Back to Court

[dipper]

Hi,  though we went to court on April 7th and we agreed to small adjustments in the current order, nothing has been signed yet.   Our attorney took 2 weeks to forward it, and now they have had it for 3 weeks and will not respond at all.  The mother of the child says things are wrong with the order, but does not state what is wrong and her attorney simply does not repsond to our attorney's prompting. 
Sunday was Mother's Day and our time, but we did let the mother have the child from 10 - 6.  The maternal grandmother picked the child up at exchange in a small extended cab truck.   My husband questioned where the mother was as she has not been at last 3 exchanges.  Only time she has missed before is when in hospital and we are to have child during those times.   The grandmother got very defensive, pointing out that the mother could not fit in the back of the truck and neither could the car seat.   
That evening, the mother did come to the exchange.  As we drove up, she looked ready to fight. The car seat was sitting on the back of the truck. She came over to our vehicle asking what is our issue with her mother picking up child.  Now, yes, we should have shut it down right there and said we would not discuss this during exchanges in front of child.  But, we didn't.  I told her we had no issue and do not care if the mother ever comes back for another exchange. She and her mom insisted we did have a problem.  I got out and went around to tell my husband to put the baby in the car seat in our van.  Her mother asked that I look at their truck and she showed me that the airbag had been disengaged. I told her that I still did not like child being in the front, but I did see that the airbag was not an issue.
The fussing really escalated as my 22 year old daughter was with us and the 21 year old mother of child really went after her - my daughter was in the van and  the mother stood outside clapping her hands at her and telling her to shut up....etc....my daughter finally stepped out of the van, but stayed in the door.  The grandmother then ran between them telling my daughter she was not getting in her daughter's face which of course prompted me to get in HER face.   No one ever touched anyone else....though the mother was taunting me asking me what I was going to do about it.
I chose to wait and see if we heard anything from attorneys.  Today, I called to see if any contact had been made about court order.  The assistant told me no, but the attorney received a text message from opposing counsel stating something about having to involve the police.   When he replied to her to find out what was going on , she again would never respond to him.   I told the assistant everything and she said we are looking at going back to court.   She said the other attorney is being very unprofessional in refusing to answer at all.   
My daughter did catch the exchange on her phone video though it is not the best quality.  It does show the mother clearly comes over to us...and it shows that no one was innocent in this matter. 
Also, the mother is in violation of either court order as the old one and the one we agreed to (but is not signed) both state she has to provide new contact information.  They have moved and have not provided us with any information.
I am worried we are going to receive a summons or some attempt at a restraining order just to use against us.

[ocean]

As you answered yourself, you need to just bring 2 people in car with you, one to drive and the other to tape exchanges, openly so everyone behaves. Do not speak no matter what, just say, we are here to get xx only and not discuss court issues. Ignore and repeat. One person talks.

You can:
Change pick up location at police parking lot or have it written clearly that a notebook will be used for communications during visits and concerns and no verbal communication will be made at exchanges by either parent/grandparent.

Look up the laws in your state about children in front seat. My state, no child is allowed in front seat no matter what.

Yeah, looks like you will be back in court to get a final order. Maybe your lawyer can call her lawyer and leave a message that if they do not make contact by Friday then she will file with judge for final orders to be implemented. Make sure your lawyer has a fresh copy without crossouts to give to judge to make the final order. Judge may just sign off on your lawyers papers.

[dipper]

Thank you ocean.   When going back to court, could an entire new hearing be granted since the agreement made is already being disputed without being signed?


I had not thought of the notebook but that is a very good idea.  I understand about the two people as well...we typically have 3 and sometimes 4.  Most of the time only 1 person gets out though.  We have never went over to their vehicle to engage in talk....it is the mother that often comes over to our vehicle even when our person has already gotten the baby and talks.

[MixedBag]

Oh boy.....STAY CALM ABOVE ALL THINGS.

As for the front seat thing.....I tend to disagree....in a single cab pick up truck, HOW would that be possible.

What's the real bottom line thing you want to accomplish?

Personally -- I think they are pushing your buttons and you theirs.

Are you gonna follow the new potential order or the old one?

New means the other grandma has just as many rights as you, dad, mom....the child now has 4 parents -- and what's important is the EXCHANGE.

And if the other passengers can't totally stay out of it and just film....they don't need to come, drop them off around the corner.

[dipper]

The truck is extended cab - it does have a very small back seat.  I thought it was illegal for children to be in the front seat in VA.  However, come to find out....that is misleading.  They say they have to be in the back seat, but in reality, it is legal to have them in the front seat if the airbag is off.


Bottom line - we want something signed.  If they are in disagreement with the way it is written, they need to state what is wrong about it. However, I have looked it over and over and it is what we agreed to in court and I am not willing to go with anything different.   They want to pick and choose what parts of the agreement they will still honor.


We have never brought up anything during an exchange.  More than saying hello or the child slept well.


