extracurricular activities & visitation....

[BehindBlueEyes]

A little background....I have physical custody of my 8 yo daughter.  She has EOW, fall & spring break, and all but 1 week w/ her father who lives 3 hours away (we meet halfway for drop off/pick up).  

At the final hearing last year his lawyer addressed the issue of extracurricular activities because at the time our daughter was playing basketball & said that it wouldn't be good to sign her up for things just to interfere w/ visitation; but that as she got older she would have her own agenda on what she wanted to do & that we had to go with what she wanted.  Which, is only fair to her.  

Well, she came to me wanting to play soccer.  There is a city wide league in the spring & fall.  They play 7 games over an 8 week period (skipping spring break week).  So, I signed her up.  I notified her dad before hand that I was signing her up at her request and that some of the games would be on his weekends.  He never said he objected.  I then gave him the schedule after I received it & again he never objected.  Well, this weekend turned out to be the first game on his weekend.  She's already had 2 games that both fell on my weekends because of skipping spring break weekend.

Anyway, her dad called Thursday evening to let me know his wife would be picking our daughter up on Friday at the usual time.  I said that our daughter had a game & he said she could miss it.  I told him no she couldn't because she made a commitment to the team to play & I told her in the beginning if she didn't play all games she couldn't play at all because of it not being fair to the rest of the team.  Of course that just turned into me threatening her in his eyes.  But, there was a girl out on the team today & it made it so much harder on the other girls because they couldn't take as many breaks.  And it made our daughter realize how important it is to be at every game for the team's sake.

But, ultimately she told her dad she wanted to play.  How do you deal with this?  I don't sign her up to play any sports or do anything else unless she comes to me and asks to participate.  I also explain to her before she signs up that this will cost her time w/ her dad on his weekends.  Both for basketball & soccer she knew this & still wanted to play.  

She's already expressed interest in wanting to play soccer again in the fall league.  So, I know there's going to be issues again then as well.  If she wants to play a sport or get involved in something while she's at his house in the summer I wouldn't expect her to miss every other event for my weekends.  I would just pick her up late.  And it's not like her dad is missing the whole weekend.  I dropped her off as soon as the game was over.  

And that's a whole other issue in itself!  He wanted me to drive further than half way since he didn't have her the whole weekend.  Eventually I said I would but that I would be an hour later getting there because of driving time so he'd be losing another hour because I was doing good to get to the normal meeting spot by the time I told him I would.  

We left from the game right after it was over & went straight to the meeting spot.  For me to have drove the extra distance would have meant another hour driving.  He reluctantly agreed to meeting at the regular spot when I told him I'd be an hour later getting there & he'd just be losing another hour of time with her.  I did ask him if he wanted to meet an hour later on Sunday to drop her off to give him an extra bit of time.  I know it's not much; but it's better than nothing.  His reply..."Whatever."  

He doesn't come to any of the games.  He only came to like 2 or 3 basketball games.  I realize it's a long drive; but it would also mean a lot to our daughter if he was there.  

Sometimes I feel like it's a no-win situation no matter what.  And I know he probably wouldn't get anywhere in court with it.  The soccer games are only going to interfere w/ 3 of his weekends.  And it just cuts them short...not takes them away completely.  And in another 5 weeks it will be time for her to go to his house for the summer.  

She'll be there until the week before school starts.  I just feel like I'm the bad guy because I'm letting her participate in what she wants to do.  If she hadn't come to me and asked to play I wouldn't have signed her up.  Anyone have any advice?  I'm not trying to take his time from him.  I would never do that.  He just doesn't see it that way.  

[nosonew]

I went thru this with my ds, his dad was 3 hours away, and we met half way too. My son is very active in sports, is now 15, makes his own schedule with dad, which is more time with dad actually, (we get along great), but in the earlier years, he too wanted to play soccer, baseball, etc.  He did the guilt trips to me and son, but eventually figured out that his son wanted this sooo bad.  I gave extra time, any weekend there wasn't a game, he went, every spring break instead of every-other, additional time in summer (it was split in half), extra time at holidays, etc., to try to help make up for time missed.  

