Questions going inot Mediation.

[Juanab]

Well I have gotten pretty far as far as my case goes without a lawyer.  The Judge ordered that we go to mediation after sheeclined my request.  I have a coupeof questions for anyone on here.  
 - Does anyone know the Fl Statute about new relationships and contact with the children?

 - Can anyone give a good list of things to remeber when going into Mediation so as not to forget the critical details?

Here is what I have so far to bring up in court.-

 - right of first refusal.
 - Interferance of outside parties.
 - Primary Residence issues.
 - Visitation times and days.


Can anyone help me with other things I need to list so when I goto the Mediation I will be prepared?  Thank you.

[Ref]

a couple of years ago.

Are you looking for visitation or custody?

If visitation:

You should get a copy of the standard parenting agreement for your county. Just do a google search for your county and "clerk of the court". You should be able to find it.  This, barring anything out of the ordinary such as you or your ex haveing a criminal background, will be a perfect starting point. This is the minimum that you will get. Put a list together of changes that you want.

Right of first refusal is perfectly reasonable to ask for. I'm not sure what you mean about interference of outside parties. Normally verbage like that is not put into the agreement unless there is a serious physical threat to the child and you can prove it.

You should definately spell out dates times and places of exchanges. It will save you in the future. That was in the standard that my DH used.

Best wishes,
Ref

[Jade]

>Well I have gotten pretty far as far as my case goes without
>a lawyer.  The Judge ordered that we go to mediation after
>sheeclined my request.  I have a coupeof questions for anyone
>on here.  
> - Does anyone know the Fl Statute about new relationships and
>contact with the children?
>
> - Can anyone give a good list of things to remeber when going
>into Mediation so as not to forget the critical details?
>
>Here is what I have so far to bring up in court.-
>
> - right of first refusal.
> - Interferance of outside parties.
> - Primary Residence issues.
> - Visitation times and days.
>
>
>Can anyone help me with other things I need to list so when I
>goto the Mediation I will be prepared?  Thank you.


I agree with Ref's recommendation to get a copy of the guidelines for your state.  

As for the new relationships and contact with the children, I am not sure what you are wanting to know.  But I do think that it is a good idea to not introduce someone new to the children until you know the relationship is going to be around for a while.  

[mistoffolees]

Aside from the advice you've already gotten, let me suggest that you leave NOTHING to good will.

For example, lots of people have agreements that say they get 'reasonable' visitation. Forget it- that's a worthless phrase and there's a chance that the other party will say that it's reasonable for you to never see the kid - and you'll be back into court.

'Parties will negotiate' is also a meaningless phrase. The other side can say they tried to negotiate and you wouldn't comply.

'Parties will keep the child's interest in mind' is just as useless. Both parties always say that they do this - even when it's obviously not the case.

Make sure you set limits on her moving. You want a restriction that the mother can move if she wishes, but if so physical custody reverts to  you - IOW, the daughter can not be moved out of state (or out of a 50 mile radius, or whatever).

All the things need to be specific. What holidays do you get and what time and place do you pick the child up for your time? Saying you get her for 'every other Christmas' is useful, but barely. Instead, say you will pick her up at 6 pm on the last day of school before Christmas and return her to the mother by 5 pm on New Year's Day - or whatever you agree to.

Now, the important part. What are you planning for custody? Unless there is some criminal matter in your background, you should insist on joint legal custody - even if the other party is going to have primary physical custody. If you let her have sole legal custody, your rights drop to near zero (you get the agreed-upon visitation and nothing else).

If you're able to handle it (distance, finance,s etc), go for joint legal custody and shared physical custody (lots more courts are having the kids alternate weeks for 50:50 parenting now). This would normally be your starting point in the negotiations. However, if she has any criminal or psychological issues, you MIGHT start by asking for sole legal custody and primary physical custody. However, I wouldn't do this unless you think there's a real chance that you'll get it because it merely starts things off on an antagonistic level. If it goes to court, you can always ask for sole legal later.

