Giving permission on dads time

[mango]

We have a 50/50 shared parenting plan, and SD is 12.

Highly conflictive, no decent communication between parents. BM feels she has a right to make ALL decisions as if BF is only a visitor. She signs up SD for activities / events and sends us the last minute schedule and costs after she enrolls. Expects us to comply, and have no opinions on the costs, or the daily schedules of the activities. Nor (it seems) do we have any rights to make our own family plans with SD.

We have a family of 6 (including her), and our schedule is anything but available 24/7 for her to blindly make plans on it.

Well she took us to court when we objected to one of the activities and she lost. Court told her she needed to "consult with father prior to signing up". Parenting plan says "prior consultation for activities", but she still does it, over and over again. Then says BF doesn't care about her best interests, only his own, yadda-yadda.

The one that gets hurt is my SD, if we happen to have made previous family plans that we are unwilling to change. (Also my own family suffers with having to break our plans, and they are disappointed)

OK.
Now, we just found out that she signed her up for a booth at an art festival on our weekend in 2 months. Funny too cause we do not see her for the second half of the summer, and then she scheduled our first weekend we get her back. Anyway, we happen to find out about this through another source, not her, so technically we are still unaware. (SD is strictly not allowed to discuss anything that her and her mom do either.-PAS)

The game: She will wait until the very last minute, to give us information knowing by then, we will have made other family plans together, and then we are the "bad guys" if we say "sorry we already made family plans". Or we can "break" our plans to accommodate this rude behavior. Unfortunately, the SD is always the victim to this game, and not by our hand. It's win-win for BM, she either ruins our family plans together or we are the bad-guys for not allowing her to attend because of our plans. (which are never important enough – according to her)

The thing is we would never dream of planning something that was on her time.

This may seem so petty, but some o fthe stuff she has planned for her were as large as a group trip abroad, during our summer. She paid for it, and all without asking us first.  Then BF refused to sign the passport, and the trip got cancelled and teh people were all mad at BF, for being a bad-guy. But why should we loose our summer with her. She never offered us a trade in time either. She just assumes if she gets a bunch of people involed that our back is against the wall, and we "have to say yes, no matter what."

How can we handle this the right way?

We have considered "contempt" on her for "not consulting/uncooperative", as this is a constant occurrence, and she seems to not learn. But she says it's "Us" that are not cooperative, because "we don't allow her to do things she likes to do".

Should we involve the SD and explain to her the rules and make her accountable for some of this?

Any smart ideas?

[junglechicken]

I'm sorry, but I wouldn't pull any punches with this kind of behaviour.  I think you should explain to sd that people aren't there to demand things of, you all have plans that DON'T revolve around her, and if you do not see advance paperwork regarding schedule changes and costs, sd does not attend said activity.

All in a loving way, of course.  I really don't think she should be held accountable.  She should, however, be taught that her mother's behaviour is not the way of the world, without badmouthing her mother.  Tightrope act, that is.

Will you be the bad guys?  Yeah, probably.  You have to decide what's more important...that sd gets what she wants, or that the whole family is happy.

And yes, throw contempt at bm.  It really doesn't matter what she says.  You haven't been consulted, even though you are supposed to be.  DOn't just let her get away with it.

It's too bad sd is in the middle, but saying No to your children is part of being a parent.  What if you and dh were her parents and she wanted to do something on a day or weekend you all had plans?  Would you cancel your plans to accommodate her activities or would you gently remind her you have plans (or inform her of such) and say "Maybe next time, honey"?

[ocean]

I agree....She is old enough to talk to about being a part of a family. Tell her you will support her in anything she wants to do but you need to know about it and then you will talk to her to see if you can do it. I tell my own, one activity per season. Ask her what she would like to do/interested in and look into what is available.

[backwardsbike]

I am dealing with this exact same issue.  I am NC.  CP knows that if he lets me know ahead fo time that I will ask for compensatory time.  In the past he has gotten away with scheduling things and having the kids ask permission to go after he has already enrolled them.

You're right.  You end up being the bad guy.  But after years of giving in and only now realizing that every time I did I gave away a little parental authority, I am saying NO.

My DD is 13.  I have told her that unless I know in advance from now on the answer will be "no".  Just like that David Spade commerical for Capital One!

