and wont get on the plane home?? what does she want you to do then?? She may do the first trip to you and not want to do it again..then what?

[Kitty C.]

If you get on any airline website, they have a section on unaccompanied minors and what their regulations are....which are mandated by the FAA.  We flew DS UAM for 10 years between CA and IA (1800 miles).  If the regulations haven't changed, a child can fly unaccompanied from ages 6-8 on non-stop flights only.  At the age of 9, a child can fly with one plane change through the age of 13.  After that, flying UAM is a choice, not a requirement, for a minor to fly alone.  Remember, this is all mandated by the FAA, NOT the courts.

This is how the process works:  You can make reservations as usual, but make sure to get to the airport a minimum of 2 hours ahead of time.  When you check in, you will be asked to fill out a UAM form that will request contact information for both the sending parent and the receiving parent.  You will also see signature lines on this form..........this is for all the airline personnel who will have responsibility of the child.  The first signature will be from the flight attendant whom you hand your child over to.  She will also be given a red and white striped pin that she has to wear while flying.  All UAM's are first to board and last to get off and they are escorted by the hand the entire time.  You can get a security pass to take the child all the way to the gate, but since 9/11, you cannot walk the child onto the plane...you turn over the child to a flight attendant at the gate.   

When you pick up the child, make damn sure you have photo ID immediately available, or they will NOT turn the child over to you until you do provide it.  My atty. told me of a father who went to pick up his son and forgot his wallet.  His son was standing there with the flight attendant crying 'Daddy, Daddy!', but they would NOT turn the child over to him until he went back home and got his ID.

In our experience, it was the judge who made the recommendation that DS fly..........I had never even heard of it before and it scared me silly, since he was only 6 y.o. at the time.  But after the first flight, I had no qualms about it whatsoever.   Oh, I still cried every time he left, but only because I would miss him and always held it in until he was on the plane.  He always had stories when he came back about the friends he made on the plane!  We waited until DS was 9 before allowing him to fly with a plane change.  As it was, I had to drive him 250 miles to O'Hare every time for his non-stop flights, which cost me a total of 1000 miles every time he went.  The only thing that has changed over the years is the UAM fees, which keep going up.

Given what you've described, flying your child UAM would be drastically cheaper than the way you've been doing it.  Your ex would have to pay the UAM fee on her end when she puts the child on the plane, as you would on your end.  But it is the safest way for your child to get back and forth between homes.  UAM's are supervised at all times while in the temp. custody of the airline.

Only once was there a problem with a flight DS was on.  We flew him out of Omaha (another 250 miles in the other direction, but cheaper flights) and he was to change planes in Denver.  Something happened with the flight from DEN to SMF before they even took off and it would be delayed.  The airline tried to call me, but we were already driving back home and I ws out of range on my cell.  They called DS's dad, let him know what was going on, fed DS, and kept him in a 'quiet room' in the airline customer service area until they were able to get him on another flight.  They took care of him.  On another holiday, there was bad weather in DEN when DS was to come home.  He could get to DEN, but flights out were cancelled.  When they called to tell me, I asked them if he could at least fly into DEN, as I had family there who could pick him up.  No way, the airline wouldn't let us.  So we had to wait another day (and take a day off work) to get him back, but he came back safe.

DS is now 20....when he flew out to CA in his 13th year, his dad was diagnosed with cancer and died 3 weeks later.  I flew out to be with DS, but mainly to fly home with him, so he wouldn't be alone.  When we got to DEN, DS was escorting ME around, he knew DIA so well!  But tho DS has had many problems as a result of losing his dad so young, one thing that I attribute to all the flights he took alone is the tremendous amount of self-confidence he has in new situations......I truly believe that the positives FAR outweighed the negatives (mainly MY insecurities!) in regards to him flying UAM.  And I would do it again in a heartbeat if I had to.......if it meant he could see his dad again.....

