Dilemma - request for advice (long)

[rm1759]

Hello, I would like some of your opinions on what I think is a pretty difficult situation.  First a little history, I am the NCP, with the "standard" visitation schedule - about 20% of the time with my 8yo DD.  BM and I were never married, and I was unaware of my DD until she was 3 1/2 yo.  At first we were amicable, but things went south very quickly when I started to push for more time.  Finally all communication broke down, and we began the court process, and settled in mediation last year.  Communication has not been good, and I believe there may be some amounts of PAS going on in the other house (my 7yo dd wrote a letter this summer saying that I didn't care about her, I only wanted to take her away from her mother.)  In any case, things with DD and I are very good.

Now to the problem.  BM has recently had trouble with her back.  From what I understand, she has been confined to her bed for pretty much the last 2 months.  I only know these things when DD offers the information, I do NOT prod her in any way.  Then I discovered this past sunday that BM had fallen has been in the hospital since last wednesday.  I was told then that she would be returning home "tomorrow" by her mother.  (BM and her mother live together along with DD).  I have spoken with grandma several times this week, each time I am told she will get home "tomorrow".  The conversation with grandma last night was actually quite amicable, and she did tell me that BM had a compressed fracture of 2 vertebrate in her neck, and sever lower back pain that they don't know what is causing it.  She is still in the hospital.

So, here is my dilemma, I told grandma that I am more than willing to help care for DD while BM is recovering, and I would relish the opportunity for extra time with her.

I have joint legal custody, and a right of first refusal in the CO.  Should I just go and get DD, and tell grandma tough, she can come back when BM is better?  The pros here would obviously be more time with DD, the obvious cons here would be that grandma and BM would be furious, and certainly tell DD that I was only taking advantage of BM since she was in the hospital.  If I just let it go, then there would be the possibility of making things more amicable in the future between BM and I, which *might* lead to more time (but that is highly doubtful, this woman has a fit if I ask for an extra hour of time with DD).

[backwardsbike]

Your CO states you have right of First Refusal.  You have a contempt motion to write as the Grandma has been caring for your child for god knows how long and you were never informed.  This stopped you from exercising that Right of Refusal.  I would go and get my child.  If you do not I feel they could use that against you at some future time.  It may establish some status quo not in your daughter's best interest of someone other than you taking care of her when BM is unable.

Please take the advice of one who is sadder but wiser.  Six years ago I too wanted things to be friendly.  Now I see my kids only 4 days /month inspite living only 20 minutes from them.  There is major PAS going on that I cannot prove and I'm loosing my kids.  And I can never get any info from schools or docotrs without a fight in court let alone any extra time.

Go get your child.  I say to he$# with being amicable.  You don't have to be beligerant, just firmly state that this is what the court order specifies.  If you need toyou can call the local police or Sherrifs for a "Keep the peace assist".  Have your Co with you.

Good luck let us know how it goes.

[shawneetears]

I have to agree....if you don't exersize that right, it does set a precedent.  But there are some things to consider.....would this interfere with the child's schooling?  How far apart are you?  If it means that the child would have to either miss school or enroll in a different school it might be best to work something else out.
Have you attempted to talk to the hospital?  If not, try to contact their legal liason first.... because of privacy rights, the information you can get is going to be very very limited but as secondary caretaker for the child you might be able to get a few questions answered through the liason.  You really only need to know one thing.....expected date of release. If they have not started discharge planning then it is not going to be "tomorrow".....  You need to know if she is expected to be discharged to home or to a rehab facility.  If they say they don't know then discharge is more than 48 hours away and you need to have the child with you; provided that will not interfere with school.
If it were me I'd try to see if you can simply arrange something.  You might need to remind g'ma of theCO; but try to come to some sort of arrangement.  Let her know that you understand how close they are and it isn't that you don't feel she's capable but that it is your responsibility as a parent. If she trys the "she's coming home tomorrow" thing....well that's great, then having with me this evening will give you time to rest and get everything ready.
But if g'ma still balks then you may need to see an attorney about contempt and interference.

[rm1759]

Thanks for the replies.

