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Author Topic: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?  (Read 8842 times)

SuperDad52

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Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« on: Apr 10, 2011, 02:52:29 PM »
Ok, this is how it all worked out.  Ex and I went to court long drawn out process but now its over.  She got what she wanted and the judge allowed her to move from FL to N.Y.  However, she decided that she isn't going to move until after summer. The final hearing was in Jan., I received papers in the mail stating the new visitation schedule dated Feb 25th.  It also states
5. "Except as otherwise specifically set forth herein, all prior orders and judgments of the Court shall remain in full force and effect.
6."The Court reserves jurisdiction over the parties and subject matter of this proceeding for purposes of enforcement and modification.
    Then it is dated and stamped with GM's name.

The visitation schedule states that I get my son for spring break on odd number of years and she does for even number of years.  Also, my summer visitation is the first 4 weeks of the summer.  Our old order states that I don't have any spring break visitation and I have 2 weeks during the summer.

Now, with all that said.  Ex told me today that I'm not getting my son for spring break and I'm only getting him for 2 weeks during the summer because she said that we don't have to abide by the new order until she "MOVES" and if she never moves then we'll always go by the old order and my "Limited" visitation will remain in effect.  Does this sound right?

Thanks!!


Kitty C.

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #1 on: Apr 10, 2011, 03:31:00 PM »
Nope!  Your ex is giving her own interpretation to fit what SHE wants.  When you have old orders and new orders, the only things that change are what is specifically stated in the new orders, and everything else stays the same.  And you're not the first parent to have an ex try to manipulate it.  Since the only things that were changed were spring break and length of time during summer, everything else does stay the same.  BUT if there is NO mention in the new order that this will only go into effect IF she moves, you are absolutely right.
 
The problem is, you can try to convince her that she has signed the agreement and since there is no mention that it only goes into effect if she moves, then it is an official order NOW.  If she refuses, then your only recourse would be to file contempt against her if she refuses to allow you to have spring break with your son.  You cannot file contempt until after an order has been ignored.
 
One thing you do have going for you, and that is the court is maintaining jurisdiction.  So if she does move and causes problems (or a modification is filed), she will have to come back to FL to answer to them.
Handle every stressful situation like a dog........if you can't play with it or eat it, pee on it and walk away.......

ocean

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #2 on: Apr 10, 2011, 04:45:15 PM »
New papers should be followed now BUTTT

is she allowing time during the week according to the old orders? If you are seeing child at all then you are using the old papers too right?

If she does not allow the spring break, then file contempt papers and make sure you re-address the summer visit when you go to court....

If she had a lawyer, call him up and tell him she is refusing to follow new orders.....sometimes that works.

Send her a certified letter:
Ex,
According to the new custody papers it states the changes to start on XX. I will be picking XX up for spring break visit on XX at XX according to the new papers. If you do not allow the visit, I will be forced to submit contempt of court papers against you. I will also be picking XX up for our summer visit starting XX and dropping him off at XX. Please let me know where you will be to make arrangements for drop off.
You

If you talk to her lawyer, you can add sentence in there too "please speak to your lawyer and he will explain to you that the new papers are court ordered now as I talk to him on XX date"

Davy

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #3 on: Apr 10, 2011, 11:14:21 PM »
This is for your consideration.  Of course the current (or new) order is as specifically written and it is in no way your obligation to teach her to read or understand the order.  It is the court's responsibility to reprimand the opposer for non-compliance or otherwise creating a fraud  or manipulation on the child and the other parent as well as the court.
 
More importantly, the notation #6. concerning FL maintaining jurisdiction is already legislated by long-standing state (UCCJEA) and federal (PKPA) statues.  That is as long as a parent continues to reside in NY among many other requirements. 
 
In other words, considering the BM's behavior along with the court's endorsement/condoning in allowing a child's long distant relocation  places the child at risk of voiding a relationship with the left-behind parent.   
 
Should history repeat itself (over and over and over) then this FL action is not a done deal.  It is only the beginning of a long, ugly road.   

SuperDad52

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #4 on: Apr 12, 2011, 02:25:45 AM »
Thanks for your replies!!
Davy, you are right this is going to be a long and ugly road.
The Bi&ch about it is I told her that I'd be willing to switch years w/her and she could have our son on for spring break on the odd numbered years and I'll get him on the even years because I do have to work a few of the days during spring break and I didn't want him to be board.  Also, she told him they (her N.Y husband and family) were going to Bush Gardens, Disney and the beach that week so my son informed me he'd rather be w/his mom.  So, it kind of sucks for me.  I want him to enjoy him self but she always does this to me!!  Always promising him big plans on my time then I have to be the a$$ dad and tell him no or forfeit my time because she don't give me make-up time.  I hate to say it because I love watching him grow up but she is making this absolutely miserable but I can't wait until he turns 18.

