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[have decided]

"My wife (mostly her) have decided that we need a break.  We have tried couples counseling and the last one suggested the same." - Chidad

Davy, please be assured that it does not appear that the counselor went so far as to suggest that it was the dad move who should move out, but rather all we can and should surmise from the posting is that the counselor agreed that the two need to move apart from one another for whatever reasons.

This is a good idea - that we look again at the thread, adhere to the content of the original posting and try to help Chidad with his query.

MomofTwo: Your balanced and thoughtful response is very helpful. We share vision of making sure people know their options and make decisions based on what they know about the legal system and about their own personal family dynamics. Pretty much, people benefit when they define their own hopes and dreams about being moms and dads while living apart.

I would only add that, just as we go shopping for clothing and try items on, we do the same for all the people out there who ask that we give them fees and provide professional services. "Try on" the attorneys, the mediators, the therapists, the financial experts, etc.

Family lawyers, by the way, tend not to choose family law for the big payoff. The work is stressful and low paying, so lots of them care about these families. Some aren't very skilled and others are jaded. Many have biases and make assumptions about gender stereotypes.

So shop around. Finding a conflict pro who knows what the words "transformative mediation" mean is important, too. An attorney should never act as a mediator (at the same time), and review attorneys for another attorney's/mediator's work is important.

However, in the end, getting the two parents who have to live with these challenging and inconvenient new schedules and lifestyles to MAKE the decisions by putting their heads together usually means longer term agreements and less conflict for the kids to witness.

Kids just want to love both parents without guilt. We've got to help them do that with our professional words and our personal stories.

Aaagh. Obviously I stink at working these posts. Please forgive all the extra stuff at the bottom.

Here's a sampling from a portion of the posts. The worst of the personal attacks are not sampled here. It's obvious that all posters are well-intentioned and very caring about other peope's problems. I'm just asking that you take a look at the tone and meaning of these words and ask yourself if this being really helpful or you worrying about the poster and translating your fears:

"Be VERY careful....this counselor seems to be on mom's side if she told you to leave the house."

"...entire system is against your children and you."

"If you are wondering what the legal ramifications would be, it's best to find an attorney to guide you."

"More than likely, to do so would open one up to being taken completely advantage of."

"... the person who wants to end the relationship should be the one to leave (if someone absolutely HAS to leave), if they want it so bad.  "

" If you leave you could end up seeing your kids four days a month and paying your ex out the wazoo while she lives in your house."

"I prefer to call it for what it is ...a bias and prejudice against the children and their father.  We don't exist to play kissy-face with government workers including attorneys."

" There's always hope  especially considering three adult chldren hammer her every chance they get."

"The best was the call on Mother's Day from SS.....to tell me he loved me, right in front of his mother!"

One other thought (or plea) - I know this is a forum mostly by and for parents living apart. However, please don't discount what other people can bring to the table assuming that they don't understand your dilemma and assuming they haven't experienced personal crises and horror.

It has been my experience that many fathers may have already worked your common sensual advice. Perhaps you have read a few magazine articles or a couple of chapters by another liberal and slanted 'thought' writer so you feel comfortable regurgitating your hoity toity philosophies.  To me, you seriously cross the line painting fathers about to lose their precious children (and vise versa) "with a chip on their shoulder", "angry", etc.  Essentially, in your own little sickness, you are bringing all of the ugliness of a possible family break down on the back of fathers. The lifes and well-being of children are at stake and you keep guessing wrong  .................. ... Go Fish.

It has been my experience that many fathers may have already worked your common sensual advice. Perhaps you have read a few magazine articles or a couple of chapters by another liberal and slanted 'thought' writer so you feel comfortable regurgitating your hoity toity philosophies.  To me, you seriously cross the line painting fathers about to lose their precious children (and vise versa) "with a chip on their shoulder", "angry", etc.  Essentially, in your own little sickness, you are bringing all of the ugliness of a possible family break down on the back of fathers. The lifes and well-being of children are at stake and you keep guessing wrong  .................. ... Go Fish.

It has been my experience that many fathers may have already worked your common sensual advice. Perhaps you have read a few magazine articles or a couple of chapters by another liberal and slanted 'thought' writer so you feel comfortable regurgitating your hoity toity philosophies.  To me, you seriously cross the line painting fathers about to lose their precious children (and vise versa) "with a chip on their shoulder", "angry", etc.  Essentially, in your own little sickness, you are bringing all of the ugliness of a possible family break down on the back of fathers. The lifes and well-being of children are at stake and you keep guessing wrong  .................. ... Go Fish.

Essentially, in your own little sickness, you are bringing all of the ugliness of a possible family break down on the back of fathers. The lifes and well-being of children are at stake and you keep guessing wrong  .................. ... Go Fish.

It has been my experience that many fathers may have already worked your common sensual advice. Perhaps you have read a few magazine articles or a couple of chapters by another liberal and slanted 'thought' writer so you feel comfortable regurgitating your hoity toity philosophies.  To me, you seriously cross the line painting fathers about to lose their precious children (and vise versa) "with a chip on their shoulder", "angry", etc.  Essentially, in your own little sickness, you are bringing all of the ugliness of a possible family break down on the back of fathers. The lifes and well-being of children are at stake and you keep guessing wrong  .................. ... Go Fish.

Essentially, in your own little sickness, you are bringing all of the ugliness of a possible family break down on the back of fathers. The lifes and well-being of children are at stake and you keep guessing wrong  .................. ... Go Fish.

The original post:

"We have decided that I would move near by, so I can be with the boys daily.  We are also working on a schedule for them to stay with me, but haven't gotten that far."

