''The List'' by Tom now permanently archived

[SPARC Admin]

''The List'' by Tom is now permanently archived at this location:

http://www.deltabravo.net/custody/thelist.htm

Our thanks to 'Tom' for compiling such a great article and for allowing its use here at SPARC.

[kittencaboodle]

My apologies to the admin, but I read "The List" and immediately searched out some way to post a response.  

I realize this may not be the best place to post this, but I have to respond.  

I am 25, a college-educated step-mother to 4 children under the age of 10.  I am married to a man who has, as many of us do, a very bitter ex-wife.  She is not pleased with his re-marriage.  We are preparing for court, and because the child support has drained our resources dry, I am handling all the documents and documentation.  

I am also a "child of divorce".  My mother married my step-father when I was 8.  She had my half-sister when I was 9.  When I was 20, my step-father filed for divorce.  I remember that day well because it was the same day my cat died, the same day I moved back into college for the beginning of my junior year.  It was also about 2 months after my 32 year old aunt died of cancer.  

Why is any of that important?  

I would say the man chose his timing particularly well.  My family was at a weak point.  My step-father followed that list to near exactitude.  We did nothing but suffer at his whims.  He enjoyed his game of cat and mouse.  My mother had been a stay at home parent to myself and my sister for 5 years.  He drained the household account by simply not depositing his pay check for 3 months.  When I got to college, the student job I had lined up to help defer tuition and books became a low paying way to make sure my family was fed.  Why did my step-father do this?  Not for my sister and I, obviously.  He did it because he and my mother co-owned a business.  There was the REAL child he was concerned about.  

I read "The List" and feel alternately sick and horror struck as I relive the anguish of 4 years of court abuse by my step-father.  And what did he gain out of it?  Not family.  Not friends.  Not love.  Not compassion.  A business.  

The reason I am posting this is because my step-father is a prime example of what no parent should turn into.  If you love your children, PUT THEM FIRST.  Think about how your actions are going to affect their lives.  

If you are attempting to follow the list simply to ensure that you don't have to pay child support, I urge you to reconsider.  It was that kind of cold-heartedness that brings me before you today.  I suffer still from the game my step-father played.  If you are attempting to follow the list to stick it to your STBX, PLEASE DON'T.  

If, however, you are attempting to follow the list because your STBX is abusive, cruel, crazy, or otherwise an unfit parent, then I would encourage it.  But please keep your children in your mind and your heart.  Think of their feelings, even if they are older.  As I said, I was 20 when my step-father began pulling his stunts.  My sister was 9.  She's now 16 and hates the very mention of his name, not from anything my mother said or did, but simply because he made it very clear what level of importance she was.  Don't let this happen to you.  Don't lose your family because you want to play "gotcha".  It isn't worth it.  

[Kitty C.]

Very well said.

I've seen this 'List' for some time and watched it grow.  One thing to understand is that part of what drove this to conception was the abusive, vindictive, cruel exes of the men who contributed to it.  Suffice it to say that many of the contributors are extremely bitter (that's an understatement) after what they've been thru, and rightly so.  

The List was written because it goes both ways, BUT going to opposite extremes serves no useful purpose except to cause harm to the children.  As my parents always taught me by example, do everything in moderation.  Many of the things on the list won't even pertain to some or all, so anyone stupid enough to go gung-ho into all of it is doing nothing but cutting his or her own throat.  Bottom line:  take what you need and leave the rest, but as kitten said, at ALL times keep in mind who you are fighting for, the children.

Hey Kit, I bet your SF is one lonely, unhappy guy about now.  Many who resort to those kinds of tactics usually find themselves all alone eventually.  It soaks into their personna and it spills over into almost every aspect of their lives.  The resultant effects are Karma at it's finest....

[Brent]

Good comments. I'm going to ask the admin to add these two paragraphs to the top of the page.


