Mom Wants to Cut time >50% Again

[Samson2005]

Hi.

Petitioned court to enforce visitation, for specific visitation, and modify visitation (asking for more time and make-up time).

Mom's answer to it all was to submit and request the court to sign off on a schedule that cuts our time by more than 50%... 1wknd/mo, 1 week in summer, almost no holiday time. There was no reason given.

I am prepared to tell the court that her proposed schedule is further evidence of her inability to encourage a close and continuing relationship.

I will die if I leave that court with reduced time as a result of me petitioning for enforcement of visitation.

[mistoffolees]

For what it's worth, that's the way some people react. They think they can scare you into backing down. In the case of my stbx, the more things go against her, the more bizarre her demands.

If she hasn't been giving you the required visitation, your case is probably pretty solid. Does she have any grounds for reducing your visitation time? If not, don't worry about it.

[Samson2005]

Other than having me replaced with a perfectly good stepfather, there is no real reason.  

With her history in mind, she might say anything. She has been lying in court since the beginning. I have documented proof of blatant lies to the court.

[HelpingHands]

Have a prepared printed parenting plan in place.

Actually have a few different versions available- starting with More than you want, what you are actually seeking and then what you'll settle for. Basically,  what you are doing it 'mediating'.  You put up an offer, she puts up an offer, you counter , she modifies and eventually you end up with what you want(or more) to begin with.

If you show that you are willing to  be flexible and are only looking to maximize your child's time with both parents, your judge will see that she's trying to interfere with your time together.

What was your original visitation order? if she's proposing even less, your judge will likely see what she's up to and grant you more visitation. BM did that exact thing every year for the last 7 1/2 years and every single time she tried to limit my time, I ended up with more and eventually custody.

[Samson2005]

Thank you for the responses mistoffolees and helpinghands.

I have been working on a plan that I want.

The present plan is every other weekend, 4 weeks in summer, alternating thanksgiving day, father's day, half of christmas but never christmas day, half of easter break.

her proposed plan to the court is: 1 weekend every 3 weeks beginning on saturday ending sunday, 1 week in summer, alternating TG day, 3 days of christmas break, 3 days of easter break.

[jenkins9]

I just went through the same thing, except the ex tried to have all my visitation taken away. I dont understand what some women think and I really loathe the family courts. How do they expect a dad to build a relationship on 4 days a month and shared holidays. I would offer mediation to her, save on court costs and such. My ex spent over 20,000 trying to keep me from my son. I thank the Lord she lost. Good luck and keep fighting for your rights.

[mistoffolees]

>Other than having me replaced with a perfectly good
>stepfather, there is no real reason.  

Fortunately, that's not a valid reason in most (perhaps all) states.

>
>With her history in mind, she might say anything. She has been
>lying in court since the beginning. I have documented proof of
>blatant lies to the court.

She has to prove her complaint. It's not enough for her to lie, she has to back up her lies with facts. I'm not sure that you'll be able to introduce your evidence unless you can establish the relevance to her claims (for example, if she makes the same lie you caught her at before, you can introduce your evidence. If she makes a NEW lie, I don't believe you can introduce evidence of past lies. I could be wrong about that, though).

Judges are used to people who lie. My stbx is a pathological liar and fortunately everyone involved in the case has seen through her so far.

[Samson2005]

The last time we were in court, she said that daycare had a problem with me picking up the child at school. there was an order drafted that I had to pick up the child from daycare on fridays. I went to the daycare and the administrator wrote a note stating there was no problem with my picking up my child at school. the order was then rewritten.

Previously, all she has to do is say whatever and then I have to chase after evidence to prove her wrong or the court finds for her.

I used to have every weekend until mom decided that she wanted to be able to take the child to church. Our time was then halved. The child has never seen the inside of a church with mom.

[HelpingHands]

How sad to say this but BM did the same thing when we lived near one another. Sundays were cut short because she claimed she took her to church. It was just one more way to limit time and the court bought it hook line and sinker.

[Samson2005]

Mom's atty is taking control of the proceedings and asking for all kinds of financial info. I think that the original petitions will be postponed.  

Would it be prudent to submit an Emergency Petition To Reopen And Modify the Visitation Order to last at least until my petitions can be heard?

One of the grandparents is very ill and has a good relationship with his grandchild but lives many hours away.

It is likely that with the visitation order as it is, the grandparent will be able to see the child only for a day or so during spring break.

Thanks in advance!

[backwardsbike]

Hey- I'm a NCM adn I go thru the same things with a CP father who just wants to repalce me withhis new wife adn only collect the child support thathe takes from my disability pension!  oh, and he makes seven time what I do and fought me to the tune of 40 K for the kids.

