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Dear SadDadVT,
The depression that you are experincing is very normal. Divorce specialists will tell you that divorce/seperation from your children is akin to death of a loved one. It can be a living hell! But, what you need to realize that with time and help, things will get better. You  need to seek a support group, a support group of divorced fathers. And you need to seek this support ASAP. Use all of your energy and all of your time focusing on finding a support and others that are in simular situations as you. Fight with every ounce of energy you have to seek out this support. And often this support is free or at a very minumal cost. Some resources to find support are often offered via church/Phsycological organizations/state agencies/ect. And if you town or your local area does not offer such, then you may need to at near by larger city. And if you can't drive your self, ask if any of the group members of the group that you find would help in transportation. What ever and how ever you can find/get there/and recieve help, you need to do it now!! Not tomorrow, not next week, not in the future, but NOW!

The worst thing that you can do is remain isolated. And the first step in getting yourself better is reaching out for help (as you have done here). And again, the help you may obtain doesn't have to cost ton's of dollars.

Also, you need to focus on getting yourself help and getting mentally/emotionally better so that you may resume and become a very important roll in your children's lives. Remember that you are the children's "only real" father that they will ever have. Remember that you may be somewhat isolated from them now and may not be filling a daily need in your children's lives, but this will not always be this way. In the future your children are going to need you, need your wisdom, need your guidence, need to know you and need your love. But you will need to work on yourself so that you will be there to fullfill "your" children's future needs.

I'm not attempting to preach to you and not attempting push you. But I am attempting to give you advice that I believe that you were requesting/searching for. Also, I strongly advise that you seek what ever faith/religous doctrine that you may wish. But in this faith/religous help that you will find, that you come to understand that there is hope and forgiveness from God. And all you have to do is seek and ask.

Good luck!

Most children that are experincing PAS, and even some that don't, have a difficult time adjusting when coming to the non-custodial/part time parent's.

You state:"He seems nervous or apprehensive when we pick him up, like he's not sure about going. Once he is with us and settled he seems fine, it's just getting over the Friday hump that is so difficult."
This is very typical. Especially if the child's custodial parent is attempting to harm the child's relationship with the non-custodial parent(PAS). Most children because they have been told things by their CP about the NCP, and I mean told things either directly or indirectly, are not sure how to act and have a difficult time being accepting and being completely open to the NCP. Also, it can be just as simple of a situation, as the child just not seing the NCP for extended period (2weeks) and having to change the child's attitude and reform into the child's normal behavior while with the NCP.

If PAS is not occuring (doubtful from what you wrote) and the child is having a difficult time adjusting to being with you, it could be the same type of situation that children experince when seeing/being with an old friend that they haven't seen in a while. Often children will be somewhat stand-offish when seeing an old friend but warms up quickly and quickly regains the old friendship.

I have discussed this issue of a child returning to the non-custodial parent for visitation, with many people at this site. Most people agree that most children experince, to some degree, a standoffish, a quiteness, a struggle, and a change when the child comes to the NCP for visitation. This change when my kids were younger often occured in the 1.75 car ride with me from the their mom's to my home. Usually the first hour was filled with short answer's to simple question's to the children. Question as to what they had been doing or how was school going ect.! And then by the time we got close to being at my home, the children and I were laughing and the children had completely changed from when I originally picked them up. Yes, my ex had attempted PAS on both of my children for years.

Good luck and I agree with other's, get a second opinion or engage/insert yourself into your child's current therapist. Also remember Therapist are/can be like attorney's. There can be some very good therapist out there and there can be some really terriable ones.

very good and sound advice. But I would really like for you to tell everyone the reason that it's better/easier to work with the family that's around a narcissist and not attempt to cure or help a "true" narcissist. I have been told and have studied, that a narcissit that has totally developed this personality disorder, is not able or seldom able to receive theraputic help for the disorder. That most narcissist's seldom are able to see their problem(ie; "it's always somebody else's fault"). That most narcissist fail with any therapy, because they are not willing to self exam.

So, therefore it's better,  more reasonable, more effective and less time consuming, to teach person's(spouse's, children, business partner's ect.) how to deal with a narcissistic personality disorder.