Perhaps you can try the same thing.  The important thing is this: He needs both parents involved in his life, and he also needs to grow socially, academically, and physically.  Sports is just something that is a normal part of most kids' lives, and if you take the initiative to show dad you aren't trying to interfere with his time, by allowing extra time throughout the year, he will see that.  Just make sure you follow thru on what you say, and he can meet you half way, having you drive farther just takes more time away from him.  Doesn't make sense to me.  Good luck!

[BehindBlueEyes]

I do try to make up any time when at all possible. But, until soccer is over it's going to be hard because there is a game every weekend.  I did make it up during basketball if there wasn't a game on my weekend we would just switch weekends.  I just hope eventually he does see that this is something our daughter wants to do and not something I'm having her do to just keep her from him.  I wouldn't do that.  I know she loves him dearly.  It's just so frustrating at times, ya know?

[gipsy]

Look for solutions . not the problems , I here in your post ,worry about how hard it is for the other teamates when a member is missing etc , I would say the same consideration for missing members of the family are more important then soccer , But I also understand kids , Ands their desire to play sports ,I also Hear That you are  both arguing the point by hours of driving time , I also know what reality is , And I know why there are court orders , I have all the similar problems , I am the Dad And I have visits and the Mother always finds the difficulties in every visit , I also have a large enough family and circle of friends to know that when you are the custodial parent , you don't spend all the free time with the kids , You have work and bills and a life also ,SOO My point is , Give a little to get a little , I hate to be in  the position you are talking about when it comes up , SO I go by the parenting plan line by line and mom knows it , The reason I don't give is because she doesn't , All though My son wants to be with me more she won't budge , the way I see it ,the custodial parent has the MOST flexible time to spare , And except for My CHERISHED COURT ORDERED TIME  I have zero control over how much time I get , So I take what I paid an atty to get for Me ,AND NO LESS!!!  SO My two cents is give him and extra weekend , Be nice once and say hey . I'll give you extra time no sweat , This is cutting off some of your time and I'll make it a better deal , So pick a week end or special event and you got it ! If you give a little , I feel because if it happened for me , I would think hey Mom is starting to get on with it and being cool , I don't have to stress so much about my CHERISHED TIME  !!!!!, And I would be willing to negotiate ,better yet Tell him , You come here and get the child and take her to the game and I'll go all the way there and pick up ! then You can be part of this childs game and fun and see her play , Maybe she would like her dad to see her in the game , I have a great atty , that constantly tells me Make all these stupid things into good things , Its hard to change My thinking , Honestly, but when I take his advice it;s better ,  . A known fact is that us non custodial parents alway's  worry about our time with the kids , ,, Those that love our kids , , Let Me tell You the worst side of the coin , The worst effect I see on the kids I know ,Is My step daughter , Her Dad And one other person I know , Has the non custodial that does not show up , Ya want to see your kid cry , It happens every time , Its a terrible thing that I see with My step daughter , She is Hurt angry indignant rebelious and , It is known through Me, My wife and the counselor that she takes her anger out on Me , with a rebelion , that Is a big part of My  Wife and I are divorcing , Trust Me kids want there other parent , It is far more important than , Arguing driving time, or giving up an extra weekend ,  You mentioned three more weekends , sooo , Give one of yours up to dad and say its a peace offering , you can actually get extra time , I garuntee I want every minute I get with My son and I am always sad when he goes home , I love to here the pitter patter of his feet as much as any mother does , the best thing you can do is try to  get a happy kid out of this and forget about dislike for the other parent ,
 My poor little son gets stressed when I have difficulties with the mother , Ands he is asked to make choices , so I have to go By the parenting plan and Not deviate , No negotiations work with the Mom ,You are Asking for help on the net , that means You are not so stuck on stupid that You refuse to consider options , I believe you are considering better options thats why You are asking ,

[nosonew]

I hear ya gypsy.  Although my situation with ex is different than anyone on this board since we get along, my dh's son's mother is like most bm's we hear about on this board.  

She actually coached little league soccer one year, and didn't hold one practice that wasn't on our weeknight visit!  She signed up for coach just to interfere with dad's time, not because she wanted to be moty (mother of the year).  

I think each persons situation is different and unique to their situation, and as both a bm and sm, I am proud of the way my ex and I have worked things out. Have never ever gone to court for anything, and both do nothing except what is truly in our son's best interest, and thus, he is a very well adjusted child.  

