Vacation time

[BeKind]

Our order reads as follows:

Provided it causes no disruption to the child's schooling, each parent shall
be allowed to have the child for up to fourteen (14) days each year during
their respective vacations, with at least thirty (30) days notice to the
other parent.
Prior to leaving for vacations, the parent taking the child with him/her
will provide the other parent with a travel itinerary to include dates of
travel, destination, location, and telephone number where the child can
be reached.

As it stands, my ex has given me the 30 day notice, and I agreed to those dates. He still has not provided the itinerary. He is now asking to pick our son up this Thursday as the dates he requested begin Friday. I still do not have an itinerary of any sort. He also told our son's daycare that he would not be there even a few days following the requested vacation dates. I asked him about this as those are actually my days, not his, when he returns. I want to be sure that the dates he chose to travel are still the dates that he originally requested from me, but he never gives me an answer. If he does not provide me with the itinerary by Thursday, do I still have to allow him to take our son? My scheduled time with him is actually until Sunday.

[MixedBag]

You don't have to allow Thursday as he didn't give you 30 days notice.

You don't have to allow your child to go if he doesn't give you the information upon pick up on Friday.

You should allow Thursday -- and then count 30 days from there.

My EX#2 would also get mad at me for not providing an itinerary until I picked up our son......and I'm sorry, but I was complying with the order, and he had the information before I left with our son.

IF Dad doesn't provide the information, and you have NO FEAR that he will return to the area, I would allow the child to go, BUT I would also file a "Motion for Contempt" first thing Monday morning -- so that this doesn't happen again.  Once your child sees dad and stuff, it's gonna cause a commotion -- (Dad's fault) -- if you don't allow the child to go.....and all that stuff.

Let the judge fine him.

AND if I remember correctly, Dad is military -- so if you already create documentation in the courts' file that dad makes up his own rules, when he has to move with the military, maybe the courts won't let him take son and stuff....

[Spaceman1982]

I agree with mixed. That would be one of the first things the judge would ask if you kept child was did you think he would run off with child....you say no now your the villian. So file motion and keep your self. Lean so the judge can rip him till he is bored.

It also helps since you bend with him (giving him Thursday when he originally said Friday) and shows he just expects things.

[Spaceman1982]

Also what do you mean by scheduled time? From what I have seen in Nevada language for summer vacation "request" is not really that. If the other person provides proper notice then it trumps other orders. Please elaborate

[BeKind]

By scheduled time, I mean that when they return from their vacation time, it will be during my regular custody time, so our son would be back in my care. My concern isn't just for myself, but his daycare also needs to know if he will be attending the day after they return, and since he keeps changing the dates between every person he talks to and keeps refusing to give me an itinerary, I am getting concerned that he doesn't plan to return on the days that I agreed to. Even in our emails just now, he said different dates than were originally agreed to. I just want us both on the same page, with a scheduled time he picks him up and a scheduled time I pick him up when they return. It really doesn't need to be so complicated. If there wasn't so much back and forth, the itinerary wouldn't be such an issue but at this point I am becoming concerned over the date he plans to return. I was willing to be flexible and allow him to pick up our son the afternoon before their vacation time if they were leaving early that day for their flight. I obviously do not want my son having to wake up at 4am or something to leave when he could stay with his father the night before and sleep in a little later, but with his dad behaving the way he is, it makes it hard for me to continue to be so flexible on these things. Not to mention he constantly takes advantage and does not give me a time he will be picking him up on days that are not our regularly scheduled exchange day. I think I may request to have an amendment made that in the future he is to give at least one day's notice for those time of arrangements. All too often I am sitting around for hours waiting for him to say he is on his way instead of him simply saying he will be here at 6pm, etc.

[BeKind]

I knew something was up. His mother just emailed me the itinerary. First, he does not leave until Saturday afternoon, so there is no reason he needs to pick him up Thursday afternoon. Second, she stated that there may be a 3-day extension added on, and she was looking into changing his tickets. She claims that because his weekend starts on Friday because of Father's Day weekend, that the vacation doesn't start until Sunday and that 14 days would be until July 1st.

