Welcome to SPARC Forums. Please login or sign up.

Mar 28, 2024, 09:33:38 AM

Login with username, password and session length

moved away.

Started by Im-a-dad2, Jul 22, 2009, 05:49:13 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Im-a-dad2

There's more to this story, but I'm trying to leave out details for privacy...

A couple years ago my ex moved out of state with our child. The court order sad she had to get my permission or the courts permission first, but she moved anyway. (State law says she couldn't move without permission too.)

It was a long time before I found out where they were living. Since my ex has sole custody, I didn't think there was anything I could do about her moving. Stupid, I know.

Recently I filed a motion to find her in contempt and to return our child back to this state.

Because its been so long since they moved (2 years), I'm nervous the judge will let my ex keep our child with her in the other state.

Can a judge disregard state law and his own court order? If that happens, I know my ex won't ever take the court order seriously again...

Has anyone ever been through this?

MomofTwo

What state are you in? Do you still reside in the original state? What specifically did your court orders specify about relocation? How old is the child?

From what I have seen, and each case would be different, but you have waited too long to fight this and expect a return of the child.  Your silence regarding the move and not doing anything immediately  will be construed as agreement to the move.

It didn't matter that you didn't know where they were, you had the local courts as a remedy at that time to file a petition for the immediate return of the child. 

The child has been living in the new area for two years...the courts will evaluate how it is in the best interst of the child to be uprooted but I have never seen the courts mandate a child be returned after that long. 

Your other details may be pertinent.

Im-a-dad2

2 years ago we had a trial on visitation and custody. At trial my ex tried to add a motion to move. The judge denied it and he took our case "under advisement" for 2 months.

During that time she sent me 2 separate emails asking me to agree to the move. I DID NOT agree, because she was not moving to benefit our child, and I filed a motion to restrain. The motion was not heard because the case was still "under advisement."  The final judgment says she was to get mine or the courts permission before moving. She was also awarded full custody so that's why I thought she had the right to move.

Like I said before, there are many details that I do not want to post. Please let me know if I can pm...

snowrose

First off, you can never guess what a judge will do.  Most of the time, however, family court judges will make decisions based on what is best for the child.  Given that the child has now been in the other state for 2 years, I'm guessing that the judge will not try to force a move back.  The new state has had time to become the child's home and the judge would rather not upset the child more.

Wait and see what the judge will do with your motions.  The contempt can be a small thing and the judge might see that through, allowing something like a fine.  Again it's a guess because you can never know what a judge will do, but I don't think that the judge will force your ex to move back with the child.  The child is use to being there.  You yourself have survived for 2 years with the child being there.  There's no immediate reason the child should be uprooted again.

If you find that the judge won't force your ex and the child to move back, you might apply for some kind of visitation that will give you reasonable time with the child.  Maybe something like 4-6 weeks visitation time during the summer and every other Christmas vacation with you and the ex meeting halfway to exchange the child.

Im-a-dad2

I realize my child may have grown comfortable living there. But where I live, this is my child's home, where they lived for 6 years, wheres there's family, friends and much more. I believe it would be best for my child to come back, especially since there's more benefits here, like better schools for example.

Also, I do not believe my ex makes the best decisions in regards to our child. I know her move was self-centered - she never proved the schools or neighborhoods we better, nor did she obtain a better job. She really only moved because of her new boyfriend, and I do not think its in our child's best interest to remain (with my ex) in the other state.

Being a contempt motion, I know the burden is on my ex to prove why she isn't in contempt. But I'm wondering, should I also be prepared to show how relocating our child back here will be better for them??

MomofTwo

Curious....why didn't you file for an emergency return of the child two years ago when she took him and left?  Why have you waited this long to do anything about it?   Have you ever tried to see your child in these two years? Do you have proof of attempted visits? All of this will weigh with the courts. 





Im-a-dad2

Basically I misunderstood the court order. I thought that since she had physical custody, she had the right to move. (Probably would've helped to have a lawyer to explain this was wrong, but I did not have one and now I wish I did.)

Recently a friend read the final judgment and pointed out that my ex moved against the court order and state law. That's why I filed the contempt.

I have tried to work with my ex, and have seen my child a few times - on father's day and birthdays - but my ex won't make a visitation schedule. She actually told me to take her back to court for it. So now I am...

Please understand, this isn't out of spite. I do believe my child would be better off here, and it would allow for BOTH of us parents to be involved, not just one. Also, I'm not trying to take our child away from my ex. She still owns a house here and could easily move back (with her BF too, the house is big enough), and could even obtain her old job.

Davy

Im-a-dad2

In my very strong opinion the court will and should focus any hearing on  matters in your complaint namely the child has been removed illegally from the state and has substantially interferred with the childs natural right to have access to both parents.  Like you said she is against state law and totally not in compliance with the actual court order.  These statues are clearly in black and white and do not allow for the court's bias and prejudices discretions to enter in. 