I agree, when there are difficulties, you have no choice but to go by the parenting plan in place, too bad your ex won't negotiate and allow extra time so the kid(s) can participate in activities they wish to.  Kids aren't possessions, they have hearts and souls and dreams.  Good luck!

[BehindBlueEyes]

I would gladly give him an extra weekend here or there to make up the time.  I did it in basketball.  But, until soccer is over that's not possible.  There's a game every weekend between now & May 22.  And the next weekend starts summer break after that which means she's with him 2 mos straight.  Except for the every other weekend she'll be with me during that time.  And if she gets involved in sports down there during the summer I wouldn't expect him to make her not go on my weekends just so that she can come here.  I would just pick her up after the event...even try to go to the event if I'm able.  I know that my being there would mean the world to her.  But, I do understand his point that it does take away from what little time he has.  If it weren't for her asking to play this wouldn't be an issue.  But it was a choice she made to participate.  He doesn't see that tho.  I just want to find the fine line there of everyone being happy.  Is that at all possible?  

[gipsy]

sometimes Some people will never be happy , The thing I can only hope a CP could understand Is , As An NCP We want our time ,I would hate to miss ANY time with My son, And two weeks, too Me is a long time , So Missing one visit would mean Four weeks , I already said why Don't you tell the ex to take her too the game thats part of parenting , I know when this type of thing comes up it won't be a question , I have gone to His school events when , Mom And her boy friend are there ,I don't care . I show up !!   I see the problem, Kids like sports . Can You even have a civil conversation with the dad , If You can you are better off then I am, the Mom won't cooperate ! Hopefully You can just talk , Maybe a letter ,My case is very different , I pretty much just go By the plan And there is no other questions , Thats the way It is , I don't have 2 months in the summer , I would be happyer with that , Sometimes we just have to accept that  people CAN"T negotiate , But try Giving a little To get a little , Isn't there a day off from school or something That You could give up?

[mango]

It hurts to think that an activity could be more important than seeing the parent. Especially when your the parent that sees them less.

I think some make-up time can be added to the mix. If the mother gets some weekends in the summer, then cough up those weekends as a trade off. As long as it evens out. Sounds like you both are willing to work it out. He might say whatever, at first but I bet he be willing to take one your those summer weekends.

I am a Step mom  my DH's ex is constantly trying to interefere in our parenting time. She enrolled my SD in a year round swim club, that practices everyday, and has out of town meets on all the weekends. The father (my husband) has 3 out 4 weekends per month, plus a full week. Which would mean her would be required to do the travel for the meets. Furthermore he has his own family who would prefer not to spend every single weekend in a hotel and swimming pool in a foreign town. The whole family pays the price for what? an activity?

It means the other kids do not get to do camping, and snow skiing, or family picnics, none of the things we noramlly do. We are bound and tied to go to out of town swim meets.

I think the value of family and bonds go a lot further then a missed practice or an acitivity. If there is a way to work it in it should be. But not at the expense of other people having all their weekends spent at an activity year round.

Kids can also learn to give and take as they will need to do so in the long run.

Needless to say we are fighting this in court. First I do not feel the ex has a right to plan activites on teh fathers time. Especially all of his time.

[BehindBlueEyes]

If he wanted to come take her to the games; by all means I would let him.  But he doesn't want to make the 3 hr drive to come to them.  During basketball I gave him make up time on weekends she didn't have games.  We would just switch weekends.  I switched weekends to give him make up time when he didn't want her one weekend because he & his wife separated.  I'm not unreasonable about that.  Until soccer is over tho there's no weekends she doesn't have games.  And the last soccer game is the weekend before school lets out which means the next weekend starts his 2 mos of summer.  I think it makes me angry because I know he would have a fit if she got involved with something down there on the summer that interfered w/ my weekend & I told him that she shouldn't.  Ya know?  

[BehindBlueEyes]

DD called her dad tonight because she wanted to attend a party at her soccer coach's house after the game on Saturday.  I told her she had to clear it with her dad as it was his weekend and that if he said it was ok that I would just meet him after the party & that he could have her next weekend as well (after the soccer game).  

