Question...maybe just a vent...

[rosegdrose]

I am in the process of going through divorce with my husband. We have 2 young children, 1 year old boy and 3 year old girl. I am trying my hardest to do what is best for our children. However, I don't feel like he is, I feel like whatever he does is going to be a direct opppsite of me bc he doesn't want anything to be like me. (Does that make sense?). Because we don't have anything finalized, we both have custody and can basically do whatever we see fit. So he is taking the children for one full week at his house and then one full week at my house. This schedule has been going on for about 2 months. Before we separated, I was the stay-at-home mother. I was the primary child care provider. I don't think the children are responding well to this schedule. They seem to be clingy when they are with me. My daughter has begun to cry when I drop her off at school or leave her with anyone (before she didn't). My son is the same way, now he is having problems going to be on his own. He screams and fights me (Body rigid). I don't want to just put him in his crib bc I don't want him to see me walking away from him. I have our daughter call and say good night to her father and older half-sister when I have the children, but doesn't have her call me. So I have decided to call myself to talk with her but she refuses to come to the phone, whining or crying that she doens't want to. So I call her at daycare instead and she comes to the phone just fine and talks with me for a few minutes. I know that my husband knows the importance of consistency and that trying to make our homes similar, in regards to schedules, bedtimes, etc, will help the kids adjust; but he refuses and just says that he'll have his rules at his house and vice versa. I hate how this is upseting the kids. I tried to suggest to him that we can do 50/50 when the children are older and can cognitively understand week here and week there. I am afraid that every time the kids go, they don't understand that they are coming back. My husband got into an agruement with me on the phone and he was screaming at me that I am nothing to his daughter (my step-daugher, the one I raised for the last 8 years of her life). I hung up after he screamed that over and over bc I didn't want our children to hear him talking to me like that. There is a zillion other petty things that I am sure all of you have been through. Why doesn't my daughter want to call me on the phone when she is over there? I worry that he (and his family bc he lives with his mom and dad) are bad-mouthing me or something.

Please don't confuse any of this as trying to keep my kids from their father. My husband has custody of his daughter (from a previsous relationship so I am all for fathers). My husband has been a previous pot smoker( everyday) and drank every night afterwork (enough drinks for our counselor to tell me that he has a problem with alcohol). I know he has cleaned up bc he knows that I would bring up the pot issue in court.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be great.
Thanks.

[CGS]

I don't have any certain legal advice to help you through this process, but your story is very much like my own.  I am currently (and have been since birth) the CP of our 5 year old. My x sounds very much like yours and each time there is a new significant other decides to play super parent and demand "rights".  

We have tried 50/50 in almost every arrangement there is on several occassions now.  Each time, as soon as the S.O. is gone, the arrangement ends and we go back to eow.  

Anyway, I know how frustrating and at times infuriating it can be to be in your position.  I don't know what you can do legally.. but in terms of preventing your own sanity, I do have a few been there done that suggestions that have helped me:

First and foremost get yourself into individual counseling. The biggest thing I learned is to treat this transition period like a traumatic event and for the grief and loss that it is.. that alone helped me tremendously.  

You don't have to tell the x you're going nor can he require you to tell him.. and trust me, it helps so much!! If nothing else it is a safe outlet away from your kids and your friends so that you can be at your best when you are with them.

Also, there are a few books that have been a lifesaver to me!
- Joint Custody With a Jerk
-Mom's House, Dad's House
- Divorce Poision
- Raising Boys (actually deals a lot w/ boys in seperated households)

I found all of them on Amazon.

Good luck, and keep your head up. Get yourself into counseling to unload somewhere safe, and keep doing what you know to be best for your kids.

[wysiwyg]

I had to offer my 2 cents here.  The advice above is great with one small exception, and just solely my opinion.  

The book "Joint Custody with a Jerk" - Ayone who starts off with "jerk" in a divorce situation, is already judgemental and not open to what their role in the divorce is and assumes that the other parent is less of a parent than they are and does not offer any vlaue to the child.

The reviews I read on Amazon were not raving.  I did however find this "For a healthier view of post-divorce parenting, see "Mom's House, Dad's House," "The Custody Revolution: the Father Factor and the Motherhood Mystique," and "Children of Divorce: a Developmental Approach to Residence and Visitation."

Mabe the these books with be of some benefit and give a better balanced view on helping the child and not focus on what a jerk the other parent is.  

Just my 2 cents.  

[CGS]

I thought the same thing as you when a friend suggested I buy the book.  I finally bought it anyway, and it was anything but what I had expected.

It is geared towards parents who deal with another parent who is intent on putting themselves before the children, and how to learn to deal with them without being pulled into their negativity.