Sorry this is so long...but it's an issue close to my heart.......

[Kitty C.]

I also understand your misgivings regarding how the child will react to it.  It will take a few times, but a LOT of how she will react will depend on how you handle the situation as well.  Trust me, the airline personnel are accustomed to dealing with distraught children.  But as long as you check your approach and attitude about what's going on to the child, she will learn to handle it.  Consider this one aspect of the process of her growing up.....self-reliance.

Given that we always had a LD schedule, it was very difficult for me at first.  And DS picked up on that immediately...I realized right away that he mirrored every anxiety and insecurity I had about it!  But as soon as I changed my perspective on it, his whole attitude changed about it.  I pumped him up about it well ahead of time, to the point that when the day came for him to leave, he was so excited about it, he could have flown there by himself if he'd had wings, LOL!

The only other difficulty we had was when DS started questioning why Daddy didn't come to see him....and I didn't have an answer for him.  Then it changed to 'If Daddy doesn't come see me, then I'm not gonna go see him!'  I thought I'd have to put a screaming, wailing child on that plane, but I stayed with my regular routine of pumping him up and by the time the day of the flight came, he again was extremely excited to leave.  Again, it was all in the attitude and perspective I used with him.

I never insinuated to DS that this was something he HAD to do, that he had no choice regardless of how he felt about it.....rather I made it into an adventure so that he was excited to go.  So all this will depend on how the child perceives it, which is mainly the signals and attitudes that she receives from you about it.  I'm not saying it will be easy, but as she gets more and more flights under her belt, it will become more 'normal' for her.

As for going to court about it, I don't think you'll find a sympathetic judge.  Judges deal with so many LD custody agreements that flying children UAM is the norm now.  If you push the issue otherwise, it may not go well with the judge and you might be forced into doing it anyway.

Your only other alternative would be to spend enormous amounts of money to make sure Dad flies with her on every flight.  Which means THREE round trip flights every time she comes to see you.  Can you afford that?  And what will that teach her about self-reliance?

[Momfortwo]

While I don't agree that a 10 year old can fly unaccompanied (in this time and age, I would have a problem with a teen-ager flying unaccompanied), the courts will view it differently. 

What you can do to minimize the risk is to get a flight that is a direct one without any layovers at all. 

[jgaff78]

I think one of the things that bothers me the most about this is that her mom has been the one to baby her all these years and made her so dependent on others. The kid is treated like she is 2 when she is with her mom, it's ridiculous. And now, after babying her for all these years, mom suddenly wants to decide that she's old enough to get on a plane by herself simply because it's convenient for mom. It has nothing to do with what is in the child's best interests, it's all about what's good for mom. It's so very selfish, but I guess that shouldn't surprise me coming from her.

I guess if it comes down to it, we will be forced to pay the extra to fly back and forth with her at visitations. We are dead set that she is not going to fly unaccompanied for at least two more years, and then it will just depend on her level of maturity. And no, we really can't afford to do that but there is at least one way we can make up for the cost. Next year we will be putting in the paperwork to get child support stopped for the time she is with us during the summer and possibly during other visitation periods. Her mother gets enough support while their daughter is with us in the summer to pay for the flights with her flying round trip to be with her, but she doesn't want to use the money for it. She just uses that money for herself so now she's not going to have it. There is no reason for her to get child support when the child is not with her for 2 months or more.

As far as what flying with her will teach her about self-reliance, I'm not so concerned with that. We attempt to teach her to be self-reliant as much as possible when she is with us. What I know she will learn from us flying with her though is that daddy cares enough to take the time and spend the extra money to make sure she is safe. I won't take the chance of putting her in physical or emotional danger just to save a few bucks. It's not worth it to me. I'm just sad to see that it's worth it to her mom.

[MixedBag]

I totally agree with what Kitty said -- several divorces here, at one point 6 children who flew in three different directions, as unaccompanied minors.