This time the issue is Girls scout camp.  SM mom is the director of the camp.  So I know that they knew the dates at least since March.  Dad never informed me as per the order.  DD never told me the dates either.  No one allowed me to register her.  Then last week she tells me she's " reminding me" of the dates for the camp.  The answer:  "Oh so sorry I didn't know in advance.  We have plans that cannot be changed."

The kicker in my case:  I offered the CP that weekend in trade for another weekend we wanted to switch and he turned me down!  The camp was never mentioned.  When I mentioned to DD that I had offered to switch that weekend with CP and he had declined adn never mentioned the camp her answer was, " Well Dad can't be bothered with remembering when Girls Scout stuff is."  Well then...it must not be that important.

[mango]

SD brought up the art booth on her own this weekend, and we said funny that you are all "signed up" for this and no one discussed it with us first? We told her it might be a good idea for her own sake to look at a calender and see who's time it is and ask that parent for persmission, if it's something important. Because the BM is not allowed to give permission for things during dads time. But it went in one ear and out the other with a blank stare.

She said, well I was letting you know ahead of time that I am doing this. She missed the point. You do not "inform" dad of plans you or your mom already made on dads time. Permission needs to come from mom for mom's time dad on dads time. ~Simple.

She went in shut down mode.

Our kicker is that the BM's mothers boyfriend "supposedly" signed her up for this event, because DH had threatened BM a few months ago, if she keeps signing up for events on his time he will file contempt against her. So she is having other people do it so she can be immune from contempt but still play the same game.

Dad is still the bad-guy if SD can't go. It's win-win for BM.

[Kitty C.]

I don't necessarily think it's a 'win-win' for your BM.  She may have had her BF 'make the arrangements', but if your DH decided to hold her in contempt, it will still stick, since it was done by HER BF.  And she still had to know about it in advance, the BF couldn't have known your SD would be involved without talking to the BM anyway.  What a lame-ass excuse for her to try to get out of having the finger pointed at her!  Nail her on it!

[backwardsbike]

Mango...our X's must be related.  My X does the same thing--gets new wife to make the plans then feins innocence!

I am still holding firm on the girls scout issue even thought the X has asked me now, after i had told DD we already had pland  for permission for her to go.  yes, i am the bad guy.  But you know what?  Kids need to know that thier parents are going to occassionally say "no" adn they will be angry and then work it out.  hey, we are family.  We're stuck with each other.  Since I have become less afraid of being the bad guy I have become much better at pointing out who ddi what and who didn't.  The kids are not starting to see who is responsible and who isn't with regard to activites.

Best of luck to you.

[mango]

Thanks for all the posts! It helps to know others feel we should hold our ground on this, because sometimes we feel inclined to let her go to stuff if we had nothing else going on. But then this behavior continues.

We really do need to hold firm and say "no" if they do not have the consideration to ask us in advance, the answer is always going to be "no".

I agree 100% that kids need to know that "they" do not call all the shots, and the parent has the final say, and it will not always be a "yes".

[oklahoma]

We just started seeing SDs regularly (after 4 years, with only 8 or 9 weekend visits allowed.)  SDs are now 12 and 13.  Court order was that we only see them Saturdays for the first 3 months, so we have 9 hours every other weekend.  We pack as much as we possibly can into that time.  Girls are very aware of schedule and the situation....

I was a little surprised when OSD called Sunday night to ask what we were doing the following Saturday, because they just found out about a church activity during Dad's time and they wanted to go.  Wow!!  Love it!  It's hard to give up a few hours, but in our case, the phone call is such a jump forward.  (And we had not yet made definite plans for the day.)  I wish I could say what caused the change, but I don't really know.  We have told SD's "no" on occasion when we had other plans, but we have also altered plans to accomodate special activities.

[OtherMother]

We have the same problem.  BM signs SDs up for soccer and expects us to take them 25 miles for 3 hours on Saturdays.  Our attorney sent a letter telling her we wouldn't be taking them since she did not consult us, but then she makes up conversations that she and DH had about her keeping them until after the games.  DH has no recollection of said conversations but gives in.  It drives me crazy.  The girls feel "guilty for letting their teams down" when we don't take them.  If that's not a coached statement from an 8 yo, I don't know what is.  The little one (8) is dying for ballet lessons which could be given on the days we don't have her (we have a 30/70), but her BM tells her there's no money for that.  We'll come up against this again in the fall, I'm sure.