The child has five parents now.   Three on our side, two on their's.  I feel we should follow the old order as it is the only one that has a judge's signature on it and to me, that seems to be the enforceable document. 

[ocean]

You lawyer should be asking for judge to sign off on paperwork as other side has not responded to your requests. Up to judge to sign it or have you all come back in for a hearing on what the issues are. Should not be a whole new hearing already since it was just at trial.

I just looked at my state to see exact wording on seat belts. States Child under 12 SHOULD be in back seat. So guess not mandatory. Interesting.... but of course if you are back to court might as well add, child will be in back seat whenever in a vehicle with a backseat.

[dipper]

Thank you Ocean.  I am going to relay to the attorney that where we stand is to send the order once more to her attorney with the statement that if there is not a response within X amount of days, he will be taking this to the judge as is.   Second time the mother has agreed to stuff and then fought it after the fact.   
Honestly, I wish I had not agreed to giving them an extra day, but I did and have been willing to stand by it.  If given the chance though - them arguing the agreement, I will fight that.

[Davy]

 
I'm thinking that if the mother is not in compliance with the current standing court order AND/OR using the innocent child to provoke, intimidate and harass the other parent attempting to redefine the other parent then they should pay for any relitigation as well as supervised during visitation periods. 

Let her know she is not above the law and that you and the child do not exist to promote her self serving ego.

Also, I would document the attorney's defiant communication but would not give IT with any behavior parameters.  I would also check the court's file folder for your case before the next hearing to determine if there are any motions, addidavits, etc for the court to address that you have not been given notice.

[dipper]

Davy, I am frustrated with the entire process.  Our attorney's office is not the best to communicate with.  I informed them last week that what we had decided was for the order to be sent again with a request for a response and for  it to be stated that if a response was not received by 05/20/15 that it would be placed back on the docket with a request that the judge sign off on it.  I also stated that a show cause may be filed as we had not received a new physical address for the child when she is with the mother.  I also stated that I would not follow the new agreement as it has not been signed by an judge and is not enforceable (I don't see how it can be).


We have heard nothing back from my attorney.  The mother did call me Saturday and told me she was going to give me the address and then acted like she was getting off the phone - so I was like, "I have a pen and paper so you can give me that address."  She did give it to me over the phone at that time, claiming she had already provided it to our son. I asked him and she definitely had not though he had texted her twice asking for the address. 


I am at the point where I feel going one of two ways:   
1 - just forget it, tell the mother we will not allow her to have the child that extra day we had agreed to since they are being uncooperative and there is not standing court order for that to take place.  If she does not return child according to previous order, we will file a show cause.
2 - look into filing something myself through the court as I am tired of dealing with the attorneys period.


Thank you Davy - this child is innocent and the mother has threatened to twist the child's perception of her father by telling her lies.  She put that in writing!

[ocean]

Just be careful about pulling what is in new order. Whenever we went to court, the judge would say "this is the new order starting today and you will get the order in the mail". You will go before same judge. Maybe in a phone call you can tell her calmly that if your lawyer does not get signed order by xx then you are reverting back to the new order starting on xx and filing with the courts and asking for them to pay your lawyer fees as they have not cooperated with the judges order. This way it is not in writing and see if that does anything?

You can file yourself at the intake unit at the court house (sometimes in a different building). Sometimes they are very helpful and can steer you in right direction. Or ask the paralegal what they would file and then do it yourself. But like Davy said, have your lawyer file and ask for your lawyer fees as other side did not cooperate with the order.

Maybe at next exchange , start that communication notebook and give them a copy of your new order and ask them to sign or make changes so you can see what the hold up is. 

[dipper]

Thank you Ocean.  In our case, our attorney told the judge what the changes to the original order were and the judge made notes on the original order.  Then he told my attorney to type up the order, send it to her attorney and then forward to him for his signature.   I am just frustrated that they refuse to respond at all but want to follow anything that gave them extra. 


I do not want to get in trouble at all, but that one day we gave up really is huge to us.  If they don't want to be cooperative and actually get this as a signed order, seems it is not as important to them.  They are stalling for a reason.  As of tomorrow, it will be one month they have had the order and no response at all to our attorney.


I am definitely going to follow your advice! 

[MixedBag]

Ocean....if dipper has an attorney to represent them, they can't just go in and file themselves and do anything themselves.

they have to "fire" that attorney and then it can be done that way.

So I respectfully disagree with that piece.

Dipper -- which order is more advantageous to your situation -- new or old?

What does the new order do for Dad?

What does the new order do for Mom?

That's how you play it -- you figure out what Mom wants in the new order and tell her "She can't have it" until it's signed IN an order. 

[ocean]

Yeah, I thought dipper understood that part but yes, you would need to fire your lawyer for now and can rehire in the future if needed. Some lawyers play that game to save people money and allow the person to do a lot on their own to save money.

[dipper]

Thank you both for clarifying that.  I did understand that he would not be representing me, but I had not really thought of it as firing him.   