I don't think its really fair to say that you don't understand what women think- its more like you don't understadn what alienating parents think.  don't mean to be harsh wit hyou,, firend.  i realize youmight not realize that their aremothers out here in the same boat as you.

And if you are wondering- I'm not a druggie.  I don't have a crimianl past.  i am licensed nurse, hold a four yrear college degree, and currently studying for my master's in counsleor education and am a certifed parent educator!  Clean chid abuse and crinimal clearances.

And I've got the same EOW half of holidays that you all have adn I'm in the SAME county as my kids.  i was forced to move out of thier town due to harrassment from the X for which he was never prosecuted.  i'm told its alwasy that way in divorce adn I just need to get over it!

[Samson2005]

EMERGENCY PETITION

1.   On ********, an order was entered entitled: ****** ORDER RE: CHILD CUSTODY.
2.   The above Order contains provisions for visitation with the child, ******.
3.   Visitation with ****** has frequently been difficult and impossible requiring the Defendant to enter Petitions to Enforce Visitation, for Specific Visitation and to Modify Visitation.
4.   Plaintiff has entered Motions that will likely postpone hearing those Petitions.
5.   Plaintiff has submitted a visitation schedule that would further limit time together with the Defendant and ****** for no good reason.
6.   With good cause, Defendant has presented this Court with this Emergency Petition to Reopen and Modify the *****Order Re: Child Custody.
7.   Defendant has attached to this Petition a specific visitation schedule that will ensure maximum involvement of both parents and ****** during and after litigation that is consistent with the best interest of the child according to statute.

WHEREFORE, Defendant prays:

That this Court enter an Order that will put into effect the visitation schedule that is attached to this Petition to be effective at the time it is entered.

[Samson2005]

No motions were heard or even looked at.

Court said that he saw no reason for us to be there. He asked me when I was supposed to see my daughter again. I said this weekend. He asked mom is she was going to let me have the weekend. she said yes. he asked me if I wanted to have this weekend. I said, yes. He said, see then, there is no problem and I don't see why you are here.

I said that I am not getting my court ordered visitation and that the police will not enforce the order because it is too vague. He said that the order is specific enough and would not reopen it.

Mom then said that she wished that our child would be picked up at her home at 5pm instead of school. So the court reopened the Order to cause me to not pick my daughter up at school.

I objected saying that mom and do not get along and that she wants me at her house only to be able to yell at me. I was told to learn how to live with it.

I then objected saying that a 5pm pickup placed me and the child in rush hour traffic every time and that it is dark then in the winter. I was told to learn to live with it.

Mom then said that our child has reached the age where she should be picked up at 9am on saturday and home at 6pm sunday every third week. That was not ordered.

We were ordered to mediation.

Her lawyer named his favorite mediator and his choice was ordered to use. Mine choice was not considered.

Oh, mom was admonished to obey the court order.

[mistoffolees]

Sounds like my judge.

Some judges just do everything they can to not get involved. Unless  there's imminent harm for the kids, they tell you to work it out yourselves. In my case, it's because the judge is lazy. In your case, it may be more because the judge thinks that in the end it's better if you two work it out.

While it probably feels pretty painful to have to deal with that, the good news is that the judge is also not likely to listen to your ex's whining, so she has just as much incentive to become reasonable as you do.

My personal view is that it's better if the judge doesn't try to extend beyond the original agreement, but you will probably have to work hard to enforce the original agreement. If you're able to accomplish that, you'll at least have the benefit of knowing that you don't have a judge looking over your shoulder.

Or at least that's the possible silver lining.

[Samson2005]

Picking my daughter up at school has been a very positive part of our weekends since pre-school. She is now junior high.

I don't understand how it can be in her best interest to go home to an empty house and wait for me to get there at 5pm.

I feel like we got raped, again. No, we did get raped.

The law says that absent abuse, maximum involvement of both parents with the child are in the child's best interest. Is this a situation for appeal?

[mistoffolees]

>Picking my daughter up at school has been a very positive
>part of our weekends since pre-school. She is now junior high.
>
>
>I don't understand how it can be in her best interest to go
>home to an empty house and wait for me to get there at 5pm.
>
>I feel like we got raped, again. No, we did get raped.

I don't see it.

You have every right to enforce your initial agreement. It sounds like the court essentially reaffirmed that with only minor modifications. If your ex tries to prevent your visitation, you file for contempt - not modification of custody.

In this case, you tried to modify visitation. You lost.

Your ex tried to cut your visitation by 50%. She lost.

