I walked out on my wife and two girls five years ago, complete with divorce. My ex has full custody and is the custodial parent. Last year I came back and my ex started giving me weekends, slowly at first and now it is a given.
My question is; since I have returned and set a standard visitation schedule, is that enough for custody modification?
Ex and I are still not on good terms, so any change will have to go through the legal system. What are my chances?
My first thought is that the girls have their father in their life again. Apparently the mother somewhat realizes the value of your presence and IMHO, it is a great benefit for the girls to have both parents. So many children are not as fortunate.
Under the circumstances you have described it is most likely a court will continue, at the very minimum, the girls current access so your chances should be considered excellent for a custody mod.
It is possible to have a legal agreement and at the same time prevent the girls parents from entering a costly adverserial system where things can easily go south for all parties and to a place there is no winners ... just losers.
Do everything you can so that the parents labor benefit the children rather than the courts and attorneys.
I couldn't agree with Davy more!
Additionally, what are you wanting to happen? Are you wanting a formalization of what you have been practicing? Mom may not be against stipulating to that.
I would like to get 50/50 custody, don't know if I have a chance though. I understand for 5 years I haven't been involved with school, doctors, etc, etc. Plus I owe 17,000$ in child support. Don't know if I could get that with my past?
While you note that ex and you are not on good terms, it seems that you believe the legal system is the only recourse. It's okay to rethink that one - ex has validated the importance of you as a dad in child's life. There is always hope for improved communication and bettered relationship. Times are tough, this is certain. But is it possible for you to pull yourself out of the arrearage? This is often seen as an important symbolic move by the custodial parent that the noncustodial intends to partner up financially and emotionally for the child.
Have you considered mediation? It could bring you a written agreement that may or may not (according to what you seek) be encorporated into an order of the court - but written by the parents and created through brainstorming together.
Quote from: shaden3 on Apr 22, 2009, 04:35:08 AM
While you note that ex and you are not on good terms, it seems that you believe the legal system is the only recourse. It's okay to rethink that one - ex has validated the importance of you as a dad in child's life. There is always hope for improved communication and bettered relationship. Times are tough, this is certain. But is it possible for you to pull yourself out of the arrearage? This is often seen as an important symbolic move by the custodial parent that the noncustodial intends to partner up financially and emotionally for the child.
Have you considered mediation? It could bring you a written agreement that may or may not (according to what you seek) be encorporated into an order of the court - but written by the parents and created through brainstorming together.
I think this is a great idea, also- mom may balk at 50/50 right away- because, as you said, you've been MIA....but if you agree to less time than you actually want now (like formalizing what you have been doing) but the agreement is part of a graduated schedule that over the next 2 years (arbitrary #) works up to 50/50...that might be acceptable to mom.
Any time the parents can work out an acceptable agreement rather than having the court determine what will happen- all parties tend to be happier- and end up spending WAY less.
I've done a good job of keeping things between us difficult, I lawyered up and had her served without discussing it with her. I think that put her over the top. Since, we have a court ordered parenting plan and then we had a settlement meeting where I lost one of the weekends out of the month.
Quote from: Angus571 on Apr 22, 2009, 06:13:29 AM
I've done a good job of keeping things between us difficult, I lawyered up and had her served without discussing it with her. I think that put her over the top. Since, we have a court ordered parenting plan and then we had a settlement meeting where I lost one of the weekends out of the month.
It takes a lot of fortitude and strength to do what you are doing now, and admitting that you have done things in the past that have made things difficult at present is a good place to start. Sometimes people want things that are quite simple, but we don't know what those things are without asking. Continue on your good path to be involved with your children; things can always improve with taking the first step of admitting you wish you had handled things better. Letting mom know this may bring you surprisingly positive results, too. Ask what her concerns are, handle them one at a time, express what your needs and concerns are, work together, and the future will be brighter than the past. Much luck to you.
Angus,
I'm curious why the girls would lose one weekend per month with a parent. Could uou please expound ? Thanks !
I had everyweekend, this allowed the girls weekend time with their mother and her side of the family.
They presented a letter from the school stating that since I have entered the girls lives, there school grades have dropped.
No one can tell you how this will play out for you. The courts will look favorably that you are wanting to be in their lives again. The issues that could be questionable are -- you walked out on them emotionally and financially for five years and the time you have been back in their lives has relatively been short term, you still owe a great deal of arrears, you admit you keep things adveserial with Mom, the children have shown a negative response to you being in the picture cooberated by others.
When was that last order done (that removed that weekend per month)? Typically, a change in custody is based on 1) change in circumstance and 2) best interest of the children. Since that order appears to sound recent, what change of circumstance has occured since that order ? With you not being involved for years and then when you have been, they have possibly already shown a shared custody would not be in the children's best interest. Additionally, shared custody does not eliminate child support. Also, do you reside very close to Mom and the children? The courts will look at proximity as well as how your relationship is with Mom. The courts will most definitely evaluate parental cooperation in an evaluation for shared custody.
She got the one weekend back last week at the settlement meeting. I also lost an hour, I was dropping them off at 8pm now it's down to 7pm on Sunday's.
Trial is set for May.
Sorry, I should forgot to answer all of you questions.
I have lived about 3 miles from where they have lived. I also have to start therapy with my oldest, don't know when that will start. I don't know if therapy is good or bad?
Update:
She got her lawyers to push the trial back until Nov/Dec'ish....I don't know if that is good or bad?
Coming from someone whose father walked out on her and her siblings after divorce, I think that you're going about things in the wrong way. Unless their mother is unfit for some reason that you haven't disclosed there is no reason for it.
