Should I Force Daughter to Discuss Female Issues with Dad?

[iceclimber]

Our 11 year old daughter has a physical coming up. i told dad that for this particular appointment i would like to take our daughter to it as she and i had some questions for the doctor (private female issues).

he has now demanded that i get our daughter to share these things with him.

even if we were still married, these are things i would not be discussing with him.

she was uncomfortable when he made the subject of her wearing a bra an issue and has expressed that she does not wish to discuss these issues with him or in his presence.

the doctor has mentioned it is about time for the hpv shot. and i would like for our daughter to have an opportunity to discuss it with her doctor first. this does not mean that i would make the decision without her dad's involvement to let her get the shot.

what do you think?

[Davy]

What do I think ??

I think your post and the subject matter is a reflection on your apparent manipulative and controlling ways and unfortunately your sickness is being transferred to your daughter.

[Kitty C.]

If dad wants to be involved, then tell him he has to come to the appt.  Then you can have the MD tell him why he should NOT be forcing his pre-teen daughter to talk to him about things that are embarassing for her in the first place.  Obviously he hasn't been open enough with her to this point that she feels comfortable enough going to him about things like this.  And the surest way for him to push her away is to 'demand' that she discuss all of this with him.  If you know anything about teenagers, the more you want them to talk, the more they clam up.

If he's so interested in her health, he should be going to the medical appts. anyway, not relying on his daughter to tell him everything.

One other thing.........make sure that you are in the discussion about the HPV vaccine.  At 11 years old, everything that's going on in her body is confusing enough, without adding the concern of whether she should get a vaccine.  She will most likely defer to you as to whether she should get it or not.  One thing to remember...you will or may have already heard the pros and cons about the vaccine.  Weigh the risks against the advantages and discuss this thoroughly with the MD.  Also, this vaccine does NOT prevent all cervical cancers, only ones caused by certain primary strains of HPV.  And this does NOT negate the neccesity of having yearly exams and paps.

And if I can make a suggestion.........  When my son was born, I left the decision to circumcise up to his dad.  I never gave him my opinion about it one way or the other.  When he asked me why I was deferring completely to him about this issue, I told him that I, as a female, cannot possibly know whether it should or shouldn't be done, as I obviously don't have that anatomy.  Get the idea?  If your ex has an opinion about this, certainly listen, but also try to explain to him that, with it being a strictly female issue, the final decision should be made between the MD, your daughter, and you, whether you agree with his opinion or not.  I know that I may very well get lambasted here for this kind of thinking, but this is one issue that certainly separates us, IMO.

I've been through 3 abnormal paps and the procedures that follow...I wish that this vaccine had been around 20-25 years ago and maybe I wouldn't have had to go through all the stress of that.  

[Kitty C.]

I know that both you and I have pretty strong feelings about these kinds of issues, but really think about this.

Personally, if this had been me and my father demanded that I talk to him about these issues, I would have told him to go to he!!.  A father having an open relationship with his daughter that makes her comfortable enough and willingly come to him to discuss these issues with him is one thing.  For a father to 'demand' that she talk to him about it, is a whole other matter.  I could see this causing serious psychological harm to her, not to mention driving a self-inflicted wedge between father and daughter.

[Davy]

Kitty;  I completely understand and agree full heartfully with your response especially as it relates to the father-daughter relationship.  

My response and issue is clearly with the mother's unwillingness to communicate with the father as it relates to the health of the daughter...

it's reasonable to inquire why the boys aren't mature enough to go watch 'the coveted film' and why  you have to crawl under the house and dig up (again) the bathroom plumbing (3 sisters) or why your oldest little sister is in the doctor's exam room screaming over a tipped uterus ... no problem
 
and when some young women burn their bras on the state house steps while 'Oh Ruby' plays on the radio ... I have a little problem

Roll forward a number of years and ask why your fully insured daughter is not receiving the necessary medical or emotional care UNLESS THE MOTHER CALLS while the local womens club is at school getting some attractive female teacher show your pre-teen son how to put a condom on a banana ... I HAVE A HUGE PROBLEM ..let me repeat A HUGE PROBLEM

If ya'll dont have a huge problem then there is something seriously wrong with ya'll not me... hope you completely understand and agree full heartly.  

[Kitty C.]