Second choice is joint legal custody with her having primary physical custody and you having liberal visitation (at least equal to your state guidelines, and hopefully more). This is the least I would settle for.

Only if you have a major criminal or psychological issue should you agree to her having sole legal custody. If she's got a lawyer involved, you can bet that she's going to try this and hope that you'll let her get away with it.

I would consider talking with a lawyer before going into  mediation and to have the final agreement written by an expert.

[williaer]

Word it EXACTLY as you'd like it. We put in ours "Mother will have Child for Two weeks of the month and Father will have child for two weeks of the month. When we started it was 2 weeks, 2 weeks- Mommy dearest decided she couldn't handle two weeks at a time and insisted that we go week to week- it sucks, but we didn't specify how the time was laid out- so we lose.

Also- put in there something about what happens if either of you were to die or be permenantly unable to care for the child. It's not an automatic switch of custody and if grandma and grandpa get a bug up their butt...well, you see where this is going.

[MixedBag]

No double standards.

If you want her to live by it, then you be ready to live by it.

Mediation is not binding.

What happens in mediation may not be brought into the courtroom as evidence.

You can not call the mediator to testify for anything.

Be very very specific.

When anyone balks at specific wording, focus on the fact that specific wording will mean less room for various interpretations down the road.  You've already been given one good example experience from another parent here.

[Ref]

Although it isn't in itself binding, usually in Fl the mediation agreement will be signed by both parties (if you are able to agree) and the mediator and entered into the court to make it official. This agreement itself is not binding, but when the judge gets his mitts on it it becomes a court order and binding.

Ref

[mistoffolees]

True. I think the reason the non-binding nature of mediation was mentioned is the person was concerned that they'd be forced to do something on the basis of mediation.

That can't happen. If you don't agree to mediation, you simply say you don't agree and then you're not bound by it.

Of course, if you say you agree, you'd better mean it because as you point out, it's going to have the force of law as soon as the judge signs the mediated agreement.

[POC]

To my knowledge, there is no such thing as a "standard parenting agreement" in Florida. If there is can you provide a link to any county that has one?

[POC]

> - Does anyone know the Fl Statute about new relationships and
>contact with the children?

Ch. 61.13 deals with custody and visitation. The presumption is for "frrequent and continuing contact". I am confident in saying that no definition exists to quantify what that amount of time acutally is.


> - Can anyone give a good list of things to remeber when going
>into Mediation so as not to forget the critical details?

You need to be a bit more specific as to what you mean by that.

>
>Here is what I have so far to bring up in court.-
>
> - right of first refusal.

You probably won't have a problem with that, but in pracitcality it is nearly meaningless.

> - Interferance of outside parties.

Calrify, please.


> - Primary Residence issues.

Typically, one parent will be designated as PRP, and the other NRP.


> - Visitation times and days.

Ch. 61.30 defines a "substantial amount of time" as 146 or more overnights out of the year. As long as it is true, I suggest that you tell the judge, "there is no good reason why the child should be denied substantial access to either parent." You may want to provide a comparison of results of children in joint custody situations to fatherless households, which is typically how children are denied substantial access to a fit parent.  

>
>Can anyone help me with other things I need to list so when I
>goto the Mediation I will be prepared?  

Yes, study the info at this website - http://flcfc.com/ then ask me what else you would like to know.

POC

[Juanab]

The problem I am having is that.  She is introducing the new person in her life as the new caregiver.  She does not want me to have any rights.  She has stated that the new boyfriend takes care of our child now.  

[POC]

juanab,

Here is the link to Ch 61.13, which deals with custody and visitation - http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0061/SEC13.HTM&Title=->2006->Ch0061->Section%2013#0061.13


Her not wanting you to have any rights has nothing to do with anything, except to try to ruffle your feathers. It only works if you let it. The boyfriend, even if he ends up marrying your ex has no legal standing with the child. That is reserved for the mother and father.