It was very helpful to me as my x spends entirely too much time dreaming up ways to harass, annoy, or otherwise 'stick it to me'.  This book helped me tremendoulsy in navigating a conversation w/ my x to still accomplish a meaningful coversation without letting their antics phase me.. i highly reccomend it even though the title is inflamatory.

[lucky]

You want to hear something weird??

Dh, his ex and I were all court ordered to co-parenting classes (yes, the judge named me specifically with them).  Dh and I took them, pbfh did not (she couldn't afford them even though there was a sliding fee scale and she wouldn't have had to pay anything).

While there, I heard a number of stories that were remarkably similar to what dh and I were living with his pbfh (yes, she is!).

The teachers recommended to those people that they read "Joint Custody with a Jerk" to assist them in learning how to deal with the other parent.

These were people who had taught this class for many, many years and one of them had actually been through a nasty divorce and custody battle and used what he taught to help him through it.

I never read it, never got around to getting the book and we're down to a little over 2 years and pbfh has calmed down.  I think it's because the two older kids are 18 or over and have basically told her to f-off and the remaining minor hasn't taken her crap EVER.  She's got nothing to gain anymore because ysd told her years ago that she would NEVER live with pbfh under any circumstances.  Although, as you can probably guess due to the tone of my post, she managed to piss me off again.

[em]Lucky

Lead your life so you wouldn't be ashamed to sell the family parrot to the town gossip.
- Will Rogers[em]

[topnotchdad]

We have had 50/50 shared custody since SD was 2 years old, and here are my 2 cents' worth:

 I don't think the children are
>responding well to this schedule. They seem to be clingy when
>they are with me. My daughter has begun to cry when I drop her
>off at school or leave her with anyone (before she didn't). My
>son is the same way, now he is having problems going to be on
>his own. He screams and fights me (Body rigid). I don't want
>to just put him in his crib bc I don't want him to see me
>walking away from him.


Perhaps the kids are clingy with you b/c they are responding to your emotions.  If they see you are down or depressed or lonely, this may be why they don't want to leave you.  You may have to "toughen up" for the sake of your kids.

Our BM complained of the exact same problem with SD.  She told the Dr that SD has trouble sleeping at her home, and that BM "has no choice but to sleep in bed with SD."  But SD has never had any problems getting to sleep at our house....we tuck her in, tell her to stay in bed, and that's that.  Dr. advised BM that the problem lies in SD playing on BM's weaknesses.



 I have our daughter call and say good
>night to her father and older half-sister when I have the
>children, but doesn't have her call me. So I have decided to
>call myself to talk with her but she refuses to come to the
>phone, whining or crying that she doens't want to. So I call
>her at daycare instead and she comes to the phone just fine
>and talks with me for a few minutes.

This could also be the kids feeding off of whatever emotion the parent they're with is displaying.  Make sure when you call that your conversations are upbeat and happy.  Don't tell them how much you miss them....that will only make them feel sad that you're alone.  

We had similar problems w/SD.  She would be fine at our house, and when BM would call, SD would get all sad and weepy.  Then BM tried to get custody taken away b/c of these sad phone calls.  But when we started "listening in" by putting her on speakerphone, we realized that BM would call and immediately start crying and telling SD how much she missed her, and how lonely she was at home without her.

Also, SD is not a big "phone talker."  We realize this, so we make our conversations with her very short.  "How was your day?  Anything special?  Okay, love you.  Bye"  

 I know that my husband
>knows the importance of consistency and that trying to make
>our homes similar, in regards to schedules, bedtimes, etc,
>will help the kids adjust; but he refuses and just says that
>he'll have his rules at his house and vice versa. I hate how
>this is upseting the kids. I tried to suggest to him that we
>can do 50/50 when the children are older and can cognitively
>understand week here and week there. I am afraid that every
>time the kids go, they don't understand that they are coming
>back.

I think they probably do.  Kids are smarter than you give them credit for.  When you drop them off at daycare, they know you're coming back for them, right?  If you really are struggling with week by week, you could try going Sun-Tues and every other Weds at your house, then every other Weds-Sat at Dad's house.  We did that for awhile when both me and BF had to work weekends, so we couldn't keep SD on weekends.  If weekends are important to both of you, you can make Saturday the day that gets traded every other week.

 My husband got into an agruement with me on the phone
>and he was screaming at me that I am nothing to his daughter
>(my step-daugher, the one I raised for the last 8 years of her
>life).

During the custody hearing, you could try to get joint custody and/or visitation of your SD.  The court may find it's in her best interests to stay with the parenting situation she's grown up with--you being her mother figure--and to keep all the siblings together.