Having a parent disappear from your life is devastating for a child. I don't know how old your girls were when you left, so how they express it wil be different based on that. For a long time I wished my own father was dead because that would be easier for me to deal with than him just leaving like he did. He chose not to be part of my life. Imagine what that does to a girls self-esteem?
From your children's perspective you up and left them for four years. They had to deal with that, and learn to get along with the knowledge that their father doesn't want anything to do with them (from their perspective). Now you're back and you're demanding every weekend with them, and now even 50/50 custody. Have you talked to your girls about that? Do they want to split their time between you and their mom? How can they be sure that you won't ditch them again?
I am glad that you made the decision to be part of your children's lives, but I don't think that what you're doing is right. You're really upsetting the apple cart for them, again. The fact that their grades have dropped is evidence that the current situation is weighing on them.
My suggestion to you would be to withdraw your motion and spend some time and energy regaining your children's trust and focusing on what their needs are. Hopefully the counseling will be a good thing, and a good forum for your daughter to express how hurt she was by what you did - and for you to make amends.
Is that what a judge see's already? Or do I not have a fighting chance?
Not to discount Gemini's feelings and perspectives ... it is clearly understandable. I think it is an individual thing often influenced by those around a person. I continue to feel blessed that I had both parents.
I tell this little story in hopes that it may help someone. My dad only saw his father a couple of times in his life. Once before he left for WWII, another when he returned, and he came by the house one time when I was about 10 years old. Not much was said about him ever only Gramma (the ole coot) would occassionally tell how he stoled my dad's piggy bank and ran off when dad was 3 years old.
My Mom somehow has always blamed dad for not going to the doctor in time with colon cancer. He's been gone for 39 years ( 52 yrs old at time of death) ..My sister was able to find my dad's dad when he was on his death bed. He came from out of state immediately. Dad glowed as his dad reached across the bed and softly grabbed his mother's hand.
Recently I attended a colon cancer seminar and learned that a deadly colon cancer grows silently for 8 to 10 years before the symptoms even appear. In the past I use to have discussions with mom concerning the very facets of losing a loved one via death and divorce so I called her as I left the seminar to tell he the good news.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that death is permanent and divorce is not. Even in death, I still love my Dad and know that my dad loved me. In divorce I think the causes could very well grow silently for years just like a cancer and there is a certain love connection between a parent and a child ALWAYS. Oh dear God I hope so. Please don't tell any one but there is a love connection with the mother of my children. If you do I'll just say you're a frickin liar. ha !
The bottom line : A love connection will overcome ALL. Dad is doing the right thing and he should be encouraged. His presence is immeasureable.
Davy, I agree that he's doing the right thing by being present in his children's lives, and I absolutely encourage him to continue that for the rest of their lives. Obviously my own experiences give me a different perspective on this issue, but I think an important one.
I think it's important for parents on both sides of the aisle to know what losing a parent through divorce does to children - so that our anger doesn't end up harming the ones we hold most dear. CP's need to know exactly what they are doing to their children when they interfere in their relationship with the NCP, and NCP's need to know what they're doing to thier children when they walk out. Sometimes, because of alienation, the damage to the parent-child relationship is so great that it is impossible to maintain - and I understand that. My heart goes out to the parents I have met here who felt that had no choice but to give up on a relationship with their children. It is frustrating, knowing the struggles of so many, to see people who are afforded a relationship with their children and take that for granted and walk out on their kids.
I applaud him for going back, and for being part of their lives now. I just wonder what his kids think of all this. I wonder if they feel like he's treating them as property and not people. That their grades have slipped shows that something is bothering them.
JMHO
Gemini; As we know these matters are complicated and there is seldom a simple answer or resolution especially with atorneys/courts involved. The kids grades slipping may be related to the fathers's reappearance but the direct cause could be due to the mother's reaction and snide off hand negative remarks directed at the father which is upsetting to the kids. We just don't know.
Considering the father's access was reduced and now the trial has been pushed back from May to Nov/Dec I think is telling. These actions could be likend to giving the father a finger wave and now they want to use a stobe light during a colonosophy while they should be giving the mother a hysterectomy. If they can't find something wrong with Dad they may just make things up (his ass). Hopefully, Dad will watch his back side especially since he deems himself responsible for the initial cause of actions. It appears he treats the mother with respect !
The kids will be called upon to suffer while the case is prolonged. One would hope the parents could come to a final resolution themselves. Neither (and the kids) may be happy with the court's decisions.
Quote from: Davy on May 20, 2009, 06:25:26 AM
...but the direct cause could be due to the mother's reaction and snide off hand negative remarks directed at the father which is upsetting to the kids. We just don't know.
Help, Davy, where does Angus say this?
Davy, it seems like you're making some broad assumptions. I think that it's actually better for him that the trial was pushed back because it gives him more time to show that he's going to stick around this time. As it stands he is getting more than the standard visitation, and I can see why it would make sense for the mom to have one weekend a month. It's important for both sides to have the opportunity for time together as a family, and to visit other family members.
Also, before they went to court and got a parenting plan the mom was giving him MORE time, of her own free will. I think this shows a lot on her behalf, and I don't think we should assume that she's talking trash about dad to the kids. If she was an alienator why would she have allowed him visitation with the children without a court order? That just doesn't add up.
Why would you say that they need to give the mother a hysterectomy? From what the poster has said she has been pretty easy to deal with. Saying that is inflammitory and doesn't help anyone's cause.
to CSVS : you're picking and choosing just to attack davy AND AGAIN trying to sway the post away from the subject matter post . Clearly what I posted is the truth which you appear to have a hard time with :
" As we know these matters are complicated and there is seldom a simple answer or resolution especially with atorneys/courts involved. The kids grades slipping may be related to the fathers's reappearance but the direct cause could be due to the mother's reaction and snide off hand negative remarks directed at the father which is upsetting to the kids.