I guess we'll end up back in court because I will file contempt if she denies my visitation.  But, I'm sure like every time in the past the judge won't fault her for anything. Stupid FN system!!


MixedBag

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #5 on: Apr 12, 2011, 06:36:00 AM »
Sounds like you also need a copy of Divorce Poison -- schedulin "fun" stuff on your time is not the right thing to do.  And the book talks about this.
 
If she's already starting this stuff now.....you need to nip it in the butt now and have all the available resources in your hands to do so.
 
old vs. new....
 
I'd say the "old" defines a "close distance" parenting schedule, and the new defines the long distance parenting schedule.

Kitty C.

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #6 on: Apr 12, 2011, 09:18:52 AM »
One thing to keep in mind, SuperDad.........if she is planning all these 'over-the-top' events for him, sooner or later she won't be able to back it up.  Regardless, she will continue the up the ante and will come to a point where she can't put her money where her mouth is........because she doesn't have the money!  So another thing you need to be prepared for is for your son to be incredibly disappointed and/or PO'd at his mom for making promises that she can't keep.
Handle every stressful situation like a dog........if you can't play with it or eat it, pee on it and walk away.......

SuperDad52

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #7 on: Apr 12, 2011, 03:02:44 PM »
Yes Kitty, for the average woman this would be an accurate statement.  However, this particular woman won't go w/out money.  She don't work but she will date/be with/marry anyone with money and will pay her way/lifestyle.  At one point when my son was 7 (11 now) he said to me "dad, isn't it funny how only rich guys like my mom".  Need I say more.  I watched her date someone old enough to be her grandfather for over a year (we're both in our mid 30's).  I am very happy with my family, house and piece of land in the county but if I go w/out work for a few weeks things will get ugly financially and my ex know this and uses this as her "power" against me and my relationship w/my son.  Sometimes I tell him he has to come to my house and he will be mad at me for not letting him go do the "fun stuff" w/his mom but when he gets to the house he is perfectly fine.  Kinda weird really, but crazy enough through all of this for the last 10 years somehow my son and I have a Great relationship!!  And I thank the Good Lord for this many times a week when I lay down for bed.

:)

nancymd

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #8 on: Apr 20, 2011, 08:38:45 PM »
My DH's ex always scheduled a full agenda of fun things (parties, swimming, fishing, cookouts, etc) during our visitation. It would take us all year to save the money to go spend a few days with them and our old car typically broke down several times during the trip. They lived 4 states away which took about 15 hours driving one way and DH does not have paid vacations. We were lucky to be able to take them for a meal during 4 days of being there. BM kept telling us that she wanted us to be one big happy family but we didn't want to spend 4 days sitting in her living room being glared at by her DH while the kids were off with their friends. The kids barely spoke to us when they were there. He didn't want to be a mean dad and take them away from all these fun activities.

The kids are all emancipated now but the damage was done. I am on very friendly texting terms with the fiancee of the 25 year old. She wants to move here because there are more opportunities but they are living with Mommy and he won't leave. She's even tried to get him to visit us and he won't.

Although the CO says he gets regular visitation, we can't see them if we go and they have never been allowed to come to our home. They have even passed, numerous times, within a few miles of our home on the way to drop them off at a family member's house so BM and her DH could go on their annual month in the Bahamas but we couldn't have them at our house.

SuperDad52

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #9 on: Apr 25, 2011, 01:40:15 PM »
Can someone help me decipher what the CO means.


It states:
2. The former wife's request to relocate is hereby granted.  Therefore, the parties are directed to comply with the following post-relocation schedule:
       a. The parties are to
            1.  Alternate two-night weekends
            2.  Alternate spring break with the father getting the odd number of years and the mother getting even.


And, here's what happened.  I picked up my son for my weekend visitation and didn't take him home on sunday which is the start of my spring break visitation.  She called many times and I told her what I was doing (but she already knew) and she cursed me up and down.  So, if someone can tell me does the above verbiage mean the new order starts when she moves to NY or does it start when it was signed and dated?

BECAUSE, BM is interpreting that CO don't start until she moves because it say "post-relocation schedule", is this true?

She acually called the police on me last night and they came out but didn't do anything, I showed him the CO and he said looks legit to him and now she is taking me back to court for more cs and this issue (she is going to try to get me arrested for kidnapping).  My attorney called to let me know but want's me to reload my retainer before we talk about this here case.


Thanks for  ur insight!!!!

Simplydad

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #10 on: Apr 25, 2011, 01:55:16 PM »
What it means to me is that your ex wife has been granted permission to move and that since she has been given permission to move you now have to abide by the "post relocation schedule".  Since there is no future date it means that order is effective from the date the judge signs the order.
 
