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Okay.. I thought about this while typing my last post, but felt it was getting too long so I didn't mention it.

Onedaddy, we have had the same problem with dh kids going home and saying that we did something mean to them. BM complaining and saying that the kids have told the school, the councelors, Dr. etc... and that she was going to make sure the judge knew so that we wouldn't get to see the kids anymore.
(remember the survival technique I mentioned in my earlier post.?)

So, sk's were going home and telling BM that we did things we either didn't do, or making things we did do sound really bad. Such as saying that dad punished him for being a bed wetter,..etc.. etc..
When this has happened, this is what dh did...  for kids who can talk and reason this has worked for us.

Dh with SS...
DH ; did you tell your school and your mom that I punished you for being a bed wetter and you didin't want to come see me anymore?  

SS; No

DH; mom said you told her and the school that, so was mom being dishonest with me or are you afraid to tell me.

SS; shrugs

DH; you know I have never punished you for being a bed wetter..

SS; yes you have...

DH; when..

SS; refers to a visit when he got in trouble for wetting his pull up when he was awake and watching TV..

DH; Your right, I got upset with you for that, and if it happened again I would get upset again. You are too old to be wetting your pants when you are awake and I will not change my mind about that. I did not punish you, I told you that was unacceptable and that if it happened again you would be punished. And that was not about bed wetting.  

Dh; Do you want to stop seeing me?
SS;  No
DH;  Do you know that when you tell mom and the school that I did things to you that aren't true, they can make the judge say you can't see me anymore.

SS; no  (Keep in mind, he doesn't know BM's agenda, he is just trying to get ice-cream)

Dh; well they can, and I don't want that.. so if you are truly upset about something I said or did to you then I want you to come talk to me and see if we can work it out first. Okay?

SS okay..

DH and SS... lots of hugs and I love you Bud!!!

We have not heard any complaints from mom since that conversation.  We have had talks about things that have happened that he feels are unfair. We have followed through with him talking to us about the situation before he feels the need to run to mom.

Don't get me wrong here people... We have had hell dealing with all of this for the last 4 years and we still have a long way to go.  Like I said before, when something new comes up, we just try to figure out a way to calmly combat it.  

You said your children like the visits, so help them to understand that telling on you could get you taken away from them and that you really don't want that to happen. I don't know how old your kids are onedaddy, but maybe you and your children can come up with a list.. what are truly bad things mom, and doctor should be told about, and what are not bad things.
Truly bad thing.... Dad hit me and left a mark on my back!
Not a bad thing... I was getting my hand too close to the fire and dad hit my hand away from it.
(both could easily go back to mom or doctor as Dad Hit Me!!)
Once the kids have helped you make the list, maybe it will help them to not tell the doctor "dad hit me" because he kept the childs hand out of the fire. (Just an example)

Boy.. I'm really sorry that I keep saying so much in these post. This is something that is really close to my heart and it makes me sick that so many people have to deal with ex's like this.

I should really shut up now... I think I will change my name to jabber box..
KB

The younger ones are now 8, 9 and 12 but we started seeing them in 2001 after their dad had not seen them for two years. BM had already had a two year head start on the process before dh started getting visitation with them.
When we first started going and seeing the kids, they called me girlfriend number 7. When dh told them not to call me that, they said that is what mom calls her. BM was doing all she could to turn the kids against both of us.

We took the kids away from the house several times crying and screaming for their mother. Then shortly afterwards they would be fine. One thing you need to understand is that kids have to live with their parent. If they go home and bm finds out they had a good time, then they get in trouble or they have to spend hours or days defending themselves or the other parent, it only leads to serious problems with the kids. I have found that as a survival technique it is better for the kids to go home and say they had a bad time or cry when it is time to go so that mom won't get upset with them for enjoying themselves. That  makes BM happy and she will then coddle them and give them positive attention instead of the negative.

Your ss is picking up on this already at his young age. BM will complain that every time you and dh pick him up he cries, but in all honesty she loves it. Just put him in the car and go about your business. If she sees that it is having the desired effect, she will only do it more. Let her and ss see that you and dh are not going to allow their behavior affect your time with him.

Don't treat him any different then you did before! If you try extra hard then he will learn that the behavior is benefiting him on both sides. As he gets older you can try some of what I mentioned earlier.
"Your mommy is mad at me and daddy and that is ok"... sometimes grown ups get mad at each other for a long time, but we all love you and we don't want you to think that you are in trouble.
Remind him that no matter what he hears at home, daddy and you love him and that he should hold that in his heart.

Take a deep breath and ready yourself for the ride.

KB

I just wanted to say I understand what all of you are going through.