The judge told you to both learn to work together and ordered mediation to help (the fact that the mediator was recommended by one side isn't that big a deal - my mediator is my attorney's former law partner and no one seems to care since a mediator can't force you to do anything).

Other than the inconvenience of dealing with rush hour traffic, nobody lost anything of consequence. Seems like the system worked.

Of course, I could be missing something because your posts are unclear in some places.

>
>The law says that absent abuse, maximum involvement of both
>parents with the child are in the child's best interest.

True. That should have been taken into consideration when you signed your initial agreement.

>Is this a situation for appeal?

Probably not - unless you can show a significant change in circumstances. Courts are, in general, going to assume that the agreement you signed should be binding unless you can show a solid change in circumstances or other reason why it should change. I don't see any such change - for either of you - which is why the court didn't change visitation.

[Samson2005]

i apologize if i made it sound as if everything was dismissed, it was not. Thus the title to this post "...no hearing yet." I guess neither of us has lost yet.

I know that it probably seems to be insignificant that I will no longer see my daughter at school on Fridays. But to us, her settling into the car and adjusting to being out of the school environment with me has been precious.

A significant amount of communication occurred at that time that will probably will not happen when we first see each other 2 hours after school is out and her mind is on other things.

The casual contact with the teachers there will no longer happen. I will become a stranger to them and her friends.

That Order was definitely not made to facilitate or encourage a close and continuing relationship with the NCP.

[mistoffolees]

Since there hasn't been any hearing yet, you may well be over-reacting to the situation.

Even if your pickup DOES get changed, I think you'll find that you and your daughter will adjust and the communication that you used to share when you picked her up will take place somewhere else - like in the car from her mother's house to your house.

Just establish a routine for the beginning of your time together and the communication will take are of itself. There's nothing magical about the school environment.

As for contact with the teachers, there's nothing stopping you from continuing to talk with them. You should be particularly attentive to attending parent-teacher conferences and emailing the teacher when you have any concerns or questions.

Finally, I don't know about your school, but at our school, I never see my daughter's friends when I pick her up - everyone's in a hurry to get home. Rather, I make sure to have time to invite her friends over for the weekend.

[Samson2005]

The pickup place and time was changed and went into effect immediately. Mom had a victory there. She has been trying for years to get it fixed so that there is no contact between me and the school.

None of our Petitions or Motions were heard. We did manage to discuss some things after which the judge complained that we turned a 15 minute hearing into a 40 minute one.

We are set for a hearing in 2 months and the judge told mom that there better not be one bump in the road until then. Mom responded, "only until then?" (I was shocked) I asked what about after then?

I have been denied visitation consistently for the past 12.5 years. There are many orders directing mom to comply. Each time in court for enforcement, it is if it were the first occurrence and that the problem will be solved with an admonishment and order directing mom to comply. There was a total of 25 days just last year. When I am denied a weekend, I usually have no contact with my daughter for close to a month. My daughter has become phone shy because of all the yelling mom does when I call.

I filed a petition to enforce visitation, petition for specific visitation, and petition to modify visitation. Over the last 11 years, there have been quite a few substantial changes in circumstances that warrant modification.

As far as talking with the teachers, it was really convenient to be there every other friday. I live 50 miles from there and rarely see any of them when out running errands...

I have had only 2 teachers involve me with conferences. Each year, I have written letters to them expressing interest and wish to be involved in whatever other parents are. I always include 10 SASE so they can send info. Most teachers have only sent copies of report cards (which is better than nothing) There is a website that has a calendar of events that are subject to change and many of the dates are incorrect.

Thanks for reading my posts and responding.

It sounds as though you are doing well with your situation. That is good to hear!  I hope to be there someday! It might be when family court has no jurisdiction over my family, at least there is hope for the "abuse" to end. (A family counselor i have been consulting with recently first used that term in our case)

[mistoffolees]

>The pickup place and time was changed and went into effect
>immediately. Mom had a victory there. She has been trying for
>years to get it fixed so that there is no contact between me
>and the school.

She can only do that if you let her. You are still the child's parent. Talk to the school directly.

>
>None of our Petitions or Motions were heard. We did manage to
>discuss some things after which the judge complained that we
>turned a 15 minute hearing into a 40 minute one.

Then you should focus on getting right to the point and not discussing extraneous issues before your next hearing. Keep it concise and don't waste the judge's time.

>
>We are set for a hearing in 2 months and the judge told mom
>that there better not be one bump in the road until then. Mom
>responded, "only until then?" (I was shocked) I asked what
>about after then?

If the judge told her there'd better not be one bump in the road, you had a major victory. The judge isn't going to tolerate her interfering with your visitation. Keep good records until your next hearing. Better yet, have a witness with you if she doesn't let you take the kids.