I also want to re-iterate that the kids pick up on your emotions -- so I recommend you do the normal thing.  Go get her, and then arrange an unaccompanied minor flight to return.....and tell mom tough.  Either accompany our child or she comes back on her own.

NOW, during the time she is with you, pump up her confidence.

See....this hits home with my youngest son.  He started flying at age 4 (geez, I think it was), and went unaccompanied from as soon as he was old enough (age 5 back then?).    At one point, the airline even upgraded to a jet and he got off and said "Mom thanks for buying me a bigger airplane!"  Hilarious!

Anyways, I believe in building confidence in my kids -- and when he was older and allowed by airline standards to make a connection even as an unaccompanied minor -- I had him convinced he could do it.  But then he'd get back to dad's house, and it didn't take too long before dad had him SCARED to give it a try.  This pattern has repeated itself many times and crossed over into other subjects.....I'm a "can do" person, IMHO, dad spins stuff to make him scared.

IMHO -- do what you've always done and encourage her the whole week to look forward to being a bigger girl!

[Giggles]

Next year we will be putting in the paperwork to get child support stopped for the time she is with us during the summer and possibly during other visitation periods. Her mother gets enough support while their daughter is with us in the summer to pay for the flights with her flying round trip to be with her, but she doesn't want to use the money for it. She just uses that money for herself so now she's not going to have it. There is no reason for her to get child support when the child is not with her for 2 months or more.

I wouldn't put too much hope in this...most CS formulas factor in "visitation" times.

As for the flying of a UAM.  It's sad that your SD is so emotionally immature, but like the others have stated, that can be changed with encouragement from all parties.  I find it suspect though for her to have these outbursts at her age.  I used to work in a daycare and have seen clinging kids and 9 times out of 10, it's the parents that cause the clinging.  If we had a clinger, the teacher at that time would call up to the front office.  I would go down to that room, have the parent pass the child to the teacher and I would then tell the parent to follow me.  We had an observation area for each room (2 way mirror) and I would take the parent to that room.  They would see for themselves that once they left the room, the child typically stopped crying and was active in play within a few MINUTES!!

My DS has been flying UAM since he was 6 y/o...as a matter of fact all my children have been doing it (OD was 5 the first time she flew UAM and YD was 4...she was turning 5 the next week) since a very young age and NEVER had a problem.

The key is to keep them occupied while they are on the plane.  I usually send with them their video games, extra snacks, coloring books and crayons.  I made it into an adventure and they loved it!!

[ocean]

Giggle is right, you wont get a reduction for summer weeks. That is calculated in the amount already..
A lot of information on this site and how the court system works...(a lot of time the courts do not use "common sense" and what is it your papers now is very hard to change...)
You may be able to get some credit for airfare but you already dealt with this in court....

Also, mom can spend the money how she feels fit..NO state requires accountability of how the money is spent but as a CP, my girls get things but if I go get my hair done doesnt mean I used their child support money...The mother is allowed to go on with her life too, just like your DH. I am sure mom is paying for school lunches, school trips, clothes, housing, utilities and your DH needs to help with those bills since he is their father. The courts will tell you , you need to keep paying the child support because mom's bills do not go away when child is with you...she still has to pay rent/mortagae and bills to keep the house for the child...

[MixedBag]

Giggles gives a perfect example....and that very thing happened to me when my OD was 2 1/2 to 3....(though I didn't think I caused it).  Going to a real day care with tons of kids was new to her and so she pitched a fit, hung on to me for dear life....and around the corner they had a window that wasn't too big and up higher like from mid waist and up and I could see that she was just fine about the 30 seconds it took me to walk around and take a peek.

SO OD pitched her fit, I unclung her every morning, and could see she was just fine.

[Giggles]

Mix...what I meant is that we had many parents that wouldn't "un-cling" therfore making the situation worse.  Once we showed them that the children actually chill out once they are gone...they tend to "un-cling" a bit more.

