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Author Topic: Q about Show Cause and visitation  (Read 2810 times)

durandal

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Q about Show Cause and visitation
« on: Mar 12, 2007, 03:24:15 PM »
Hello.

NCP here. All reside in VA.

Have a Order of Visitation (temporary) pending a continued case. Seeking full-custody.

Week two of the court order, CP violated order (no show) for visitation. Claimed child had a fever, but not a medical emergency. Days' prior had suggested in various ways that she would not be at visitation - have CP admissions and documentation. Challenged the Judge both in court by protesting any visitation, and later outside of court, by documented admissions. Basically just manipulated the situation so she could get away with denying visitation.

My problem is - I've retained a laywer have not fully paid the retainer fee... so am not really represented yet. Will have this paid in a few weeks. Can I issue a Show Cause order on my own or does my atty. need to do this?

Does the fact that the Show Cause is a few weeks old diminish the seriousness of the violation in the eyes of the courts?

I've bothered Soc enough, just looking for opinions from you folks.

Thanks.



notnew

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RE: Q about Show Cause and visitation
« Reply #1 on: Mar 13, 2007, 04:36:27 AM »

I see you havent' heard the news. Soc is no longer here my friend. Read the top post on his forum, it will explain it all.

If your attorney has not entered his appearance yet, you can still file on your own behalf.

I'd file so the court is aware of the violations asap. Her actions will only lead to continued denials and her continued protests in the court could be taken seriously.

You should be exchanging the child in a public place like a police station to avoid ANY problems.

You have your documentation, use it.

JMHO - not a lawyer just been there and learned that waiting thinking you need "enough" evidence can bite you in the rear.




MixedBag

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RE: Q about Show Cause and visitation
« Reply #2 on: Mar 13, 2007, 05:23:18 AM »
I am not an attorney.

And yes, Soc is not here.

However, I think NO you can not do a "Motion to Show Cause" because you have a temporary order, not a permanent order.

I suggest that you search that page though because surely someone else has had this question before.

"Does the fact that the Show Cause is a few weeks old diminish the seriousness of the violation in the eyes of the courts?"

Yes,and no.  Over time, whatever is in place becomes a pattern.  So IMHO, if the child misses one weekend with you and gets the rest of the time like the CHILD is supposed to, then yes, missing that one weekend and the importance of it will be diminished.  However, if this is just the first incident that becomes a string of many......nope.

You say you have PROOF or documentation....and I say be careful about pinning all your hopes on this "documentation".  Again, from reading Soc's answers to folks over the years, many folks feel like they have good documentation, but getting that admitted into a court room as evidence to meet the standards of contempt is a whole 'nother ball game.

I'm gonna bet that your temporary order is vague -- very very vague.  And it's extremely difficult to get a contempt order against even a permanent order that's vague.  Again, go to Soc's page and search on "elements of contempt" -- because you gotta meet all three of those elements.  And with a vague order, the third one is difficult to meet.

BTW -- her verbal words are worthless as documentation unless you have it video taped, or recorded.  And even then getting a transcript of the recording IN as evidence is difficult in many courtrooms.

Let's take a look at your example, she says the child had a fever when you were supposed to pick the child up.  She will say that she was looking out in the best interest of the child by keeping them in bed to recover.  You will say "I could have done that too."  BUT in the mean time, a judge might think that it was not in the best interest of the child to get up, get dressed, go out to the car, and then do it all backwards.  

I'm on the child's side....spend time with both parents.  

And flip flop your thinking....and words.  You are working to get your child time with both parents, not that you are a parent getting time with your child.....get the idea???

notnew

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RE: Q about Show Cause and visitation
« Reply #3 on: Mar 13, 2007, 05:38:48 AM »
Mixed,

I agree with you on this, but I thought I remembered other posts from this person and there has been a pattern being established here where mom doesn't want child to go with dad at all.

I may be wrong.

I seem to remember the child being pretty young. There could be a multitude of reasons why a child would run a fever (teething for example).

Unfortunately it is a double edged sword and a judgement call on his part entirely. It could be viewed the way you depict or maybe not, depending on the strength of his evidence and how the judge feels that day.

I also agree that vague orders are never good. The more specific the less controversy. That is why hostile parents usually don't like those types of orders.