>If you are attempting to follow the list simply to ensure that
>you don't have to pay child support, I urge you to reconsider.
> It was that kind of cold-heartedness that brings me before
>you today.  I suffer still from the game my step-father
>played.  If you are attempting to follow the list to stick it
>to your STBX, PLEASE DON'T.  
>
>If, however, you are attempting to follow the list because
>your STBX is abusive, cruel, crazy, or otherwise an unfit
>parent, then I would encourage it.  But please keep your
>children in your mind and your heart.  Think of their
>feelings, even if they are older.  As I said, I was 20 when my
>step-father began pulling his stunts.  My sister was 9.  She's
>now 16 and hates the very mention of his name, not from
>anything my mother said or did, but simply because he made it
>very clear what level of importance she was.  Don't let this
>happen to you.  Don't lose your family because you want to
>play "gotcha".  It isn't worth it.  
>

[DecentDad]

Hi Kitten,

Thanks for those thoughts and your caveat on "The List."  

While some may use that list for bad faith reasons, there are many of us who typically approach situations with "good faith".  Such a good faith approach in divorce or child custody has been a huge disadvantage, with perhaps lasting damage to families and children.

When one parent wants to play nasty, the other parent is obligated to learn "The List" if only out of doing what's best for the kids, if not for self-preservation.

Sorry about your cat.  Sounds like losing your cat was far more devastating than losing your step-father... quite a statement about his character.

Best,
DD

[MYSONSDAD]

I think 'the list' has many valuable suggestions. Many of us here will benefit greatly. And am very happy they made this an article.

The only objection I personally have, I don't want to be like my ex. I want to set a good example for my son and be someone he can trust and look up to. I guess I was brought up with 'two wrongs don't make a right'

So many positives included in this article, that will help all of us in one way or another...

Kitty had a great thought, take what you need and leave the rest.
 

[tjraid18]

 I've had chances to increase my time with my kids. Maybe I could even be raising them right now. But I made a decision to try to do the right thing by my kids and my ex-wife. Part of me regrets not taking the oppurtunities I had. But another part of me knows it was'nt right. Thats the part I'd like to think my kids would be proud of.

[Peanutsdad]

Yeah, well dont go in sparc chat being a proponent of fighting fire with fire.

sly will jump all over your backside.

[grazer]

What I believe the list is attempting to do is give father's/soon to be divorced father's a insight to what they are going to face. And it doesn't have to be a vindictive soon to be ex wife to trigger many of the things the "List" speaks about. Many father's/soon to be divorced dad's don't have a clue how bias the courts/GAL's and just about the whole domestice judicial system. They don't have a clue what they are in for and don't have a clue how to protect themselves. And this only worsens and becomes even more bias if the soon to be divorced mom is vindictive and has a "shark" for an attorney (I know there are exceptions to this, but reality is that for the vast majority of the time).

Any father that reads the list, needs to understand not to be nieve and trusting. Rather any father that is facing divorce should be totally informed, just like the "List" states. The "List" is very factual and truthful to 'most' divorces for father's (again I know there are exceptions to this).

I got divorced before SPARC was created. I had no real source to obtain information about divorce. Other than what some guys/aquantances would say that had gotten divorced before me. My ex obtained a real shark for an attorney. My ex even went to some seminar that taught women how to win and win big in divorce. I was totally nieve to divorce, I put my whole faith in my attorney (biggest mistake of my life). My attorney I thought was suppose to represent me and battle for my rights to keep the monies/home and custody of my children (or at least fair share there of). After divorce and being totally screwed by ex's attorney, my attorney, the court system and all the rules/regs of the court system that is in place to protect the female in divorce, I discovered from educating myself what I should have known before divorce. And the "List" is a very good summary of what EVERY MAN SHOULD KNOW ABOUT DIVORCE!!!

Do I sound bitter? Do I sound vindictive? Maybe so, but just as the "List" states and what I found out the hard way, Divorce is war and you better be prepared for the battle. If you are not prepared for the battle or educated to the way "most" divorces proceed, then you will for sure always be in constant debt (paying C/S), you will loose your home, and you will loose the most important thing/your children. You will not gain custody and you will be granted visitation and be regulated to a mere visitator in your children's lives.

[Peanutsdad]

Grazer,


THOSE are EXACTLY the reasons I decided to fight tooth and nail, to show my ex the same mercy I was shown.