I live about an hour away from her school.  I could possibly do that for a week or so, but anything longer than that, and I would have some trouble at work.  She is also involved in numerous after-school activities, and I doubt we would be able to continue doing some of those, b/c of the distance.

I spoke with my attorney and he said I should just sit tight for a little while longer and wait to see what kind of information we get from them, they have been slightly more forthcoming this past weekend (I had my DD this weekend), but they still either do not know or are not saying what is wrong.

I have her next friday for  a week for the x-mas break, and she has school all of this week, my idea is to let her finish this week of school, then have her the following week as planned.  After which if I still don't have any more information, or if she is still in the hospital I was going to keep her with me, at least for the week she is out of school.  After that, if BM is STILL not out, then I would have to assume something more serious is going on, and then I should go down to the courthouse to get a temporary custody order.  (the obvious problem here is that by the time we get the hearing, she may be "cured" and then I've wasted alot of time, and pissed off the judge)

What are your thoughts on this?  If she has to go through extended re-hab of 2 or 3 months, would that be grounds to have custody with me, enroll her at a new school closer to where I live?  I am worried that if I go down that road, then when it finally gets in front of the judge I will look like I have tried to take advantage of BM...

Also, if I were to get her, and then 3 weeks later she goes back to her BM, I really don't think that would be good for DD, she is already stressed enough about her mother, I think she would be upset if I also took her from her grandmother, and then when she got back, I KNOW she would be told "See, I told he wants to take you away from us" I think she might be very hurt...

[MixedBag]

And yes, I'm an NCP too.

You mention first right of refusal -- does your decree give a definition to this?

See -- I don't agree because Mom lives with Grandma, so you're really talking about changing your daughter's normal home.  Grandma didn't move in after all this happened, and the child is in her normal bedroom.

I also wouldn't agree that it's in the child's best interest to change schools for what could be a short period of time (a few weeks or months for rehab)....

Save your pennies for a "situation" that you could win.

So I guess I would agree with your attorney...

Maybe the BM (and Grandma) would agree if you asked to have your daughter the WHOLE Christmas break and every weekend until mom really gets back on her feet.  (Keeping in mind that Mom and Grandma probably would like a day for "Christmas Celebrations).....

[dsm]

Given the situation that you describe where your DD has shown conflict of the time she is with you already, it would be to your advantage to try to work with the gma and BM - see to get the whole break from school and then weekends.  This allows your DD to retain her day-to-day schedule while you get figured out what is going on more with her mother.  See what you can find out from the gma, or maybe even the mom will be willing to talk with you - if you choose your words carefully so as not to have her go immediately on the defensive end.

Good luck!  Keep us posted!

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dsm - 34
DH - 37
SD - 15
LO - 9
BB - 19 months
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2 Cheap Entertainment cats - Snoop & Dagger - 5 years and counting.....

[Davy]

So in essence ya'll think gma's presence, influence, and interference (the bigger problems) overrides the father's ability to care for his daughter thus giving rise to non-compliance with the court order.

Perhaps it would be best for the child (and the BM) in the long run if BF and BM determine all issues and discount gma ... even in Pinellas county.  

[dsm]

There already is talk if I understand the poster's original message correctly that he is worried about the mom or gma saying things to his DD like he is trying to completely take her away from her mom.  What Mixed suggested, and I agree with - is to use the current order to his benefit for the moment and buy time.  The child's schooling needs to be taken into consideration and there are too many unknowns right now.  He posted that he is an hour away - if he were to take the child full time right now, you are looking at 2+ hours a day in a car just to get to and from school - and what if there are bad roads/weather.

It makes alot of sense to sit back, use the current order to request the ROFR for the break that is coming up and every weekend for the time that the mom needs to be in the hospital.  Use this as the opportunity to figure out what is going on with her health - what does the prognosis look like - can a compromise be made somewhere?  And true, that compromise should be made between the dad and the mom - although I'm sure there will be contribution from the gma given that she is with the child on a regular day-to-day basis.  

The poster here needs to keep in mind the best thing for his child - and while it very well could be that she should be with him, is now the right time to enter into that fight?  I don't think so - there isn't enough of a case yet.  However, there is enough to warrant him requesting and getting the extra time with his daughter.  And in the same time give his daughter the security and comfort that her dad is supportive of her relationship with her mom too.