Also, the advice of being true to your self and protecting yourself is true. But most victims of a narcissist, are neurotic and very giving of them self's. As these type of persons are prime targets of a narcssist. Therefore these types of persons also tend to "not" have tools and abilities thwart the control of a narcissist.

Again, from my experinces of dealing with a "true and fully developed" narcissist, is to distance yourself as far as possible from the narcissist. And I know when you are the former partner of a narcissist and have children with a narcissist, that it's very difficult to distance yourself from the narcissist. As distancing yourself from a narcissist is the "only" way I have found to not become easy prey, controled, and entangled in the narcissist's totally messed up world. This is not to say that you should totally abandoned your children that is still with the narcissist. Rather, just distance yourself as a form of self protection, so that you may be allowed to help protect your children.

Also, developing clear and defined self bounderies with the narcissist, is another tool of dealing with a narcissist. One of the few things I have found that dealing with a narcissist understands, is clear and consiece rules/bounderies. And that a narcissist will recoil move on to other easier targets when the person that is the target of a narcissist, stands up and sets bounderies and enforces self control. And a narcissist will change/seek other targets/victims if forceably and absolutely exposed to the narcissist's false attempted persona that the narcissist is attempting to portray.

Example: My ex was sleeping with every person that she could bed with. My ex was neglecting my kids. Leaving them home un-attended at night, while she pursued her next pariomont at the local bar/night club secene. When I had finally had enough of her exposing my kids to a steady stream of men brought into my children's home and negelecting the children. I went to my ex and told her (exposed her) that if she did not stop the behavior (set the boundries), that I would seek custody of the children. Within 2weeks, my ex moved herself and my children 3.5hrs away(recoiled and sought other victims/sources). Then my ex was able to find another new whole pool of victims in the new city/town that she moved to and do so without any interference and lesser chance of being exposed. In my opinion, 'classic narcissistic personality disorder behavior'. Also moved as form of punishment to me for exposing her or even crossing/confronting her behavior. Punishment in the form or moving thus harming/thwarting me and my children's relationship.

"Classic" and very predictable. The only problem I didn't understand the personality disorder until it was too late and my children were taken/moved away. Taken away to only be subjected to more grevious behavior by their mom and have no one able to view and expose the behavior. Oh sure, I could have called CPS(child protection services) or the police. But as with a true narcissist, CPS and police are no match for the clever and tremdous abilities of a narcissist. And the narcissist has the easy ability to portray it's self to be totally something that it is not or portray the situation to something totally other than what was actually happening. Thus often the usual total inept/un-educated/non-experinced CPS agent, is no match for the "ture narcissist".

Yes you are very correct about a true narcissist causing much damage and having the very easy ability of not paying a price for the actions of the narcissist's. A true narcissist, in my opinion, is a "very" dangerous person and will cause/extract great problems and harm to person's that are closest to the narcissist. A huge problem with a true narcissist is that they have "no" conscious or they believe everything is another person's fault. If a narcissist steals money from someone, they believe that they have every right to take the money because after all the person they stole the money from, either has plenty of money or the person actually owed the money to them. "As my ex wife did: She changed the amounts on medical bills on my children that she was sending and I was suppose to reimburse her for. My ex's reasoning for changing the amounts on the bills was that I already owed her and I had been deliquent on reimbursing her on prior billings. Also that I was wealthy and she was poverty."

The above example is a prime example of the way a true narcissist thinks and rationalizes it's actions. Also, once a narcissist is caught and made to be portrayed/publicly exposed, a narcissist will find other targets and will attempt continue to use or fraud other's. As my ex has done. My ex's new/latest victim is the state/federal government and her local community. My ex has obtained State Medicaid and Federal Food Stamps. My ex lied on the application for both, stating her income to be much lower than it actually is. The amount of income a person can have and be approved for medicaid is very low. But my ex wife own's a 2story home, w/swimming pool in backyard, in nice neighborhood, plays tennis for recreation 3-4times a week, takes expensive week long vacations about every 3-4months. But receives medicaid and food stamps? But my ex uses some of the food stamps to purchase grocery's and then prepares some of the food and takes it to the homeless shelter to feed the homeless.