That is a major victory - so don't feel bad.

>
>I have been denied visitation consistently for the past 12.5
>years. There are many orders directing mom to comply. Each

And the judge just gave ner a final warning not to screw up.

>time in court for enforcement, it is if it were the first
>occurrence and that the problem will be solved with an
>admonishment and order directing mom to comply. There was a
>total of 25 days just last year. When I am denied a weekend, I
>usually have no contact with my daughter for close to a month.
>My daughter has become phone shy because of all the yelling
>mom does when I call.

Keep records and witnesses. The judge is on your side as near as I can tell from what you said.

>
>I filed a petition to enforce visitation, petition for
>specific visitation, and petition to modify visitation. Over

And what was the result?

>the last 11 years, there have been quite a few substantial
>changes in circumstances that warrant modification.

You haven't mentioned any. If there are substantial changes in circumstances, you have the right to file for custody or change in visitation. If they're not letting you do it, it doesn't sound like the changes are that significant.

>
>As far as talking with the teachers, it was really convenient
>to be there every other friday. I live 50 miles from there and
>rarely see any of them when out running errands...

No one's stopping you from visiting with the teachers if you wish. But very few parents get to do that  every other week.

>
>I have had only 2 teachers involve me with conferences. Each
>year, I have written letters to them expressing interest and
>wish to be involved in whatever other parents are. I always
>include 10 SASE so they can send info. Most teachers have only
>sent copies of report cards (which is better than nothing)
>There is a website that has a calendar of events that are
>subject to change and many of the dates are incorrect.

If you want endless personal attention, hire a private teacher. I'm not sure that very many parents get regular phone calls and letters from their teachers, so I don't think it's a slap in the face that you're not getting letters.

>
>Thanks for reading my posts and responding.
>
>It sounds as though you are doing well with your situation.
>That is good to hear!  I hope to be there someday! It might be
>when family court has no jurisdiction over my family, at least
>there is hope for the "abuse" to end. (A family counselor i
>have been consulting with recently first used that term in our
>case)

I would caution you to stop using it. The counselor has a goal of working on your own mental needs. The courts couldn't care less about your personal needs. Their focus is on the kids. Your focus needs to be on how to work with the system - and claims of abuse don't get you anywhere unless you can prove pretty substantial harm. Focus on learning how the system works. How you present your case succintly. Provide the judge only what they need to hear so it doesn't sound like you're whining about everything. How to provide evidence to support your position. And how you learn to ignore the things that don't matter so you can focus on what does matter.

[Samson2005]

about "abuse" there is a portion of my pleading that included the term. I am pasting part of the pleading below:

Best Interest of the Child. (8)"The willingness and ability of each parent to facilitate and encourage a close and continuing relationship between the other parent and the child." 750 ILCS 5/602 (8).

The amendments included among the purposes of the Illinois Marriage and Dissolution of Marriage Act are to secure the maximum involvement and cooperation of both parents in the child's welfare. See: 750 ILCS 5/102(7): (7) secure the maximum involvement and cooperation of both parents regarding the physical, mental, moral and emotional well-being during and after litigation.

The Best Interest of the Child Defined further states that in the absence of abuse, maximum involvement of both parents is in the Child's Best Interest.

(c) "Unless the court finds the occurrence of ongoing abuse as defined in Section 103 of the Illinois Domestic Violence Act of 1986, the court shall presume that the maximum involvement and cooperation of both parents regarding the physical, mental, moral, and emotional well being of their child is in the best interest of the child..." 750 ILCS 5/602 (c)

The actions of Mom meet the definition of ongoing abuse according to The Illinois Domestic Violence Act of 1986:

(7) "Harassment" (v) improperly concealing a minor child from petitioner, repeatedly threatening to improperly remove a minor child of petitioner's from the jurisdiction or from the physical care of petitioner, repeatedly threatening to conceal a minor child from petitioner, or making a single such threat following an actual or attempted improper removal or concealment, unless respondent was fleeing an incident or pattern of domestic violence. 750 ILCS 60, Section 103

In (750 ILCS 5/607.1), "Enforcement of visitation orders; visitation abuse." It is stated that:

"Visitation abuse occurs when a party has willfully and without justification: (1) denied another party visitation as set forth by the court..." 750 ILCS 5/607.1 (A)(1).

[mistoffolees]

You're using 'abuse' in a narrowly defined legal sense. There's nothing wrong with that. Just make sure that you cite where the definition you're using comes from and make sure that you have provided the facts (with evidence above your own testimony if at all possible) to back it up.