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dsm - 34
DH - 37
SD - 15
LO - 9
BB - 19 months
------------------
2 Cheap Entertainment cats - Snoop & Dagger - 5 years and counting.....

[rm1759]

Thanks again everyone for your input.

The big reason why I am having so much trouble with this, is trying to determine what is in my DD's best interest.  She needs more time with her father, but every time in the past I have tried to get more time with her, BM always says no.  We have the "standard" visitation agreement, with only 2 weeks in the summer, and I had to fight her tooth and nail just to get that (we settled in mediation a little over a year ago).  In the past year, I have requested more time with DD over 20 times, and she has only agreed to 1 extra hour so far.  If I decide to use the ROFR, she will be extremely upset, and will no doubt still use it to bad mouth me to DD.  My gut says to just spend as much time with her as possible, and use every possible avenue to get it.

OTOH, as things are right now, BM and I are talking civilly for the first time in years, she (and gma) have both said they appreciate my being supportive of them while they go through this crisis, so I feel like I have made some headway with the situation there (BM called DD from the hospital this past weekend, and we spoke for a few minutes on the phone).  If I use the ROFR, I think I may destroy that progress, and the potential for more time in the future.  Not to mention, DD is going through so much stress right now, worried about BM in the hospital, then she will have to sit through the stress of the major fight it will cause when I keep her (I have NO doubt the police would be called in, not that they would do anything, but gma and BM would be absolutely hysterical) and then being told when she goes back to BM's what a terrible person I was to take advantage of them when BM was sick.  I think that would undo any positive that might come about her spending more time with me...

[Davy]

My perception is the BD is rational and focused on his DD while the BM's silence coupled with gma presence is compromising DD's opportunity to further bond with BD which has already been determined by a court of law.  Further it appears that BD is supportive of DD's relationship with BM while BM is clearly not supportive of DD's relationship with BD.

Would it not be great if BM said to BD ... "Can you work with me on an issue concerning DD ?  I am hospitalized and incapicitated for the unforseeable future even when I am able to leave the hospital. I believe it would be best for DD to be in your care at least for the remainder of the current school year".    No court cost or involvement. No attorney costs. Just a simple and practical agreement between two parents that has already determined by court order that would benefit a child.

I think BD will make the best decisions for his DD but I strongly believe there is a constant bias mindset against fatherhood to place females on a perpetual pedestal even on a shared / equal parenting website.  Why not fully support / encourage a DD / BD relationship ??

BTW, it's a 4 hour travel time.  1 hour to school.  1 hour to work.  1 hour to pick-up DD.  1 hour back home.  (BTDT at DD adamant request).

[dsm]

Don't word it that you are exercising the ROFR that is in the order.  You need to take advantage (YES) of the ground that you have gained with how she is being civil right now.  Use that.  Use her needing to be in the hospital, go to appointments, therapy, etc and say that you want to help her out so that she doesn't have to worry about taking care of your DD at the same time as doing all of these things.   Be sweet as you can - when you talk to her, tell her that you can tell that she is tired/worn out/etc - ask what does she need help with?  If she needs some errand run, ask if you can help her out and take DD with you.  I realize that it may appear that you become a door mat, but what you are doing is gaining very important ground - documentation ability - and most importantly - TIME WITH YOUR DAUGHTER.  It will also give your daughter a foundation to build from that you were there to help out - not to fight with her mom.  And that will go a long long way.  

Does that make sense?  Don't get technical with the wording - just keep requesting more time.  For the break that is coming up, I'm sure her mom will want to spend some time with her - and your daughter with her mom and gma too.  Can you see a way that would allow most of the time to be with you, but allow the compromise to be there for the sake of your daughter having time with her mom and gma too?  

Good luck!

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dsm - 34
DH - 37
SD - 15
LO - 9
BB - 19 months
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2 Cheap Entertainment cats - Snoop & Dagger - 5 years and counting.....