I hung up after he screamed that over and over bc I
>didn't want our children to hear him talking to me like that.
>There is a zillion other petty things that I am sure all of
>you have been through. Why doesn't my daughter want to call me
>on the phone when she is over there? I worry that he (and his
>family bc he lives with his mom and dad) are bad-mouthing me
>or something.

Again, my SD RARELY asks to call her mom while she's with us.  Usually if she does, it's b/c we just did something really cool and she wants to tell her mom about it.


I'm sure its hard for you and hard for the kids.  I think you should get some counseling, so you can clear up any "issues" you have with your own emotions so you can start helping the kids with theirs.

[Mamacass]

I think you should really try to make the 50/50 work.  Honestly, when both parents are working together and providing a stable household, this is the best arrangement for he child.  Or at least it was for us (we have had to change it because of BM's instability and issues.)

We also dealt with SS being upset on the phone when speaking w/ BM.  He would be smiling and happy before he got on the phone.  Then all of a sudden the sad whiny voice "I miss you so much" came out once he got on the phone.  His whole demeanor changed when he was on the phone, and he sounded so depressed.  As soon as he was off the phone though- back to the smiling happy kid he was before the call.  

We also encourage SS to call his mom (as well as she usually calls every other day).  Now that we have SS most of the time, we don't usually call him when he's with BM.  We find that unless reminded, he normally is so busy he doesn't think about calling the parent he isn't with.  Don't worry that she doesn't call you, this doesn't mean that she doesn't love you or need you in her life. Kids get busy, and sometimes out of sight really is out of mind.  If you miss them call them, but don't make them feel that they can't go a day with out talking to you.  And don't keep them on the phone for hours, they need to spend time living at dad's house, not sitting on the phone the whole time with mom.  


In the beginning SS also did freak out whenever DH dropped him off and woud even freak out when with DH if he walked out of the room.  However, he was a year old at the time, and wasn't seing DH on a regular basis yet, so when DH dropped him off, SS wasn't sure when he would see his daddy again.  Once we were able to work out a regular 50/50 schedule, everything was much better.  Remeber though, its taking time for you to adjust to not seeing the kids everyday, and it is also taking them time to adjust to going back and forth between houses.  

As far as sleeping habits, SS slept fine at our house, but at his mom's he wouldn't sleep with out her putting a movie on for him.  Actually, most nights he didn't sleep until the movie was over.  When we found out about this (from SS's teacher because he was so tired at school) we talked to SS about it and he agreed to sleep without the TV at BM's house.  SS knew he could insist on a movie and his mom would give in, but he knew that wasn't allowed at our house, so he didn't try it.  

I don't want to sound like I'm harping on you, but do keep your emotions in check when around your children.  It is hard enough for them to be split between households.  The last thing they need is to feel guilty over leaving you and spending some time with their dad.  

Our SS struggles with this.  His mom gave him a photo album filled with pictures of her and her family when we got custody.  I thought that was sweet.  However, she also included a poem for him that talks about how all the struggles and pain that she has dealt with in her life are worth it when SS smiles at her.  She has also told me that SS is her "buddy" and has been with her through everything.  She wrote him a letter saying "I'll pay any price and travel any distance to make sure we can be happy again."  I don't think she realizes that SS can be happy even if he isn't with her 24/7.  This is a lot of pressure on my SS.  Luckily, he is in counseling to help him deal with this.  

I'm sure that your ex may be putting some of his feelings on the kids too (even if its not on purpose).  This may explain why you can talk to your kid at daycare and they sound fine, but not when they are at dad's house.  If they can tell that dad is irritated when they talk to you, they may not want to hurt his feelings by getting on the phone.  You both need to make sure you are encouring the kids to have a strong heathy relationship with the other parent.  Its hard not to let your emotions show when you are around the kids, and they pick up on a lot more than you realize.  

I understand you wanting to spend time with your SD, and I definitely agree that you should seek some type of visitation.  It may take your ex a little time to adjust to the idea, but hopefully he'll be accepting.  Its what's best for the kids afterall that is really important.

I fully agree with you hanging up or ending conversations when DH is yelling/cursing/demeaning you in front of the kids.  THey don't need to hear this, and it does not show them a healthy way to communicate.  This is something you should bring up with DH when he is calm, and explain to him that it is not ok for him to talk to you like this.  

Just keep making decisions off of what is best for the kids.  Its hard not to be a little selfish, and its hard not to want to "punish" the other parent when they are being unreasonable.  Honestly, I still struggle with this at times and am so thankful that DH is able to make decisions that are best for SS.  This is a big adjustment time for you, your ex and the kids.  It's gonna take time to make this feel like "normal".  

[Kitty C.]