It does not matter how long ago the child was snatched or how often you've seen the child,
if you still live in the state, etc, etc.  From what you have posted, you have done absolutely nothing wrong or illegal.  What you should take away from this is that there will probably be others to make up things or try to find something silly about you that has nothing to do with the civil and maybe criminal charges (see Criminal Interference statues by state in the articles section on this site) against the other parent.  The matters are very serious.  These statues were not pulled from thin air but rather the real life experiences of children in the same circumstance as your child.  This is the truth. 

You need to understand the other parent can move any where in the world they like but is substantially prohited to moving a child.  Also, do not comply with or entertain any legal process from the abscounded to state ... your state is the child's home state and has jurisdiction over all parties.  The other state has no jurisdictions over you or any existing court order and any other custody type (ie visitation) process. 

Another thing, for any initial Comtempt action or removal from the state actions you and your child may be best served by a rule-of-law attorney from out of town that is more likely to hold the court to the legal statues and won't have another case in that court the next day..  In other words, other than a local, non family law attorney that is accustomed to abiding by a judges status quo.   

Hope this helps.

Im-a-dad2

"Davy wrote - You need to understand the other parent can move any where in the worldthey like but is substantially prohibited to moving a child.The other state has no jurisdictions over you or any existing court order and any other custody type (ie visitation) process.  "

I am aware of that (not being sarcastic here, I'm just stating.) Thanks to this site I became familiar with UCCJA, and filed everything here in the home state. I am doing this pro se, and have tried my best to be educated on the laws that apply to my case. I have my facts and evidence to support them.

But I have questions -

1. At the hearing, should I ask for our child to live with me?(I did not stipulate that in my motion and wonder if I should have...)

2. Should I bring a parenting plan to submit?

catzeyezz4u

Why was she awarded sole custody without father being awarded at least supervised visitation of some sort?  I was always under the impression having sole custody was fairly difficult to get.

MomofTwo

What did you file contempt for? Moving against court order? Interfering with visitation? Why does she have sole custody? Did you have any court awarded visitation ordered before she left?  These questions are all very important. If you had no court order for visitation, then she didn't intefere with visitation by moving. 

Does she have an attorney?




Im-a-dad2

#11
I did have supervised visits.

I previously had (court ordered) visitation schedule with my child for years. But when I met my current significant other, my ex started slinging allegations and she filed a motion for supervised visits.

After awhile, I didn't believe my lawyer was doing the best he could and fired him to get another. I did not find one in time for trial, and was not ordered a regular visitation schedule.

When my ex moved she said we could make visit arrangements. Obviously that seemed a better alternative than supervised, and/or going back to court again. My ex has allowed me to see our child maybe 5 times since they moved, for a few hours each time, but obviously its just not enough. Also, my ex won't agree to any kind of schedule.

So I filed a motion to enforce final judgment and adjudge in contempt. I also filed a motion for visitation.

Yes, my ex retained her attorney from when she lived here. They have not filed an answer to my motions. My ex also refuses to talk to me (or even let me talk to our child.)

MomofTwo

I am sure money is an issue, but the best thing you can possibly do is retain counsel.

You are going to have a battle on your hands.

There are several things going against you ---

1) She has counsel, you don't.

2) Custody battles are not do it yourself cases, although it can be, her having counsel will make this very difficult for you

3) You did not file timely petition for contempt for interferece with visitation

4) The visitation you had was supervised.  The likelihood you going from supervised visitation to the child residing with you is not good.

5) You waited a long time to file.  Despite what other posters will say, I am not referring to jurisdiction or anything about that, your silence and lack of action will weigh against you.  You knew to try to prevent the move, so I am not sure why when it was not ordered because the case was already under advisement you didn't follow up immediately when she did move.  You demonstrated some understanding to try to stop the move and when it occured, you did nothing to follow up. If you thought sole custody permitted her to move, then why did you try to prevent it?   

6) A savvy lawyer will take this "When my ex moved she said we could make visit arrangements, Obviously that seemed a better alternative than supervised, and/or going back to court again...." and twist it to show that you were in fact ok with the move after it occured. As well as "My ex has allowed me to see our child maybe 5 times since they moved, for a few hours each time, but obviously its just not enough" shows she was not preventing you from seeing the child when you attempted to.   You were only ordered for supervised visits.  Anything more than that she did not have to do. 

I am not being negative to you or your case.  I think your best bet is to at least confer with local counsel.  This is going to be very difficult for you.  What would seem likely is you will resume your supervised visits and need to set a schedule.  The courts could do more sanctions for her moving, but the fact you had supervised visits before will not likely result in a custody change.