We need to be careful not to make other people's pain our own, nor assign our own tragedies to other people's future.

sladen,


Your femine side and bias for women is showing.  So now you're saying your book learned counseling experience overrides many many others that lived in reality as they stood in court rooms virtually with their hands tied behind their back and forced to observe government practices that would certainly lead to the ruination of their children.

There were many times I saw the pain in my children eyes with an absent mother but the pain was as great as with an absent father.  What will the lives of these children look like 5 , 10, 15 or 20 years from now if the father or mother leaves .   

This father and mother have been in counseling with an outcome for the father to be separated from his children thus starting the engine of the status quo which will likely get revved-up.  He will be the SOB no matter what. 

It may be unspoken but what is being said by just about everyone (except you) is to take the lead, stay at home, and work things out.  If SHE HAS TO to have a break it should be her that leaves.  So be it.  She probably should not have had children in the first place. 

 

Davy:
It would be a terrible breach of my professional ethics to advocate for someone based on gender, and exploring options is, in no way, equal to counseling. In truth, much of my job is specifically designed to help safe dads remain and become involved. I am glad to report that what I do is extraordinarily unbiased, balanced, honest and hard work.It is meant to heal and help, not judge and offer advice.

As for the sadness in your children's eyes, it is a sad thing, and I am sorry for any parents that find themselves dealing with such terrible situations. It's okay for you to offer your words when someone posts. However, Davy, I respectfully ask that you give me that same level of respect without making harmful and terribly wrongful assumptions that I have a bias for any person in any situation. Re-reading the posts may bring to light that the thread is not based in reality, and that there have been pretty expedient and gut reactions without the care necessary to read what what was truly implied vs. what was inferred.

gemini: Your reply asking that I "Please understand that the reason we are all here on these boards is because we have seen first hand what the family court system does to children and their parents, and we hope to help other people so that they won't suffer the same losses that we have," is very much heard, considered, and entirely understood.

I have dealt with over 1,000 cases such as those posted on these boards. My professional life is dedicated (via a non-profit) to working with precisely the type of fear, pain, bad history and lousy court experiences that are discussed. However, the worst thing a conflict professional can do (and part of why a true, experienced and decent mediator can reap such beneficial results) is because one never asks that folks use the personal experiences of other people to guide them. In fact, when asked if I've got kids and what my situation is during sessions, the answer must always be, " This is about you and your family."

Family dynamics are so unique, so very private and different from other families' dynamics, that assuming the result of going to court or working via improving the way people talk to one another depends on those unique individuals. It's fine to tell people your experience, but advising them not to move out, to move out, to file particular petitions and garner damning documentation may not be the best for them. It may fuel a fire that could have been tamped by opening doors, rather than closing them.

I am sorry you've had such a bad time, that you believe your situation is untenable. My work is full of darkness and despair, but without finding a way to hand people their own situations back to them and asking that they consider ALL options (both adversarial and otherwise), there would never be those good days where people call to thank this agency for helping get them out of the hell they faced and toward some hope and control.

Chidad, do what's right for you and your kids.

Kitty C: I'm glad you've taken me to task for my post. This gives me a chance to clarify and, of course, get a better understanding. It's important to note that I didn't respond to the original post with a suggestion to move out, but rather to begin the process with an open heart and open mind.

There is much pain in these forums, and many conflicts that seem intractable to the people who reach out. Please know that even the most high conflict situations can be dealt with better. There isn't a single case of conflict that is purely one-sided. We engage on many different levels, both subconsciously and in-your-face engagement. Telling the poster to immediately jump on the offense will only hurt the family.

Giving him hope, however, that all is not lost and that there is a chance he won't suffer the same ill-fate as others isn't arrogant or ignorant. It's only fair that he be told there are things he can do that will make his life better, without a mountain of legal bills and fighting, denied access to the children and certain heartache.

Most importantly, posters must decide for themselves what is best, and not be guided only by those who have had only bad experiences. These bad experiences are used in our lives to learn from, personally, but assuming that others will benefit from our own personal pain puts them on OUR angry roads. The poster needs to do what is best for him and for his family. Of course, legal advocacy was the only suggestion regarding making a decision to move out.

I likely could have constructed my post so that it was more clear, so thank you for pointing that out. It's never too late to change the way we talk to one another, never too late to help our children learn from communicating with respect (even if it's only one parent doing the hard work).

My wife (mostly her) have decided that we need a break.  We have tried couples counseling and the last one suggested the same.  We have 2 boys, 2 and 5.  Before I move out, I wanted to make sure I understood the ramifications my action would cause.  We have decided that I would move near by, so I can be with the boys daily.  We are also working on a schedule for them to stay with me, but haven't gotten that far.  Any assistance or guidance would be appreciated.

It's a good thing you've reached out, but how you should handle this is really something you have to look in your own heart and mind to figure out. If you are wondering what the legal ramifications would be, it's best to find an attorney to guide you. If you are wondering what the relationship ramifications would be, then please heed the following: the way you set the tone for the future communications depends much on how this is handled now. To become immediately adversarial and expect that the court system is only there to support a mother is an extremely difficult path. It will likely cause ongoing mistrust, anger and conflict. For you to be openminded and considerate of the other party will only mean that she will be that for you, too. It's sad that you're facing the end of a marriage, but it seems that you've put your heads together to make sure you have daily contact with your sons. This is a positive thing. Please be cautious when you begin to stand your ground, hold firm to a position, that comes from other people's bad experiences. You have a chance here to create two loving homes, rather than one home that wasn't working for everyone. So, to that end, do consult with an attorney you believe does good work, and do remember that placing a chip on your shoulder will only be the beginning of bad things to come.