Proper medical and dental care; what constitutes neglect?

[my3sons]

I'm wondering what other parents opinions are on this subject.  My ex has had custody of our 3 sons for the last 5 years ( I didn't lose custody, volutarily switched with ex trying to do what appeared to be the right thing for the kids at the time - boy was I wrong), with me sharing custody 50/50 for the last year of that time period.  

She has never taken the kids (now ages 12,11, 9)  to a pediatrician or dentist.  Not once.  The only medical care that they have recieved has been when I've taken them.  For the first four years of this scenario, I lived 350 miles away from her, so the kids would only get medical attention when they were at my home.

I've moved to within 8 miles of them now, and was successful in gaining the shared custody, but despite a court order that states she must take them to the doctor and dentist at least once per year (sad that a parent has to be ordered by a court to take their child to the doctor - did I mention she's a nurse?) she still doesn't do this.  So my wife and I take the kids for checkups and to the dentist a few times per year.  

Does this constitute neglect of these children by my ex in anybody else's mind?  Her attitude has been " if they're not sick, why should they go to the doctor?".  Am I wrong here?  I'm seriously considering attempting to get full custody of the kids back, but don't want to jump the gun either.

Thanks for any feedback.  

[VAStepmom]

I"m not sure if this is neglect, unless the kids are sick and aren't being treated.  We're going through something similar, also wondering if we're dealing with neglect.  My SD has 3-5 cavities, that you can actually see, for over 6 months and BM has not taken her to have them filled.  She's had 3 appointments, but hasn't made it to one.  And BM has been through dental hygine school.  

I'm curious though, how is the wording in your order for making her take them to the densist and doctor.  I'm thinking we need this (at least for the dentist) in our order, but I'm just not sure the best way to word it.  Thanks, and good luck!

[joni]

We have a similar situation with my DH's ex (also a nurse...what's with that?).  She's never taken her to a dentist or the eye doctor, even after the child complained.  We took her.  Mom had a cow, tried to then cancel our future appointments.

Mom only takes the kid to the doc when the kid is deathly sick.  Spoke with our atty about it last month, he said the court doesn't put much weight on this unless there's MAJOR medical neglect or it's combined to show a pattern of other neglect.

I would keep quiet on it.  Don't make a big deal of it.  Now that you live near, make it your responsibility.  And if there's an issue of custody in the future, you can use this to show that you are the more responsibile parent.

Get involved in the school.  Be a parent volunteer in the classroom.  Sit in the classes as often as you can.  Clearly, the children are lacking in the parental support department from mom.  You appear to be sincere, so take this opportunity to be actively involved in their lives and leave the legal issues on the back burner.  The legal issue should not be your motivation here, the health, welfare and community of your children should.

Holy Crap....I just read your post on child support.  Were you married to the same woman as my husband was?  His Ex was also a nurse, refused to work full time (her volunteer work consists of hanging out at the mall to make it look more busy), is in college at 36 (on her 3rd career change, never finished the other degree, which my DH is paying off her school loan on that from the divorce), and also neglects the needs of the child medically.  We won't get into the emotional neglect and abuse.

Any who...keep in touch.  I'm looking up the point you raised on voluntary impoverishment and see if it's something we can use.  Feel free to email me.

[Kitty C.]

What with your liberal custody arrangement, and your ample opportunites to take the kids yourselves, there's really not much you can do.  No, she isn't following the CO and clearly is in contempt, BUT the children aren't in a state of neglect because you've taken care of making sure they HAVE been seen.

Now, if she starts to seriously balk at your attempts to have them seen (cancelling appts., coming to appts. and making a scene, etc.), then I'd push for something legal.........and on top of that, you'd have witnesses at the doctor/dentist's office for proof.

Personally (having been in some aspect of healthcare for over 20 years), her being a nurse and pulling this crap is appalling.  But one thing to keep in mind is MSP (Munschausen's by Proxy)......certainly an MO would be to allow the kids to get so sick, then SHE saves the day by getting them the help they desperately need, and her 'degree' would just add to that.

And she also has to know that the majority of schools will not allow kids to register unless they have updated immunization cards.