He asked her what she wanted to do & she told him go to the party.  Then he said something about going camping again & she wanted to do that.  So, I got on the phone at this point & told him that she wanted to go camping instead to just never mind the party.  It was her choice.  I wanted her to do what she wanted to do.  No biggie.

Then I told him that I would give him one of my weekends during the summer to make up for the missed time during the soccer games.  There are 3 weekends of his that were cut short because of games.  His reply?  "What good is it going to do then?"  (She'll be at his house during the week on summer & w/ me every other weekend.)  I couldn't believe it.  I really don't understand it.

The conversation just went downhill from there & I wound up just hanging up to save arguing with him over it.  I'm tempted to just keep her out of all extracurricular activities just so I don't have to deal with the issues w/ him.  I can't allow her to sign up for sports & not show up for half the games because they're on his weekends.  And if I try to compensate he doesn't appreciate it.  It seems like such a losing battle.

[treadiing water]

I don't think it helps your daughter to just cut off the extra-curricular activities all together.  What seems to be the issue is that you are not getting buy in from her Dad.  

Not to point any fingers or raise any hackels, but my opinion is that this issue (and any issues that might impinge on either parent's 'time') should have been thoroughly discussed by you, the dad, and your daughter.  In this case it seems that YOU made the decision to enroll her in the soccer league, which encroached on your ex's parenting time. That is almost guaranteed to cause a negative reaction .  Granted that your daughter wanted it and you informed your ex about it, but it was not discussed with the ex.  If instead both you and your daughter had approached the ex about this BEFORE she had been signed up, presented the case that daughter really wanted to do this, and maybe worked out some scheduling changes ahead of time (they might not have been necessary at that time as ex would have been fully aware of the facts and time requirements) things might have gone smoother.  At that point your ex would be making the decision about 'his' time and if you all agreed to it you would have a good arguement if he then later reneged.  Otherwise, you are committing his court ordered time and too me that is plain wrong.

[Ref]

Personally, I find it very annoying when DH ex makes decisions about how to raise SD or what she wants to do with DH's time, tells him, and expects him to work around her. Usually, if she talks to him about it first and sees what he thinks, he will usually abide by SD's wishes (within reason). If she tell him "how it's gunna be", he will more than likely feel like he is being pushed around and not be as flexible.

Another thing that really bothers me is when Ex promises SD an activity or an event that will interfere with DH's time prior to discussing it with DH, so it is HIS fault if she can't do the event.

To me, the most logical thing would be to find out vaguely what the child would like. Gather some options. Discuss it as parents. Then talk to the child about the decision.

JMHO

[BehindBlueEyes]

DD came to me & told me she wanted to play soccer.  Just like she came to me wanting to play basketball last winter.  I'm not going to enroll her in anything that she doesn't ask for.  I don't believe in pushing extra curricular activities on kids if they don't want them.  Her father new at least a month before I even signed her up that she wanted to play.  He never said no.  When I gave him a copy of the schedule he never said anything.  I told him when I gave him the schedule we would work out his weekends.  I'm not doing this to keep him from his time with her.  I did this because she wanted to play soccer.  And issues like this were addressed at the custody hearing.  His lawyer told him and I both that as she got older she would have her own agenda when it came to sports, clubs, etc and that we had to respect what SHE wanted to do.  I have no problem with her getting involved in sports where he lives when she's there with him during the summer.  I would do everything possible to accomodate her.  I wouldn't even ask him for make up time because I know she's only there 2 short months.  

[BehindBlueEyes]

I too also find it annoying that DH's ex doesn't consult him about extracurricular activities that mess up his weekends.  But we also know that these activities are things that his 2 DDs want to participate in & that they would be more upset with him if he didn't allow it.  

I've never put my DD into something w/out letting her dad know up front it was being done.  He just chooses to wait until 2 or 3 days before the event to cause a problem about it.  I've also never signed her up for anything under the intention to keep her away from her father.  Anything she has participated in she has come to me and asked me if she could participate.

I might be unfair by making it a rule that if she doesn't participate in every event (unless she's sick) then she doesn't participate at all.  I feel that she needs to learn the responsibility of a commitment if she chooses to participate in sports or whatever.  DH & I wouldn't expect his DDs to not participate just because it was our weekend.