I also knew what I was getting into when I met and married dh, we were not able to have his 3 younger children at our wedding because he was still going to court just to gain vsitation of them. My husband has 3 older children who were BM's when he married her and he adopted them. The oldest SD attended the wedding and we had a part of the ceremony were we all, dh, me, my dd's and sd stood together at the alter, and after mentioning the other 5 kids that couldn't be in attendance, a prayer was said about the joining of two families, and that on that day we would become one family. We video taped the wedding and after dh won his visitation request, we had the kids to TX for 2 weeks and they got to see the tape. They were disappointed that they did not get to attend, but you could see the joy in their eyes when they heard their names mentioned in our ceremony. They ask us to play that part again.

BM told kids that dh wasn't their dad anymore and that they were to call him by his first name. She told the kids that he was their old dad and that he left,(after she divorced him)  so now her b/f was their new dad. (that was 4 years ago) Dh and I told the kids that he is now and will always be their dad! Two ysd's are both adopted and the youngest went to dh one day and said "are you my real dad?" dh said I am your dad and I always will be" BM jumped all over him and told him not to EVER tell the kids that again. She said they are very confused about being adopted and that she has told them that he is not their dad cause they are adopted. BM told kids he is only their dad legally cause the judge says. but he is not their real dad. Dh and I told kids again, as soon as dad adopted you, he became your dad and he will always be your dad just as much as Bio-son's dad. When the kids called him by his first
name he wouldn't answer them, not until they called him dad. They finally realized that he is not going to let BM replace him so easily like she has told the kids he would.

What dh and I have done is acknowledged what the kids go through and tell them what we will do to make it easier on them, but that when we do (_____) this is what we are really saying. Kind of like a code. We told the kids that when BM or OSS tell them that dad doesn't love them, don't agrue with them. (the kids were fighting a loosing battle trying to defend him. OSS would and still will punish them if they say they love their dad.) We said when they tell you that, this is what I want you to say to yourself. My dad said when they say he doesn't love me, Dad is saying he really does. We told them don't say it out loud, we don't want you to get in trouble. Just know in your heart that Daddy does love you very much. When dh calls to talk to the kids, if BM or OSS are there, they keep the conversation very short and won't say they love or miss him. Dh ask bio son why and he said that they get in trouble if the want to talk to him or say they love him. Dh said you know that is wrong..right and son said yes. So, dh told son, if they are there and you can't talk, I will know it is because you don't want to get into trouble. I don't want you to get into trouble either. I will just tell you I love you and if you say OK then that will be telling me you love me too... okay and his son said yes.

Point being we are trying to take the pressure off the kids. We are not bad mouthing BM or OSS, simply acknowledging we know what is going on and that we want to make things easier on them. dh is not going to make a seen about them not talking when he knows they are the ones that will suffer from it. The kids know if they take things home from our house that what ever it is will be taken away from them. So we always give them the option of taking things home or not. 99% of the time the kids say, they don't want to take things home cause they don't want to get in trouble or have them taken away. So we let them leave there things here for their next visit.

This is getting really long to I will stop now.. but I have many more examples of things that have happened and how we handled it. There was a time when dh and I thought having a good relationship with his children would be impossible because of the actions of their bm and oss, but now we know there is hope.

KB

My story is very long so I will tell you what I wish I had done differently.

This sounds terrible and I hate to even think that this would have prevented anything, but I wish I hadn't been so nice and I wish I hadn't encourage the relationship with BF and SM as much as I did.

I wrote a very long reply and just deleted it. While I was typing it came to me that there was nothing I could do that would have prevented it. I guess my only possible recourse would have been reverse PAS but I didn't want to be like that.

I was too nice, I gave them too much time, I allowed SM to be too invloved. I kick myself every day for all the things I did for those two. All the while they were working, twisting my DD's head against me.

The best part is that DD would still believe all their lies if she hadn't gone to live with them. Now she knows! She see's and I actually have more time with her then I did when I had custody.

The bad part, DD took a giant section of my heart and ripped it out and I will not give her another one. I will not let her or her father do that to me again. I Refuse.

Sorry I couldn't help. You would not imagine the anger that is flowing through my body as I type these things. I will never forgive them for what they have done.  

I have posted many times about this situation. Everything you read about PAS refers to the CP turning the kids against the NCP. I'm here to tell you it works the other way and it works very well. It takes longer but they eventually win.

I lost my daughter 2 years ago next month. I was CP for 14 1/2 years. BF and SM had been telling her since she was a small child when you turn 13 you can say you want to live with us. It took them 1 1/2 years longer then they wanted but the finally promised her enough and made me look bad enough and won.