A narcissist will also be totally self serving and only do what the narcissist believes that the public expects. Example: My ex took my handicapped son to rehab therapists. She was very public about how many times that she took son to therapists. She was very public about how many times that she had to take off of work to transport son to therapists. But very seldom did she actually attend the therapy sessions with son and basically did not have a clue as what the therapists were doing with son. The therapists had repeatdly requested via son for son's mother to attend the therapy sessions, so that the therapists could show son's mom exercises that son needed to do at home. After months of non-compliance of son not doing home exercises, the therapist discharged/terminated therapies. The above is a prime example of how self centered ex is and how a narcissist will portray that image of being a very good mother/provider, but cause great harm.

Once confronted with the facts of ex's failure with son's therapy. Ex rationalized that the therapist was at fault and that ex really did not like the therapist and that the therapist was to far away(across town). That a new/better therapists is needed(4th therapist). Even though the last therapist was highly recomended by a doctor and trained/specialized in treating son's type of condition. Son's current therapist is not specialized.

I am not the doctor, but I have been dealing with a "True" narcissist for a long 10yrs. My ex wife is a "True" narcissist. My ex wife has physical custody of my children. Before my ex wife and I divorced, we both took the MMPI testing during the course of our marriage and family counseling. We both subpheona each other's test results during the course of the divorce. My ex wife was attempting to prove via the test that I was clinically depressed and thus an unfit spouse and father. I found out via ex wife's test results that ex wife had a very bad personality disorder, Narcissisium. And her narcissism had fully developed.

There is a web site and author of a book that explains narcissism. The only advice I can give you for dealing with a "True" narcissist, is that if you can stay away from the person that is a narcissist, the better off your life will be. A "True" narcissist is a very sick person and will make any person's that has a direct realationship with the narcissist, crazy.

A narcissist has to have the approval and praise of person's that are close to them. This approval and praise is like the need of a drug for a drug addicted person. Also a narcissist is a very self centered person, and it's whole view of the world is about the narcissist/person. A narcissist views person's that are close to them and others, are only to be used by the narcissist. And a narcissist will use person's to only benefit the narcissist and other person's that the narcissist comes close to are viewed "only" as what they can do for the narcissist and serve no other purpose.

The narcissist I have been dealing with only views it's children as a possesion. The children have no other use or value other than to validate the narcissist's need to prove to others that this narcissist's is a good mother. That this narcissist will go to great lengths to prove to other's a myth that this narcissist is a good parent/mother. But behind the secenes and behind closed doors this narcissist is a horrible mother and has done horrible things to my children(neglect, verbal abuse, spend all monies for the narcissist's benefit not the children's benefit, ect.)

Also, a narcissist will lie, steal, fraud, and do just about anything it wishes. A narcissist does not have conscious. Also, a narcissist spends it's whole time attempting to portray something it is not. A narcissist is in a constant search and constant attempt to portray it's self something other than what actually the narcissist is. Also, a narcissist will lie, steal, cheat, or do just about anything to win. And I mean win at anything, win arguements, win court battles, win at any sports, win at any games, win the approval of others, win the praise of others, ect. ect.!

Also, a narcissist's does not like to be considered common or as a common person. A narcissist's always thinks it's self as
being/having  "grandeur".

To answer your question, 'How to deal with a narcissist?'
You stay away!

I am in the state of Mississippi. I have been divorced for 11yrs. At time of divorce my 2 children were 8yrs(daughter) and 5yrs(son). In this state it is judicial procedure that you are required to return to the same judge that granted divorce for "all" post divorce matters, unless the judge is un-seated or you receive a court order change of venue. At divorce my ex received physical custody and I retained joint legal custody. My post divorce history has been crazy, I have appeared before this same judge aprox. 10 times.
1. child support mod. (emergency trial) by ex
2. Emergency trial to order ex to provide medical for son. by me
3. Modify visitation=transportation (ex moved away). by me
4. Fraud by ex out of pocket medical expense + order ex to provide medical insurance. by me
5. Motion to compel for medical insurance. by me
6. Medicaid Fraud by ex. by me
7. Custody to me
8. Child support to me
Several other minor=contempt by ex/me and numerous cross complaints by ex.