.....the dad HAS and IS involved in the child's care.  That's why I can't understand where you're coming from.  It just seems whako to me that this father, who appears to be involved and sounds like he's taken his daughter to previous appts., would make such demands from his daughter now.  And if it's only to get back at the mom for wanting to take the daughter to this ONE appt., then the only person hurt by this retribution is the child.

I agree and it IS only the father-daughter relationship I was alluding to.  It's always possible that, a few years down the road, the daughter may feel comfortable enough to talk to her dad about these issues, but only in an open and accepting relationship.  Never demanding.  But she's ONLY 11 now.  

I may have been a late bloomer, but my mom was at work and Dad was home when I 'started' and it scared the bejeebers out of me.  I technically knew what to do, but it scared me to death to think about trying to explain to him why I was frantically going thru her vanity.  I can look back now and laugh and, of course, my dad understood immediately without my having to explain myself, but when you're that young, it's just plain scary.  I just think the dad is being a complete idiot for asking/demanding something like that of his 11 y.o. daughter.  And if he has ulterior motives for his actions, then shame on him.

[Davy]

I hope to politely but adamantly encourage communication with both parents concerning this child's health.  It may be critical to the child in years to come.  There is no better time than the present to begin that communication

Look, I don't like the use of the word 'force' in relation to an 11 yr old female.  

......................

No matter what she's always been daddy's girl and she knows it.

Sorry if you thought I was offensive..

[Kitty C.]

No offense taken!  :-)

But I think you went off on a tangent, possibly in the direction of what would happen in the future if communication completely broke down?  I don't think that's an issue here, either.  To tell you the truth, it sounds more like a control issue than anything else.  I may be completely off base here, but that's the impression I got.  Dad's upset because all of a sudden he's not included in a particular aspect of his child's care and to get back (IMO, as I see it), he is demanding that the daughter tell him everything that he should have had access to at that appt.  Personally, I don't see why he couldn't go to the appt........if the MD feels it's not appropriate to have Dad in the room, he/she will ask him to step into the waiting room.  In fact, if it's the child's first pelvic exam, they may ask Mom to leave also.  Just as long as there is a nurse or tech also in the room during the exam, there should be no problem with that.  Then they can call back in the parents to discuss the vaccine or whatever.

But the dad needs to understand that his little girl is growing up and he will not ALWAYS be privy to every aspect of her life.  I am (was) an absolute Daddy's girl.....in spades.....and I always trusted him completely, but this was an area that was not breeched between us.  And it's just another reason why I always had so much respect for him...he knew when to step in and when to back off, but always letting me know he was there if I needed him.

The only communication concerns I had were, if Dad were to force the girl to tell him things she's not comfortable with, it 'could' psychologically affect her and she may develop a pattern of shutting down to him.  I think it's a trust issue.  I'm just saying he should be sensitive to her emotional health right now.....she's going thru a LOT of growing up in many ways and really needs to be able to trust both parents.  I just hope the dad doesn't continue down this road, or I feel he could severely damage that.  But that's JMO.........

[Davy]

Oh puke !!  I just have to disagree.  Witholding such info. is a power play and control issue on the mother's part and very poor social conditioning for the child.  
 

[olanna]

Why would your ex expect that you can force your dd to do anything? Wouldn't it be more up to him to say, "dd, are there some things about growing up or some changes you are going through that you would like to share with me?"

Why even have this conversation about force at all?  Or better yet, have Mom tell Dad and then Dad can try to open the door for private conversation.

My Mom told my Dad when I started my period.  I was about 10 years old...and when my Dad mentioned it to me, I was so embarrassed. But I got over it.  I am betting your daughter will, as well.

[Ref]

I wouldn't be comfortable talking to my dad about that stuff. Shoot, it was hard enough talking to my mom.

Why don't you work on your approach a little with this? Keep your daughter out of the middle. She is only 11 and probably wont have any real questions of her own to ask the doctor. Ask her to write down her questions and then you call the doctor and speak with him and get your questions answered without your DD being embarressed. You can even take it a step farther and ask the dad if he has any questions for you to get answered during your call and tell him you would be happy to pass on the information to him.

Just because your DD isn't comfortable discussing these things with her dad, doesn't mean he isn't entitled to the information related to the issues. So the important thing to remember is getting him all the information he wants while avoiding embarrisment to you DD.