[treadiing water]

Nobody is saying that you are INTENTIONALLY trying to disrupt his time.  But his time is being disrupted.  I acknowledge that you tried to address the issue of upset weekends.  What I don't think you realize is that at the point you handed him the schedule, you were basically dictating (you had the power) to him how things were going to be.

Answer me this.  Did you give your ex a copy of the schedule before or after you signed up your daughter?  

When your daughter expressed an interest in the soccer league and you told your ex about it did you say "Daughter would like to play soccer this year." or did you give him all the info "Daughter would like to play soccer.  I checked it out and there is a league that starts April 1 and has games every Saturday thru May 28."  Without all the information it is unreasonable to expect someone to express an opinion.  Just because the ex didn't say anything when you told him your daughter wanted to play soccer doesn't mean he agreed if he didn't have all the facts.  At that time he did not know if it would affect him either way.  

I completely understand that your daughter is beginning to have her own agenda.  That does not mean that she automatically gets to do everything she wants.  Other circumstances come into play.  I'm sure there has been sometime in the past when your daughter wanted to do something but it conflicted with your schedule (work, prior committment,etc...) and so she didn't get to do what she wanted.  I know it happens all the time with me.

What it comes down to for me is that a unilateral decision was made by you that affected the parenting time of your ex and he is resentful of that.  I think that is perfectly understandble.  He may be acting obstinate in this because he figures that you will learn a lesson and not do the same thing again.  Or he could just be an ass.  I have no way of knowing.  

There is probably no remedy for this now, but in the future I think this whole situation could be avoided with a little communication.  That may be asking a lot, but don;t you think your daughter is worth it? :)

[mango]

Well put! We are on the receiving end of this (similar) problem. We were the ones handed the schedule, and expected that the whole family drop everything to accomodate this with No discussion or agreement. Ours is year round.

It is tough, no doubt. But the time spent with dad, in the long run will be remembered far greater then the soccer field, swimming pool, etc.

Kids shouldn't always have their way either.

[BehindBlueEyes]

Yes, he knew before hand what the schedule would be & that it would in fact affect 3-4 of his weekends.  It only turned out to be 3 since they skipped easter weekend.  

And if I could communicate with him I would; but sometimes it's near impossible.  I went for 2 years during the custody battle catering to his needs to accomodate what he wanted....rearranging my schedule to suit him.  I'm not going to be a push-over anymore.  I'm not going to keep my daughter from him but I'm also not going to let him dictate my life anymore.  I'm not trying to be argumenatitive or say that what I'm doing is right.  But given the whole history of the situation I am not going to let him run my life anymore.  

Just like with child support.  He pays it when it's convient to him.  No matter if he pays me or not I still have to pay bills, child care, put food on the table, put clothes on her back, etc.  It's a real struggle to do all of that when he doesn't pay me but once every 2 or 3 months.  He's currently caught up now since I told him I was turning it over to the state to collect.  I have an appointment next week to get that taken care of.  It's not fair to me to have to struggle & use my credit cards just to have money to survive on when he's out making $1000+ a week & only has to pay $60 a week.

Unfortunately I had a lawyer he just wanted the case over with so I got screwed on a lot of issues.  I don't feel guilty at all about taking a stand on the issue of her getting to play 1 sport that she wanted to play.  Especially when I've done what I can to give him make up time.

[BehindBlueEyes]

I agree...kids shouldn't ALWAYS have their way.  And I'm on the receiving end of the scheduling w/ my sk's.  But, I don't do this year around with her.  This is only the 2nd sport she's participated in all school year.  I've kept her out of other things because I didn't want her to be busy with something all year long & it interfere w/ every weekend she's supposed to go to her dad's.  So, she had to choose what was most important to her to participate in.

If I went to her dad & told him I didn't want her to participate in anything that affected my weekends during the summer he would have an absolute cow.  And I don't expect her not to do something she wants to do just because it'll cut short some of my weekends.  I don't want her resenting me for not allowing her to spend time w/ her friends or participate in something.  She is still adjusting to her new school here and I want her to get out there & make friends.  

[richiejay]

How did it come about that you folks live 3 hours apart?