I would also add that this situation is still fairly new and you really have to give it some time to get into a rhythm and flow.  It certainly is an upheaval compared to what they were used to with you both being home, so I would actually give it at least 6 months and see how they are doing at that point.  But regardless, 50/50 is the best possible scenario to guarantee equal contact with both parents.

My 17 y.o. DS recently told me that he felt I hid my emotions well.  I told him it came from years of practice, but I didn't say why.  As tense as some situations were when he was little and dealing with cross-country visitation, there was no way I was going to let him know how I was feeling.  He always got on the plane excited about going to see his dad and family in CA for the long summer.  Now, AFTER the plane took off, I'd be standing there bawling my head off!

What was way cool was our 'game' we played when he came home, Mom the Bowling Pin.  He was always last off with an escort, he'd see me crouched down ready to catch him and he'd go full tilt into my arms!  The flight attendant's request for my ID was just a formality, LOL!

[Jade]

If I were in your shoes, given your children's ages, I would not agree to 50/50 physical custody.  It simply does not provide enough stability for that age group.  I would definitely fight for what is right for your children.  You know them better than anyone on this board.  I would also document every single time that he yells at you.  Good luck.

[MixedBag]

helped me to pick and choose my battles as the saying goes with someone who "hides" behind the phrase "best interest of our son"

[FatherTime]

How many married parents just drop the kids off at daycare and pick them up for dinner and bedtime? (no need to answer) Our society has changed, and old fashioned ideas are antiquated.  It takes two incomes for many households to make ends meet now days.  Many children are being sidelined.  For many children the real primary care giver (not care taker) is a day care provider.  The children have adapted (sadly).

I wouldn't have every other week 50/50 with this age group, but 50/50 is what both parents seem to want for the children.  There are other 50/50 schedules that would fit this age group.  In this type of situation both care Givers love the children immensely.  No parents sidelined either.

I picked up a gender bias vibe in your response.  Your male too.

" I would also document every single time that he yells at you. "

Your suggestions appear to antagonize the situation, rather than harmonizing, or improving the situation.

Just my half cent worth of blather.

[Jade]

>How many married parents just drop the kids off at daycare
>and pick them up for dinner and bedtime? (no need to answer)
>Our society has changed, and old fashioned ideas are
>antiquated.  It takes two incomes for many households to make
>ends meet now days.  Many children are being sidelined.  For
>many children the real primary care giver (not care taker) is
>a day care provider.  The children have adapted (sadly).

It's been a year since I had to put my now 5 & 7 year old in daycare (the 5 year old) and before and after care (the 7 year old).  They are not having an easy time being away from me all day.  My 5 year old is having a hard time with the EOW.  I have been their primary caregiver since the day they were born.  I know that it is a hard concept to grasp that small children are more comfortable with the primary caregiver, even if they are in daycare.  But that doesn't change the fact that they are.  I have worked with children long enough to know that.


>
>I wouldn't have every other week 50/50 with this age group,
>but 50/50 is what both parents seem to want for the children.
>There are other 50/50 schedules that would fit this age group.
> In this type of situation both care Givers love the children
>immensely.  No parents sidelined either.
>
>I picked up a gender bias vibe in your response.  Your male
>too.
>

First, it's what the father wants, the mother clearly stated that she has reservations.  And the children, from what the original poster stated, are having a hard time with it.  And given their ages, I am not surprised at all.

A gender bias?  I don't think so.  I believe very firmly that it is the primary caregiver who should get primary custody of small children.  Even if the primary caregiver is the father.  And have stated that clearly on other message boards in this forum.  In fact, I even told a father who is the primary caregiver to fight for primary custody of his daughter.  

Are you saying that I am a male?  If so, you may want to reread my screenname.



>" I would also document every single time that he yells at
>you. "
>
>Your suggestions appear to antagonize the situation, rather
>than harmonizing, or improving the situation.
>
>Just my half cent worth of blather.
>
>

Yelling is a form of intimidation and abuse and won't stop unless there are consequences.  Yelling is not good for the children.  My son, when he was under 2, ran away in fear from his father when he got home from work because my ex yelled so much at him.  I tried telling him that it wasn't good to yell like that.  It took our son running in fear from him to get the message across.  Unfortunately, the message didn't stick.  

If he is yelling, she needs to document it.  Period.  Because if he does it all of the time, the judge just may order him into anger management classes.  And THAT will do more to harmonize and improve the situation than the stbx's yelling does.  

[FatherTime]

     I know that it is a hard concept to grasp that small
    children are more comfortable with the primary caregiver, even
    if they are in daycare.  But that doesn't change the fact that
    they are.  I have worked with children long enough to know
    that.