So it means that since it is 2011 you get your son for spring break in 2011 and she gets him for 2012.
 
Nothing she can do about any of that.
 
She has no claims for kidnapping and the cop leaving has already proven that.   As long as you have a copy of the new order that is nothing she can do.
 
I am not sure about your state but many states require a change in circumstance for child support to be increased.  There may or may not be a case for that but I thought that was a matter for the state attorney general after the divorce was final but I could be wrong on that.

ocean

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #11 on: Apr 25, 2011, 02:05:48 PM »
Yup, she is just mad.
If she files in court, then you respond that you are following the judges orders and the policeman agreed with you. (get copy of police report).
Tell your lawyer, you fire him for the time being....this way she can not call or send paperwork for him to read and you get billed.

Most states make you wait 3-5 years for an increase if nothing else has changed. (and you can say she file the same day she was mad that you had child for spring break...). If you get paperwork on it, respond that there has not been a change of circumstance. (it may even get kicked back to her anyway ...th courts might not accept it).

MixedBag

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #12 on: Apr 25, 2011, 02:26:24 PM »
I beg to differ.....
 
post-relocation is after she relocates.  She's still in the same old situation (if I remember right) and hasn't relocated.
 
That being my opinion, I go back to what does it say for "close distances" vs. the new situation, post-relocation, and Spring Break Easter?
 
Personally, i think if she takes this to court, she won't come out a winner etc...
 
 

Simplydad

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #13 on: Apr 25, 2011, 02:59:04 PM »


Personally, i think if she takes this to court, she won't come out a winner etc...


 
I think that if it went to court she would have thoroughly pissed the judge off by taking his order and using it as a weapon.  It is a dangerous game she is playing and could wind up having the decision reversed.

Kitty C.

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #14 on: Apr 25, 2011, 03:13:02 PM »



Personally, i think if she takes this to court, she won't come out a winner etc...



I think that if it went to court she would have thoroughly pissed the judge off by taking his order and using it as a weapon.  It is a dangerous game she is playing and could wind up having the decision reversed.

 
And I recommend that you request that SHE pay for ALL atty. fees and court costs if she does take this to court and loses.  Might make her think twice about going forward with it.......
Handle every stressful situation like a dog........if you can't play with it or eat it, pee on it and walk away.......

SuperDad52

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #15 on: Apr 25, 2011, 06:35:30 PM »
I thank everyone for your replies/an input.  I take it all in and make my decissions based on majority input.  I love this site and all of you!!  I anxiously await any more input!

Thanks a million,
Superdad

MixedBag

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #16 on: Apr 25, 2011, 06:56:29 PM »
definitely what Kitty said...
 
 

SuperDad52

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #17 on: Apr 25, 2011, 07:10:33 PM »
I beg to differ.....

post-relocation is after she relocates.  She's still in the same old situation (if I remember right) and hasn't relocated.

That being my opinion, I go back to what does it say for "close distances" vs. the new situation, post-relocation, and Spring Break Easter?

Personally, i think if she takes this to court, she won't come out a winner etc...




MixedBag, I'm confused what you mean by this.  Sounds like your saying because she hasn't moved we should go by the old order but then you say "Personally, i think if she takes this to court, she won't come out a winner ect...."

Please clarify,
Thanks a bunch

Kitty C.

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #18 on: Apr 25, 2011, 09:13:44 PM »




Personally, i think if she takes this to court, she won't come out a winner etc...



I think that if it went to court she would have thoroughly pissed the judge off by taking his order and using it as a weapon.  It is a dangerous game she is playing and could wind up having the decision reversed.


And I recommend that you request that SHE pay for ALL atty. fees and court costs if she does take this to court and loses.  Might make her think twice about going forward with it.......

 
Correction:  tell her that you will petition the court that SHE pay for ALL atty. fees and court costs if she does take this to court and loses.  This would be the only time I would give her a heads-up on what you're planning........
Handle every stressful situation like a dog........if you can't play with it or eat it, pee on it and walk away.......

Davy

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #19 on: Apr 25, 2011, 09:53:37 PM »
IMHO, Dad should assume a ... no mercy ... no grace stance and consider any filing on her part as an opportunity to request the court to rescind the relocation based on the BM's CONTINUED poor behavior as an indicator that matters are likely to get worse for the child following relocation.  There's plenty  of statistical material to support this position.
 
There is absolutly no advantage to forwarn the opposing party.  In fact some may construe such forwarning as harrassment and/or provacation or just an excuse to let her mouth run.

MixedBag

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #20 on: Apr 26, 2011, 06:03:18 AM »
That's what I'm leaning towards.
 
I think you have a close distance order that outlines parenting time in the original order, and a long distance (new post-relocation) order that outlines parenting time AFTER/POST her move.
 