We just don't know. "
Note I said "could be" and ended with "We just don't know.
Gemini : What ? Broard assumptions ? Hysterectomy ?
Just like you make broad assumptions questioning if "father stick around this time" and other derogatory comments to tear down the dad while building up mommy dearest.
My post are open and honest. I try to encourage the participants to find a way to work out the matters at hand. In other words, let the courts and attorneys stand down. Do you have a serious problem or is it just because you realize the court may not have view you previously posted and this father has a fighting chance. That's what the poster asked. There's no need for you to turn each post inwards. Don't shake your finger at me unless you want my finger in return.
to CSVS : you're picking and choosing just to attack davy AND AGAIN trying to sway the post away from the subject matter post . Clearly what I posted is the truth which you appear to have a hard time with :
" As we know these matters are complicated and there is seldom a simple answer or resolution especially with atorneys/courts involved. The kids grades slipping may be related to the fathers's reappearance but the direct cause could be due to the mother's reaction and snide off hand negative remarks directed at the father which is upsetting to the kids.
We just don't know. "
I am very sorry, Davy. You did say that it was only a possibility. It may also be related to (and the direct cause being) a full moon during a wedding procession led by a high school marching band barking orders at large ballerinas wearing diving gear and carrying ostriches.
C'mon......do you want to fan the flames or give the OP some advice or insight that they can possibly use? CSVS, since you're new here, I would recommend reading regular posters well before posting a comment like that. Davy is a regular who frequently uses analogies to make his point. Others have different styles......this is his. So sometimes it takes some reading to understand a poster to know where they're coming from, and whether they're being mean-spirited or just sarcastic. Take it from one who knows.........it took me a while to figure him out myself.....right, Davy? (http://www.deltabravo.net/forum/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
And let's stay on topic........(http://www.deltabravo.net/forum/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)
Kitty C. you are absolutely right about the tone being inappropriate, and I see that you're pointing out that posters having different styles. Words are powerful things, and fueling flames is not helpful. Please at this point take into consideration that the hostility with which Davy responded was not just a style, Kitty C. It was a bold presumption about a mom without knowing the situation. You're right about sarcasm not being useful here. My reaction was from the gut, and not from the head. It would have been better to address the original post in a positive way.
Again and again I posted :
" As we know these matters are complicated and there is seldom a simple answer or resolution especially with atorneys/courts involved. The kids grades slipping may be related to the fathers's reappearance but the direct cause could be due to the mother's reaction and snide off hand negative remarks directed at the father which is upsetting to the kids.
We just don't know. "
It is true .. WE JUST DON'T KNOW. It could be the students are having difficulty with a subject matter or they have a new boyfriend or perhaps their grades aren't slipping at all and some admininistrator or teacher made that proclamation to show disfavor toward the father in an upcoming hearing. Ya'll can be assured there will be no apologies for the original example I used. It was an example. It was Not sarcastic. If you consider it hostile then you simply don't know hostility at all. It is also true ... As we know these matters are complicated and there is seldom a simple answer or resolution especially with atorneys/courts involved. WE JUST DON'T KNOW".
The reason you can't stay on topic is because you have nothing of value to stay on topic with.
Ya'll can be assured there will be no apologies for the original example I used. It was an example. It was Not sarcastic. If you consider it mean-spirited or hostile then you simply don't know anything about a mean-spirit or hostility..
Geesh ! Go figure !
I have figured. Ya'll just simply want to slice and dice less important sentences in a post
because of your deceiving pro-female, anti-father, anti children and anti-family stances brought on by your mis-guided idealologies.
Kitty, I think it was those frozen turkey balls that did it. You stlll have'nt invited me to partake but I think about it all the time. (http://www.deltabravo.net/forum/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
More later !
"because of your deceiving pro-female, anti-father, anti children and anti-family stances brought on by your mis-guided idealologies." - Davy
Kitty C, that's not a style. That's a damaged human being.
Davy, please think about finding a therapist who can address whatever it was that hurt you so deeply as a kid, whatever abuse it was you suffered at the hands of whatever emasculating men in your life. My heart goes out to you, my head just doesn't understand why you attack people.
First of all I do not need to explain or defend myself to you or Kitty or the likes of you.
WHAT IS IMPORTANT is that you keep to the task at hand as it pertains to the subject matter at hand. It would be wise for you examine the purpose of "SPARC".
I strongly suspect you are a continuation of a troubled poster from the last several weeks and associated with an org. funded by HHS. If that is the case then at least I've got your sorry butt belittling me with tax payer dolllars instead of destroying children. So the kids win.
As you might guess I've had the best-ever of male role models and female role models. Women tend to love me and feminists tend to hate me. Just the way I want it. I'm a guy's guy.
I'm curious. Why didn't you address your post to "Earl" ? Are you hoping to find support by posting to Kitty ?
As mentioned in another post, we encourage debate here, even very ummm, spirited debate, but I would ask everyone to refrain from name-calling or gratuitous attacks. Fair enough?
Quote from: Davy on May 20, 2009, 04:43:02 PM
Gemini : What ? Broard assumptions ? Hysterectomy ?
Just like you make broad assumptions questioning if "father stick around this time" and other derogatory comments to tear down the dad while building up mommy dearest.
My post are open and honest. I try to encourage the participants to find a way to work out the matters at hand. In other words, let the courts and attorneys stand down. Do you have a serious problem or is it just because you realize the court may not have view you previously posted and this father has a fighting chance. That's what the poster asked. There's no need for you to turn each post inwards. Don't shake your finger at me unless you want my finger in return.
