Overnight visits with 2 year old?

[FirstTimeMomCA]

My baby is going to be 2 years old next month. My ex and I were never married, and we went to court to establish visitation when the baby was 6 months old (he did not see the child before this time). Ex lives out of state and we agreed to visits of a few hours daily (supervised by me until baby was 1 year old) while he is here. He has been exercising his visitation every 6 weeks or so, sometimes for the 3 hours daily, sometimes for only 45 minutes. (Most of the time he is with me, in my home, as he has not taken the baby anywhere or cared for the baby by himself). However, at the end of our order, it also reads that "overnights can begin at age 2". (It has no other details about how, when, where, etc.) Before any overnights take place, I would like to start a gradual visitation schedule that slowly increases his time from a few hours a day to a full day visit with no overnight visits until later.

Can I go back to court and modify a stipulated order requesting this or will we have to go through mediation? How do I do this?

(And please, I really want our child to comfortable with my ex. This is not about me not recognizing my ex as our child's father or me trying to keep him from our child.)

Thanks.

[junglechicken]

Has he been making comments like "Pretty soon (child) can stay with me overnight" or to that effect?

Have you proposed your idea to him?

[FirstTimeMomCA]

>Has he been making comments like "Pretty soon (child) can
>stay with me overnight" or to that effect?
>
>Have you proposed your idea to him?


Yes, he has been, and him staying with friends or shady motels to save money is not my idea of a safe place for our 2 year old.

I haven't proposed the idea of waiting yet because anything I propose he shoots down simply because I propose it. It doesn't matter if it's the right thing to do for our child; it has been that way since the beginning. It's all about "winning" and him being "right" and me being "wrong." It's frustrating, but I am trying my best for our child's sake.

[BecauseIJustDid]

You need to go to court and file a declaration stating what you know. You need to file a request to modify the orders. Maybe you can enforce visits be at a nuetral location. A grandparents home avail?

[Gestalt]

I think the gradual schedule is very reasonable, and in dad's defense, just because you have been providing all of the child's day to day care does not mean he is incapable of doing the same. Every parent is a first time parent at some point....I came home one day and dd was wearing a diaper backwards.....dad didn't quite know how to put it on LOL....they figure it out, and maybe as part of the gradual schedule you can help him (nicely)with anything he is a little unsure of......

[BecauseIJustDid]

According to the co-parenting class I voluntarily sat in on the other day, overnights are viewed as the sooner the better now in our CA court systems. They would enforce a step-up plan I think. It's best to start off slow.

Also, the judge might snap at you if you continue to refer to the DLO as "baby" he's 2 now. Yes, he's YOUR little baby, but court won't care either way. I have seen plenty of parent's make the foolish mistake of trying to make their child younger by quoting their age in months or even weeks after the age of 2. But, 2 is 2. The court see's this as the perfect time for overnights to begin.

Most NCP's try to see their children for a considerable amount of time BEFORE they resort to going to court. I hope that's not the case, but if it is, I could understand the frustration on both parts.

You can request for a modification of the visitation schedule by filing for an Order to Show cause. The local family law court should have a family law assistance center you can access, most of us aren't rich so fee waivers cover the cost of this wonderfully priceless help.

The judge MIGHT not approve of a step-up plan without you being able to prove the child would be harmed by being with the father. Most courts honestly do not care if the NCP has ALREADY been in contact with the child in visitation.

[gemini3]

Yes, he has been, and him staying with friends or shady motels to save money is not my idea of a safe place for our 2 year old.

Just a thought - traveling out of state on a consistent basis can be pretty costly.  Why would your ex bother spending a bunch of money on a super-nice hotel that you would deem "appropriate" if he isn't able to see his child anywhere but at your house under your supervision? 

I can see why your ex might be frustrated - how would you feel if the tables were turned?  The only way he can spend time with his own child is to be supervised by his ex.  I can see why he might interpret it as you trying to keep him from the child.  Haven't you ever left him alone with the child in a year and a half?  It seems that would be something you would want to do so that he can relax and enjoy his time with his child without you hovering over him.

Do you work?  If so, you leave your child alone with daycare workers, but you won't leave him alone with his father?

I'm not trying to attack you - it just seems a little funny that you would have never left him alone with the child all this time.