Im-a-dad2

I didn't take it as you being negative. I did want an honest opinion on my situation.

Question -
1. (again, not trying to be rude) How does supervised visitation work over long distance? (2 hours away)

2. If the judge does order it, can I at least ask for it to be with a family member? Last time it cost me $160 for 2 hours (at the provider I went to before for supervised visits, each visitation had to be a minimum of 2 hours or more...)

ocean

How many supervised visits did you do before they left? Can you get a letter from them on how it went?
They may have you go to her area and meet at public place for a few hours..you can ask for anyone to supervise but the court will have to okay it...could be a park, restaurant, but after XX amount of times then it should be moved up to full days unsupervised and then to weekends in your house....

Im-a-dad2

I had 4 official supervised visits, since it was only for a few months before trial.

Recently, each time I visited, my ex was present and occasionally my father (on Father's Day and my kid's birthday.)

That leads me to this question:
1. What if, before court, my ex and I agree to unsupervised? I created a visitation plan for if my child remains in the other state. If my ex agrees to it, I think I can submit it to the judge for approval...Perhaps I should try that?

catzeyezz4u

I just spent most of the year going thru the court system and if you can both agree on something outside of the courts, it is a lot easier and much less expensive.  Just make sure it's very explicit to avoid any loopholes.  I had spent a lot of time here in the forums before actually appearing in court and found great information to be included in our custody agreement(but I also had legal representation).  Most of what I found in here was standard but I did request that some specifics be added after hearing other people's experiences.

snowrose

IMO, MomofTwo is making excellent points.  Listen carefully to what she's said.

You say you're a long distance away but I see you've qualified this to 2 hours away.  Really, that's not bad at all.  Lots of folks commute that distance on a daily basis.  I know quite a few folks who are going further than that every other week or weekend to pick up and drop off kids.

I think you need a lawyer, even just a free consultation might be enough (for now).  Since your ex has been in another state for 2 years, she may now have residency and the child may now be under jurisdiction of the other state.  You need an attorney to determine which state has jurisdiction. (You may get a better feel for this when the judge looks at your contempt motion.  Actually, I'd suggest that you ask the judge at the time the motion is heard which state now has jurisdiction over your child.)

You'll also need support to try to go beyond the supervised visitation.

You haven't really given us any good reasons why your ex shouldn't have custody of the child.  Tell me she's a prostitute who is picked up by the police every few weeks.  Tell me she's taking illegal drugs and has had the police raid her property numerous times.  Those are the kinds of things you'd usually need in order to get custody from her.  Or extensive proof that she physically abuses the child.

I have a friend whose ex stole his two children and ran off with them to another state within the last year.  She was found.  All three of them were brought back.  The mother was kept in jail for a time.  But in the end I'm sorry to say that the mother still got custody of them and was able to move them to another state.  So, realize that unless you have strong reasons why your ex is completely incapable of raising your child (not just that you don't like the way she does things) chances are that things won't change much - though if you go to court you should be allowed some type of visitation eventually.

Im-a-dad2

So, at the hearing I got a temp visitation schedule, and we go back in 90 days to discuss the contempt & joint legal motions, and also to set a permanent visitation schedule. I will let you all know how it goes.

I am just so happy! I cannot wait for the first visit!

Also, the Judge was not happy with my ex at all, because of her moving and her attempts to keep me from our child. It was nice to finally hear someone tell my ex she was wrong.

snowrose

Quote from: Im-a-dad2 on Jul 31, 2009, 06:08:38 AM
So, at the hearing I got a temp visitation schedule, and we go back in 90 days to discuss the contempt & joint legal motions, and also to set a permanent visitation schedule. I will let you all know how it goes.

I am just so happy! I cannot wait for the first visit!

Also, the Judge was not happy with my ex at all, because of her moving and her attempts to keep me from our child. It was nice to finally hear someone tell my ex she was wrong.

Glad to hear it!!  It's always good when you get a judge that's on your side. 

The next hurdle is actually getting to visit.  Let us know how it goes!

Davy

Back in the days when mother were awarded "sole"  97.5% of the time the mother lost her sole for some of the same behaviors.  No drugs and she wasn't a prostitute who was picked up by the police every few weeks.

In my opinion, if gaining access to your children is considered a "hurdle" by anybody then that in itself is cause for her not to be around the children at all.  It should not be tolerated as "normal" when it is sick and very abnormal.

Im-a-dad2

Fortunately the Judge was, um, very pissed that my ex wouldn't even send me a measly report card, much less involve me in anything. The judge said to my ex: "He is still the child's father! He needs to know what's going on!"

I don't think gaining access is going to be a hurdle for me anymore.

Davy

E X C E L L E N T  ! !   good job.  congrats.

Kitty C.