I think I asked what the original order says about your parenting time, spring break, easter -- don't remember reading an answer.
 
I think that the two orders work together to give you a complete picture.
 
I believe that waaaaaay back when Soc was here, he would say that whatever was in the original order stays UNLESS changed by subsequent orders.  If your new order that gives her permission to move says "post-relocation" -- then I'd say that kicks in AFTER she moves and not beforehand.
 
In terms of the holidays, I hope that they line up so that if Easter was with Dad this year in the original order, Easter should be with Dad in the long distance order/post-relocation order.
 
THEN.....look up 3 elements of contempt....again in Soc's section.  I don't think that your situation has met all three elements in order for her to successfully get a contempt charge awarded in court.
 
Lastly.....yes to what Kitty said -- tell mom that IF she files, then you will be asking the court to reimburse you for all of your costs due to her frivilous actions.
 
On the flip side -- if she files a "Motion for Clarification" -- to get this situation cleared up and defined, then I doubt you will get your costs back.  Contempt, yes a much better chance.
 
In my orders (2 mine, and 1 EX#3), we had a close distance (like EOW) schedule, and a long distance parenting time plan built right in from the beginning because we were all connected to the military which meant moving around so the long distance part was put in there from the beginning.  But until a move happened, there was a need for a close distance plan.
 
 

tigger

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #21 on: Apr 26, 2011, 06:20:27 AM »
I think the biggest test is going to be if there are any aspects of the old order that you are utilizing as a short distance visitation.

In other words, if the short distance order says that you get midweek overnight or a midweek dinner and you are using it but it's not in the long distance order then you've shown that that's the order you wanted to follow until she moved.  But then you liked the idea of having all of Spring Break that's given to you in the new order so you decided to follow that part of the new order.  It really all depends on if you are following the new order to the letter already or if you're picking and choosing between the two orders as to what suits you best.
The wonderful thing about tiggers is I'm the only one!

SuperDad52

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #22 on: Apr 26, 2011, 09:34:19 AM »
well, I have been getting my son on Wednesdays which is not in the new order or old order.  It was a verbal agreement when we was in court.  Happened like this.  BM sat there telling the judge "I just wish he would spend more time w/his son that all I want but he wont" (Huge lie).  So at the end of the hearing while we were all about to get up and leave my attorney said , before we leave would you (talking to me) like to discuss any options and or times that you may be able to get your son seeings how BM offered.  I said yes and the judge said ok ya'll go ahead I don't have to be in here for this and she left.  That left me and BM and both attorneys in the room and we aggreed on Wed after school until 8:30pm.
So yes I am still going by that which isn't in any order at all but I still want my extended time sharing that is in the new order.  Spring break is not in the old order at all, I have never gotten my son during spring break this is the first time in 11 years and it's a freaking problem.  It's always a problem! My old order show 2 weeks during the summer, last year I got 4 days because BM called him, made him upset about she almost died in a plane crash (they had to make an emergency landing because they ran out of fuel)  believe that?) told him about all these toys she had bought for him and he wanted to go home.  That night was a B#$%h!  She had him crying at 10pm when I thought was in bed (I was) and he came into my room all upset w/his mother on the phone wanting to go home, she drove out to my house to pick him up (30 min) and had my son on the phone the entire time, all the way until he walked out my door and half way across the way to her car.  For a visual, I live in a house w/no neighbors on several acres of land and her car was sitting in my front yard.
Now, she told me yesterday that I'm not getting my son on Wednesdays anymore because I've pissed her off and she hopes I look good in an orange suit, I guess I'm going to jail ..  Oh, well....
Oh, and something else.......My son has a cast on his foot (thank the lord that didn't happen at my house) and is suppose to get it off Wednesday morning, I called her yesterday to get the time and location of the Dr. and she wouldn't give it to me..she just kept yelling and telling me that we will be in court on Wed. for an emergency hearing.
And, now I'm wondering if I need to go into the court room with an attorney or not.  All were going to be doing is have the judge decipher what her order says and c.s and child support is pretty much a form that tell it all and here is what you will pay sir.  I did just get a new job (actually I start Monday) and am going to make another $5-6 an hour so she should be really happy w/that.

MixedBag

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #23 on: Apr 26, 2011, 10:16:37 AM »
o.k., so mom is a real -- ummmm....winner.
 
her past behavior really isn't relevant to what we're trying to help you figure out.
 
WHAT does the original order say regarding the time that your child gets to spend with you?
 
And what does the NEW order say regarding time with the child?
 
And yes, I understand that Wed's evenings are based on a verbal agreement.
 
Tigger's logic is right.....

MixedBag

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #24 on: Apr 26, 2011, 10:22:50 AM »
let me add something from personal experience.....and three "wonderful" decrees we dealt with.
 