[[email protected]]

I completely understand how you feel.  My ex had supervised visitation with me in the home and anytime he was with our daughter, he would show no caring for the child.  Would not change diapers, feed her, etc.  Said those things spoil a child.  I was and still am a stay at home mom, but there is a difference in situation there.  If you leave your child at day care, you are paying someone with clean backgrounds and who has been trained and told by you how to care for children.  The daycare workers are supposed to listen to your instructions and abide by them.  In this situation, there is no guarantee on any of these situations.  You people need to sit up and remember how you felt about your children when they were young and could not communicate fully to you.  People here are looking for a shoulder not someone telling them off. 
Sorry, but with my daughters father, the courts did not care about him not changing her, or any of that.  He was the father and got visitation immediately.

[ocean]

A father should have the same access to his child as the mother "immediately" . Why should the father have to prove anything when you as the mother just get child automatically without any court questions? A child is from BOTH parents and the courts are starting to come around to allow fathers the right to be in their child's life. The fact that the parents are not living together should not matter. Married couples have issues with how the other cares for their infants.

You may not like how he parents but I'm sure he has issues with you too. As long as the child is getting changed and fed, parenting styles do not matter in the courts and shouldn't.

[[email protected]]

The difference is if you were together there would be agreements made.  In situations where parents are not together too many times the NCP does not believe anything the CP says and has to prove them wrong.  Why is that???  Fathers do need time with their children, but when the father won't spend the time with the child to get the child to know them and automatically want to seperate them from all they have ever known is wrong.  We need to stop looking at the best interest of the NCP and look at the best interest of the child.  The children have become lost in all of this mess and in 20 years we will look back and say "we should have done things differently".  We need to look at the children and their age and what psychiatrists are saying today.  We need to give these children time to adjust to a situation in which they did not choose to be in.  We as parents need to try to do everything for our children and not for ourselves. 
Too many people on this website are too caught up in their hatred and not interested in the children.  That is where we need to go back to, the children.

[Kitty C.]

Adult children of divorce have been interviewed by various entities and if there is one constant through it all, they said that they wanted more or equal time with BOTH parents.  As long as the child isn't legally being abused or neglected, the CP has absolutely NO say-so as to how the NCP parents and vice versa. 

That's ALL we're here for.......the children.  If I had never come here, SS would not have had the opportunity to develop the excellent relationship he has now with his dad.  Yes, that meant battling with the BM on occasion, but it was all in SS's best interest and even at 14, he's thanked us for it frequently.  BM also thought that DH was not capable of parenting a child, even after DH had a SS.  She lost that battle and SS won.  If there have to be winners and losers in this war, the ONLY winners should be the children, and that's who we're fighting for here.

No one can foresee the future, either.  Many oldtimers here know my story, but I also had serious problems with DS's dad, but it didn't change the fact that DS loved him dearly.  So I held my breath and put him on a plane to send him 1800 miles away every summer and EO Xmas.  Because regardless of how I felt or thought about his dad, I had to facilitate a relationship between the two.  Thank God I did, because the summer DS was 13 (and shortly after DS got to CA for the summer), his dad was diagnosed with cancer and died 3 weeks later.  For the rest of my life, I will be eternally grateful that I was able to put aside my misgivings about DS's dad and liberally fostered their relationship.  DS had his dad for such a short time and life has been very difficult for him ever since...and I know it's because of the loss of his dad.

[ocean]

How would you feel if dad got child from hospital and you had to answer to dad and visit only at dad's house to prove that you are a fit parent? A father does not have to "listen" to you like a daycare provider. Most are able to care for their infants if given the chance. If you allowed you ex to take child a few hours from the start they would have bonded (if he was willing). You need to pick your battles with him or you will always be in the defensive. Find a way to communicate (e-mail and notebook works best) and tell him the major issues-dr appointments, new medicine). Let the rest go...it is hard but you will have a very long road ahead of you if you dont.