[Momfortwo]

Next year we will be putting in the paperwork to get child support stopped for the time she is with us during the summer and possibly during other visitation periods. Her mother gets enough support while their daughter is with us in the summer to pay for the flights with her flying round trip to be with her, but she doesn't want to use the money for it. She just uses that money for herself so now she's not going to have it. There is no reason for her to get child support when the child is not with her for 2 months or more.

Not gonna happen.  You may, as long as you aren't the one who created the distance, get a credit for the extra transportation costs due to the distance. 

When child support is calculated, especially in income share states where parenting time is taken into consideration, it is done for the whole year and then spread out over the whole year, in states that takes parenting time into consideration, the time that the child spends with the NCP is already factored in.  In states where parenting time isn't taken into consideration, it won't matter. 

What you could ask for is that the child support be spread out over the time that the child is with the CP, which means that the NCP pays more child support when the child is with the CP and none when with the NCP.  But the yearly amount remains the same. 

[jgaff78]

ocean, the mom does not use the money for things for my stepdaughter. Every time she comes for visitation, her hair is hanging down in her face and she is in desperate need of a haircut. At the same time, mom's nails are professionally airbrushed. We buy her school clothes, get her hair cut, etc. We are also the ones to send down extra money for school events (like the Christmas shop last year). And in our state, expenses such as utilities and rent are considered duplicate expenses and are not factored into child support. Both parents must maintain a home for the child so the custodial parent does not receive extra money for those expenses.

As far as getting the support changed. As long as we go back into court and take documentation showing that we are the ones providing school clothes, hair cuts, etc. on top of being responsible for the majority of transportation costs and still paying the child support in full on time every time, the court will rule in our favor again. Mom made a bad impression on the judge up here last time she was in court with us. She threw a hissy fit when we filed the paperwork to get the visitation schedule altered and swore up and down she was not going to let "her daughter" come up here more and that she was going to nail us for the costs of her trip to come up for the court hearing. When we got into the court room she agreed with what the judge suggested (essentially the exact same thing we had asked her for) and when the judge asked if either party had any other concerns, she said no. Then when the judge said court was adjourned, she stood up, slammed her paperwork around on the desk, started muttering about how she had to waste money and take days off work and everything, spun on her heel and stormed out the door. The entire time she was doing this, the judge and his court reporter just sat there and stared at her, completely in disbelief. She made the mistake of showing her true colors and since we live in such a small community, that impression will be remembered.

Also, the clingy thing my stepdaughter does is a direct result of her mother's influence. Her mom babies her constantly. She doesn't remind her not to talk like a baby and mom even does the baby-talk thing herself quite often. She still lets her sleep in her bed with her quite often. She does not support her or encourage her to act her age. She seems to enjoy having her "little girl" and doesn't want to see her grow up. Even one of mom's sisters said she thinks mom wants her to be a baby forever. So that is why we are having issues with her flying on her own. She has been babied and is not able to self-regulate her behavior. She is overly emotional and gets scared easily. We even got a call from her first grade teacher last year informing us that she would cry in class fairly often and would not explain what the problem was. Her kindergarten teacher wanted to hold her back because she felt she was not emotionally mature enough to handle first grade. She gets upset and flustered when things don't go according to plan. I have worked very hard to get her to calm down and to understand that so many of the things that upset her are not worth crying over and that crying will not make it better. I've tried to get her to realize that things will improve a lot more if she opens her mouth and says what is bothering her instead of simply crying about it until somebody figures out what the problem is. She "freaks out" very easily and panics when she doesn't understand something or it requires her to act on her own. She is simply not mature enough to do this on her own yet and mom made her that way. We have been trying to make mom understand that she can't suddenly decide she is mature enough to handle this simply because it is convenient for her. This is a child that cannot be forced into something. When given the opportunity to sink or swim, she will sink. She needs to approach new situations slowly and learn things in baby-steps, she can't just jump in. We have learned this through trial and error and until mom is willing to work throughout the rest of the year to encourage independence, this child will not become mature enough to handle this situation this soon. And for any of you that may still think that we cause this behavior by our actions, everyone who knows my stepdaughter and has seen her with both parents has told us that she is a completely different child when she is with us. They say she is more outgoing, better behaved, and happier. I wouldn't necessarily have believed that if I hadn't seen her change her behavior around her mother with my own eyes. She immediately begins acting 2-3 years younger the minute her mother is in site because that is how she gets attention from her. It makes mom happy to see her "baby" and so she plays right into it.