As a result, I DO have custody, I do NOT pay cs and I am only PARTIALLY financially ruined.

[kittencaboodle]

>Do I sound bitter? Do I sound vindictive? Maybe so, but just
>as the "List" states and what I found out the hard way,
>Divorce is war and you better be prepared for the battle. If
>you are not prepared for the battle or educated to the way
>"most" divorces proceed, then you will for sure always be in
>constant debt (paying C/S), you will loose your home, and you
>will loose the most important thing/your children. You will
>not gain custody and you will be granted visitation and be
>regulated to a mere visitator in your children's lives.

If you wage a war of attrition in divorce by claiming it a battle then you have already lost your children because I can tell you right now, without compassion and mercy you will hurt them and hurt them hard.  

My husband has asked me to wage his battles for him because I will be merciless when dealing with his ex, but not at the expense of his innocent children.  I cannot and will not support screwing one person, no matter how deserved, at the risk of ruining more lives in the process.  

As I stated, I suffer still from the war my step-father raged.  I went from being a child of the upper middle class to fighting to support a family of 3 on $60 a month.  

[Peanutsdad]

What you are missing here kitten,,, is many of the parents here,, have already been in a war of attrition,, and lost DUE to being merciful and compassionate.

Many here have already lost their homes, their money, their families. They are held in the hands of an ex who may or may not ALLOW them to see their child/ren.



With that as a premise,, I will fight tooth and nail to ensure my children are safe and happy.

Im sorry you suffered at the hands of your step father,, I am not he,, nor are any of the people here. MOST of us want simply,, to be able LEGALLY to raise our children to the best of our ability. To have the RIGHT to be involved with them.


It takes two to make peace,, but only one to make war. Question is, do you roll over and accept all the other side wishes to dish out ? I chose not to do that.


The simple facts are,, most of the courts do not care who's right, who's wrong,, whats in the best interest of a child,,, all they care about,, is what is it gonna take to get this case off my books?

Right and wrong dont enter into the family court equation,, just what can be proved or disproved and who has the better credibility.

[tjraid18]

   Sheeesh!!! Talk about a rock and a hard place. I'm tellin' ya, this whole scenario would never ever in a million years have entered my mind when my ex wife told me "honey, I'm pregnant." It's so ugly to have to deal with these situations were in; with our children in the middle. Alot of vindictive custodial moms totally take advantage of a completely,almost criminally unfair family law legal system. With no regard to what their children are put through. As long as they win. I agree 100% with kittencaboodle about losing your kids as soon as you look at it like a war. No matter who wins, the kids lose.
     I also agree 100% with peanutsdad and others who feel that they have no choice but to fight fire with fire. Either that or essentially lose any semblance of a life. And lose your children on top of it. It's usually an individual judgement call on how to deal with each personal situation. It's great to have "the list" available as long as you realize it's not to be used  for vindictive purposes. We, as single fathers have no tools to help us be able to see our kids. Every day I'm seeing more and more reasons why courts should enforce sanctions against these moms who do not comply with parenting agreements. Manipulating ex-boyfriends/husbands by using their children against them is just as abusive as a man hitting a woman. Lying and making false accuasations is just as criminal as robbery or theft. And probably more damaging. If people were'nt allowed to get away with these things in court or out of court, then the list would'nt even exist. It's just an ugly tool for an ugly situation.

[kittencaboodle]

>What you are missing here kitten,,, is many of the parents
>here,, have already been in a war of attrition,, and lost DUE
>to being merciful and compassionate.
>

Wrong, I'm not missing anything.  As I stated in my original post, I am a step-mother married to a man who has 4 kids.  He tried to do what he thought was best for the kids by giving his ex everything she wanted.  


>
>With that as a premise,, I will fight tooth and nail to ensure
>my children are safe and happy.
>

Even if your fighting makes your children miserable?  If that's the case, it seems to me your fighting more for yourself than for your children, and then YOU are the one missing something.  