Chances are your ex isn't trying to do this because he wants to upset you or your daughter. He probably has a fear that you are going to deminish his role as a father. My DH's importance as a father was completly deminished by SD's BM and I can tell you there are few things more upsetting in the world to deal with.

Make him a part of the discussions, with your DD not there. This should help all involved.

Best wishes,
Ref

[greatdad]

>I wouldn't be comfortable talking to my dad about that stuff.
>Shoot, it was hard enough talking to my mom.
>
>Why don't you work on your approach a little with this? Keep
>your daughter out of the middle. She is only 11 and probably
>wont have any real questions of her own to ask the doctor. Ask
>her to write down her questions and then you call the doctor
>and speak with him and get your questions answered without
>your DD being embarressed. You can even take it a step farther
>and ask the dad if he has any questions for you to get
>answered during your call and tell him you would be happy to
>pass on the information to him.

Betteryet, Dad should go to the appointment and ask the questions first ad then ask the Dr. to be present for a 3 way conversation with his daughter.The Dr can "soften" things if they need it.
>
>Just because your DD isn't comfortable discussing these things
>with her dad, doesn't mean he isn't entitled to the
>information related to the issues. So the important thing to
>remember is getting him all the information he wants while
>avoiding embarrisment to you DD.

Excellent advice, and likely all he wants
>
>Chances are your ex isn't trying to do this because he wants
>to upset you or your daughter. He probably has a fear that you
>are going to deminish his role as a father.

Spot on to the perception
 My DH's importance
>as a father was completly deminished by SD's BM and I can tell
>you there are few things more upsetting in the world to deal
>with.
>So that proved the theory doesn't it

>Make him a part of the discussions, with your DD not there.
>This should help all involved.
Jus keep him in the loop, it will soon take it's own direction.
>  I am having similar issues about ear piercing with my 7 year old, so I went to a shop that does it and my daughter and I sat and watched it be performed on 2 others, then I asked if she was ready. She decided to wait a bit longer. BUT she and I watched together and made the decision together....it was a nice bonding experience.

If more woman would just  ease off a bit and teac us men, some of the "girl" stuff,they may find we are eager learners who will really have much more respect for them afterward.
>Best wishes,
>Ref

[iceclimber]

i have encouraged our daughter to talk with her dad. she is adamant that she does not wish to do so.
as far as giving him information obtained in private conversations with her.... i do not feel comfortable with that.
i make time for regular private chat time with both of our children. and the most important thing to them is that it is confidential.
i have violated that in the past more than once, by discussing these things with dad.
it harmed our relationship for some time.

at this point, the children understand that there will be some things that it is important for me to share with their dad, some things that they will need to talk with him about because they are just as much responsible for the relationship with their father as he is.... and they too have to make that effort.

however, i feel this is a different.

and this is not a 'health' issue. she isn't ill. and i truly feel it would be harmful.

BUT... this is not what this was about for me. and that is totally the point. this is not about dad, this is not about me.

this is about our daughter and encouraging a relationship with her doctor.
her pediatrician is a very good friend. i could just talk with him about these things and not have even mentioned it, but i want D to understand that her doctor is there for her and will maintain confidentiality.
and that if she wants to speak with him privately (without me present), she can do so.
i want this relationship developed now, so that if there is ever a need for medical care that she is afraid to come to us about she will not wait to seek treatment.

[iceclimber]

........

[iceclimber]

because he does not have that type of relationship with her.
i don't doubt that he loves her. i just do not feel that he has laid the foundation for it... so it's not there.

so even though i explained that DD did not wish to talk with him about these things, he feels it is my responsibility to make that happen.

[iceclimber]

we have a 50/50 rotating
the first three years, he was happy that i did it all, but dad has been much more involved lately.
it could be because of the modification for full custody he filed.......
either way more involved is good for the kids.

[Ref]

I come from the other side of the table. I am trying not to get angry or defensive, so forgive me if I get a little out of hand with my response.

This is a medical issue. You are voluntarily looking to have her get a shot that recent news has shown may has serious negative consequences . She may not be ill, but there is a chance that this shot could cause problems. DH should be entitled to any bit of information that he can get.