The old order is actually more to our advantage.  We gave a little to reach an agreement without a big battle.   In the original order, child has the three of us versus the mother.   All hospitalization is spent with us.   


New order will contain three of us versus the mother and maternal grandmother.  It does allow for two days to the maternal grandmother to take child to hospital (which we had allowed anyway).  We also allowed one extra day per month with the mother as a make-up time for time missed with hospitalizations.  Didn't like it, but in February we had child 19 out of 28 days so it seemed reasonable.   All of this I felt they could realistically get from the judge anyway.  If the mother actually does her treatments, she does not have to go to the hospital as much...and sure enough, she is taking better care of her health which means she gets an extra day and we are not getting extra time for hospitalizations.  But, that is subject to change at any time.


The one thing I am worried about in filing myself concerning this order is - I will not have proof of how often my attorney has tried to contact her attorney to get this resolved.   I am actually thinking of telling her that I will take it back to court and be seeking reimbursement for my lawyer fees for this part. 

[MixedBag]

so strategically -- it's in Mom's better interest to get the new order signed.

I agree that IF this needs to go back to court to get an order, then mom needs to pay for those fees and that you should ask for them.

But again, strategically -- the new order makes minor changes in mom's favor.

Honestly, I think if I understand this all correctly, I'd sit tight and hang loose and follow the old order.

What was the reason for filing in the first place?  Did dad get anything "changed" that HE (and you two) wanted?

What is mom doing that's against the potential new order?

OR is the bottom line that you want the new order signed because Mom may want to go back AGAIN for more time?

Ocean you have a PM....in a second.

[Davy]

OK I think I'm beginning to understand this thread.

Dipper is the itsey bitsey spider.  "The itsey bitsey spider went up the waterspout.  Down came the rain and washed the spider out.  Out came the sun and dried up all the rain.  The itsey bitsey spider went up the spout again !!!".

I surmise that Dipper and family are trying desperately to negotiate "agreements" with an opposer(s) under the auspicies of "joint custody" because that is what "joint" demands and is a way to keep this father in the child's life at this time and forever.  The emphasis being it is best for the child that this happens.

Of course we are not familiar with the practices and policies of the system Dipper is operating in but I have always understood that a licensed attorney is an "officer of the court" and therefor requires a motion to the court for approval / disapproval  to dismiss from a case.  Reseach your state statues accordingly and try to to use the same generalized verbage in a written or oral motion.  Some prose' advocates would retain someone from the "Young Attorneys association" to blend into the court room then stand to announce representation replacement with a secret motion (ie wetting your lips, wiggling your ears or nostrils).  Try to exclude the large middle finger in any gesture since it has universally accepted connotations.   

Also, you may determine it appropriate to submit a hand written "order" (basically prepared in advance ) to the court for signature in real time after prevailing on your "Motion to Quash" the current order. I suspect a "pleading" for attorney fees (current or new) would be best obtained at a subsequent hearing from the matters at hand.

Just a note.  I (and others) would carry along Supreme Ct rulings governing self representation just in case a judge or officer of the court got testy.

Hope this helps.  And Dipper thanks for helping others over many years.  Best to your family. 

[dipper]

Okay, yesterday was an emotional day.   I decided to call the court and ask if we could get a copy of the judge's notes.  As our attorney had explained to him the changes in the original order, the judge had scribbled notes on it, so I thought this may help.  The clerk did not tell me if I could get that or not, but she told me that early last week an attorney involved in the case stating that there had been a problem with an exchange; things were not working out and the order had not even been signed yet and wanted it back on the docket.  This could only have been her attorney.  The clerk had not put it on the docket as no formal request was received as to a date and no paperwork has been received at all.  The clerk noted "we still have not received any type of agreement from that court date."


I called my attorney's office - of course he was not in, but the assistant did not know anything about it.  I waited and then I called the mother and calmly stated that I had heard they were taking the matter back to court and were not in agreement with what had been decided.....since they were not in agreement and nothing had been signed by a judge, we would no longer honor that agreement from April (as stated in court). This would mean that during her full week, child would be returned on Saturday and not Sunday.  The mother affirmed they were going back to court and just said okay to the rest.


Well, 30 minutes later I got a call from our attorney's office.  The assistant said he had called in and stated that he got the order earlier this week SIGNED by the other side.  I don't know if he had opened it, or this is what her attorney told him.  He actually spoke with her yesterday and she said they had considered going back to court and then changed their minds, and signed the order.  They say their is one 'small' change. 


We do not know what this change is or if we will be in agreement.  We go Tuesday.  So even though we have been very concerned with it all.....our attorney just had not had time to call us or tell his assistant to let us know it had been received.


This morning, my sons took the child to the exchange.  The mother called and asked son if we were bringing child back because I had said we would not bring her until Sunday.  Totally false.....I have no idea how she came up with that one. 


I am disgusted with attorneys period....