EX#1....received half/6 weeks over the summer, and one week alternating Christmas and Thanksgiving over 20 years ago.
 
Then I/NCP received half/6 weeks over the summer, and one week alternating Christmas, Thanksgiving, and Easter/Spring break.
 
I thought I was doing well -- negotiated a good deal for a long distant parent.
 
EX#3/NCP received 8 weeks in the summer, and alternated one week over 4 holidays -- added New Years into the mix.
 
I sat back and thought wow......I should have asked for a week over New Years too.
 
BUT I had no reason (that wonderful significant change in circumstances) to go BACK and ask for that additional week.
 
So.....I sat tight until I retired....and the rest is really not relevant.
 
What I'm trying to say is that the definition or "standard" period of time a child spends with either parent has changed and evolved over time, and it's really really important to get it right during the initial rounds.
 
After the initial round, the standard or REASON to modify the order changes, and the thought that a child is better off by spending as close to 50/50 with both parents is not logical in court or assumed in court.

SuperDad52

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #25 on: Apr 26, 2011, 11:07:41 AM »
old order:
2 weeks during the summer-tbd by the parents (this is a nightmare because well, the obvious)
alternating weekends friday to sunday 6pm to 6pm
Christmas - christmas eve is the day before christmas eve time not stated to 8 pm on christmas eve night
Thanksgiving - split thanksgiving day (this has happened three times and is nearly impossible)
Halloween - split holloween outing (this has only happened once and is dumb)


new order:
alternate two-night weekends
Alternate school vacations-
      Thanksgiving in odd-numbered years with father and even with mother
      Christmas in odd-numbered years with mother and even with father
      Spring break odd-numbered years with father and even with mother
      Summer time-sharing: four continuous weeks each with the mother having the the first four weeks after school recesses in the even0-numbered years and the father having the first four weeks after school recessed in the odd-numbered years. The last four weeks ending the Friday preceding the resumption of classes for the fall term of school.

There it is.......so now with all that said, if we/when we go back to court for this here spring break issue I can see many things that need to be addressed.  These are the papers I got after the judge made her decision their was no negotiating any visitation or anything this is it and I can see many issues that will arise.  There are not set times or days for Thanksgiving, Christmas, or Spring Break which will become an issue, I KNOW!!

This is really sad, the only times BM and I really get into it is when I want to see my boy.

MixedBag

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #26 on: Apr 26, 2011, 12:10:04 PM »
o.k., I see the old order defining when the weekend starts and ends -- even though this is not in the new order.
 
I see the new order still has an EOW provision, like the old order -- so it's a close distance situation still.
 
I see the new order mentions "school vacations" that actually expand the times in the old order which is normally what happens for a long distance plan.
 
I would take the older orders' "time for weekends" as the start time for school vacations -- like 6 pm on the last day of school to 6 pm on the day before school resumes.
 
What does this mean? "The last four weeks ending the Friday preceding the resumption of classes for the fall term of school."  Where does this fit in because the 4 weeks of summer were defined.
 
I can also see how Mom would think "old order" -- since her point of view seems to be to limit (reduce) your time with the child.
 
 
 
 

tigger

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #27 on: Apr 26, 2011, 10:22:23 PM »
So it would seem her intent is obvious.  I don't think she has a leg to stand on although if she's crazy enough to take it to court, I would counter with a request for clarification and specific times. 

My ex and I had "after school or 12 noon if a non-school day" until 6 p.m. Sunday (or Monday if it were Memorial Day or Labor Day).  For our (parental) birthdays we had after school or 12 noon if a non-school day until 9 p.m.  That automatically caused a problem with my birthday because if my birthday lands on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday, it's on Labor Day weekend so I had it written that on years when that happened, my birthday time was to be the following Tuesday.  (I didn't want the birthdays in there but if he was going to insist, I wanted to make sure we prevented future issues.)

We went back and adjusted the times for the holidays so that we no longer split the actual holiday.  (1/2 day Thanksgiving, Easter, etc.)  It was exhausting for both kids and adults.  That one was my fault.  When we were writing the original order I didn't think I could stand the thought of missing an entire holiday with them.  It was better for everyone involved to have whole holidays and yes, I survived.  I actually preferred it. 

The first two orders were "mediated" just between us (and our lawyers).  The last order was ordered by a judge because we couldn't agree . . . actually we could agree but he wanted everything to happen immediately whereas I wanted a gradual transition to monitor YS' reaction.  He actually lost time by taking me to court as the judge was put off by his change from wanting 50/50 to reversing custody without cause and he ended up with 40/60 roughly and a kid who doesn't want to be there at all. 