>It takes two to make peace,, but only one to make war.
>Question is, do you roll over and accept all the other side
>wishes to dish out ? I chose not to do that.
>

I chose not to do that either.  My husband is incapable of treating anyone with the uncompassionate viewpoint that any legal battle requires.  He asked me to do it for hime and I show his ex no mercy.  One thing I should thank my step-father for would be the ability to legally take someone down and not flinch.  But not if it comes down to harming the kids.  

>Right and wrong dont enter into the family court equation,,
>just what can be proved or disproved and who has the better
>credibility.
>

So that makes it all right to use chioldren as pawns?  

Please tell me that's NOT what you're saying, because if it is, I feel nothing but pity for you.  You've already lost.  

[tjraid18]

  kitten --- We understand your point. From your last post I sense hostility and feel that maybe you don't know where some of the dads are coming from. You were'nt there when my ex wife would call my house from a payphone nearby with the kids in the background to supposedly find out if I was home before she brought the kids over. After not seeing my kids for two months I would answer the phone and listen to her say ---- "hello, are you there? -------- Sorry guys dads not home, guess he doesnt want to see you." and hang up. Never once was I not there on my visitation time with my kids. The things she did were pure torture and abuse. How about the time she picked me up after work one day when I was working two jobs ; with the kids in the car -- and accused me of sleeping with some little bimbo that I worked with at my part time job. She yelled and screamed at me for 15 miles then kicked me out of the car in the middle of nowhere, and I didn't even do anything!!! She was telling the kids they were going to have a little brother or sister because there dad got some "bad word" pregnant.
    Then she ends up becoming friends with this girl and had some kind of a weird relationship with her. I went to file a restraining order on her the next day and she had filed one against me for nothing ---- she just went to the courthouse and lied about a bunch of things. While crazy things like these are going on, I get a rare visit with my kids and my daughter tells me her mom took her to some house and went in a room with some guy or guys while she was left alone in the living room with some other guys. My daughter said the guys were looking at her really weird and scared her alot. There was nothing I could do about it. Her mom would just deny it, and make things even worse for me if I tried to do anything about it. And with the courts and other agencies being biased, they would'nt believe me or help me. Some fathers feel they need to fight for their children because the short term harm to the kids wont be as bad as the long term harm of growing up with a parent who cares more about themselves than their children. Alot of these fathers are probably right.

[kiddosmom]

NO and I do mean NOONE has the right to USE children. Not the mother OR the father.

You can fight for custody without it affecting the children overmuch if both parents act like adults and do not get vicious.

PD terms this custody dispute as a 'fight' because that is what he had to do. The mother refused to let him see, speak or be near his own child unless he paid her X amount of $$, and even then she did not want him seeing her. Is that not the MOTHER using the child as a pawn?

 It is 'termed' fight, battle ect because that is what it feels like, we have to fight to see the child to begin with.

Fighting does not mean getting in the mothers or fathers face and hashing it out. It is going to court for your rights as a parent.

[kittencaboodle]

I understand perfectly where the dads are coming from.  

I'm not anything like the ex-wives (or in some cases, ex-husbands) either.  I have to watch my husband deal with the loss of his kids every day.  I have to deal with putting my own life on hold because his ex refuses to do the mature thing, not that she ever has.  

My own desire for my own family has to wait because she was selfish and lied about birth control.  

Believe me, I would like nothing more than to make her cry.  I want nothing more than for her to suffer as she has made my husband suffer.  

But I don't.  I control the base urges that compel me to act as some primal beast and rend the flesh from her limbs.  If I were to do what I wanted, the only ones hurt would be the kids.  And I cannot do that to my husband or his children.  

Do I have hostility in me?  Yes.  I watched my step-father try to crush my mother for 6 years and he still tries to this day.  Then I marry a man whose ex-wife tries to do the same to him.  

The harm these battles do to children is anything BUT short-term.  Counseling doesn't help a small child understand anything.  It doesn't even help a big kid.  If this were a better world, everyone would be nice, there would be no divorce, and sunshine would flow from my butt.  Kids wouldn't have to deal with this.  

But the world isn't perfect, sunshine doesn't flow from my butt, and kids do have to deal with this.  Why make it harder by turning it into a war?

[Kitty C.]