Davy, I don't see any comments that I made that were derogatory. I cannot, however, say the same for you. If you take the time to read all of the posts I have made on this board you will see that I don't take sides based on gender. I am here because I believe that all children should have the benefit of a relationship with BOTH parents. I think NCP's, be they male or female, get a bad rap in today's courts, and I am working at changing that - and not just by posting on this board You say that you encourage participants to find a way to work out matters at hand, yet whenever I read your posts I am usually shocked at how quick you are to viscously attack people who have an opinion that differs from yours. I have never said that I don't think this man should be part of his children's lives. I don't think that he has a "fighting chance", as you put it, at getting 50/50 custody after disappearing from his daughters lives for five years, and having only been back for a year. I think his time, energy and money would be better spent on his daughters than on lawyers at this point. That is my opinion, and I am as entitled to it as you are to yours I don't think I "turn each post inwards". Instead, I felt that I was sharing a unique perspective that is extremely relevant to the conversation we are having. What I had to say wasn't for your benefit, so I really don't care if you got anything out of what I said. Don't tell me though that I shouldn't have said it, because I think there are a lot of people who would benefit from it, including this poster. I think that more people who are going through separation and divorce should consider the impact their actions are having on their children, and less on how they are or are not affecting their ex. If that were the case we would probably all have a lot less to put on these message boards. I especially take issue with you asking me, not for the first time, if I "have a problem". It is the equivalent, in my eyes, as bowing up to someone at a bar because you think they looked at you funny. Not something that I can find much respect for, and an attitude that I find to be aggressive and antagonistic. I read a lot of anger in your posts, and I think that in your anger you are so ready for a fight you end up attacking the people who are on the same side as you. Like me.
I had my lawyer submit to her attorney that I am unhappy with the current agreement of one week on one week off for the summer. I don't want it to be just for the summer...We will see what happens.
Angus, I hope it's all right to go back to what you said early on: "I've done a good job of keeping things between us difficult..."
Is it possible that going forward with your lawyer in an adversarial way like this so quickly (after having been uninvolved so long as you noted) is setting the stage for more difficulties to come? You seemed to be very open to doing things in a way that gets you involved in a more meaningful way with your children, open to knowing that your reappearance is frought with challenges for your kids. Are you at all interested in working with your ex, rather than against her?
I think we are beyond making amends
Quote from: Angus571 on May 23, 2009, 01:03:43 AM
I think we are beyond making amends
How we approach getting what we what and need is a choice we make. You can change your mind at any point, so please come back if you want to take control over how this plays out and you can ask for specific guidance. It will be here for you.
Whoosh ! Angus , come back to this board any time. Thee is a lot of info. on this site and an army of good counsel. Please keep us posted. Best to ya ! Thanks for posting.
If anyone has a magic wand (without knowing the history of the participants) or they want to share new proven philosophies and theories as fact then I suggest SPARC will gladly document for the benefit of all. So far, I haven't seen any verbage from some new posters that was not known as a six grader.
Otherwise, a poster should not contend or imply that are the all knowing and all telling.
Davy, you may view your incessant "oppositional" nonsense as wry and entertaining. It's not. It's the self-serving, egomaniacal and childish stuff of someone who is outlandishly misdirected. Telling a poster that s/he can gets what's needed here by saying "it's here if you need it," could mean, you ranting toddler, that many posters here can and will guide him. If you took the time to read the posts, this would be known to you. However, there's very little good you do here, other than relate your hatred of anyone who can relate an intelligent thought that doesn't support your he-man-woman-hating hoohah. You jump to conclusions about everything everyone stands for, believes in and meant to say. Give everyone a break, man, and find a hint of kindness in your black soul.
Quote from: Angus571 on Apr 21, 2009, 11:13:23 PM
I would like to get 50/50 custody, don't know if I have a chance though. I understand for 5 years I haven't been involved with school, doctors, etc, etc. Plus I owe 17,000$ in child support. Don't know if I could get that with my past?
Let's see if I got this straight: You abandoned your children physically for 5 years, didn't pay your child support and you now want 50/50 physical custody?
That isn't happening. You chose not to be a parent for 5 years. You chose not to pay your child support. That will have a major impact with a judge. And while it is good that you changed your mind and are now being an active part of the children's lives, that doesn't change the fact that you abandoned them.
Rather than spending money on an attorney, you should spend the money paying off the child support arrears and counseling for the kids so that they can deal with what you did to them. If you handle this right, you might be able to mend the damage you did to your relationship with your kids. And trying to force 50/50 physical on children who aren't handling the current schedule well (their drop in grades is proof of that) is NOT handling it right.
MomofTwo, you've said some important things here. Angus does have options about what he might do with his money, and repairing the harm he said he did through child support payments and therapeutic care of his children are good ideas. Well said. Your ideas are positive and powerful, and this is just the kind of input that serves a poster well.
New twist....
Ex has remarried, her spouse works for the goverment and he is being transfered next year. She told me as a means to discuss options and give us time to think about it. She is offering all summers with my girls and all holidays, with us splitting the cost of travel. Now I am fighting for over 50% of custody since she is moving with the girls...Don't know how this will play out now, it's obvious that she is not fleeing and willing to give me a lot of visitation with the girls. I don't know how a judge will view this now?
She has also done a lot of research on the new local area, schools/hospitals/doctors, etc, etc...They have done their homework and studies. Plus she has family in the new area as well.
That is a normal visitation plan for long distance but since she is the one moving SHE should pay all travel costs. If it looks like the judge is going to split costs then ask for reduced child support due to the travel costs to see kids. Do you really think she will put them on a plane to see you after you have not seen them in so long? You can stop moves, meaning the kids stay with you and she can move BUT you have not been involved to get that yet. Do the kids want to move?
Both girls are under 10, so I don't think their opinion really matters. I know they have a strong attachment to the Ex's Husband. I would say yes, if I had to answer honestly.