Your last paragraph is why I started to get upset. You discribe how YOU think she should learn to have a relationship with her doctor. This is how YOU want to parent and it seems that you think you have overriding authority. This is not how you co-parent. If he feels that it is important to understand what is going on with your childs physical being, then he should be entitled to every piece of information he wants, whether it goes along with your plans or not.

Having a conversation with your ex should follow the same guidelines as if you were still married. Imagine if you had a great relationship with the father and you were still together and he said "I really want to know more about how DD is doing. What are her concerns about this shot and how is she feeling about becoming a woman?" Would you turn around and walk away? Would you say that it isn't any of his business? No reasonable person would do that.

If you are reasonable and have any bit of brains you can figure out a way to discuss your daughter's physical changes and other medical issues without betraying a thing. That is a poor excuse.

Sorry to be upset, but your thought process is exactly what I was talking about. You make yourself to be the overrding parent and it is completely unfair to BF.

Good luck
Ref

[iceclimber]

actually... .no i am not looking to get her the shot. dad and i have already talked about the shot and decided to wait.

i do involve him in every decision.

i just don't think she should have to talk with him about her genitalia.

this is ONE appointment.

he doesn't want to talk to me about it. he wants me to get her to talk to him about it.

i can see what you are saying and it really gives me more to think about, but feel some things have been misunderstood.

basically... we will be discussing this with the psychologist. i will go along with her recommendations, since she really knows everyone and everything that is going on verses one blog entry.

i really want us to go a parenting coordinator, but he refuses. i think it would really help reduce conflict and would be a benefit for the children.

[Ref]

Like I said before. I totally agree with your daughter not wanting to talk specifics with her dad about her private bits. I am saying that you comfort BF by talking to him about it as parents. Just like you would if he was your husband.

If you had a little boy and he was having boy puberty issues, would you be ok with not being kept up to date on how he is doing physically? You wouldn't want to know the extreme details, but you probably would want to know about wetdreams so that you can handle it if he had a mysterious need to wash his own sheets in the middle of the night. I am guessing that is the type of stuff that your ex would want to know.

The more you offer to him, the less he will feel the need to go directly to your daughter. Keep conversations open and honest.

Listen, nobody knows who you are here. What are these issues that should be kept from BF? Is it her period? Is it sex?

How about you offer ways to help BF comfortably address these issues with her? Maybe you can suggest a book on female development for preteens that he can give to her and say "if you have any questions I am always here".

I am just throwing out ideas here. To me, the trick is to do two things at the same time. 1. Keep your daughter as comfortable as possible. 2. Enable BF to have all the information you would want to have in his shoes.  It is tricky sometimes. Sometimes you have to think outside of the obvious. It is doable and if you keep those two things as the goal you should be able to get the right answer.

Take care,
Ref

[olanna]

like you are more interested your daughter developing a relationship with her doctor than her dad.  I find that quite odd. No matter how much you may dislike your ex, you need to learn to love your daughter more than you dislike him.

[iceclimber]

incorrect

[Kitty C.]

I think the whole issue is that Dad is trying to force dau. into talking about intimate things with him and she is just not comfortable doing this.  Apparently going to an appt. or hearing it from the mother isn't enough for him.  Personally, I think the guy is WAY out of line in demanding that his daughter tell him all the details of her intimate life.  IMO, there might be severe psychological repercussions if he continues down this path.  I wouldn't blame the dau. one bit if she eventually refused to communicate with him at all.

I think the mother is doing all she can in a very tricky situation and getting a psychologist involved is a VERY good idea.  I just hope that the dad will listen to a professional.

I also commend the mother in trying to help the dau. establish a relationship with her MD.  She's absolutely right, in that the dau. needs to feel comfortable talking to her MD about anything and know that it will remain confidential.  Developing that trust in a medical professional early is important and not often seen.  In this day and age, you HAVE to be proactive in your health care and the younger it's started, the better off one will be.

[Ref]

Do you personally know this person? I'm just asking because you seem to be adament that he is truely "forcing" the daughter. In my experience, people tend to exaggerate things by using terms like that to get the opinion they want.

DH's ex was always doing that. If he told her he didn't agree with her, she said he was abusing her. My own mother to this day still uses terms like this to try to manipulate me against my dad (I am in my mid-thirties).