Is there any chance of her calming down and being reasonable?
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SuperDad52

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #28 on: Apr 26, 2011, 10:54:06 PM »
Their is no chance of her calming down and being reasonable!!!!!
Here's what happened.
BM showed up earlier today with the cops.  The cop and I had words and I was very assertive of how BM is always bribing my son away from me on my time with him with all the extravigant adventures not to mention the new puppy she just bought him yesterday.  Oh, he was so ready to go home it wasn't funny (AT ALL).  So, the cop tells me that he can't force my son to leave with his mother but he can't stop him either.  I instructed all of them to leave my yard (cop, BM and new stepdad) and as soon as the cop left out of the garage I closed the garage door behind him, at the same time I heard my front door close and looked out the window and seen my son walking out side.  I followed and my son said he wanted to go w/his mom.  I did tell him no once and BM and I had some words and my son started walking over to BM car and said he wanted to go again.  At this point my options are very limited!  I didn't want to force my son to stay when he wanted to go and I surly didn't want to get arrested for doing what was going through my mind so I had to let him get into the car and watch them drive away as the cop and I finished our little bitch session.
I can't take it anymore.  I've lived the last 10 years like this and I'm having an emotional break down.  I'm a loving father who has lost all grip on everything.  I'm done putting myself through this.  I know my boy is 11 and only wants to do all the fun things that mom promises him on my time or hers BM really don't care she always gets her way and I'm always on the outside looking in and I can't take it anymore.  I can not compete with what (whoever she doin) financially and it has taken a toll.  SHE WINS!!  My visitations are over.  I'ma contact my attorney and have her submit a form if one exist and release my rights before I end up in prison for snapping.  Theirs many kids w/out a father in their live because the father don't want anything to do w/them and now their will be one more because of his mother and the court system. I'm sorry Austin, I love you!

Thanks for all your help with everything through all of this!
Defeatedad52

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #29 on: Apr 26, 2011, 11:34:53 PM »
Are you 100% sure you WANT to give up your rights? Remember that you are making that choice based on BM, not based on what you want, or what your son needs and deserves (you in his life). This all needs to be brought before the judge, so that the judge can see the games she plays. You need to work to get a VERY specific Court Order. The new order is the legal one--the portions of the old order regarding visitations were overwritten by the new one. Just because BM chose not to move does not make the new Order null and void, unless there is a provision in the new one SPECIFICALLY stating that it only is valid if there is a long distance between the homes.
 
Is there any way to get it COed that BM NOT be allowed on your property (if you don't give up your rights)? That could help to prevent her from showing up during your visitations.

tigger

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #30 on: Apr 27, 2011, 06:08:47 AM »
I know it's hard but I would encourage you not to give up.  Your son is about to hit his teen years and he's really going to need you more than ever.  File contempt charges and ask for specific times and for her not to be allowed to interfere and with consequences if she does.  (Mixed Bag or Ocean would have suggestions as to what the consequences would be.  I've it from one of them but can't remember which one or what they are.)
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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #31 on: Apr 27, 2011, 06:20:07 AM »
Make up time is the consequence.

Dad, you did the right thing.

Another suggestion is that "you not be home" when you know there's gonna be a disagreement about where your son is supposed to be so that total confrontations are avoiced.

When the kids are smaller, and I mean physically smaller, then I could see Mom's defense in court being "but he let them come back early" -- but as they get bigger and older, you can't physically stop them from leaving as you learned.

But you can stop mom from showing up EARLY to entice them to leave -- and you can ask the court for make up time -- and maybe a the same time get a clarification of the order by adding details.
 
And if I read your current order right -- your son should be with you the first four weeks of the summer -- odd year -- right? 

SuperDad52

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #32 on: Apr 27, 2011, 07:42:29 AM »
yes that is true, I do get the first 4 weeks of summer however, BM has already told me I'm only getting him for 2 weeks because that is what the old order says.  So, unless we make it back to court before then I guess that is what I'll get.
And I learned something yesterday.  From what I saw mom can come and get my son anytime she wants, say Saturday morning on her way to Disney World on my weekend as long as she has a cop and my son says he wants to go to whatever she has planed.
I have never had to force my son to come over but anything longer than my weekend he always wants to go home because what BM has promised him, all the fun things.  Unfortunately, I'm in the extremely small percentage of people that have to WORK for a living (sarcasm), so sometimes when he is here I'll be at work. And she can buy him away from me because she don't work.  Side note this is kinda funny, I asked my son "so is your mom still working at the apt complex (she got a job there while we were going through court and she quit work as soon as court was over) and he said no she quit she said what's the point in working.  I just casually asked as we were driving past the office.
So, I slept on it and I came up with two options
1. Send her (and maybe her new hub) a text telling them that they win.  I can no longer fight, I'm done emotionally and financially. So, if my son wants to come over to my house for my so call visitation schedule then he's welcome but if he doesn't then he don't have to.
OR
2. Borrow the money (again) charge her with contempt and watch as the judge does nothing