Yes, I believe she would adhere to whatever we agree on or what the Judge orders...She is not vindictive in anyway.
So, I'm confused. Why are you fighting this?
Would moving to the same town be a possibility?
Because I want to be apart of my kids lives and raising them....
But you said that you don't think she's being vindictive, you believe she'll send them to you for your time. That implies that she'll support a relationship and believes that it's valuable to the kids. How far away is she moving? And again, is there a possibility of you moving around the same time? Also, in this economy, what a company says they plan to do in a year should be taken with a grain of salt.
We are on the West Coast and the planned move is to the East Coast...No way I can move. With his job, it is a solid that the move is set. I don't doubt that he has to move....
Well, you have two choices..
1. fight the move and request she stay with kids or they live with you (more and more judges are not allowing move aways)
2. work out a deal to be able to see them and get it is writing..
We are on the East coast..they school calendar had holidays in every month, plus they get a feb and spring break (thanksgivng and christmas) and you should get most of the summer...end of june until aug here.
It appears to me you are doing all the right things concerning the children and especially the congenial and respectful communication you have with the mother. In many aspects you may have significant cause for the children to remain in their current environment in contrast to being uprooted and relocated across the country.
No matter the picture that will be painted concerning the relocate ... new job, family, schools, hospitals, visitation, willingness to cooperate,etc. the truth is that a relocate is sometimes difficult for an intact family. Add to that scenario separated parents, jurisdictional issues which may arise, and more over the children's knowledge that a parent has been left behind and is not close by. Your stated desire is to be part of the children's life ... that means their education/social/athletic/church involvements, etc.
Those involvements are simply unattainable when a geographical distance has been created for what ever reason(s). The children activities and needs and wants will naturally change as they age. Also, things can change in the mother's life to the point she is a completely different person and doesn't even know herself (ie she becomes a rant and raving Bimbo).
The new twist you referred to is not just "new" .... it is "MAJOR with significant ramifications and repercussions". Much has been written and laws and more laws have been created over a long period of time. Please do your self (and mother) and the children a favor by researching this site and other sources concerning moveaways, relocations, interstate custody, UCCJA and PKPA and even the Office of Juvenile Justice.
You might consider presenting a situation whereas the children remain in the home state with you and the mother does all the traveling back and forth (or some variation thereof).
When everything is given careful consideration then such a situation is best all the way around for all concerned.
Thanks for taking a stand for your children. Best to them and all.
Quote from: Angus571 on May 26, 2009, 08:37:05 AM
We are on the West Coast and the planned move is to the East Coast...No way I can move. With his job, it is a solid that the move is set. I don't doubt that he has to move....
If this goes to court, the judge is going to look at the whole situation. Including which parent has always been there for the kids.
And that wasn't you for 5 years.
They are also going to look at who has been supporting the children financially.
And that wasn't you for 5 years.
You aren't going to be able to stop the children from moving. Your actions in the past pretty much saw to that. And since you ony recently came back into their lives, you really don't have a track record of being there for your kids. Whereas, the mother and stepfather do.
Thanks for all the help,
I know each and every one of you have endured your own situation and have based you opinions one that. As of now, I think Momfortwo is the most logical...But we will see!
It ain't over until it's over...
I think it's unlikely that you will be able to stop the move away because of the scenarios that momoftwo has already pointed out. I understand that you want to be a part of your children's lives and raising them, and I think that is the best thing for your children.
As you moved forward, you might consider whether your time and money would be best spent fighting a move away that you know will be very difficult to stop given the current circumstance. Also consider that the children would probably be very upset if they were forced to live with you and their mom and stepdad, who have been there for them all along, moved to the east coast. That would be very traumatic for them, and I don't think that a judge would find that in their best interest.
I get the sense that you feel like you "have" to fight for them because you left, and now you need to show that you really want them in your lives. If that's the case, and you do feel you have something to prove, family court isn't the place to prove it - and a judge isn't the person you need to prove it to. It's your children and, honestly, I hope they don't know anything about what's going on in court because that is very stressful for them. You will be able to prove it to them by maximizing the amount of time you are able to spend with them. It sounds like your ex is willing to do that, and kudos to her for not being vindictive.
I do agree that, since she is initiating the move away, she should be responsible for all transportation.
Quote from: Davy on May 26, 2009, 05:20:03 PM
things can change in the mother's life to the point she is a completely different person and doesn't even know herself (ie she becomes a rant and raving Bimbo).
Seriously Davy, is that really "encouraging the participants to find a way to work out the matters at hand"? I don't think that the poster's ex being a 'ranting and raving bimbo' is one of the matters at hand. In fact, the poster has said several times that his ex is being very cooperative.
What you're doing is inciting discord. "What if"-ing is never productive.
Angus, you continue to seem open to being guided by others, and I wanted to support what gemini3 said in a very eloquent way:
"I get the sense that you feel like you "have" to fight for them because you left, and now you need to show that you really want them in your lives. If that's the case, and you do feel you have something to prove, family court isn't the place to prove it - and a judge isn't the person you need to prove it to. It's your children and, honestly, I hope they don't know anything about what's going on in court because that is very stressful for them. You will be able to prove it to them by maximizing the amount of time you are able to spend with them. It sounds like your ex is willing to do that, and kudos to her for not being vindictive."
You're on the verge of building a new foundation for you and your children. Should mom move with the children, you can be assured that your continued planning, patience and respect-building will only increase the bond you will be re-developing with your children. There are years to come where they will become excited about flying out to be with dad, and the past will not be filled with bad feelings about the court battle between their bio parents, but rather serve as a role model for them to be civil adults one day. However, the path through court will more likely give you kids who are embittered, unsettled, depressed and angry at their dad for the lack of peace in their lives.