I was awarded custody of my 2kids April/04. Main reason that ex had failed to provide for son (special needs child). And wishes of the children.
The children were at this time 14 and 17yrs old. Also, for past wrongs that ex had committed against me (fraud, failure to provide insurance, ect.)

In August/05 ex had finally brainwashed son in returning to her and son signed a parental election stating his wishes to live with her. His main statements to me and others the reason for this wish to live with mom is that he misses her and he/she have a special bond and no other reason given. And there has not been material change of circumstance of my custody. And son has not been fighting me to go to his mom's=son hasn't been running away ect.!

Ex via emergency motion attempted to gain custody. Judge denied to change custody on an emergency basis (no grounds proved by ex). Judge stated that custody issue would be required to be heard on a "full" trial basis and requested my ex to obtain a Nov/05 court date for "full" trial. The judge stated the reason for a Nov/05 trial date that if the merits of the case showed a change in Custody that it would be near son's Christmas Holiday and mid semester/half school year.

Ex did not immediatly pursue a Nov/05 court date with the judge's administrator. Ex in Oct/05 obtained a Jan.27/06 trial date with my mutual agreement. Second week of Jan/06 ex requested to me for continuance of the Jan.27/06 court date. I refused and ex then set an appointment time with the judge during the judge's ex-parte day to request the judge to grant contiuance.

Jan/17/06 ex and I (both pro-sce) meet with judge. I give the judge my motion for dismisal of request for continuance and in my motion I state reasons for dismisal, ex did not follow judges request for trial date, this matter has been hanging over me and my son's head, if continuance granted it will preclude me from making plans for son's spring/summer activities. Ex produced a copy of a jury summons for the circuit court of her home county for the week of Jan/27/06 as her reason for continuance. I also produced copy of supreme Court ruling stating that you are not allowed to set a court date in one court and attend a trial in another court at the same time(paraphrased).

Judge granted the continuance. Siteing that it would be in son's best interest that a continuance be granted due to that a later court date would be better timing with the end of the school year. Totally ignoring what I had presented and shown as problem with continuance. Now May/06 trial date.

Questions:
1. By judge granting continuance do you feel that she has already made up her mind regarding custody. or am I just reading to much into granting continuance. (remember this judge knows us on first name basis)

2. Isn't it true that a child's election/wishes were to live is "only" part of the determination judge will use. (son is 16yrs old, but is in the 9th grade and maturity level of his peers=14-15yrs)

3. If custody is given to ex, how do I protect myself from Child Support which ex has previously frauded me, nickled/dimed me, frauded medicaid, and refused to provide for children when they were in her custody and I paid $900.00 monthly in C/S.

4. Would I be able to gain a change of venue with this trial already scheduled. Neither I or ex reside in county that has present jurisdiction.

Grazer

I am in the state of Mississippi. I have been divorced for 11yrs. At time of divorce my 2 children were 8yrs(daughter) and 5yrs(son). In this state it is judicial procedure that you are required to return to the same judge that granted divorce for "all" post divorce matters, unless the judge is un-seated or you receive a court order change of venue. At divorce my ex received physical custody and I retained joint legal custody. My post divorce history has been crazy, I have appeared before this same judge aprox. 10 times.
1. child support mod. (emergency trial) by ex
2. Emergency trial to order ex to provide medical for son. by me
3. Modify visitation=transportation (ex moved away). by me
4. Fraud by ex out of pocket medical expense + order ex to provide medical insurance. by me
5. Motion to compel for medical insurance. by me
6. Medicaid Fraud by ex. by me
7. Custody to me
8. Child support to me
Several other minor=contempt by ex/me and numerous cross complaints by ex.

I was awarded custody of my 2kids April/04. Main reason that ex had failed to provide for son (special needs child). And wishes of the children.
The children were at this time 14 and 17yrs old. Also, for past wrongs that ex had committed against me (fraud, failure to provide insurance, ect.)

In August/05 ex had finally brainwashed son in returning to her and son signed a parental election stating his wishes to live with her. His main statements to me and others the reason for this wish to live with mom is that he misses her and he/she have a special bond and no other reason given. And there has not been material change of circumstance of my custody. And son has not been fighting me to go to his mom's=son hasn't been running away ect.!