What about this also, last year while we were going through the whole "relocation battle" I also threw in there that I'd filed contempt twice.  One for her not letting my son come over for my scheduled weekend and the other for her taking my son (almost like yesterday) after 4 days of my 2 week summer visitation and nothing was ever resolved with those two cases at the end of the day only the "Relocation".
Think it's possible to bring those two cases up again and see if the judge entertains any thoughts w/them when I file contempt for yesterdays spring break shurade? <---I spelled that word so bad even spell check don't even know what I'm trying to spell.


any thoughts?
extremely frustratedad52

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #33 on: Apr 27, 2011, 08:51:17 AM »

Ok, this is how it all worked out.  Ex and I went to court long drawn out process but now its over.  She got what she wanted and the judge allowed her to move from FL to N.Y.  However, she decided that she isn't going to move until after summer. The final hearing was in Jan., I received papers in the mail stating the new visitation schedule dated Feb 25th.  It also states
5. "Except as otherwise specifically set forth herein, all prior orders and judgments of the Court shall remain in full force and effect.
6."The Court reserves jurisdiction over the parties and subject matter of this proceeding for purposes of enforcement and modification.
    Then it is dated and stamped with GM's name.

The visitation schedule states that I get my son for spring break on odd number of years and she does for even number of years.  Also, my summer visitation is the first 4 weeks of the summer.  Our old order states that I don't have any spring break visitation and I have 2 weeks during the summer.

Now, with all that said.  Ex told me today that I'm not getting my son for spring break and I'm only getting him for 2 weeks during the summer because she said that we don't have to abide by the new order until she "MOVES" and if she never moves then we'll always go by the old order and my "Limited" visitation will remain in effect.  Does this sound right?

Thanks!!

Kitty C.

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #34 on: Apr 27, 2011, 09:15:59 AM »
Let me ask you this:  if your son were to come to you for your CO'd summer time, do you have anything planned?  If so, then as long as you're not home, she can't take him!  Another alternative..........do you have relatives in the area?  If so (and you have to work while he is with you), spend that 4 weeks with a relative.  What I'm getting at is come up with some plan so that there is NO way she can try to get him early, no matter how badly she wants to.  I don't even know if it's possible, but considering the 'scene' she just created, is it possible to request exchanges take place in a neutral location (like Micky D's or a park)?  If so, then you have every right to have her charged with trespassing if she does show up on your property............unless she's stupid enough to stand on the street and make a scene.

Think about this:  as badly as you are huring right now (and I certainly understand why), giving up on your son is NOT the answer.  Because I can tell you exactly what will happen...........she will tell your son that you're given up on him, you don't care about him, and you don't want him anymore.  And she will continue to beat that into his brain until he has SO much anger and animosity towards you that hopes of rekindling a relationship once he becomes an adult would be very slim indeed.

If you feel that you're on the edge, get help to stabilize and ground yourself.  Your son NEEDS you to fight for him, though he may not be able to voice that right now.  There's also another scenario that eventually could play out.....BM continues to lavish DS with anything and everything he wants, but as he gets older, he will 'play' her for it, using her generosity against her by asking for more and more, because she is setting NO boundaries for him.  Unless she is incredibly loaded or has access to unlimited funds, eventually there will come a time where she will say no....maybe for that Ferrari that he wants for his 16th birthday?  And when he realizes that she won't give in to him (and subconsciously realizes that she's used him all along), he will become VERY angry and hurt.  She either can't or won't want to deal with him, hand him over to you, tell you that it's all YOUR fault because you bailed on him (regardless of her part in it), and leave you to clean up the mess.  This scenario may sound far-fetched..........but it is also very possible, given what has happened so far.  The writing is already on the wall......

On a MUCH smaller scale, my SS's BM did the same thing to him (some form of PAS, that is what your DS's BM is doing to him) when SS was younger.  He is now 17, will be 18 in Feb., graduates in May 2012.........and is just chomping at the bit to get the hell out of her house.  He knows now that all her tactics were just a ploy to keep him from DH and he is certainly angry at her about it.  Luckily we've managed to keep him on an even keel, but not without some bumps along the way.  And it's only because BM has toned down her antics since her second divorce...suddenly we weren't so bad, since she NEEDED us because she couldn't rely on a husband anymore.  And I saw this coming from a LONG way off....when SS was only 4-5.
Handle every stressful situation like a dog........if you can't play with it or eat it, pee on it and walk away.......