Ask yourself, again, what do I want. And then plan the best you can to get that. Gemini3 has good advice to that end.
Ex is now offering me all Holidays, entire months of June and July, and she is offering to pay all transportation fees for the children....Still an up hill battle for me, we will see what happens.
All holidays? meaning what? Winter and Spring break? Thanksgiving? Christmas? Summer?
You would then see them Feb, April. June, July, November, December
Does she have the financial means to fly the kids back and for that many times across the country? This will cost her a lot because airfare goes way up when kids have off of school (at least here).
I agree....and if they are under age 13, there will be additional unaccompanied minor charges for each child, above and beyond the cost of the tickets. I haven't had to use that for quite a few years now, but it used to be $60 one way. Anyone know what it is now?
If I had to guess I would say that means; Fall Break, Winter Break, and Spring Break, and two mos out of the Summer.
Yes, She would be able to afford the plane tickets...That wouldn't be a problem.
Does this make her look better when we go to trial...That she is offering me everything?
It seems to me that it would be much more fair and practical to the children especially as they got older if mom would keep her home base in the local community and she does the transport to and fore to visit her hubby or relocate with her hubby and do the transport to and for to visit the children. After all, mom and hubby are both adults with predicable daily routine lives that could easily adjust to changes. For example, if the children had a special event on a Wednesday then both parents could more easily participate.
Transportation costs and flight schedules would be more tolerable for an adult.
The children could have more involvement with both parents and would not have to live their lives around transportation schedules, visitation periods, and wondering when mom's hubby is going to have another career move and they'll be uprooted again to parts unknown.
Besides, her proposal seems to imply that her hubby has "rights" to your children when he has zero rights.
In addition, many children have grown and prospered when dad is the primary.
I think the children benefit best when reasonable parents focus on the children and think outside the status quo box.
What is your thinking and do you feel she might consider burdening herself instead of the children.
Are you saying that children that move frequently are not has happy or don't do as well in life? I wonder how many military members and thier family's would disagree with you?
Transportation cost are more tolerable for an adult? Of course, the girls don't have jobs and can't afford it?
Wonder when hubby is going to have another career move? See sentence two....
Were did you pressume that she thinks her husband has "rights?" I have no idea where you are coming up with that?
Of course many children have grown and prospered when their Dad was primary...But mine have specifically done well while the Mom has been primary, she has been their rock and go to parent their entire lives
Think outside the box? This is the 21st century....There is no box any more!
I hate to nay say your ideas...But if I can argue your points, I'm sure a Judge with several years of experience can as well and be better at it than me.
I don't think she will burden herself......
Just what I thought ... you're part of the HOAX.
Otherwise, I'm Vietnam era DAV and have provided more authenic assistance, support , and help to veterans for a long period of time and surround my self with the likes of retired full birds, sharp shooters, combat medics, forward observers ..... in other words ...low lifes like you can only talk big about it. Any questions ???
Transportation cost and schedules are more tolerable for an adult? Of course, the girls don't have jobs and can't afford it? IT IS TRUE but YOU can't respond.
career move? See sentence five ....
husband has "rights?" I have no idea where you are coming up with that? If you grab both ears and jerk real hard maybe .. just maybe you will see the light.
specifically done well while the Mom has been primary, she has been their rock and go to parent their entire lives .... No way was I being condensending to mom but you continue your hoax on this board being condensending to dads.
There is no box any more! OH YES THERE IS ... JUST LOOK IN THE MIRROR
I hate to nay say your ideas...But if I can argue your points.... MY POINTS WERE NOT PUT OUT FOR ARGUMENT AND YOU REFUSE TO INTELLIGENTLT ADDRESS MY POINTS WHICH ARE ALL VERY VALID,
I'm sure a Judge with several years of experience can as well and be better at it than me.
OH GEE..I'M SHAKIN IN MY BOOTS> JUDGES RULE THEY DON"T ARGUE YOU IDIOT BUT IT SHOWS THE BITCHDOM YOU"RE COMING FROM
I don't think she will burden herself...... OF COURSE NOT
Mom should not have to even remotely consider leaving the children behind. She is what those children know as the parent who has been there their entire lives. She is the one who provided for them emotionally and financially when the poster CHOSE to abandon them. He was not forced to walk out of their lives, he freely admits he walked out on them. For someone who claims to think of the children's best interst, how do you think it would affect these children to be left again but by their other parent. I can't imagine the emotional destruction that would do to those children. Sorry, I don't even remotely begin to believe that saying oh daddy will take good care of you while I leave will resonate at all with these children since Daddy walked out on them already in their lives. What an absurd suggestion.
Poster admits to
1) walking out on his children
2) walking out on supporting his children
3) being back in their lives a short time
4) during which time he CHOOSES to keep things adveserial with Mom though she does not act that way herself
5) he believes Mom will keep him in the children's lives and believes she will stick to her word
I think Gemini gave great advice. Whether poster likes it or not, you need to prove yourself to your children. You need to stop being adveserial. You need to think how walking out on your children affected them and then you come back in and now you fight Mom for shared custody. Now you think they should not go with the two people who have been there for them. How is this in THEIR best interest ???? You admit Mom has not fought you on being in their lives, has not been adveserial, but you have been. You admit you believe Mom is true to her word.
I think it is truly wonderful you want to be in their lives, but I think you should have been there all along. I think you need to stop thinking about fighting with Mom and start truly thinking about those children and what your past actions have done and what your continued adveserial actions will do.
This is my situation....Anyone who has any constructive advice that is non-condescending is greatly appreciated. Also, please don't take it personal, I don't think it's healthy.
I don't make it a point to argue with anybody; it's just, I try to perceive it as the Ex would....
Thanks for all the help!