[Ref]

IMO, the primary custodial parent makes the decisions that effect their time and the secondard custodial parent makes the decisions about their time. If issues (like yours) overlap, then it must be agreed upon by both parties OR it reverts back to, during PCP's time they do their thing and SCP, they do theirs. This means that the lesson you are trying to teach your child that imposes on the father's time would be moot. He should not have to follow your rules on how to raise your child during his time. If it interrupts his parenting time, they he gets to say whether it flies.

Communication in these matters is often not easy. Look at this board on any day and you will see amazing examples of how stubborn people can be. The best way to handle these situations with little conflict, I find, is to lay down rules for when the child is in your house and allow ex to lay down his while at his. Your rule: you have to go to all the games when you are at my home BECAUSE I want you to learn responsibility to your teammates. His rule: I want you to miss some of your games BECAUSE I want you to learn responsibility to your family. Allow there to be conflicting lessons but explain why rules are different.

Also, you bring up how contolling he has been. Take the high road. Stop trying to be controlling back. If you are bitter about the child support (and it sounds like you should be) take him to court for it. Don't allow that to be an excuse to push back harder. Just take care of THAT issue.

I commend you for allowing flexibility in your schedule. That makes you the better person. However, it is his right not to be as flexible. It did sould like he was interested in allowing your daughter the choice to go to her party. Maybe that goes with my first point. When you bring it to him as a question instead of a demand, he will be more likely to be flexible rather than feel like he is fighting for his rights.

Sorry to sound so attacking. It really isn't my intention. It is just so hard to hear justifications for what I know causes DH so much anguish. Hopefully you will see some of this as a different perspetive and use it to make communicating with your ex a bit easier.

Good Luck

[BehindBlueEyes]

I don't take anything read here as an attack.  I come here to vent & to get opinions on how to handle situations!  :-)  

I am in the process of trying to get the child support issue addressed.  Hopefully something can be done!  He has no other children to support so there's no reason he can't pay more.  As it stands he's paying less than 10% now!   UGH!  

[tulip]

I read most of your posts. First, I'll say it is important for kids to be able to participate in activities. It's part of their growth, and as parents, I think it's our job to encourage and support that. My dh has been struggling the last few years to be allowed to keep bringing his kids to activities. Their bm doesn't want them in ANYTHING, because she is too lazy to bring them, and if dh brings them, she claims it interferes with "her time." The very big difference between our case and yours is that we live about 2 miles away from bm, and it is ALWAYS an option for her to bring the kids to activities on her time.

My sd plays soccer as well, but all her games are on weeknights, unless she is in a tournament, which is only twice during the summer. Obviously, this is your call, but I wouldn't want to sign any of our kids up for something that takes every weekend, because it affects all the other kids who aren't in that activity. Even though your ex is not part of YOUR family, he is HER family, and this activity affects him, and his family, if he has one. So it really is not fair for you to just tell him this is what his whole family has to deal with.

I understand the importance of teaching a child that being part of a team is a big commitment. You should also be teaching her that being part of a family is a commitment. Before you sign her up for an activity that affects the very small amount of time she has with her father, you should talk to her about how it's going to make her dad feel that she cares so little about her time with dad. She is not grown up, you are, and it's not her decision, it's yours, and Dad's.

Like I told you before, in our case, bm doesn't want the kids in anything that will take any effort from her. We have been going through big custody changes lately, so this isn't going to be such an issue for us. But in the past, we have had to tell the kids that when they sign up for stuff, they have to understand that their mom has every right to not let them go on her time, and we have had to talk to activity coordinators up-front about the possibility that they might not make it to every practice or every game because of the custody situation. Their have been times that we have to say no to activities because it would not be worth it to pay the money for it if mom decides to screw them over.

It sounds like you and your ex have a lot of bitterness towards each other. As hard as it is, you need to get over that. And you also need to get over the idea that you should just let her do something because she wants to. Kids don't get to do everything they want to, and that's a fact of life that needs to be learned by every child. Maybe the reason your ex didn't say anything at first is that it made him feel bad. If he demands his time with his daughter, he's going to be the bad guy in the eyes of someone he needs love from.

Next time, she wants to sign up for something that affects Dad's time, you should talk to her first about how it's going to make Dad feel that he missing out on something very precious to him, and together you should acknowledge your concern about that, and offer a compromise up front.