[williaer]

I feel your pain here....I talked to BM yesterday, because our time (split 50/50) comes up on Friday at 6...she says "A wants to come for the weekend, but then she said she wants to come back"...WHAT- sorry, this is our court ordered parenting time. So I talk to child and she says "Grandma says it's crazy for me to come to your house, because my mom is having her baby next week"...so the real story is BM's mom ( who doesn't know that we have joint custody by the way)- thinks child should "be with her mother is case something happens"...whatever, we're picking her up on Friday at the appropriate time and keeping her for 2 weeks, that's all there is to it.

[backwardsbike]

What does grandma think?  Is she expecting the child to boil water and call the doctor when the miriacle occurs?

I would,if possible, see that the child gets to see her mom and new sib for a short time either during the hospital stay or after mom and baby are at home.  If you don't, I am afraid this could bite you in the butt. But skipping custody time because everyone is waiting on the stork is just nuts!

[lovingdadinks]

I don't know where you are at, but we were just told by our Arbitrator that legally, the kids can't make the decisions. When it comes right down to it, and bad ordeals like this, the parents has ALL the say in it. No matter how old the child is, until they are 18.
And even if BM's BF is making these plans, it will still fall on BMs shoulders cuz it is happening on her time, her house and all of that nice stuff. It will come back on her. Really, if he is just a BF, I wouldn't even consider it legit. What say does he really have?
I would in a parental way, tell SD that the weekend she is to do this is a weekend with her dad and that activity is not an option. Explain to her that she is old enough to look at a calendar first to check to see who's weekend it is. And if she isn't, then be prepared to be disappointed. If this is a weekend with Dad and the whole fair thing is just not gonna work, then so be it, she doesn't go. She is still the child here and you and dad are the adults. She'll be all mad, but she'll get over it.

[wysiwyg]

We have been thru this with several years of tball, scouts, soccer, basket ball, swim lessons, music lessons anything and everything to minimize our time with SS.  BM refuses to even give the child his uniforms or instrument when he cmoes to us in order to force an altercation between us.  Example, tball, BM does not give uniform, we say order says you provide all clothing appropriate for when child is with us or he does not go, mom files EMERGENCY hearing to force us to go, we go anyway, and when we ask for niform she calls 911 and claims we are "with holding the child against his will" - I swear every cop in this small town sealed off every availalbe entrance - exit and surrounded our van with all 4 of our kids and us in it!  Once we exp,lained to the cops that it was our weekend they got the uniform for us.

Our problem is that we see SS EOW, lately she has done this, send the child to scouts for the weekend or to something else BEFORE we are to get the child, that way no one is home......how convienient!  She even did this Christmas day when we went to get SS.

He is now 15, he is afraid of his mother, she is physically abusive, and admitted to this in court, BF has plenty of medical notes and treatments from her beatings.  We told SS that we have fought to see him for 12 years and spent over 100K and there is nothing left to fight with, his mom will not change and after she was held in contempt 6 times for failing to abide by the orders, nothing will change her she keeps right on doing it.  He will have to change her and tell her waht he wants - until then - we just enjoy our life with what we have left, a small apartment and our love for our kids and each other.

[gollymolly]

it is very strange to read all of these posts and learn that there are many people experiencing the EXACT same thing our family goes thru.

it really boils down to the behavior will not change until you correct it using the court. that is what we are doing.
we filed for contempt against my ex and are requesting a parenting coordinator to help us with issues like this.

with the children.... just do everything in your power to make it easier on them. even to the point of it doesn't bother you what the other parent does or when she/he reveals something the other parent has done, let the child think you already knew about that and tell him/her not to worry about it.

with something as big as an abroad trip that must be cancelled. first of all talk with your child and help him/her understand that they aren't being punished for the other parent's behavior. but judge accordingly. until you can clear the situation up in court, help your child deal with it. and if she/he really wishes to participate in the activity and it is not a major disruption (ie entire summer with you), then make it easy on her/him.... let her go.

basically, in a 50/50 situation, when it is your possessory period (your 50%) you have FULL control of your time with the child(ren). you have the final say. however, i would suggest using the postal service when cancelling such events via certified mail... stating something to the effect that since you were not notified of the even and it occurs in your possessory period, you have taken the liberty of cancelling the event and that the other parent must contact the organization if a refund is due her.

please do not worry about what other people think.... the only person that matters is the child.

good luck!