I responded back to my ex as his mother and I are to have no direct contact due to a protective order I had put against her (which she continues to violate). I told him that he will return our son to me on the day scheduled as those were not the dates agreed upon and that he was to give me 30 days notice for vacation dates. If he does not return him to me on the 29th as scheduled, that would be considered kidnapping, correct? What can I do to prepare for this event should they completely disregard my objection? Is there a way to find out if his tickets are changed? Who would I call in the instance that he is not returned to me? If I find out his tickets have been changed, do I have the right to not allow him to go, knowing that they do not plan to return him to me during my allotted custody time? Is there a way I can put a hold on his passport or something along those lines? They live so close to the Canadian border, now I'm honestly worried about them continuing to do whatever they please.

[MixedBag]

ok, connecting a holiday weekend for Father's Day and THEN starting the 30 days can be viewed as OK by the Judge.  (It was for me in WV).  Second opinion on that can actually be found in a blog that I recently found via this site in another section where the attorney is from Dallas. 

"No reason to pick him up on Thursday" -- That's NOT your call.    As a former NCP, why I want to pick up my son on a certain date is up to me, not for the CP/Dad to determine if it's justified as a good reason.  If the order allows me to do this, then he doesn't get to ask why.   (However your order defines weekends and defines that he has to notify you for the 30 days, k?.....just get away from questioning his reasons and stuff, stick to the order).

Canadian border vs. he is in the military -- so he would risk becoming a federal fugitive?   

Does the child HAVE a passport?  And who physically has it?

What does the order say about passports?

So what do you do when the child isn't returned according to your math of the child's required return date?

Two things -- file a motion for contempt with the court and contact the police department for assistance.

Tickets....you might be able to call the airline and confirm the return date of the child's ticket and as their mother, they "might" talk to you.

How do you guys pay the daycare bill?  Can you get that split up into "Dad's" account and "Moms" account?

You are ok to ask "What time?" on a specific day -- and if he doesn't answer -- make yourself unavailable by shopping that day and let HIM wait in the driveway until you get back home.  Maybe that will force a bit of cooperation.  Don't think -- IMHO -- a judge expects you to sit at home all way waiting for dad to pick up and do the exchange, HOWEVER, you gotta have the child available, so do what you need to for that day, and stick to nearby grocery stores where you can basically be back to the exchange in 30 minutes.

[MixedBag]

http://chrislawyerblog.com/2012/06/standard-possession-order-for-june/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=standard-possession-order-for-june (http://chrislawyerblog.com/2012/06/standard-possession-order-for-june/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=standard-possession-order-for-june)

You'll have to read a bit, but this is in the Divorce News Section and then the first article there, and then it takes you here.

Hang in there.....k?  (Right now  I think you're both making mistakes.....k?)  And think, you have "US" to help guide you to pick and choose your battles, while he continues along his ways.  And how will that look down the road in court?  Trust me, it works.

[BeKind]

The vacation time was to be 14 days in length that the dates were agreed upon 30 days prior. So now that it is just a few days before, it's ok for him to just randomly change the dates without my consent? That is the issue I am having.

As far as picking him up Thursday is concerned, I am always willing to work with him and his schedule especially because of the military aspect and his work schedule changing a lot. I would have let him pick him up on Thursday afternoon had he been leaving early Friday morning, but if they are not leaving until Saturday, I didn't see a good reason I should shorten what time I have with my son. I have not said anything to him about why he cannot pick him up on Thursday... those thoughts have only been posted here. I just told him to stick to the agreed upon dates.

Canadian border - more worried about his family than him. We have plenty of issues, including a protective order as I had mentioned earlier. I would not put it past them (and him to allow this) to leave the country with our son. They have a constant attitude that they can get away with whatever they want, legal or not, and will do so at their whim. Our son does have a passport, and it is his father who has it. There is nothing in our order about the passports.