Quote from: Im-a-dad2 on Jul 31, 2009, 09:30:45 AM
I don't think gaining access is going to be a hurdle for me anymore.

I'm extremely happy that the judge ruled in your favor, but given your ex's history, don't expect her to roll over and capitulate.  I would imagine that she's probably pretty pissed off that the judge is telling her what she can and cannot do with her children (HER way of thinking).  So be prepared.....she may not automatically let you see the kids or give you the information you're entitled to.  Which means you just can't sit back and think everything wil be fine now.....you still need to document EVERYTHING....what happens and when, good or bad.  So that if she does screw up again, you have ammo to take back to court so that the judge can ream her another new one..........

Good luck and enjoy your time with your child! 
Handle every stressful situation like a dog........if you can't play with it or eat it, pee on it and walk away.......

Im-a-dad2

Oh, trust me, I know all about documenting. I've been a frequent guest lurker on this site for a long time until I decided to post recently.

Also, the Judge specified that if my ex does slip up, deny visitation, meddle or be difficult in any way, that I am to bring her back to court immediately, and (get this) he would consider changing physical custody.

Now, I'm sure it was said only to scare her into behaving, but still, the look of horror on her face was nice enough.

I am not counting on her to give me info about our child. I am preparing to be able to convince the judge that he should give me joint legal, so I can get the info from the school myself. (FERPA) Besides, I'm going to know a lot more about my child now that I can actually talk with my child, without my ex hovering over and monitoring every word they say to me.

snowrose

Quote from: Kitty C. on Jul 31, 2009, 10:26:25 AM
I'm extremely happy that the judge ruled in your favor, but given your ex's history, don't expect her to roll over and capitulate.  I would imagine that she's probably pretty pissed off that the judge is telling her what she can and cannot do with her children (HER way of thinking).  So be prepared.....she may not automatically let you see the kids or give you the information you're entitled to.  Which means you just can't sit back and think everything wil be fine now.....you still need to document EVERYTHING....what happens and when, good or bad.  So that if she does screw up again, you have ammo to take back to court so that the judge can ream her another new one..........

Yes, that's exactly what I mean.  I've heard of it happening too many times among my friends.

Even BM here, when she had custody she usually couldn't wait for someone else to take SD.  But the one time I made SD's Halloween costume (at SD's request) and we wanted to have SD for 15 minutes on Halloween to get a picture of it - NOPE!  BM and her BF took SD out 3 separate times to go trick or treating, just to keep her busy until bedtime.  The kid had so much candy that BM forced her to give 2 pillowcases worth to friends at school.

So, it's real easy for BM to withhold visitation if she gets that bee in her bonnet.  With some custodial parents what's right isn't anywhere near the same thing as reality.

Glad the threat of custody change may have helped.  Hope that helps you with things for a long time to come.

Kitty C.

Quote from: Im-a-dad2 on Jul 31, 2009, 12:07:59 PM
Now, I'm sure it was said only to scare her into behaving, but still, the look of horror on her face was nice enough.

*chuckle*  Too bad you didn't get a picture of that! 
Handle every stressful situation like a dog........if you can't play with it or eat it, pee on it and walk away.......

Davy

Rightfully so the father is extremely happy because he finally gets to have his children or child by his side. I share in that joy since I've BTDT. 

Let us not forget the seriousness of this womans' offense against the child, the father, and the state.  As far as I'm concerned, she received a very light verbal reprimand for hiding a child for 2 years after abscounding with the child out of state substantially against state law, the court order and without the permission of the other parent.   These matters may well touch on criminal statues depending on the state.

Her behavior should not be twisted somehow into "denial of visitation" or treated like just another day in the life of a custodial parent.   I suspect the look of horror on her self-absorped face resulted from the shock of someone HINTING she MAY not be above man's laws or Gods laws. That's usually how self-absored and ill these people are.


Im-a-dad2

Davy - We have another hearing on the contempt motion (and joint legal) in 90 days.

I do plan to fight for her to be found in contempt, since I believe she should be held to the court order just like I am (God forbid I stop paying CS!) I also believe that if her actions go unpunished, then what's to stop her from disregarding and/or ignoring the court order in the future??

Either way, I will post the outcome.

nnote

Congrats, and...
You got lucky. Don't forget it and don't let it happen again
2 hours west may be out of state, but 2 hours east may be still instate. Would you have gotten just as lucky if she moved east? (or whatever direction it was...)
BTW... you didn't mention if you were dealing with an x with a mental disorder. If so, I can understand some of what happened, still, If I were the Judge I would have reprimanded you also for your inaction.
Regardless, it's time for action! Document x 3. Document Document...
The mothers actions were in-excusable, but you let it happen.

Im-a-dad2

#30
Just what do you mean by I "got lucky"? I don't quite understand what you mean...