tigger

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #35 on: Apr 27, 2011, 10:01:20 AM »
Kitty's right.  In my case it was the SM who was manipulative and convinced my then 16yo that I didn't love him because I was at my brother's babysitting my nephews when he got home from church after his weekend with his dad instead of waiting at the door with a plate full of food.  This had been building because I had set limits and I knew even if I couldn't prove it when he was up to something.  Next thing I know, he's angry and bitter and moved out of my house and into his dad's because I was just too strict and mean.  Mean, really?  Because I wouldn't let him watch sex filled rated R movies with no plot and no substance?  The only purpose of those movies was to see how much sex they could get into them and still have a R rating instead of a NC17.  Because I required him to call me when he left point A and arrived at point B and to call me when plans change.  The same rules I have for my now almost 17yo YS who has no problems with the rules at all.  At his dad's house he had no curfew, came and went as he pleased and did what he wanted when he wanted . . . until he turned 19.  All of a sudden his dad became concerned.  Perhaps he should have been concerned when his 16 yo started drinking and partying because there were no rules and not enough contact with him to know something was up.  I didn't even live with him and I knew he was partying and going to church only for appearance sake.  However, I never walked away from him.  I didn't chase him but I didn't throw him away either.  Ocean and a few others can attest to the walk I've made over the past almost 6 years.  I couldn't fight for him because of his age but I was always there for him . ..  not to bail him out but to help him navigate whatever mess he got himself into.  When he was in a bind, I loaned, not gave money.  Taught him how to budget and reconcile his account.  He went three years without speaking to me if he could help it.  He played nice in front of people at church but spewed venom when we were alone.  He ran out of gas the other day and called me because he knew I'd be there for him.  Technically, his dad was closer to him (by a 1/2 mile) but he knew I'd come without lecture (who hasn't done something like that?).  He loves his dad but knows that the SM twisted everything and led him down a road he didn't need to take (no, she's not to blame for his decision to drink but I'm betting if he had tried to drink in my house or if there hadn't been a financial incentive to keep him happy at his dad's the drinking would have been nipped in the bud).  One thing that he'll tell people today was that I never walked away from him.  No matter what.  That doesn't mean I didn't call him out on the carpet for his behavior or his attitude but again, I helped him navigate the waters and didn't just pluck him from waters or allow him to take me down with him or merely left him to drown.  Even his stepbrother who is being manipulated to abandon a relationship with his dad knows that his dad is always there for him.  When he got lost in the area where his mom grew up, it was his dad that he called for directions and guidance back to familiar territory. 

I know you're frustrated and hurt and angry.  All natural feelings.  Your child needs you.  He needs to know that even while his mom was playing games and distorting the truth, his dad was steadfast and always there.  When he's older he'll recognize the truth of his childhood and your relationship will be stronger.
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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #36 on: Apr 27, 2011, 11:23:51 AM »
What they all said...
 
Get yourself a copy of Divorce Poison,.....yesterday.  Go find it on Ebay or Amazon.com.  Seriously.
 
Read it front to back, and then back to front.
 
Highlight it, make notes and learn.
 
Do not give up on your son.
 
I used to tell my son that if HE didn't stand up for his rights to spend time with me, his MOM, then somebody has to do it, and that would have to be ME.
 
File a "Motion for Clarification" and include a request that Mom not arrive at your home until specifically allowed to via the court order and explain that even with the recent court order, there have been arguments over when the child is to be with is father, when the child is to be with his mother, and that the Mother shows up at your home earlier than your interpretation of the order and entices the child to leave early.
 
You might not need an attorney for all that -- saving you dollars -- because you're not trying to say either one of you is right in your interpretation -- you're asking for clarification to eliminate/reduce arguments that are already happening so soon after the order.
 
Do not, do not give up on your son.

ocean

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Re: Old papers vs new papers, what's right?
« Reply #37 on: Apr 27, 2011, 03:18:24 PM »
I agree...file motion for clarification yourself in court. (and write that mother came over before parenting time was over with police to ask son to come home-interfering with father's parenting plan). Ask for exchanges at a police station or is possible pick up from school and mother not be permitted to pick up child on fathers days. You can maybe even get a restraining order on her that she drop/pick up from curb only.

Also, be a little firm with your son that this is dad's time, you know he loves his mom and mom may try to get you early but the judge said this is your time since he is with mom a lot more. Tell him to stay in house. Make rules about phone. UNPLUG or turn off ringer when he is there. If she hands him a cell phone, shuts off and kept in kitchen.

Do you think son needs counseling? You can ask the courts to order this too in your motion.

If she gives you son for summer, then you keep him the 4 weeks. Police officer can come into house to see if he is okay but that is it, but if you have a restraining order in place (you have enough from this incident I would think to go now and fill out family court restraining order) to not allow mother on your property, to call you, and email will be the only communication between parties. Then address how exchanges will go.

You can not give up rights unless the step dad will adopt him and then no more child support, so probably will not happen.
The courts do not allow you to give up your rights...you can not pick him up but that this allowing HER to win and not your SON to win.

 

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