[[email protected]]

Everyone who comes to this site has issues and baggage, that's why we came.  But it is wrong to bash the person with a question or worry based on your own history.  It's not only the mother that gives problems, it is the father, too.
Here's my deal.  The BF broke up with me when I told him I was pregnant.  We had been trying for a baby for over a year and had suffered one miscarriage.  Throughout the pregnancy he would call me and rant that this was not his baby....he initiated the calls, not me.
When the baby was born BF came to the hospital and demanded immediate visitation.  One month later he filed for custody, six months later he requested a paternity test.
For the first year BF would come by every other week for 45 minutes.  I tried hard to convince him he needed to come by more often and for longer periods of time, but he said he didn't have the time.  The family all went to either another part of the house or we went outside while BF was visiting, we stayed within earshot but gave them space so he wouldn't feel like we were 'spying'.
It's over 2 years now and this is still not settled.  BF has changed lawyers several times and with each lawyer he brings in new demands.
BF began taking the baby for 4 hours, then 8 hours, one over night, and now 2 overnights.  During that time BF has; sent the baby home with diaper rash so severe repeatedly so I finally called in DHS, refuses to give prescription medicines, wants pick up times arranged so he has to provide as few meals as possible (says he doesn't want to cook supper), has given the baby whole milk in spite of the fact that he was given a doctor's note stating the baby was lactose intolerant ( I got to deal with the diaper rash), gives the baby bananas even though I've asked him repeatedly not to because they constipate baby ( I get to deal with that, too), refuses to make sure baby gets a nap during the day (she is so exhausted by Sunday evening that we have problems through Monday due to lack of sleep), has a sleep over girl friend even though the paper work he agreed to says he's not supposed to, refuses to answer my calls the 2 times I have tried to call to check on baby because she was ill when he picked her up, has taught baby some choice 4 letter words (we don't swear at our house), refuses to give her juice ( I now send soy milk and juice each visitation) gives her bubble baths ( I got to deal with the UTI), demanded that I let him carry the baby on his taxes this year even though it's not his year because he has 'bills' ( my lawyer told me not to let him because he still doesn't pay child support), doesn't brush the baby's teeth ( I send a bag with all toilitries and clothes each visitation), started giving her soda so she began crying for it at our home ( we have broken down to sprite with water only when we eat out since this has become an issue).
The lastest is today.  We are in the midst of a terrible ice storm.  Our area almost never gets this sort of weather, about every 3-4 years.  I called BF, asked if he wanted to pick baby up at 3 p.m. to avoid driving at dusk on the ice.  BF informed me he wasn't worried about driving on ice.  I expressed concern that it was for the safety for baby, he restated that he wasn't worried.  BF isn't working due to back surgery recently.
And I'm supposed to bend over backwards?  I agree everyone has different parenting styles, but when does different parenting styles become neglect? 
And if BF is that concerned then why doesn't he understand that forming bonds is important to an infant and that ripping a baby from the only voice it has heard for nine months in the womb is o.k.?  If BF is so interested in being a good daddy then maybe he should work a little harder at getting along with BM.  Compromise works both ways.

[ocean]

You are dealing with a father that does not want to be involved or scared to be that involved. Can you ask that he attend a parenting class since you are in the middle of court? You sound like you have solid proof to warrant that. The father has some major flags in your case. The poster has a father that was trying to get to his child from a distance and was making the trip/effort to try and see child. If the father is showing up, he should be allowed to take the child out of the BM house himself. He is the father. Both of you are in this for a very long time. You need to keep documenting and sticking to the agreement on paper.

If he does not get taxes this year, the answer is no. End of story. Dont make it into an issue for yourself. Ignore...ignore. If it is dangerous weather and you can prove this with weather reports (keep documentation) then leave message offering child early or different day but that the child will not be going in the middle of an ice storm. Then once again...ignore. Your child is only 2......you will have an ulcer when this is finished. A lot of us have gone through this for years and years. This is only the beginning...sorry to say so get everything you think you may need on paper now while you are in court. Do you have a law guardian assigned to your case? You may want to if you dont. They will look at the docmentation you both have and is a voice for the child. It is a looonnngggg road.....

[gemini3]

Here's the thing - I read lots of posts where the real issue is control, yet the poster goes on about the child's best interests.  I find this very irritating.   

For example - pecancreek is concerned about her baby being in a car during an ice storm.  Valid concern.  She says that, for the best interest of the child, ex should come pick the child up earlier than previously agreed.  Ex does not want to do this - who know why.  So now pecancreek is upset with ex because he is not behaving in the way she wants him to.  If the ONLY concern was over the child, why isn't she offering to drop the child off instead of insisting that ex come at a time she decided on without discussing it with the ex? 

Because the real thing that is upsetting her is that her ex isn't doing what she wants him to do, the way she wants him to do it.  If she was just concerned about protecting the child, she would figure out a way to make sure her child gets to spend time with her father without being on the roads after dusk.