Stay focused.

[Juanab]

Thank you for the advice.  I have read the satatutes and am preparing it and organizing it now.  I Took a camera with me on our meetings to ensure an even playing field.  On camera they go on to say that he takes care of her now. and that it is not in the best interest of my daughter to be with me because they are in another school district.  I have alot of fottage with them. Can I take that to court with me?  I have not let her or her boyfriend get to me.  I have maintained absolute calmness.  Is there anyway to post video footage so that you can see for yourself.  and maybe help me with the appropriate actions???

[POC]

First, I'm not a lawyer, and am not implying to give any type of legal advice. I HIGHLY suggest that you consult a Board Certified Family Law Attorney. You can run my suggestions below by your attorney.

My personal take on the situation is that the two of you are jockeying for position to show how you are the better parent. If you want to get caught up that, go ahead. But, I have to tell you, it is not very often that fathers are successful in doing so, unless you can prove that she is a pond-scum sucking leach, and even then she'll probably have to make some snide comment about how the judge is dressed.

Mediation is pretty meaningless, as nothing is binding until both of you agree to it. If you could do that, then you would probably still be together. That being said, some people still swear by it. I found that leaving right away and taking my ex to lunch was much more effective, and cheaper too. We didn't talk about anything to do with court, other than to agree that we'd see each other in court. But, at least she had the good sense to not waste any more money on the mediator and her attorney. I asked my attorney if he'd like to join us for lunch, but he just laughed and said that we were making a Wise decision. Needless to say, the mediator was a bit miffed by the whole situation. There, parents could agree to go to lunch, but he couldn't get us to agree on anything about our kid that the court had to decide. Long/short, I was required to show up, and I did - got the t-shirt!

My suggestion is that you eventually tell the judge that you believe your child should have substantial access to both parents. Again, Ch 61.30 defines that amount of time as 146 or more overnights out of the year. In Ch 61.13, one of circumstances that judges are to consider is

"j)  The willingness and ability of each parent to facilitate and encourage a close and continuing parent-child relationship between the child and the other parent."

It is my belief that stating your belief that both parents should be substantial parts of the child's life puts you in good standing when considering that factor.

As for footage of mediation proceedings, it is my understanding that nothing that is said in mediation can be used by other party in court. Supposedly, the reason behind that is to facilitate an openness about the proceeding.

Finally, if the judge rules to deny you and your child substantial access to each other in the absence of any clear evidence that it would be harmful to your child, then you may have good grounds for a Constitutional Appeal. Talk over with your attorney, or possibly Soc. I can tell you that the state statutes affords the judge that type of discretion, so I doubt you would win that issue on a state appeal, unless you were able to show that it also violates Florida's Constitution, which I believe it also does. But, you better be prepared to submit a comparison of results for children in joint custody to their counterparts in sole custody situations. You also better hope that the judge does not find you to be an unfit parent, or else that whole argument is moot.

The argument is interesting, but I don't know if you've got the time, money, or inclination to see it through. Hopefully you'll get a judge who sees the wisdom of having two involved parents.

[Juanab]

I do thank you for the suggestions.. That is all I am asking for.  The videos I have are not of Mediation  they are of contact with the other party outside of any court room.I felt I had to safeguard myself from her to even out the playing field.  I do not wish to deny the mother access to her child.. I just wish to be a fulltime part of my childs life.

[POC]

Can you tell me what part of FL you and your child live in?

[Juanab]

Tampa, FL

[POC]

I'm a little south of you in Naples.

[MixedBag]

The reason I said "Mediation is not binding" is that only COURT ORDERS are binding.

See -- mom and dad can mediate, agree, and even sign a piece of paper together at the same time.

Some states will regard that piece of signed paper as binding already and turn it into a court order.

Other states will allow either party to change their mind as long as that signed piece of paper hasn't become and order.

There is a chance that you walk out of mediation THINKING you have an agreement, and then one person changes their mind.