Ex via emergency motion attempted to gain custody. Judge denied to change custody on an emergency basis (no grounds proved by ex). Judge stated that custody issue would be required to be heard on a "full" trial basis and requested my ex to obtain a Nov/05 court date for "full" trial. The judge stated the reason for a Nov/05 trial date that if the merits of the case showed a change in Custody that it would be near son's Christmas Holiday and mid semester/half school year.

Ex did not immediatly pursue a Nov/05 court date with the judge's administrator. Ex in Oct/05 obtained a Jan.27/06 trial date with my mutual agreement. Second week of Jan/06 ex requested to me for continuance of the Jan.27/06 court date. I refused and ex then set an appointment time with the judge during the judge's ex-parte day to request the judge to grant contiuance.

Jan/17/06 ex and I (both pro-sce) meet with judge. I give the judge my motion for dismisal of request for continuance and in my motion I state reasons for dismisal, ex did not follow judges request for trial date, this matter has been hanging over me and my son's head, if continuance granted it will preclude me from making plans for son's spring/summer activities. Ex produced a copy of a jury summons for the circuit court of her home county for the week of Jan/27/06 as her reason for continuance. I also produced copy of supreme Court ruling stating that you are not allowed to set a court date in one court and attend a trial in another court at the same time(paraphrased).

Judge granted the continuance. Siteing that it would be in son's best interest that a continuance be granted due to that a later court date would be better timing with the end of the school year. Totally ignoring what I had presented and shown as problem with continuance. Now May/06 trial date.

Questions:
1. By judge granting continuance do you feel that she has already made up her mind regarding custody. or am I just reading to much into granting continuance. (remember this judge knows us on first name basis)

2. Isn't it true that a child's election/wishes were to live is "only" part of the determination judge will use. (son is 16yrs old, but is in the 9th grade and maturity level of his peers=14-15yrs)

3. If custody is given to ex, how do I protect myself from Child Support which ex has previously frauded me, nickled/dimed me, frauded medicaid, and refused to provide for children when they were in her custody and I paid $900.00 monthly in C/S.

4. Would I be able to gain a change of venue with this trial already scheduled. Neither I or ex reside in county that has present jurisdiction.

Grazer

My daughter turns 18years old this year. My attorney advises me that daughter will be required to sign a statement, stating her desire to change custody. Also attorney advises that daughter will probably be required to tell the judge in person of daughter's desire to change custody.

My ex/custodial mom, is totally against the change and has already begain a full out verbal/psychological assult on daughter to prevent her from changing custody. My ex is not wanting to give up the generous child support that she recieves.

Questions:
1. What wording would you use for the statement that daughter would
    be required to sign? or some short ideas?
2. Do most judges, when asking a child of it's desire to change custody,
    would the judge ask the child in open court or would the questioning
    be done in judge's chamber?
3. If questioning by judge of child's desire is done in judge's chambers,
    are opposing/my attorney allowed to be in the room during
    questioning? Or can I demand that no attorney's be allowed while
    judge is questioning?
4. How do you prepare a child for such questioning? Not wanting to
    brainwash child, not wanting child to tell lies, not wanting child to
    anything but tell judge of it's true wishes. But also wanting child to be
    prepared and not be intimidated by judge, opposing attorney, or the
    whole scene of coming to a judge/court room and be fearful. Judges,
    court rooms, attorney's and the whole system can be very frightening
    and intimidating to even adults.

Do I just give up? I obtained custody of my handicapped son in April/04 from my ex/BM. Ex had custody for 7yrs prior to me obtiaing custody. Son is 16yrs old, but only in the 9th grade due to prior medical issues. Son maturity level is that of his peers (normal 9th graders 14-15yrs of age). And due to his medical issues and his BM babying him, he's maturity age is more that of a 13-14yr old in my opinion and opinion of other family members. I gained custody of son because of several reasons; ex failing to provide for him, his desire to come and live with me, that his mom had mid-school year taken son out of regular school and was going to home school but for 2month never actually implemented/facilitated his home schooling, failed to maintain his therapies, and refused to gain qualified doctors for son's care.