Daycare - Since we have him alternating on a weekly basis, we each pay for the week we use it. If I have him extra days during his normal time, he still pays for it because it is usually that I am caring for our son because he is out of town or working nights. So I will be responsible for a whole week of daycare if he is going that one day after he returns. If not, then I can include it in the vacation time and not pay for that week. However, that is also income for the lady that runs the daycare, so I can understand her concern in trying to plan for if that will not be paid to her.

I'm trying to be reasonable about things, but if you knew the family I am dealing with, you would understand the concern. They full-heartedly think the are above the law, and the judge has even called them out on that at one point.

[Spaceman1982]

I have a I do as I please ex. It sooner or later will bite them in the ass. But simply fearing abduction won't work. For mine I told the judge she was running from a warrant which helped support my cAse and aided my flight risk concern as well as other issues. But point is you have to have a reason to support it.

Second of all. If she violates the TPO YOU NEED TO REPORT IT TO THE POLICE! If they do nothing then you file motion for contempt with the TPO judge and attach numerous emails as evidence.

Sometimes you have to not be flexible if the other parent takes advantage of you constantly but choose your battles. If he gets weekend due to fathers day then why would he use it as vacation time.......if it was mothers day weekend would you?? Or would you piggy back like he is??  The judge will side with him sayin he asked for 17 days cause three were holidays.

HOWEVER. if his pickup for fathers day isn't till Friday afternoon. Tough cookie. See what I'm saying??

[Spaceman1982]

And just to add. I used to help my ex. Gave her extra time and all. Then I messed up planning for a camping trip asked to switch and I would make up her time. She literally said via email "you should have planned better". So I obeyed court order to a T. We went to court and she told judge I wouldn't work with her about switching. Told judge I had and showed him email said that made me start following court order. He told her you did it to yourself and I can only make him obey the court order.

[tigger]

He didn't originally ask for extra days.  When he notified her 30 days in advance he stated Fri, 6/15 - (Whatever date).  The problem is that he has been telling others that he'll have the child longer.  But not telling Mom that.  In addition, the grandmother has decided that he should already get the weekend and add three days to it  . . . again, not with the required 30 days notice.  And he's asking to pick up the child early . . . not with the required 30 days notice.  In other words, either he's really disorganized or he's playing games.  This is exactly why I had it in my orders that the weekends were protected times and that vacations were to be taken in two (and later 4) nonconsecutive 7 days increments.  In other words, I couldn't take his weekend for vacation time and he couldn't take mine.  He insisted that his vacation should end with a weekend he/his wife always requested 5 p.m. Sunday to 5 p.m. Sunday.  One year I couldn't take a typical full work week because I had to be at work at least a couple of days EVERY week during that summer.  I requested 5 p.m. Wednesday to 5 p.m. Wed and my ex's wife had a conniption.  She just KNEW it was ILLEGAL.    Never got arrested though. 

He never gave me an itinerary.  I always gave him one.  He wasn't supposed to take the boys across the state line without letting me know in writing but they routinely took them to his wife's sisters in VA.  I never took him back to court for contempt because I knew it was just a ploy to annoy me and I knew he'd be back.  And if he did do anything horrible, his parents would side with me.  That helped a lot in the level of tolerating stupid stuff.

The real problem is that he made a decision, his mom found a loophole and is now trying to exploit it.

[Spaceman1982]

Not disagreeing with the loophole theory Tigger. 100% agreed.

I do reiterate however. Follow the court order. If I misinterpreted something as far as timing bekind, I still say follow the court order. If HE never said I'm adding the three days to YOU....then peace.  (I for some reason thought he had and the mother stated why. I still would tell the police she is leaving you alone with a TPO)

[MixedBag]

The vacation time was to be 14 days in length that the dates were agreed upon 30 days prior. So now that it is just a few days before, it's ok for him to just randomly change the dates without my consent? That is the issue I am having.
You're allowed to have issues with him changing his mind and there's no 30 days notice.