It can happen.

Trained mediator here.  We were taught to NOT have the parties sign the agreements.  However, a guest lecturer who is an attorney said "Yes, go ahead and have them sign the agreement and add a clause that says they understand it's binding."  Because in AL, a piece of paper with two signatures is binding.

And since we're not attorneys, just mediators, that's why we were taught to not have the parties sign the agreement and to let them take it back to an attorney and turn it into legal words and a legal document.  Mediators have to be very careful NOT to cross over and practice law.

Had one attorney share a story about her client.  The couple signed an agreement and then her client filed for a divorce (using another attorney).  Well, that attorney didn't follow the proper procedure (something about not properly serving the other party), and so legally they are not divorced.  But there is no open argument about the property settlement and stuff because there is a signed agreement which is binding here in AL.  They just had to go back and file the divorce paperwork properly to make the divorce legal.

Splitting hairs if you ask me.....

The bottom line is that when two people walk out of mediation, you may THINK you have an agreement, but that AGREEMENT isn't enforceable until it becomes a COURT ORDER.  

So if you got the other party to agree to something you really really want and they probably didn't really want, you might want to lay low until it becomes a court order before they realize what happened.

[MixedBag]

The initial divorce or parenting plan and stuff?

Your tapes....that you mentioned in the other thread.

Here's what I suggest

For mediation, they will only become useful IF the Mom denies saying that stuff during your discussion with the mediator,

You can show the video clip -- prove Mom wrong -- and then move forward.  The only way it might help is that Mom will start focusing on solutions instead of belittling your role in raising YOUR child.

Remember, the mediator is trained to get you two to come to a decision.  Mediators DO NOT MAKE decisions.

Mediators are not lawyers in that room, or social workers, or counselors, or nothing.

They are there to assist in moving conversation forward.

Conversation will hopefully result in agreement on issues regarding the child.

As a mediator, I come into the room totally neutral with no idea what the solution is gonna be.  Each couple is different and different answers are gonna work for them.

For court....getting them introduced as evidence is tricky.  I'm not an attorney, so I can't tell you how to do this.

I can say from personal experience, that when a parent is not focused on the child, usually their true colors will shine through in court and the judge will see that.  That's what happened to my EX#2 -- he shot himself in the foot.

[mistoffolees]

There are obviously a lot of complexities.

I would prefer to have the two people sign the agreement when they walk out of mediation. Even though it's not binding until the court approves it, it is clear evidence of their state of mind at the time. Also, it may make them take it a bit more seriously.

It really bugs me when someone agrees to something, signs it, and then later says "I never really meant it and never meant to honor it" (as my stbx did). The OP walked out thinking they had an understanding and resolution - only to have the rug pulled out from them later. Forcing someone to sign the agreement won't prevent that problem from occurring, but perhaps it will make it a bit less likely.

In fact, I'd go further. IMO, when you sign an agreement with appropriate legal representation, you should not be able to change it without showing good cause. In the case of mediation, you always have the option of saying there's no agreement and walking out. Signing the agreement should be enforceable - unless there's a signfiicant reason why not. The current system doesn't help anyone - except wishy washy or dishonest people.

[Juanab]

It is my understanding that if an agreement is made in this state that the judge will review it and make it official.  This is a court ordered Mediation.  She Declined to a voluntary one.  So I believe that the judge will be involved at some point.

[Ref]

in Florida. It was a court ordered mediation with the understanding that the judge will approve any signed agreement.

Ref

[POC]

Somehow, lost in all of this is that there are no negative ramifications to a party who does not want to agree with their STBX or ex in mediation. Nothing is binding unless you agree to it, and then has been mentioned, it later becomes part of the CO.

Best advice is to bring lots of lunch money.

[MixedBag]

and realize that you two may agree to somethings and not other things.

you may not agree to anything.

Just because mediation is ordered, doesn't mean there will be an agreement.

And something tells me ... there won't be an agreement.