I wasn't positive that this was what she was doing but it did seem to support this when she started talking about what her parenting wants were.

When she said that she wouldn't divulge personal information from conversations she had with her daughter even strengthened this feeling. That was a pathetic excuse not to have a real conversation about her daughter's development with her ex. There is no reason why she couldn't have a adult conversation with her ex about this without betraying any confidences. Made me feel that a little manipulation might be going on here.

Anyway, I still feel confident in my advice if this is true or not. If she is open and willing and even proactive in involving her ex, chances are he will not feel the need to talk to the daughter directly.

If he really is pushing his daughter to talk about things she isn't comfortable with, there is nothing BM can do about it except making every effort to let BF understand what is going on and try to make herself as the go-to person for this information.

I also think that having a relationship with the MD like that is a good thing, but this doesn't need to be the starting point of the relationship. If it is too explosive of an issue, I would think maybe the MD relationship development can be put on the back burner to keep the child out of a heated debate.

JMHO
Ref

PS I was really asking if you know her because that might change my opinion on the situation. I wasn't being sarcastic  

[Davy]

Kitty I'm surprised ... no..very surprised with your responses on this issue.

First of all like I said in an earlier post I didn't like the word 'force'.  My reasoning is that males are taught from a very young age that these issues are sensitive to females.  I think it would be highly unlikely that
any father would 'force' a conversation with an 11 yr old.  As a matter of fact, I think most males shutter somewhat communicating with a daughter, especially a young daughter, about these matters.

I suspect all the father wants/desires is to be informed about the well being of his daughter by the adult mother bear.  Do you think it is at all possible mothers use these issues to self promote their own egos ??  I'm really serious.  

Unfortunately, I'd bet that the first conversation a father usually has with a daughter (or a son) concerning sexually is when it is too late ie pregancy.

I'm also betting the mother chose/retained the MD and psychological professionals.  I would never turn the welfare of my child over to the whims (whatever they say) of a psychologist carte blanche.

Again, I hope your're not offended.  Just the opinions of a father with a grown daughter and grand daughter that grew up with a house full of sisters running around half naked.  The pool hall was a half block from the church and the pool hall had a 'sexology' reference book just in case anybody had any questions.    

[iceclimber]

then i wouldn't bet money on it if i were you. the crystal ball you are using doesn't work.

it is unfortunate that on this board some cannot get past their own scars. forever prejudging others unjustly based on their own experiences, which may not fit the situation at hand.

it's just not productive and it's off base.

i can see the wording could have been better phrased. however, i don't know how else to describe what he is asking.

i can also see the point that maybe he would not wish for her to have dr. patient confidentiality. so that was a good point.

this is all the more reason we need a parenting coordinator.
he blatantly said in writing he will only go to a parenting coordinator if i
1. pay for all of the services and
2. give him total decision making regarding the children (all in writing)

why does either of us have to give up our rights to raising our children to do the right thing and make this life better for them by reducing the conflict?

i only want to reduce the conflict for them....
so this particular issue will remain on the back burner, until such a time that he stops canceling the therapy appointments with the therapist he unilaterally chose.

to me  therapy for the children is only a band aid.... for what?
a problem that we made.

we made this mess... we should be the ones to fix it. and i truly feel a coordinator can help us with that.  i want someone that will show me the right way to communicate with him.

and i want to be able to communicate with him without being called foul names or yelled at in front of the children.

this is hurting them!

[Kitty C.]

Certainly don't know them personally...........But a LOT of huge red flags went up for me when the mother stated that the father refused everything except for getting the info directly from the daughter.  You are absolutely right, Davy.  Why WOULD a father, in this day and age, want to pry into the intimate details of his daughter's life?  That's my question and has been all along.  Something majorly is wrong here and if the father isn't satisfied with going to the MD appt. and still wants a face-to-face detailed discussion with his daughter about it, I can bet you dollars to donuts that girl will clam up completely.  And that creates a whole other set of possibilities:  Dad blames Mom because Dau. won't talk and Mom is upset with Dad for even trying and then Dau. feels guilty because Mom and Dad are fighting because of her....ad nauseum.