Comfortable. Comfy. Cozy. not equal...shhh

-----------------------------------
>First, it's what the father wants, the mother clearly stated
>that she has reservations.  And the children, from what the
>original poster stated, are having a hard time with it.  And
>given their ages, I am not surprised at all.
>
>A gender bias?  I don't think so.  I believe very firmly that
>it is the primary caregiver who should get primary custody of
>small children.  Even if the primary caregiver is the father.
>And have stated that clearly on other message boards in this
>forum.  In fact, I even told a father who is the primary
>caregiver to fight for primary custody of his daughter.  

OK.

---------------------------------------------
>Are you saying that I am a male?  If so, you may want to
>reread my screenname.

I clicked on your name for information about you.  It definitely says gender -- male. I know it's a feminine name, but it's a username and can be in honor of someone, not necessarily someone's personal name.


>Yelling is a form of intimidation and abuse and won't stop
>unless there are consequences.  Yelling is not good for the
>children.  

Has anyone seen a judge or commissioner yell in court?  Anyone? Anyone? (judge judy?...others are aplenty.)

Yelling CAN be a form of intimidation and abuse. Yelling is not necessarily a form of intimidation and abuse.  Documenting every time someone yells is crazy and somewhat petty.  It's the subject matter and tone that are to be documented.  Sometimes when someone yells, no matter how hard they try, it seems nobody is listening, especially children.


>If he is yelling, she needs to document it.  Period.  Because
>if he does it all of the time, the judge just may order him
>into anger management classes.  And THAT will do more to
>harmonize and improve the situation than the stbx's yelling
>does.  

I know.... document....document....document.

It's

FatherTime

[Jade]

>     I know that it is a hard concept to grasp that small
>    children are more comfortable with the primary caregiver,
>even
>    if they are in daycare.  But that doesn't change the fact
>that
>    they are.  I have worked with children long enough to
>know
>    that.
>
>Comfortable. Comfy. Cozy. not equal...shhh

Whoever said parenting is equal?  Even when a couple is married, it isn't equal.  When I was married, I was a stay at home mom.  My ex worked.  I spent more time parenting than he did when we were together.  Even now, with my working full-time, I still spend more time parenting than he does.  

I understand that you are more interested in forcing shared physical custody on small children even if it isn't in their best interests, that doesn't change the fact that it isn't in their best interests.  Fortunately for my children, their father and I recognize that it wasn't about what was best for us but what was best for them.


>
>-----------------------------------
>>First, it's what the father wants, the mother clearly stated
>>that she has reservations.  And the children, from what the
>>original poster stated, are having a hard time with it.  And
>>given their ages, I am not surprised at all.
>>
>>A gender bias?  I don't think so.  I believe very firmly
>that
>>it is the primary caregiver who should get primary custody
>of
>>small children.  Even if the primary caregiver is the father.
>
>>And have stated that clearly on other message boards in this
>>forum.  In fact, I even told a father who is the primary
>>caregiver to fight for primary custody of his daughter.  
>
>OK.
>
>---------------------------------------------
>>Are you saying that I am a male?  If so, you may want to
>>reread my screenname.
>
>I clicked on your name for information about you.  It
>definitely says gender -- male. I know it's a feminine
>name, but it's a username and can be in honor of someone, not
>necessarily someone's personal name.
>

I have no idea why it says male.  I did not fill out anything to do with gender.  The last time I checked, I am not male.  And even if I were male, doesn't mean that I have to believe that shared physical custody for small children is in their best interests.

>
>>Yelling is a form of intimidation and abuse and won't stop
>>unless there are consequences.  Yelling is not good for the
>>children.  
>
>Has anyone seen a judge or commissioner yell in court?
>Anyone? Anyone? (judge judy?...others are aplenty.)

Try it in an actual courtroom and see how far you get.  My ex almost got thrown out of the courthouse because of his yelling.

>
>Yelling CAN be a form of intimidation and abuse. Yelling is
>not necessarily a form of intimidation and abuse.  Documenting
>every time someone yells is crazy and somewhat petty.  It's
>the subject matter and tone that are to be documented.
>Sometimes when someone yells, no matter how hard they try, it
>seems nobody is listening, especially children.
>


>
>>If he is yelling, she needs to document it.  Period.
>Because
>>if he does it all of the time, the judge just may order him
>>into anger management classes.  And THAT will do more to
>>harmonize and improve the situation than the stbx's yelling
>>does.  
>
>I know.... document....document....document.
>
>It's
>
>FatherTime
>
>

[FatherTime]

>Whoever said parenting is equal?  Even when a couple is
>married, it isn't equal.  ...

 Whoever said that parenting isn't equal or shouldn't be equal?  In your case it wasn't equal, and that worked out great for you, but is it best for all?  