[my3sons]

Thanks for the reply.  I've found some interesting articles on the subject.  The American Academy of Pediatrics outlines a specific schedule that parents are recommended to follow regarding proper routine medical care for children.  The definition of the term "neglect" is definately a gray area.  

The wording in my custody/visitation order is very straightforward on this.  Here' s what it says:

"Mother shall take the children to an in plan dentist at least one time/year, prior to the summer custodial access with Father.  Mother shall take the children to their pediatrician well check-ups each and every year, prior to the summer custodial  access with Father.  Father shall have the option of taking the children to a dentist or pediatrician while they are with him if he feels that additional checkups are necessary."

This was written at a time when I lived in NY and ex and kids lived here in MD.  However, once I moved to MD and was granted shared custody, this remained in effect by order of the judge.

[my3sons]

Thanks for the reply Joni.  I think you're right about the court not placing too much weight without serious medical issues.  I guess that baffles me a little, but it seems to be true.  I think it's sad for kids out there who don't have another parent doing the right thing when CP isn't.  What do they do?  Just suffer through it I suppose.  I think 5 years with no doctor or dentist is neglectful, but I think you're right.  Unless something bad actually happened to the kids as a result, the court will not put much weight into it at all.  

My whole reason for moving here to MD was to make sure the kids are being cared for properly, so I'll just keep plugging along with that philosophy and as you said, hopefully, if custody actually ever becomes an issue, I'll have a long history of properly caring for the kids and she won't.  

I'll post the results of my voluntary impoverishment issue after we go to court.  She's got to go to a contempt hearing on April 11.

[my3sons]

Thanks for the reply.  Luckily, although she refuses to take the kids herself, she has not attempted to stop me from doing so.  She's got a contempt hearing in April for this issue and for the fact that our court order states that although I am to provide medical insurance for the kids (which I do), we are to split uncovered medical expenses 50/50.  Not only does she not take them  for medical or dental care herself, but she also refuses to pay her share of the bills.  She's in the hole for a few hundred dollars, so we'll see what the judge thinks in April.

[joni]

This will also give you a good opportunity to gage your barometer on the judge and see the judge's attitude towards your ex as well as yourself.

[wendl]

how did the kids go 5yrs with no medical attention, how did they allow them in school without updated immunization records.

I know my sons dr says once  a year check up (unless child gets sick) which my son usually only goes once a year.

Dentist says 2x per year for cleaning and more if he has a cavity that needs tending to.

Then my son goes to the nuerologists 4x a year, two blood draws then to the dr's to review blood work from lab with  us.

It is sad that you get in more trouble with the law for neglecting your animals than a parent neglecting their children.

Keep taking the kids to the dr, show you are the one that is making sure of their health and needs.

**These are my opinions, they are not legal advice**

[my3sons]

Thanks for the reply.   They got in to school because I took them to the doctor when they would come visit me in New York.  I eventually came to the conclusion that the only way they'd get the care they need is if I lived with/near them, so I moved down to Marlyland last year.

I agree with you, it is sad that animals seem to have better legal protection than children.

The American Academy of Pediatrics has a recommended schedule of pediatric care at:

http://www.aap.org/visit/prevent.htm

[joni]

excellent...thanks for that link

[Kboeds]

Had to chime in here.

my3sons... I applaud you for stepping in taking care of your childrens medical needs.

I'm not a nurse so don't take this wrong, but I can see where a nurse, would feel she can take care of most things that come up. The fact that she is a nurse is probably why she doesn't take them.
Not excusing her just thinking out loud.

I have to say though, I would rather have 3 healthy children that mom doesn't take to the dr, then the ex my DH has that takes the kids to the Dr so much we never know what is going to be wrong with them from week to week. I think bm has Munchausen in a different form then what you see and read about. She doesn't make them sick like they show on T.V. She just feeds off the problems they do have.. She just keeps telling the Dr's, he/she isn't better do more, do more instead of taking care of her children properly herself. You think fighting that a parent is medically neglectful for not taking healthly children to the Dr. is hard, try fighting a parent that (Loves her children soooo much that she takes them to the Dr all the time because they are Soooooo sick) B*** S***

The courts listen to her and say awwww.. this poor mother has all this burden with all these sick kids. She is such a good mother, no illness will get by her.  You just want to strangle the legal system and say your right, no illness will get by her because she is the one who concocted it.
(Duh!!)