And yes, it is always about what is in the best interest of the child.

mistoffolees

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RE: Q about Show Cause and visitation
« Reply #4 on: Mar 13, 2007, 06:00:44 AM »
I think I'd just find a way to get the attorney involved now rather than later. This sounds like it's going to be a contentious battle, so don't go into it unarmed.


escape2paradise

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RE: Q about Show Cause and visitation
« Reply #5 on: Mar 14, 2007, 10:26:13 AM »
Not an attornedy here either.  I had the reverse situation a couple of weeks ago.  NCP refused to return child to me after visit ended on a Sunday evening.  I have an attorney and we filed for an ex parte hearing and went to court the next day (Monday).  We filed for contempt at the same time and had a show cause hearing scheduled for a later date.  We only have a temporary order and were able to file the contempt/show cause anyway.    

durandal

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RE: Q about Show Cause and visitation
« Reply #6 on: Mar 14, 2007, 03:53:59 PM »
Hello all,

Thanks for the help. I will try to clarify some points so you can all have a better informed opinion:

>You should be exchanging the child in a public place like a police >station to avoid ANY problems.

A) We exchange at a police precinct as it is stipulated in the temp. visitation agreement.

>However, I think NO you can not do a "Motion to Show Cause" >because you have a temporary order, not a permanent order.

A) I'm certain of my right to issue a Show Cause - I spoke to a magistrate about this.

>You say you have PROOF or documentation...

A) Documentation is both recorded voicemail messages from CP and from two-way conversations taped w/ verified consent. Time and dates are also recorded, cross-referenced w/ phone company records. My recordings span more than the entire time the child has been born, since the CP started her manipulations before birth. Most contain admissions of the following;

threats to leave the state with the child;
threats to give the child to social services;
opinions that I don't care/provide for the child;
verbal derogatory statements about the bench
and verbal threats to disobey court orders...

>I'm gonna bet that your temporary order is vague...

A) Not so vague. Visits are at a specific time of the week, place of transfer and for a very specific duration. CP has already given the bench reason to 'pay attention' by unusual, unfounded requests for supervision and reluctance to agree to basic, temporary visitation at the initial pleading. Order was violated second week of visitation.

>getting a transcript of the recording IN as evidence is difficult in many >courtrooms.

A) Agreed. But I'm having full transcripts, indexed, done by mom, who is a retired a court recorder and a notary for juvenile court in a different jurisdiction. It is much easier, from what I've researched, to get both my future atty. and judges to pay attention to written words BACKED UP by actual recordings.

>She will say that she was looking out in the best interest of the child by >keeping them in bed to recover.

A) Yes, she will say this. BUT CP will then have to explain why she was calling middle of the night claiming 'emergency', was capable of taking the child to the ER, yet refused. When questioned, she changed her tune and said that the cost of the visit outweighed the severity. CP will also need to explain why she had, a few days prior, said that she may "be late" for the transfer, and also on another message claimed that if I didn't return her calls on demand that she would not be at the transfer. CP might need to explain why only a few hours after the appointed time the child suddenly was feeling better. CP might also need to explain to the bench why she admitted 'not caring' what the order said. All recorded with consent.

>I agree with you on this, but I thought I remembered other posts from >this person and there has been a pattern being established here where >mom doesn't want child to go with dad at all.

A) Total of eight hours away from the CP's home w/ child in 10 months on two seperate occasions, both court ordered - yet BM wouldn't mind one bit if I moved into the home tomorrow... I'd say that's putting it rather mildly.

>There could be a multitude of reasons why a child would run a fever
>(teething for example).

A) That was the 'emergency'... I hope you're just psychic...

>I think I'd just find a way to get the attorney involved now rather than >later. This sounds like it's going to be a contentious battle, so don't go >into it unarmed.

A) I understand that, and I'm making great progress. I'm not as financially crippled as I was just two months ago, and I've interviewed and about to retain a great atty.

Its a pity that we cannot cooperate for the sake of our child. I really have tried time and time again, with the same result. This is what I face - someone who ostensibly will try to appear cooperative, but who is really hell bent and will stop at almost nothing to destroy my relationship with the only child I've ever had. She's just waiting for any misstep.

I'm not a military person (much respect), but I 'feel' like I'm in a war nonetheless, being hunted, everywhere, with no quarter, relentlessly with the sole objectives of breaking my spirit or taking my 'hypothetical' life.


MixedBag

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RE: Q about Show Cause and visitation
« Reply #7 on: Mar 15, 2007, 05:33:36 AM »
One other person responded above that even though they had temp orders, they got an order to show cause heard.  

Each state is gonna be different.

Some clerks' offices also have blank forms that are available for you to use, have you checked that out?  Until you get your attorney paid.

Who represented you for the temp hearing?

Anyways, you said:

Most contain admissions of the following;

threats to leave the state with the child;
threats to give the child to social services;
opinions that I don't care/provide for the child;
verbal derogatory statements about the bench
and verbal threats to disobey court orders...

I just say be careful about picking and choosing your battles.  YOU know parent the best and whether any of the above will ever come true....so you know if you really need to act when she says she's gonna leave the state.

Many parents blew smoke and just wanna pi$$ you off.  Let her give the child to social services, then you go get the child and file an emergency exparte motion to be the primary parent.  

 

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