I believe that sharing custody equally will not only improve a child's well being, it will also teach our children that sexism and gender discrimination are not an integral part of our society.  In my state and county (and many others), the children are learning that one parent is more important that the other.  You don't think that the children see the discrimination in their own classrooms, other students with mommy centered households.  What message do you think is sent to the children?  They do see the inequality in time, in fact, they live it.  Limited time with Dads, courtroom approved.

>I understand that you are more interested in forcing shared
>physical custody on small children even if it isn't in their
>best interests, that doesn't change the fact that it isn't in
>their best interests.  
 
Forcing one parent to every other weekend and essentially cutting out one parent, even if it isn't in their best interests is your stance then?  
Equality need only apply when it fits your needs?  btw... children are resilient, they can live with shared parenting.  Nice statement to make it appear that I want to "force" anything onto a small child.  It almost makes me sound like a child batterer or abusive of small children.  Effective in custody court too.  You don't actually say it, but implied.

>Try it in an actual courtroom and see how far you get.  My ex
>almost got thrown out of the courthouse because of his
>yelling.
>

I did yell in a courtroom.  I yelled "fraud", and you are correct it got me nowhere.  They still turn a blind eye.  

But here is the question that I presented.

Is a judge or commissioner abusive and intimidating when he/she yells in a courtroom?  Does that judge or commissioner need anger management?  What should be the consequences if a judge / commissioner yells in court?

Here are some links on the "Tender Years Doctrine" :

http://www.answers.com/topic/tender-years-doctrine

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3757/is_200412/ai_n9471546

Here's one with your view...
http://www.grad.berkeley.edu/deans/mason/bookscutody.shtml

I think that this quote from the last link sums up your stance:

  "The tender years doctrine was never a mothers' right; it was a child-centered rule. It forced the courts to move away from treating children as a property right of their fathers to focusing on the child's need for nurture. "
------
Nurture is most likely a keyword for mother, since most people see the mother figure as more nurturing.  

Which parent is more nurturing, the parent with every other weekend, or the parent with the vast majority of the parenting time?

Most of the time, I'm pretty sure that it's not,

FatherTime

[Jade]

>>Whoever said parenting is equal?  Even when a couple is
>>married, it isn't equal.  ...
>
> Whoever said that parenting isn't equal or shouldn't be
>equal?  In your case it wasn't equal, and that worked out
>great for you, but is it best for all?  
>
>I believe that sharing custody equally will not only
>improve a child's well being, it will also teach our children
>that sexism and gender discrimination are not an integral part
>of our society.  In my state and county (and many others), the
>children are learning that one parent is more important that
>the other.  You don't think that the children see the
>discrimination in their own classrooms, other students with
>mommy centered households.  What message do you think is sent
>to the children?  They do see the inequality in time, in fact,
>they live it.  Limited time with Dads, courtroom approved.
>
>


My experience with small children doesn't back up what you are saying.  



>>I understand that you are more interested in forcing shared
>>physical custody on small children even if it isn't in their
>>best interests, that doesn't change the fact that it isn't
>in
>>their best interests.  
>
>Forcing one parent to every other weekend and essentially
>cutting out one parent, even if it isn't in their best
>interests is your stance then?  
>Equality need only apply when it fits your needs?  btw...
>children are resilient, they can live with shared parenting.
>Nice statement to make it appear that I want to "force"
>anything onto a small child.  It almost makes me sound like a
>child batterer or abusive of small children.  Effective in
>custody court too.  You don't actually say it, but implied.
>
>


Forcing a child who isn't ready to be away from the primary caregiver 50% of the time is detrimental to the small child's well-being.  As the child gets older and more mature, the parenting time can be revisited.  

BTW, I didn't imply anything.  If you read anything into what I wrote other than what I wrote, that is on you.  And maybe you should think really hard why you would read something other than what was written.  

Oh, and the statement that children are resilient and can live with shared parenting really should be changed to:

SOME older children are resilient and can live with shared parenting.  SOME older children can't.   My ex and I know OUR children well enough to know that shared physical parenting would NOT work for them.  

Small children need more stability than 50/50 shared physical custody provides.  

Children are individuals, much like adults are.  



>>Try it in an actual courtroom and see how far you get.  My
>ex
>>almost got thrown out of the courthouse because of his
>>yelling.
>>
>
>I did yell in a courtroom.  I yelled "fraud", and you are
>correct it got me nowhere.  They still turn a blind eye.  
>

Maybe in your case.  The grounds for my divorce are extreme cruelty.  All my ex did was prove my grounds.