[timtow]

Wow, this is all so sad.

It seems to me that the ones who get slammed the most through all this are the kids.  I agree with the idea of enlisting them in being responsible for their own activities, understanding what the arrangements are, and what they need to do per the decree if they want to do an activity.  If they can get some outside support in negotiating that, some trusted counselor who can also occasionally advocate for the child, then that sounds like a good idea too.  

With luck this will open the door to conversations about divorce & the ethics of divorce law, some sense of their parents' intense interest in and love for them, and maybe some thought about what they want to do with their lives when they grow up.

I am continually amazed, though, at the lack of accountability, and the sense that everything is always up for grabs.  My ex is a basically generous, kind guy, but even as we negotiate custody, he's talking about how we'll have to change everything if he gets a job 50 miles away.  I had to pull him back to earth and explain that once we make an arrangement, it's up to each of us to live up to it.  If we want to change it, we can ask,  but the other is under no obligation at all to do so, unless a judge orders it.  

[mango]

Well now, SD is making her own plans on our time, and calls dad and cries, "I don't want to come see you this weekend, I want to do this or tht with friends."

So, he has been letting her stay at her moms from time to time. But, it's pretty much expected that on thursday we get the call, with some excuse or another.

He told her he was tired of her disrespecting him and making plans on OUR time, and she should be asking him, and not telling him. He said he is more then willing to be "flexible" but wants some respect.

In the past BM has always said SD doesnt' want to come because this or that. She would say things that SD said that were mean about us. SD said she even hated her siblings. We have been fighting back to force the parenting time despite of what BM reports about ehr time with us, and how miserable she supposedly is/was.

Now that SD (age 13 now) is personally calling us to reject us, we feel different about stuff.

I mean do we force her to come over, or be flexible, or let go.

Bio-dad is hurt now. Very hurt. and doesn't know what to do. She is PAS'd beyond us, and the rejection is hard on him, now that it comes from his daughter herself.

He feels like if he keeps being flexible, we will pretty much be perminatley eliminated. Maybe deep down he wants him to be firm about the time together.

I personally am loosing my energy to keep doing this. It's hard on my own kids, and it hurts to see them go through the dissappointments too. I count down the time to age 18, but even then the BM will still work her against us.

I imagine the we will be bad-mouthed to grandkids someday too. I really don't see much hope for my SD to ever feel free to love us. Her mom is so manipulative, and can convince anyone to see things her way. She is really good at it.

Right now, we are just beign flexible. If BM tries to take us to court again, for the 6th time, I'm sure the courts will look down on her. Especially after the last time.

But at age 13 I don't really see a point in court, when the child is so in favor of her mom, we would  be foolish to bother with court.

[notnew]

My child is in full blown PAS. I have not seen nor heard from my child in about 6 months.

We were in court for a custody reversal based on factual evidence that was supported and actions continued despite court ordering they stop. Mom managed to BS her way again. Due to mom refusing to communicate with me since day one, and the resulting multiple court appearances this has brought about, the court now sees us as a jointly responsible adveserial divorced couple who is using the courts to try to get back at each other. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

My child stated repeatedly that she wanted to live with me. Not only to me, but to mother, and all of my family members. Now child states child does not want to live with me and is afraid of me because of my temper. Of course a child who is doing the things  child is doing (and getting no guidance or punishment from mom), would be afraid of the parent's anger (the parent who actually PARENTS) upon finding out what the actions have been.

I have seen over the years that the court talks a good talk but they rarely if ever walk the walk. When the mother discovers she can do whatever she wants and will get little more than a slap on the wrist, the actions will never stop. You can see clearly what the mother and child learn from this. We who are behaving as we should are toast and cannot change anything it seems. Very frustrating experience I know.

As much as I know it hurts you and your husband, you have to make a decision to either pursue or let go. We decided to let go. It is not worth the sacrifice our children go through or to both of us personally. Child has assumed personality of the mother and spouts the same crap. I love my child and miss our relationship. I can only hope that one day the child will come around to a better way of thinking and have a desire to have a relationship with me again. I also hope that my child does not ruin any chance of having a successful and emotionally healthy life before coming to the realization that the party does end and you have to be responsible for your actions at some point.

I'm sorry for anybody who is experiencing this horrible abuse and pray that one day the courts will realize this is a real thing and do something REAL about it.