Angus
Ya'll are conducting a HOAX on this site wih this thread. I HOPE TO CONVINCE Waylon........
Gemini had a bias and prejudice against the make believe OP due to her personal experience ...............................
what an unneccessary burden on everybody trying to help people...the only question I have is if this was an unassigned practice task or another make-work government funded project
Dude..Seriously, Knock it off......Start your own post, but keep mine on topic, please.
This is the last time I'm going to ask you to keep your comments civil. If you can't do that then you won't be welcome here. Quote from: Davy on Jun 01, 2009, 10:09:23 AM
I'm sure a Judge with several years of experience can as well and be better at it than me.
OH GEE..I'M SHAKIN IN MY BOOTS> JUDGES RULE THEY DON"T ARGUE YOU IDIOT BUT IT SHOWS THE BITCHDOM YOU"RE COMING FROM
I don't think she will burden herself...... OF COURSE NOT
I think you are at the point ask her to put in writing what she means about holidays and summer visits. Ask her to send you her proposal in writing with which dates/holidays you would get according to the kids school schedule. Then you can start negotiating better with her. There is no fall break.
I am on the East Coast, we have 5 days off for Thanksgiving, Christmas is usually Dec 23- Jan 2nd off (alternate each year?), Feb vacation- 1 week usually 2nd week of feb, March/April (goes around Easter and Passover) usually little over a week off, Then your summers...with specific dates you get them.
At first I was going to say you put send her your proposal but I dont know if you want that in writing
yet since you have not decided how you are going with this.
Good Point Ocean...Right now, my lawyer is digging up dirt on her. I don't know if that is the right path or not....Opinions?
I agree with Gemini..........the ONLY thing you have to prove is yourself to your children. From everything you've posted so far, it sounds like the mother is more than willing to bend over backwards to accomodate as much parenting time as possible, given the distance involved. Given that you've been out of their lives both physically and fiscally, what you're being offered is a goldmine. Personally, I think the mother is being a saint in the plan she's offering. It sounds like all you need to do is figure out specifics of each holiday and how transportation will be arranged.
I just don't get what you still want to fight with the mother about..........given the history you have had with your kids, you should consider yourself lucky she is even making the offer. If you want worst case scenario, I could see this going completely the other way......try to fight it long and hard enough and the mother will take everything off the table and then you WILL have to fight tooth and nail for anything. As it is, when you do have the kids initially, I would invest in some family counseling, to ensure you are starting back on the right foot with your children and that they don't harbor any resentment towards you.
I agree with Kitty .... Why do you want to go that route?
I wasn't being harsh or condescending previously, those are some very serious realities in your case and they will be looked at in any custody determination. I highly suggest you do what has been suggested -- write down what you want, present it to Mom, work through it. THe route you are taking continues to be adveserial and honestly, you may lose more than Mom is offering if it gets to court.
The courts will evaluate those facts, the court will evaluate the children's best interest, the courts will look at which parent fosters a relationship with the other parent. Your history will play a huge part in it. Courts will not order shared custody when the parents can not co-parent or even get along. The courts are not going to remove custody from Mom.
If you are unhappy with your attorney, seek out second opinions, but maybe he is telling you what you dont' want to hear. Honestly, there will always be an attorney who will promise you the world and oh yea I can do that for you, when the reality is, there are facts that lead up to where you are now, and those facts will be highly scrutinized in the court, especially in a custody determination.
If you continue to want to make this ugly, you have presented some facts that will heavily weigh against you in family court.
Work with Mom, not against her. You already said she is willing to work things out with you. Take that approach. Not the one you are wanting to do.
Yup...and if she is willing you can go back and forth on email or phone and not pay lawyer fees... Once you agree have one of your lawyers write it up, other looks at it and have it rubber stamped.
Quote from: Angus571 on Jun 01, 2009, 11:04:24 AM
Good Point Ocean...Right now, my lawyer is digging up dirt on her. I don't know if that is the right path or not....Opinions?
No dirt you dig up is going to overcome the dirt she has on you.
Child abandonment is pretty serious. You aren't getting custody. And if your attorney is telling you differently, then I don't think you told your attorney everything.
BTW, just what do you think digging up dirt on your kids' mother and trying to tear them away from her is going to do to your kids? It certainly isn't going to show them that you love them. All you would be doing is showing them what a petty and vindictive person you are.
And you have no right to be petty and vindictive considering that you VOLUNTARILY ABANDONED your children for 5 years.
Again, your money would be better spent paying off your child support arrears, paying for counseling to help your children deal with what you did to them than fighting a losing battle.
Somewhere, I get the sense these kids are not what you are thinking about. In this case, the mom is not leaving to spite you; she is going due to the career of the main provider in the family. You digging up dirt on her has nothing to do with the kids, but everything to do with you winning. Do not follow one set of mistakes with another set: walking out is not replaced by fighting tooth and nail. If anything, you are feeding both heads of the custody battle dragon: inter-parental hostility and loss of parental contact. Put the kids first, and focus on what will work for everyone. It is not about who gets their way; it is about where will the kids thrive best.
As for the kids grades dropping, it could also be due to the fact that they are out of their normal routine and adjusting to reuniting with you. But YOU should be concerned about their grades, and see where you can turn that around. And not to impress the judge, but because you love your kids.
MomofTwo....I haven't taken anything you have said as harsh condescending. That message was intended for one person. Sorry.
I truely appreciate everyone's advice...Thank You!
Angus.
By me fighting for more, I could lose more? My understanding is that the Judge will try to find middle ground...I'm I wrong?
If this went to court for a judge to decide he/she wont care and give you the "usual" visitation for long distance in your state unless the lawyers work something else out. Right now, mom is offering (you think) ALL of the kids breaks. You cant "win" any more than that plus she is willing to pay for airfare right now. In court, she can change that and say she wants every other spring/winter break and part of the summer and she will pay for 3 of 4 trips or something like that...You may end of paying for some of the airfare and not get ALL breaks.