>But here is the question that I presented.
>
>Is a judge or commissioner abusive and intimidating when
>he/she yells in a courtroom?  Does that judge or commissioner
>need anger management?  What should be the consequences if a
>judge / commissioner yells in court?
>
Personally, if the judge were to have done that during my court case, I would file a complaint about him/her afterwards.  That is unprofessional and unacceptable behavior from anyone.


>Here are some links on the "Tender Years Doctrine" :
>
>http://www.answers.com/topic/tender-years-doctrine
>
>http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3757/is_200412/ai_n9471546
>
>Here's one with your view...
>http://www.grad.berkeley.edu/deans/mason/bookscutody.shtml
>
>I think that this quote from the last link sums up your
>stance:
>
>  "The tender years doctrine was never a mothers' right; it
>was a child-centered rule. It forced the courts to move away
>from treating children as a property right of their fathers to
>focusing on the child's need for nurture. "
>------
>Nurture is most likely a keyword for mother, since most people
>see the mother figure as more nurturing.  

I don't recall saying that a father can't be nurturing.  What I do recall saying is that 50/50 physical custody for small children isn't good for them.  I also recall saying that the primary caregiver should be the one who has primary physical custody of small children.  I don't care if the primary caregiver was the father or the mother.  It's about providing as much stability and as little change as possible in small children who have had their world turned upside down due to their parents divorcing.

>
>Which parent is more nurturing, the parent with every other
>weekend, or the parent with the vast majority of the parenting
>time?
>
>Most of the time, I'm pretty sure that it's not,
>
The parent that is more nurturing depends on the parent's personality.  I happen to be the one who is more nurturing.  Doesn't make my ex a bad father.  And the parent who is more nurturing may not necessarily be the primary parent.  But then, that isn't why 50/50 shared physical custody in small children is not good for them.  

>FatherTime

[FatherTime]

>>>Whoever said parenting is equal?  Even when a couple is
>>>married, it isn't equal.  ...

Me:

>> Whoever said that parenting isn't equal or shouldn't be
>>equal?  In your case it wasn't equal, and that worked out
>>great for you, but is it best for all?  
>>
>>I believe that sharing custody equally will not only
>>improve a child's well being, it will also teach our
>children
>>that sexism and gender discrimination are not an integral
>part
>>of our society.  In my state and county (and many others),
>the
>>children are learning that one parent is more important that
>>the other.  You don't think that the children see the
>>discrimination in their own classrooms, other students with
>>mommy centered households.  What message do you think is
>sent
>>to the children?  They do see the inequality in time, in
>fact,
>>they live it.  Limited time with Dads, courtroom approved.

You:
>My experience with small children doesn't back up what you are
>saying.  

Therefore, it must be wrong.


>Forcing a child who isn't ready to be away from the primary
>caregiver 50% of the time is detrimental to the small child's
>well-being.  As the child gets older and more mature, the
>parenting time can be revisited.  
>
>BTW, I didn't imply anything.  If you read anything into what
>I wrote other than what I wrote, that is on you.  And maybe
>you should think really hard why you would read something
>other than what was written.  
>

Forcing a child who is ready for both parents to be away from the SECONDARY parent is not detrimental to the SMALL child's well-being?

 If it is detrimental to the SMALL child's well-being, then it's accepted by the courts.

It's not what I read as much as how I was beginning to be portrayed.  You say "FORCING A YOUNG CHILD"  and I only want to ALLOW a child to be an active participant in both of his/her parents' lives EQUALLY.


>Oh, and the statement that children are resilient and can live
>with shared parenting really should be changed to:
>
>SOME older children are resilient and can live with shared
>parenting.  SOME older children can't.   My ex and I know OUR
>children well enough to know that shared physical parenting
>would NOT work for them.  
>
>Small children need more stability than 50/50 shared physical
>custody provides.  
>
>Children are individuals, much like adults are.  

I'm confused here.  So, my statement that children are resilient and that they can live with shared parenting is wrong?  I did not say ALL children, children in general.  Why is SOME "OLDER" children a better statement?  Because, it is YOUR point of view?  Of course, in family law there are various extenuating circumstances.  Some children have special needs.  

  What if some people perceive that 50/50 parenting provides children MORE STABILITY, at any age?  The odds could be perceived as twice as strong, twice the support, twice the care.  Twice the love.  

Scenario:  A young child has a strong Custodial parent and step-parent, as well as a sidelined non-custodial parent.  This young child, who evidently isn't very resilient, is unfortunately left without the Custodial parent because of an unfortunate death.  There is another young child who has two (2) loving and caring parents who equally share and participate in his/her life.  But again, unfortunately, one of these parents passes away.  

Which child would most likely be more stable after the loss of their corresponding biological parent?