As far as picking him up Thursday is concerned, I am always willing to work with him and his schedule especially because of the military aspect and his work schedule changing a lot. I would have let him pick him up on Thursday afternoon had he been leaving early Friday morning, but if they are not leaving until Saturday, I didn't see a good reason I should shorten what time I have with my son. I have not said anything to him about why he cannot pick him up on Thursday... those thoughts have only been posted here. I just told him to stick to the agreed upon dates.
Ok, so you only posted the thoughts here -- that's a good thing because IMHO we can help you pick and choose your battles and even say "HEY, don't think like that" safely.


Canadian border - more worried about his family than him. We have plenty of issues, including a protective order as I had mentioned earlier. I would not put it past them (and him to allow this) to leave the country with our son. They have a constant attitude that they can get away with whatever they want, legal or not, and will do so at their whim. Our son does have a passport, and it is his father who has it. There is nothing in our order about the passports.
Ok, so there's a passport already been issued and the order is silent on the subject.  Sometimes you can't do much or anything until the order has been violated now that it's already signed and set.  I too took our son to Germany with me -- and EX sorta tried to pitch a fit -- but I also RETURNED him when I was supposed to.  Right now, that's the key.  the back and forth exchange according to the order.  If he steps out of line and doesn't return your child....THAT's when you have to file and ask for the passport to be surrendered t you for safekeeping.


Daycare - Since we have him alternating on a weekly basis, we each pay for the week we use it. If I have him extra days during his normal time, he still pays for it because it is usually that I am caring for our son because he is out of town or working nights. So I will be responsible for a whole week of daycare if he is going that one day after he returns. If not, then I can include it in the vacation time and not pay for that week. However, that is also income for the lady that runs the daycare, so I can understand her concern in trying to plan for if that will not be paid to her.
If he's been paying daycare when you actually have the child, then you should keep that on target and keep the daycare lady out of it.


I'm trying to be reasonable about things, but if you knew the family I am dealing with, you would understand the concern. They full-heartedly think the are above the law, and the judge has even called them out on that at one point.

Don't go there with me.....I've dealt with TWO unreasonable EXs....over the past 18 years, I've walked more than a mile in your shoes and came out with great relationships with all 6 kids (3 mine, and 3 former steps).   It was this place, these boards that taught me when I stepped in the right direction and when I overstepped.  I have orders from a judge and studies from a GAL that made me cry tears of joy in that SOMEONE finally understood what was really happening.  I do understand -- which is why I'm trying to help and just not ignore your requests for help.

Tacking on a weekend, or using a weekend before a longer period of time is someting you are both allowed to do.  It goes both ways.  Remember that when you plan for your 14 days with your child.

[BeKind]

Thank you everyone. I made it clear to him how I felt about the 14 days. If he violates that, I will have it taken up with the court. At least I have proof that I already spoke to him about it and he continued to violate it anyway should he choose to do so. Until then, I will just have to wait and see how it goes and try not to stress out too much.

As for the TPO with his mother... right now we are waiting for our court date. I already took her back to court about it once for violating it. Now we are waiting to see if the court plans to extend it based on any contact she has with me up until that point. It's a waiting game but I keep track of everything, so I just try to ignore her the best I can and continue to not speak to her directly ever.

[MixedBag]

good luck!

[ocean]

Does the TPO include no emails to each other? If it  does, she violated again, go to your police station with the proof and have them file a contempt violation.

[BeKind]

Thank you everyone. I just thought I would give a little update. He did return from his trip as scheduled, however, we had an issue this morning because he refused to return our son to me at the scheduled time. So, the police were involved, however, my son is now with me. I think I may go through our CO to see if I can get a modification put in place to make certain things a little more specific, as per recommendation of the officers involved this morning. Anyone have to do this before?

[ocean]

You would need to file a modification to the visitation plan- court order. You can file yourself, some places it is free to do , or small fee.
Use the police report and reason " on xx day, father did XXX, mother had to get police involvement to get child back, mother requests the order to say xyz (specific details and even dates each year he gets child for summer and that it not include any other time, 14 straight days then back to mother).

[MixedBag]

yes, call it a "Motion for Clarification" -- and then tell the court which part causes arguments between the two of you and ask the court to CLARIFY what it means and then suggest potential language to make it clearer.