What YOU don't understand is that the dads here don't want to do that either!  Our PBFH is an idiot and IMO a candidate for involuntary sterilization.  I've seen her scream over the head of SS at DH while SS is bawling his eyes out.  I would have liked nothing better than to rip her a new one right then and there.

But I am a decent human being with compassion and I would NEVER resort to that level.  And as angry as I've seen DH in regards to her, I know he feels the same.  The 'FIGHT' we're talking about here is a HUGE process, starting with NCP's learning just exactly what their rights are AND the rights of their children, then fighting for them in court.  We're not talking about going for the throat literally, but figuratively and in an acceptable, humane manner.  After all, our children will be watching this and how we conduct ourselves.  

Maybe they will suffer temporarily, but what we're fighting for in court is for the REST OF THEIR LIVES, not just for the next couple years.  I've heard of many a child come back as adults and ask their parent 'Why DIDN'T you fight for me, knowing what you did?'  Children are extremely perceptive and we don't give them nearly enough credit in that.  I've been watching my SS for 7+ years and have watched him go from worshipping the ground his mother walked on at age 4, to hating her guts at times, and he's only 10.  I can only imagine what it will be like when he hits 13+.

'War' and 'fight' are ONLY figures of speech.  The reason we call it that is because of the mindset one must attain to be able to navigate thru the mess of dealing with a child custody dispute.  No one here, in their right minds, would consider literally tearing down their ex, as it would only serve to expose them in the same light as the ex.  Here we like to think that tho we are in for the long haul, we WILL take the high road and never lower ourselves to the immature, vindictive, vicious levels that many CP's do.  We will set an example for our children and show them that rights must be stood up for and you MUST stand up for them or lose them.

[tjraid18]

     My mother was married four times. I know all about stepdads and the damage caused to kids who come from hostile, broken homes. Thats a lot of the reason I don't want to have to put my kids through "a war". But if I would have fought tooth and nail for custody like peanutsdad did and maybe got custody of my kids, I can't help but feel that their quality of life --- for the rest of their life -- would be so much better. A few rough years would leave some long term damage. But playing soccer and football and baseball and taking piano lessons and doing better in school, eating meals together, going to church, and all the other things that enrich childrens lives would more than make up for going through a custody battle. Don't blame fathers for wanting to make sure their kids are raised well ----
     I look at it like my kids didn't ask to come here. They were brought here by their mother and I. We both have a responsibility to make sure they grow up healthy. If I feel that that isn't happening, then I have the right to do whats necessary to make sure it does happen. Of course I'm thinking of the kids first, so I'm not going to carelessly rip them apart in the process.
                                                                 

             MAGIC LITTLE SEED THAT MAKES IT ALL GROW!!!>    tjraid

[nosonew]

BUT, as a child with a stepfather-who is more of a father to me than my own father (via his choice), and a bio mom who has a great ex, and a stepmom who has  a vindictive witch to deal with, I have this to say:

EVERY situation is different.  EVERY father should have this list made available to him for use IF NEEDED.  Perhaps my bio dad left and didn't come back because of problems with my mom, I DON'T KNOW, but I do know, HE NEVER TRIED.  Perhaps his pocketbook and/or his relationship with other women were more important than his kids, I DON"T KNOW, and now, I DON'T CARE, I have a "dad" although not biological, but he is MY DAD.  Because my other dad either didn't care or GAVE UP.

My ex, I dislike.  Or I wouldn't have divorced him.  BUT, he is a great dad, and has been involved in every aspect of OUR sons life since our separation.  I could have made it tough for him, but why?  It just hurts our son.  We now, over 13 years later, I get along great with his wife (whom I personally feel sorry for, lol), and I get along fine with him too.  I do this for my son.  

My ss's mom, I feel sorry for now.  She is mentally unstable I believe. The things she has done to us and her own son are incomprehensible to me.  However, what goes around, comes around.

So, don't JUDGE other people until you have been in their shoes.  All are different.  And I mean, walking in their SHOES!  Which you cannot do, so chill.  Just keep an open mind that your experiences are not like all others, not everyone should or will think like you, react like you, or do as you do.  

That is all I have to say, whew!