[dsm]

My opinion from what this poster has put out here for us, is that he needs to get some solid ground to build from first.  By all means, it would be best if the mom could separate herself from this 'ownership' mentality and be up front with this dad and allow things to change without a fight.  But from what I read, I don't think that is a reality here.  I think he needs to use some kid-gloves and be Mr. Nice Guy right now - give his daughter something to hold on to that she will be able to look at to know that her dad isn't a bad guy like she has been told.  He is gaining ground right now where the gma and mom are being more civil with him.  I'd hate to see him lose that by going too strong too fast.  I think he should try to work with what he has for tools right now - word things carefully so as not to tip her off to his big goal, but stlil stand strong and keep asking for the time.  Each time he gets a denial, it is another piece of ammo to put in his arsenal when the time is right to go in with guns blaring.

We've lived this too.  Before we got custody of my SD almost 3 years ago, we had a 6 hour round trip drive to make.  And her mom fought my DH at every single turn - unless we could make it seem like she was getting something out of it - she's selfish and we had to be a bit deceptive I guess to make it seem as if she were one-upping us.  And sometimes it probably was true that she got the better end of the deal - but then again, we did gain time with SD and that was the most important thing.  Now that we have custody of her, her mother isn't very involved and that has been really difficult for my SD and she is seeing her mom for her true self - without our doing or saying anything to influence that.

It takes time, and it take getting the documentation together, and patience.  
==============================================================================

dsm - 34
DH - 37
SD - 15
LO - 9
BB - 19 months
------------------
2 Cheap Entertainment cats - Snoop & Dagger - 5 years and counting.....

[StPaulieGirl]

Ouch!  That is pain.  No, you shouldn't just take your daughter.  It could be called kidnapping.  I think it would be a great idea for you to help out with taking care of the child.  Perhaps grandma will see that this benefits everyone, because BM is going to be laid up for weeks if not months.  Grandma will have to care for her.  If you live close enough, and your work schedule permits, you could pick the child up after school and help her with her homework, etc.  

You have to convince BM that this is not a ploy on your part to "steal" the child.  Would it be possible for you to visit BM in the hospital, keeping the visit short and on general terms?  She's going to be loaded up on the good drugs, so I don't know if it would get you anywhere.

Good luck!

[MixedBag]

n/m

[Davy]

n/m

[MYSONSDAD]

I have to agree, the custodial grandparents get so much say, where if your the NCP, the grandparents aren't even recognized...

They need to work this out, parent to parent and let granny mind her own business.

>Would it not be great if BM said to BD ... "Can you work with me on an issue concerning DD ? I am hospitalized and incapicitated for the unforseeable future even when I am able to leave the hospital. I believe it would be best for DD to be in your care at least for the remainder of the current school year". No court cost or involvement. No attorney costs. Just a simple and practical agreement between two parents that has already determined by court order that would benefit a child.<

TRUER WORDS WERE NEVER SPOKEN!


I would die of shock if the BM, in my case, even recognized my existence, she thinks she OWNS our son. Another case of walking paycheck, give me your money and leave...

"Children learn what they live"

[MixedBag]

I too think it would be best if mom and dad worked together while she is having medical problems.

And I still don't get Davy's comment that I'm biased.....or that my bias is showing.....I experience all hats, and when I read the post and situation, my main thought was going for custody or starting any kind of a legal battle in the court room right now is just not going to do the father any good.

When a CP becomes ILL, from my experience on the boards, that doesn't mean that the court will recognize a "significant change in circumstances" to warrant a change of custody.  That's what it takes.  Think about the people who have come here and said "Mom has cancer" etc....they never came back and said "Custody changed because the CP has an illness or is incapaciated."

It would be so much better if the Mom and Dad cooperated right now and if the Dad would get more time.  Skip what the grandma is doing -- if that part is so bad, let the Dad go to court and hold the Mom responsible for the grandma's interference.  Bet there's words in the state's codes (like there is for WV) that would hold the mom responsible for the grandma's actions since they co-habitate.  Yep, grandma isn't a party to the divorce, but since they LIVE together under normal circumstances, bet the court would hold mom responsible for grandma's interference and actions.  That's another whole different subject.

Pick and choose your battles wisely in the courtoom.....