So unless you have a GOOD chance of changing custody, you have the best long distance deal on the table now. How long have you been back with the kids? What is the schedule now? They are doing every other weekend with you. sleeping over?
I have been back in the kids lives for about a year now and in the summer we agreed to week on week off. Yes they do sleep over at my house.
Wow..okay that changes things a little. Since August you have had them every other week, bring them to school, the whole bit?? You live in the same school district?
and
Do the kids want to move? How old are they? If you went to court, a LG will interview them and see what they want and tell that to the court. If they are old enough they can go on the stand themselves.
Or did you mean starting THIS summer week on, week off? and is that court ordered?
I had them ever weekend, that was court ordered the beginning of this year (Feb). Then we went to mediation and I lost a weekend a month, but we worked out every other week just for the summer. That is where we stand now, 3 weekends a month during school and week on week of during summer.
It appears to me you are doing all the right things concerning the children and especially the congenial and respectful communication you have with the mother. The children are most fortunate to have two nuturing and caring parents. In many aspects you may have significant cause for the children to remain in their current environment in contrast to being uprooted and relocated across the country.
No matter the picture that will be painted concerning the relocate ... new job, family, schools, hospitals, visitation, willingness to cooperate,etc. the truth is that a relocate is sometimes difficult for an intact family. Add to that scenario separated parents, jurisdictional issues which may arise, and more over the children's knowledge that a parent has been left behind and is not close by. Your stated desire is to be part of the children's life ... that means their education/social/athletic/church involvements, etc.
Those involvements are simply unattainable when a geographical distance has been created for what ever reason(s). The children activities and needs and wants will naturally change as they age. Also, in the future, things CAN CHANGE in the mother's life to the point she is a completely different person and doesn't even know herself.
A relocation of the children is a MAJOR issue with significant ramifications and repercussions. Much has been written and laws and more laws have been created over a long period of time. Please do your self (and mother) and the children a favor by researching this site and other sources concerning moveaways, relocations, interstate custody, UCCJA and PKPA and even the Office of Juvenile Justice.
You might consider presenting a situation whereas the children remain in the home state with you and the mother does all the traveling back and forth (or some variation thereof).
When everything is given careful consideration then such a situation is best all the way around for all concerned.
It would be much more fair and practical to the children, especially as they grew older, if mom would keep her home base in the local community and she does the transport to and fore to visit her hubby or relocate with her hubby and do the transport to and for to visit the children. After all, mom and hubby are both adults with predicable daily routine lives that could easily adjust to changes. For example, if the children had a special event on a Wednesday then both parents could more easily participate and you could gleefully welcome her upon arrival... a great role model for the children. Many children have grown and prospered when dad is the primary just as they seem to with mom as the primary.
The children would have more involvement with both parents and would not have to live their lives around transportation schedules, visitation periods, and wondering when mom's hubby is going to have another career move and they'll be uprooted again to parts unknown. Transportation costs would be reduced and flight schedules would be more tolerable for an adult.
It has been my experience that the children benefit best when reasonable parents focus on the children and think outside the status quo box. That would be my hope for your children.
Do you think it is possible the mother might consider such an agreement ? It might be worthy and have some value in the eyes of the court.
Great job taking a stand for your children. Best to them and all. |
|
Quote from: Angus571 on Jun 02, 2009, 05:23:10 AM
By me fighting for more, I could lose more? My understanding is that the Judge will try to find middle ground...I'm I wrong?
The short answer to this is yes. In my experience judges don't try to find middle ground. They try to maintain the status quo. I agree with some of the other posters that your ex is offering you a gold mine. If your attorney is encouraging you to keep fighting you must keep in mind that he/she is employed by you. As soon as you resolve your case with your ex he/she stops getting money from you. The lawyer gets a lot more money if you go to court than if you don't.
Your ex is offering you a great deal. I don't think that you will do better if you go to court - as you saw first hand when you lost one of your weekends. She is offering you quite a bit of time. If my math is right it will work out to be more time than you have currently AND she'll be paying all of the transportation expenses.
Resolving this means less stress on you, your ex, and the kids. It means more time, money and energy to spend with your children - where the reward will be limitless. There will be little reward when that time, money and energy is spent with lawyers in family court. There are lots of times when I advise people to fight ,fight, fight - and there are lost of situations where this is necessary. Consider yourself lucky that your case isn't one of them.
Gemini, why do you feel the need for 50/50? If you are seeing your kids and involved again why is the legal terminology important? Fighting for your kids is great, however it is often better to not be involved in a fight, in a custody dispute which ultimately just benefits the lawyers.
Consider this, you have your kids as much as possible, spend time and energy on them, as well as your money, ( you can't buy that new computer if you need the funds for the lawyers, and that mean both you and mom are taking money that could and most likely should have been spent on the kids.)
A custody fight is just that a fight, fighting promotes additional ill will and hard feelings. If mom is willing to give a little now, chances are she will be more liekly to give again later on.....
Just a thought
I am sorry my post should have addressed Angus, Now I have to go back and read the rest of the posts because I think I have missed something other things as well...
Angus, I have read through all of the post again, and have to agree, your chances of winning are slim at best, even with the relocation, it is not just the enconomy that is involved it also the fact that mom has family there. the girls are under 10, and mom has been primary. You just reappeared, you owe arrears, and you want equaility. I just don't see it.
If you really want to be with the kids, and are certain that the move is going to happen, I would look into relocating... then may you could still have a 50/50 split of time with the kids, other wise I think you should run and sign the offer that is on the table.
Good luck