You stated that: "Children are individuals, much like adults are."
  I didn't realize that.  Adults are resilient.  


>>But here is the question that I presented.
>>
>>Is a judge or commissioner abusive and intimidating when
>>he/she yells in a courtroom?  Does that judge or
>commissioner
>>need anger management?  What should be the consequences if a
>>judge / commissioner yells in court?


>Personally, if the judge were to have done that during my
>court case, I would file a complaint about him/her afterwards.
> That is unprofessional and unacceptable behavior from anyone.

http://www.judgejudy.com/home/home.asp

sigh...

[Jade]

>>>>Whoever said parenting is equal?  Even when a couple is
>>>>married, it isn't equal.  ...
>
>Me:
>
>>> Whoever said that parenting isn't equal or shouldn't be
>>>equal?  In your case it wasn't equal, and that worked out
>>>great for you, but is it best for all?  
>>>
>>>I believe that sharing custody equally will not only
>>>improve a child's well being, it will also teach our
>>children
>>>that sexism and gender discrimination are not an integral
>>part
>>>of our society.  In my state and county (and many others),
>>the
>>>children are learning that one parent is more important
>that
>>>the other.  You don't think that the children see the
>>>discrimination in their own classrooms, other students with
>>>mommy centered households.  What message do you think is
>>sent
>>>to the children?  They do see the inequality in time, in
>>fact,
>>>they live it.  Limited time with Dads, courtroom approved.
>
>You:
>>My experience with small children doesn't back up what you
>are
>>saying.  
>
>Therefore, it must be wrong.

Why?  Because it doesn't back up what you claim?  
>
>
>>Forcing a child who isn't ready to be away from the primary
>>caregiver 50% of the time is detrimental to the small
>child's
>>well-being.  As the child gets older and more mature, the
>>parenting time can be revisited.  
>>
>>BTW, I didn't imply anything.  If you read anything into
>what
>>I wrote other than what I wrote, that is on you.  And maybe
>>you should think really hard why you would read something
>>other than what was written.  
>>
>
>Forcing a child who is ready for both parents to be away
>from the SECONDARY parent is not detrimental to the SMALL
>child's well-being?
>
> If it is detrimental to the SMALL child's well-being, then
>it's accepted by the courts.
>
>It's not what I read as much as how I was beginning to be
>portrayed.  You say "FORCING A YOUNG CHILD"  and I only want
>to ALLOW a child to be an active participant in both of
>his/her parents' lives EQUALLY.
>
>
>>Oh, and the statement that children are resilient and can
>live
>>with shared parenting really should be changed to:
>>
>>SOME older children are resilient and can live with shared
>>parenting.  SOME older children can't.   My ex and I know
>OUR
>>children well enough to know that shared physical parenting
>>would NOT work for them.  
>>
>>Small children need more stability than 50/50 shared
>physical
>>custody provides.  
>>
>>Children are individuals, much like adults are.  
>
>I'm confused here.  So, my statement that children are
>resilient and that they can live with shared parenting is
>wrong?  I did not say ALL children, children in general.  Why
>is SOME "OLDER" children a better statement?  Because, it is
>YOUR point of view?  Of course, in family law there are
>various extenuating circumstances.  Some children have special
>needs.  
>
>  What if some people perceive that 50/50 parenting provides
>children MORE STABILITY, at any age?  The odds could be
>perceived as twice as strong, twice the support, twice the
>care.  Twice the love.  
>
>Scenario:  A young child has a strong Custodial parent
>and step-parent, as well as a sidelined non-custodial parent.
>This young child, who evidently isn't very resilient, is
>unfortunately left without the Custodial parent because of an
>unfortunate death.  There is another young child who has two
>(2) loving and caring parents who equally share and
>participate in his/her life.  But again, unfortunately, one of
>these parents passes away.  
>
>Which child would most likely be more stable after the loss
>of their corresponding biological parent?
>
>
>You stated that: "Children are individuals, much like adults
>are."
>  I didn't realize that.  Adults are resilient.  
>
>
>>>But here is the question that I presented.
>>>
>>>Is a judge or commissioner abusive and intimidating when
>>>he/she yells in a courtroom?  Does that judge or
>>commissioner
>>>need anger management?  What should be the consequences if
>a
>>>judge / commissioner yells in court?
>
>
>>Personally, if the judge were to have done that during my
>>court case, I would file a complaint about him/her
>afterwards.
>> That is unprofessional and unacceptable behavior from
>anyone.
>
>http://www.judgejudy.com/home/home.asp
>
>sigh...


I have to agree with your subject.  This is clearly a waste of time.  You aren't going to change my mind and I am not going to change yours.  

[FatherTime]

:-)