[MYSONSDAD]

I was agreeing with the comment made about granny's interference. I also agree that the parents should work this out between the two of them.

Even the fact that the BM lives with granny, does not give her [the granny] parental rights when it comes to the child. This father should be given a chance and opprotunity to take care of the child while the mother is ill.

"Children learn what they live"

[rm1759]

Well, things are not going as well as I had hoped.  BM is still in the hospital.  There was a therapy session scheduled for today (thursday).  I told grandma that I would be taking DD to the session (I have her thursdays anyways, so it will be during my normal time).  BM called today and told me that since she was unable to go to the session, that I couldn't take DD there.  She was going to call and cancel the appt.  I told her that I would still take her to it, and that she doesn't need to worry about that, she just needs to be concerned with getting rest and getting better.  She did cancel the appt, but I called the office and told the Dr. that I would be keeping it.  He agreed that would be the best solution.

Then she went over the christmas parenting time schedule to make sure we were both in agreement with how the time is divided.  Her side of the conversation was not civil, and she told me that I am not to discuss anything with her mother anymore (I'm still confused where this came from).

Needless to say, when I bring it up to her that I want to keep DD for the second week as well, it will NOT go over well.  I will present it nicely and tell her that she needs to concentrate on getting better, and that it is not gma's responsibility, but from past experience I know it will be a HUGE fight.  (She is still very pissed b/c I kept DD for an extra day while hurricane jeanne was coming through our area, and she wanted to drive in it to get DD in the middle of the storm!)

I have spoken with my attorney, and he says that I should just keep DD for that next week, if BM is still incapacitated.  We have it in our agreement that the BM does the pick ups and the end of my parenting time (I drive in the beginning, I got that from this site, I think it was MB that had suggested it at some point, so thanks for that one!), so my basis will be if she's well enough to drive the hour to come get her, she's well enough to take care of her.  In the past I have had no problem with gma picking DD up when BM was busy, and my wife has picked up DD once from her place

I will be Mr. nice guy in talking to her, and tell her that I am only trying to help out, but I know that it won't do any good.  She is convinced that I want to take DD away from her.  

Oh, and as a side note, to one of the previous posters, BM has also been dealing with cancer for 3 years now (in remission, I believe, she does not tell me anything about it), she says her current situation is not related to that (and I think I believe her).  But I am sure this also contributes to her stress about the situation...

Should I start a different thread with this update?

[Davy]

to grandmother's house we go...wouldn't that be great ?!?!  MSD clarifed quite nicely (above) I think.

I was not trying to be pointed.  Just about everybody (including myself) naturally has the mindset that "oh !  everything is great .. gramma there's".  BM certainly counts on gma's presence to deprive DD and BD and the court may have the same view ... all the while BM  and gma team up to insure DD is an emotional basket case (sorry BD).

I think BD is doing a great job.  Let's remember he was not aware of this little girls's existence until she was over 3 years old.  When my DDDDDDD was that age she was definitely Daddy's girl and may be the ONLY reason she is still alive at 35 yo.  

I wander if my son was divorced and incapacitated (hospital or not) and resided with dear ole dad along with his DD.  You better believe it likely that BM would get and keep the child ...no questions asked.  For gawd sakes ... we could never have grampa caring for the DD...sounds like a CPS dream case.  

DO YOU GET IT YET ... I think BD, DD, BM, you and me and everybody should deny gma existence ... think in the long term what is REALLY best for DD ...hell there's schools everywhere.

I encourage BD to continue to be a rock.  Who gives a damn if BM and gma brow beats with trying to take BD away.  BD knows in her heart  and hopefully her mind the truth.  

[Davy]

oops !  just bumping your post.  I think thread is fine.

It may be a nice jester if you took some brownies (made with exlax bars) to BM .... you know .. wrapped in Xmas paper and all.   It may really help her get better.

[MYSONSDAD]

I worked at a place with a night guard who was stealing lunches from the lockers, we made him brownies, he spent a week in the hospital...

I guess when your full of sh!t, sh!t happens...

"Children learn what they live"

[MYSONSDAD]

In my opinion only, being nice does not get you far. Many have tried and failed.