DD sees the light now. They have not followed through with one promise. They completely lied to her about things and she sees.

I would be happy to share my story if you want to hear it. It has been a crazy road and the most painful thing I have ever dealt with or survived.

KB

Lawless,
You said you came here for advise yet you complain about the advise you get. If you want only to hear what you already feel yourself then you should just write in a journal and read it back to yourself.

BTW I am prepared for your angry reply.

I will give the same advise that others have given.

You said if the parents were together the child wouldn't be able to ignore one of the parents. That may be true but children who want to  run away from home. Is that legal?? No.. But they do it anyway. Parents can get the law involved and bring them back but will they stay as if all is well? No they will probably run away again.

My story is this. DD decided at 14 that she wanted to go live with BF. I allowed it and in our custody papers it states that my visitation is only what DD will agree too except for Holidays. (YES) the judge signed stating that a then 15 YO could decide if she wanted to see me or not.
DD and I had very little contact with each other for the first 10 months after she moved out. We would only have visits for a few hours on the few occasions that we saw each other. I did not call DD because she obviously needed space and time to figure things out on her own.

10 months after she moved out she called and ask if she could come spend the weekend with me. (I was shocked) DD came that weekend and has come to my house EOW since then and called me EVERY day sometimes 2 or 3 times a day since then.

So not only did the judge make it LEGAL for DD to make the decision. I gave DD the time she needed to figure things out and when she came back, she came back because she wanted to, NOT because I or the courts forced her too.

When DH took his ex to court to change his visitation for out of state purposes, the judge put IN THE ORDER that DH's 16 YO son could decide whether or not he wanted to have visitation with DH. (YES) the judge signed the order stating that a 16 YO could decided on visitation.

So, take it to court.... Your DH may lose his daughters for good. He will make them more angry by trying to force them into doing something they don't want to do, and more then likely the judge will say the girls ARE old enough to decide whether or not they see there father. If your DH wants to take that chance go for it. I think that would be a big mistake!!

Good luck!

KB

if it is your court ordered time then she can not deny it. Unless the order specifically states that your son can not be left with anyone else during your time with him. (That would be very unusual)

I will say this, my ex took custody by buying my daughter away from me. 3 months after the custody papers were signed he started working out of state. He is home right now and is planning on leaving again soon for most of the summer.
I am the bio mom and I have to say, the fact that he would fight to get her away from me, only to leave her for months at a time with her SM is total Bull S*** in my opinion. DD saw her BF more when I had custody then she does when he has custody.
I believe that children should primarily be with their birth parents. If you are not going to be available for the 5 weeks, then maybe you could take a shorter amount of time. DD's SM is thrilled to death that she has finally gotten DD away from me and caused life long damage to the realationship between a mother and her daughter. Don't play that game with your son.
I respect that you want to spend time with him and that he wants to come visit, and short periods of time with a step parent are necessary sometimes, but I don't feel that 5 weeks away from his mother and father is in his best interest.

Just my opinions.
KB

Get her to agree in writing. That way either she won't try to mess with it cause she will know it is in writing, or you'll have it in writing in case she does try something. It is better if you can hand it to her in person, have her sign it and give it right back to you.

Just write up a little agreement starting with
I_______(BM name) agree that for the weekend of (Blank) BF will pick up the kids at my home at XX:XX and will return them at XX;XX on (Day of the week) I understand this is a one time agreement for the weekend specified above and that it will not be necessary for me to travel to (blank town) to meet BF with the children as per our court order. Our signatures below show that we have both agreed to the above listed change.

You sign and date

________________ Type her name under the line for her to sign on and date.  


If she refuses to sign it, then you know right away that she has no intention of sticking by what she says on the phone.
In that case, I would tell her your going to pick the kid/s up so that you can take them to your parents, then go to the halfway point. When she arrives, get the kid/s then follow her back to her home town and go see your parents. You are driving all over the place wasting time, you meet her and instead of driving home, you drive to your parents.

KB

I could be wrong but I think I recently heard that the US passed a law that states you must have a passport to get back in the U.S.
This would include travel to Canada and Mexico. You don't need it to go into the other countries, but you need it to get back into the U.S.
Hate to see anyone get stuck in another country because they were not aware of that.

Check out this site for information
http://www.travel.state.gov/travel/cbpmc/cbpmc_2223.html

BTW I think getting a permission slip is a great idea, even is mom signs for the pssport.

KB

I don't know how long the summer school sessions are. It would mean going to a different district and I don't know how difficult that is to set up. In any case, if the session is longer then the time she will be here, then that would mean her bf would have to drive as much as I do after she goes home. We will have to see what happens.

Thanks for the suggestion.

KB