Sorry for the rant..
my3sons... Be oh so thankful that you have healthy children who are allowed to stay that way.  I would also wonder if part of the reason she doesn't do it is because she knows you will. If she didn't get the kids shots, they would be kicked out of school. Has it ever gotten to that point before you did it for her and paid the 100% of the uninsured protion? Not to upset you more... but she may just be playing you.

Good luck

Kb

[kitten]

> We're going through something similar,
>also wondering if we're dealing with neglect.  My SD has 3-5
>cavities, that you can actually see, for over 6 months and BM
>has not taken her to have them filled.  She's had 3
>appointments, but hasn't made it to one.  And BM has been
>through dental hygine school.  

Gotta give my $.02 here.  One of the reasons a friend of mine got full custody of his 6 yo daughter is because of a cavity gone untreated.  It IS neglect.  A lot of people think dental work is not that urgent, however having been a dental assistant at one time, I can tell you that untreated cavities usually abcess which is VERY painful and can be very dangerous so close to the brain.  I would get copies of the childs dental chart proving the diagnosis and the missed appointments.  The office staff writes EVERTHING in the chart including failed appointments.  Not sure your custody agreement, but your DH should get SD an appointment ASAP and take her to it, ask that they document in the chart that Dad brought her.  Also, just because she went through hygeine school does not mean she understands the cavity part.  Hygeinists do cleanings.  We like to refer to them as 'Oral Janitors'.  They're just there to clean up after lunch.  LOL

[my3sons]

I'm my3sons new wife.  Was following what all had to say about the medical.  It's not that the 3 children are so healthy- she just lets it go till either my husband or myself takes the kids.  She is always either sleeping, has some event going on in her life to prevent her from going, etc.  As for the dentist...think she wanted us to start it back up so that she didn't have to hear all about the rotting teeth in their mouths.  We are the ones who had to explain the horrible condition of their teeth.  (and it was very embarassing- they had rotten roots that had broken off in their mouths)  She has shown no care for these children what-so-ever.  They are just a meal ticket to her.  She gets a check each month- which she has used for trips for herself, to by  a new car (it was not needed, just wanted), to go tanning, and to get things like her nails done.  She has even stated how they are out of "her" house when they turn 18.  Sorry know that I went off subject a bit but it seems to me that the courts want abuse to be proven, not neglect.  How much in danger of their health does it have to be to say enough is enough.  I have a child with an ex of my own and would never dream of putting my child at risk

thanks for letting me get that out.

tef

[Troubledmom]

Legal Definitions
The Federal Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act (CAPTA) provides minimum standards for definitions. CAPTA states,

"The term 'child abuse and neglect' means, at a minimum, any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker, which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation, or an act or failure to act which presents an imminent risk of serious harm" (42 U.S.C.A. §5106g(2)


So unless her neglect of the children meets that criteria, it won't fly.

TM

[my3sons]

Thanks for the reply.  Sadly, I think you are correct.  It's a shame that the law doesn't consider a parent to be neglectful unless the child is dead or seriously hurt.  Unless you are a licensed pediatrician, I do not agree with anyone who says that they are capable of diagnosing their children's illnesses, both medical and dental, for five years and that going to a pediatrician and dendist is unecessary.  But that's the sad world we live in.  Nobody cares until somebody gets hurt or dies, and then we all gasp, act shocked, and use the gift of hindsight to judge what "should have been done".  

[Troubledmom]

One of the things to consider, is filing contempt on Mom for NOT following the court order and obtaining the routine medical/dental care as ordered by the court.

Although you may not get the contempt at least you are establishing a paper trail that shows her unwillingness to provide adequet medical/dental care.  A trail that could provide a way to get primary placement.

TM

[my3sons]

Thank you for the response.  I actually did file for the contempt  for two counts; one for not following the order and one for failure to pay support (she is required to pay 50% of the uncovered medical expenses - I provide the insurance) because she has not only refused to take them to the doctor or dentist, but she hasn't helped chip in to pay for it either.  Her hearing is on the 11th of April.  I agree with you though that although they may not grant my request, it will raise awareness in the court.