>I have spoken with my attorney, and he says that I should just keep DD for that next week, if BM is still incapacitated. We have it in our agreement that the BM does the pick ups and the end of my parenting time (I drive in the beginning, I got that from this site, I think it was MB that had suggested it at some point, so thanks for that one!), so my basis will be if she's well enough to drive the hour to come get her, she's well enough to take care of her. In the past I have had no problem with gma picking DD up when BM was busy, and my wife has picked up DD once from her place<

Listen to your attorney...

"Children learn what they live"

[Davy]

I would like to add an opinion concerning gma being a "helping hand" to pickup DD when BM is occassionally busy.  I think that is fine and dandy !  

The difference at this point is that BM is unable to adequately care for DD when she returns home so Dad IS standing in the gap for DD's well-being (and irrelevant of gma's insecurities or loneliness).  Further, I think Dad's behavior and words would serve as a role model for proper parenting.  Parent first ... screw the NCP ... visitor titles because that is what is best for the child.   BD and DD will be OK !!!

[StPaulieGirl]

Cancer too?  No wonder she's paranoid.  I think the remark she made regarding talking to grandma indicates that perhaps grandma sees the wisdom of more involvement on your part.  Okay, from what I get from your posts is that BM has always been difficult to deal with.  If she's on heavy duty painkillers, she's going to be even more ornery.

Even though your daughter is 7, she is old enough to appreciate your concern and love.  She also sees that you are trying to ease the burden regarding her mom's health issues.  

People here are right about being nice and cooperative.  It can get you screwed.  Listen to your attorney.  Having said that, you could always sit down with BM and grandma, and explain that even though you did not find out about having a child until she was 3 yrs old, you've let go of any anger that you felt at the time.  Explain that you want to do right by your child, and in this case cooperating with her mother and picking up some slack until BM is back on her feet.  Point out that the child is worried about mommy being in the hospital, and with you pitching in to help out, it should ease her mind and make her feel more secure.

Well something like that.  Try and get through her paranoia, which is probably caused by her health issues and the meds.  

Good luck, and I hope you can get through to her.

[4honor]

Just a side note... I lost my step mom several years ago because cancer had eroded her bones enough (supposedly in remission for 10 years) to the point that she broke her collar bone from a short fall and it never healed... it just seemed to spread the cancer further around her body.

If BM has actually had cancer, then she may be at risk now for a recurrence.

And if she is anything like our PBFH, she has some new supposed disease every other week.

[rm1759]

Not too much has happened, but I thought I would post an update in case anyone wants to know what happened.

BM returned home dec 23rd.  She has a bed from the hospital at home.  Apparently she has 5 (maybe 7) compression fractures in her back.  She says that she will be back to normal in 3-4 weeks.  This is what has been going on since the middle of october.  She keeps telling me she will be back to normal very soon, but it is now going on 3 months since I have actually seen her.  (I have spoken with her on the phone).  I have the feeling they are not telling me the whole story.  Gma is still doing all of the dropoff's and pickups, and I continue to ask for more time with DD while they get through this difficult time, but I have yet to actually get to see her for anything outside of what is in our CO.  I did not force the issue on the second week of X-mas, even though the CO does state that the only people to do the drop off/pick up are BM and I.

I have done searching on this and other sites, and confirmed what mixed bag has said, I have not yet found any cases where there was any change done for debilitating physical reasons, and so I am still going to follow my attorney's advice, continue being supportive, and not try to force anything until I know more...

Thanks again for all of the info!

[Avaya]

Should I just go and get DD, and tell grandma tough, she can come back when BM is better?

That's EXACTLY what I'd do.  Or better, I'd wait till the next visitation and then just keep her till BM is able to care for her.  Cripes, it's insane how BM's will go to any length to have someone other than dad care for their child when she's not able.  When our Bm was in the hospital with pregnancy complications, SD stayed with grandma.  Recently when SD had her wisdom teeth removed, SD stayed with grandma, even though dad had the entire week off of work.  It's crazy!

That is your daughter and even without FROR or joint custody, I'd have her in my care if the other parent wasn't available if it was me.