In this instance, I don't give a damn about either parent.  It's the child who could get very hurt psychologically.  I also find it hard to believe that the father can't see this and is willing to jeopardize his relationship with his daughter over this issue.  Like I said before, it's a CONTROL issue.  And the OP is right........the daughter isn't the one who needs the direction and help right now, it's the parents, as they are the ones who have to rectify it.  But if they don't, then the daughter will no doubt be in need of assistance and pay the price.....sooner or later.  Pushing an issue like this on an 11 y.o. girl could cause irreparable harm, which may not fully manifest itself until later in her life, when she can't figure out why she has so many relationship problems.  I may be barking up the wrong tree, but in this case, there's not too many trees this issue could go up and this tree is certainly a possibility.  No, I'm not a psychologist, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that doing something like this to an 11 y.o. is absolutely insane.

As always, JMO...........

[Ref]

I don't know anyone who would venture on to a board like this that doesn't have a decent amount of baggage. This is an amazingly emotional situation for everyone. That is why I like to disclose in my posts that I am biased and make assumptions based on my experience.

Hopefully you will take this as an opportunity to see if there is another viewpoint and not just disregard the opinions people send because you don't think they apply.

I have been told on this board that I have been wrong more than once. It feels prety awful, but it is as honest of advice as you will get out there and mostly very helpful.

It seems that you really need to focus on what you can do on your end without expecting to change anything about your ex. I still think you stepping in the front lines and giving as much info as he might want would do a lot to keep the pressure off your daughter.

Maybe you can talk with your daughter about how to discuss this stuff with her BF that won't upset her. Maybe give her a vocabulary that isn't quite as uncomfortable. Maybe find a book on how to talk to your daughter about this stuff or a website and forward it to BF so that he can get some hints on how to approach it in a more sensitive way.

I don't know. Just throwing ideas out.

Best wishes
Ref

[iceclimber]

i understand.....
and i have not disregarded all opinions. in fact, some things said gave me a great deal to think about. i agreed that it was a good point that he may not agree that her having a confidential relationship with her md.

i even agreed, that i should have phrased the post differently.

however, at this point in time we have no co-parenting. he calls the shots. and unless i want to upset the children with a tug of war for control, he usually gets what he wants.

i am trying to learn how to effectively deal with my ex. in a class i took, i learned that not using words like 'you, or you should or you will'.... etc.

basically words that would create a defensive posture and build communication barriers.

so now most times i say something like.... 'when you say ..... , it makes me feel like you mean..... is that what you are trying to say?'

co-parenting in a high conflict situation is delicate. so i try not to respond emotionally to the threats or attacks. then i try to only pick out the parts of the communication that are relevant and necessary to respond to in order to raise our children.

i have a note above my computer screen that reads  "will responding benefit the kids"

so with this situation.... it will be handled gingerly.

[Davy]

YOU POSTED :
>then i wouldn't bet money on it if i were you. the crystal ball you are >using doesn't work.

geesh !  what is "it" ... basically this is non-communication since nobody is a mind reader

>it is unfortunate that on this board some cannot get past their own >scars. forever prejudging others unjustly based on their own >experiences, which may not fit the situation at hand.

What ? can not get past their own scars ?  ... followed by "forever prejudging others unjustly based on ..."

What scars ??  followed by a judgement statement exagerrating the statement with 'Forever' just like you used of the word 'force'.
Simply amazing !  

Can you please explain why you do this ?


>it's just not productive and it's off base.

does this mean you are only going to listen to someone that agrees with you and encourages you ?

>this is all the more reason we need a parenting coordinator.

what does a parenting coordinator do or provide ?


Bottom line : there was nothing condensending or negative with my post. I can't make heads or tails of your post.  
 

[wendl]

11 is a hard age for boys and girls.  

I know when I was 11 and even older even though I was soo close to my dad I would never discuss girl things with him, I discussed it with my stepmom (rarely my own mother as I did not feel comfortable)

Now my son is 16 and he has always asked me questions and still does, I am glad he feels comfortable coming and asking me questions.

Explain to your ex it has nothing to do with him, but many many girls are uneasy talking about these things to their dads, explain to him you would be happy to discuss the DR appt, or let him come and speak with the DR alone after your daughter had a chance to speak ALONE with the DR.  

If your ex feels really strongly about this, have him talk with your daughter about it-and see what happens.


**These are my opinions, they are not legal advice**