[Giggles]

As long as we go back into court and take documentation showing that we are the ones providing school clothes, hair cuts, etc. on top of being responsible for the majority of transportation costs and still paying the child support in full on time every time, the court will rule in our favor again.

Sure you could take that to court but it really wont do much good.  The court will view your additional spending as "gifts".  You may have some relief on transportation.

You need to be very careful how you present your case as well. If you go off and attack the BM, the court could very well view you as being hostile and only interested in "punishing" the BM...instead of what is in the best interest of the child.

The BM does not have to account for what she spends the CS on...I know that sucks, but there really isn't much that can be done about it.  Only if you could prove severe neglect will you get any kind of change.

My DH and I go through the same thing with his son.  This time SS came in with under ware so small they wouldn't even fit my DS!!  SS is 16 and my DS is 12!!  So both my DH and I took him shopping...we could care less about the money...we just want to be sure SS has what he needs!!

Many of us have been on this site for years (I've been here over 10 years) we do know what it is we are talking about.

[Kitty C.]

How a CP uses CS has been a big bone of contention on this site since inception of this site, along with all the other major issues that brought us all here in the first place.  Unfortunately, the courts do not require the CP to justify where that money is spent.  Like Giggles, we've had our own issues with this in the past as well, with BM sending SS in second-hand clothes from the SKIN out, including underwear.  When DH found out about it, he pitched a fit with BM, telling her that if she can't budget her money any better so that she can afford the basics, which DH contributes to with CS, then he would file for modification.  She also sent SS in clothing inappropriate for the climate....quilted sweats in the summer and thin t-shirts in the winter.  But when we picked up SS on Xmas the first year we were together, he was dressed to the nines (his socks even matched his outfit!) because she didn't know if we would be going to MY family or HIS family for Xmas. 

But now that you've given more info on how BM interacts with your SD, it puts the whole thing in a different light for me.  If you do go to court, I would strongly recommend that a psych eval. be done on SD, with both parents participating, so that the evaluator can see how the child interacts with either parent and separately.  Depending on whom you talk to and what their qualifications are, what the BM is doing to her could very well be considered mental  and emotional abuse.  And yes, DHS does act on those cases because I've dealt with it firsthand.   Have you ever spoken to anyone at her school about any concerns they have regarding her emotional maturity?  I would also investigate that as well.  Having a 3rd party objective opinion on the situation adds strength to your case.

And having said that, I believe that your SD would probably do quite well if you were to put her on a plane, because it is obvious that you would be able to prepare her properly...but it is also obvious that BM would NOT and it would be severely traumatic to SD.

[MixedBag]

Giggles -- I completely agree with what you said -- though in my situation when I took my girls to the babysitter and they did the clinging thing, I didn't feel "I" was contributing -- however in the poster's case, I understand how the child's BM is contributing.

Having that window where I could see OD calmed down helped me see that it was an act she was putting on.

I sincerely hope this family who has come here for help has a successful experience if they have to send the child back as an unaccompanied minor.  It's scary for all parties the first time -- but it works and it's safe.

jgaff78 -- Think of the child being treated like "certified mail" where someone has to show ID, and sign for them along every step of the way.

As for your other concerns like child support -- I too am on the side of that ain't gonna work.