When son came to live with me I provided for him; several qualified medical doctors to follow his care, qaulified physical/occupational therapist, small private school, tutoring, encouraged his participation in school marching band, made sure envloved in church, ect. Son appeared happy for the first 6-12months of him living with me. Grades were good, he had semi-regular visitation with his BM, made friends, went on camp trips church/band. I attended to his every need and attended all activities. I did everything I knew to do to make his life happy and special.

In Summer/05 things begain to change. Son begain being somewhat withdrawn from activities/friends and begain wanting more and more time spent with his BM. His BM lives 3.5hours away. The last week of Summer/05 ex enabled/coached son to lie to me and not return for his final week of summer before school started. When son finally did return (gone whole week rather than just the weekend--a lot of background to this incident not given) son stated that he wanted to go back to live with his mom.

His mom allows him to be very lazy, allows him to do whatever he wishes, mom babies him, mom cudles/promotes his im-mature behavior, mom tucks him into bed (16yrs old), son/mom's favorite activities is watching movies-rented/at theater and dinning out and church. Son here has chores/restrictions/firm but loving home.

Ex has set a court date for a custody hearing. Originally set for Nov/05, then reset/delayed till Jan/06 and now set for May/06. Son has signed a letter of parental election stating that he wishes to live with his mom, brainwashing by his mom and son's mom babying him.

Son now has begun this behavior of acting like his mom has already gain custody of him and he's just living here until the court order is fullfilled. Son is acting to his friends at school that he's not going to be there next year and thus really not attempting to be a part. Son is demanding to attend all of his EOW visitation, giving up activities here that he normally would have died to go to; to be allowed to attend EOW visitation. Son has begun to pull away from me and his family here and all he desires to do is play video games/watch tv in his room(I know some of the video is age approperiate).

I have had long talks about his decision and his desire to go back and live with his mom. I have attempted to explain that his life wasn't so good when he lived his mom before and that the things that I had/have provided for him are things that will greatly determine his future and that in my opinion and opinion of other family members (ex own parents) that son's future/adulthood will greatly harmed by him going to live with his mom. That this is a very serious concern and not to be taken lightly or taken just because things will be easier for him and he will not be forced to grow up.

So, between now and the time May/06 court date comes, do I just give up and back off. Do I just let him go? Do I just shut up? Do I just let him experince this for himself? Do I just let him be up his mother's $&*@ and wrong nuturing of him? Note: his mother is the master manipulator and is very psycotic. Do I attempt further explain my concerns, thus further alienating him from me? (everything I say is wrong and everything his mom does is correct/marvelous) Do I even fight this in court, knowing in little over 1.5yrs he'll be 18yrs and can demand to go live with his mom then and legally be able to(even though he will be in the 11th grade)?

Feed back from persons that have had this happen to them would be greatly appreciated.

Grazer

Hi ya niki,
The main reason that I think son wishes to go back to his mom's is purely that his mom has been brainwashing him. Son doesn't have much of a backbone and doesn't stand up or fight things. Son would rather say what his mother wishes for him to say. Son's mom is also playing on his emotions. The main reasons son has stated to me that he wishes to return to his mom's that he misses her and that she and him have a special bond. When he states that "he has a special bond with his mom" he merely parroting/repeating what his mom has told him.

But as I have explained to him, I am his father and I have been trusted with looking out for the best interest of him. And in my opinion and the past behavior of your mom, it would not be in your best interest to go back to your mom. I told him that often parents are required to tell their children "no" to requests that they may wish for. I tell son also, just like if you ask me to let you drive the car over to a friends, even though you fully don't know how to drive yet nor have your driver's license.

Really glad to here your family is doing well.

Son has grown probably 1foot since he's come to live with me. Son is almost as tall as me and I am 6'4". Son is now playing the BIG bass drum in his highschool marching band. He plays the drum one handed. He doesn't march but rather plays standing still on the sideline with other instruments that don't march on the field. He thinks it's pretty cool. Daughter just completed her 1semester of sophmore year at college. She's majoring in Bio-Chem/pre-medical. This past semester she made a 4.0 and has cum. GPA of 3.7 I am very proud of her!

Come to chat sometime!

Grazer