[Kitty C.]

Exactly, Gemini.  It's not about control, it's about compromise and communication. It's going out of your way for the benefit of the child.  Just be careful of the fine line between going out of your way and being taken advantage of.

It can also require a huge leap of faith.  DS's dad took off with him without my knowledge (LONG story) when DS was 4 y.o.  It took me 6 weeks, 3 trips from IA to CA, 2 court appearances and 1 emergency mediation before I could bring him back.  So anyone would say I had a legitimate reason to be very wary of DS going anywhere with him.  DS's dad was also a Canadian citizen....he could have crossed the border with him pretty easy at that time.

So about 4-5 years later (after we got custody worked out and DS had a few trips under his belt), his dad asked to take DS to Canada to see where he grew up.  Of course my first inclination was to say no, and I would have been completely justifed.  But family is everything to me and DS worshiped his dad.  I also knew that this may be the one and only chance his dad would get to do this.  I held my breath, prayed a LOT, and said yes. That's another instance where I will be eternally grateful that they were able to do that.  And my initial premonition was right.....his dad passed away a few years later.

[[email protected]]

First of all, BF is not working right now and had nothing else going on except that he says he does not care if D was on icy roads.  Attorney's had to interfere because he always uses the excuse of not caring about D at all.  The BF is the one with control issues.  Anytime he wants something I am supposed to be the simpering little lady that always has to yield to him.  But if I come up with something, then he bows up and refuses.  You people say that I am the control freak, well hear this.  When he wants to use D on his taxes in my year, I am told to allow it because I am not filing a return, when BF wants to pick up D and any other time or see D extra, I am told to allow it.  But anything that I am wanting or asking, I am told that I am being a jealous vindictive ex.  There are too many vindictive males who only want what they want because after all they gave the sperm.  We women have our lives put on hold for nine months, go through labor, nurture a newborn loose our bodies, and have a new take on life because we become mothers.  But the men are supposed to get it all because that is "what they want".  Well, I am sick of the men who have this attitude.  I have seen first hand how a father can handle the situation with dignity.  My brother was in the same situation, not married, and the mother and father both handled this out of court and have a great relationship because he wanted what was best for his daughter and not "what he wanted". 
In your eyes, I will never have a stand on anything because I am a woman after all.  Women don't know anything and we are all vindictive.  Well you are the idiots who made us this way.  If you were truely interested in what is in a child's best interest you would all get off of your high horses and come back to the real world. 
And for your information, BF's mother came to get D because he would not face me after an attorney chewed him out for the way he talks to me.  And yes, it was recorded.   All I wanted was for someone here to give me some advice and not make me feel as if I am the vindictive ex who cannot get over the man because according to you, I must still be in love with him.  No thank you. I don't need this kind of idiocracy.

Thank you and goodbye!!!

[gemini3]

I can see you're upset.  Let me clear up a couple of things...  first of all - I am a woman.

And - I did give you advice.  My advice was:  top trying to make your ex be something he is not.  Part of your responsibility as a co-parent is to help foster the relationship between your child and her father.  That means that, if you're the one that's concerned about the roads, you're the one that has to come up with the compromise.  That may not have been the advice you wanted - but it was good advice nonetheless.

Calling your attorney to chew out your ex just furthers the rift between the two of you.  Attorney's are great at that.  Your ex didn't violate anything - so why are you having your attorney threaten him?

The part about losing your body and all that - that's genetics.  No man has a choice to take on that burden.  It's something you chose to take on when you got yourself pregnant - so holding it against all men in society is just ridiculous.

I also didn't say anything about you still being in love with him.  Freudian slip maybe?

[Lovestoread]

Here's the thing - I read lots of posts where the real issue is control, yet the poster goes on about the child's best interests.  I find this very irritating.   

For example - pecancreek is concerned about her baby being in a car during an ice storm.  Valid concern.  She says that, for the best interest of the child, ex should come pick the child up earlier than previously agreed.  Ex does not want to do this - who know why.  So now pecancreek is upset with ex because he is not behaving in the way she wants him to.  If the ONLY concern was over the child, why isn't she offering to drop the child off instead of insisting that ex come at a time she decided on without discussing it with the ex? 

Because the real thing that is upsetting her is that her ex isn't doing what she wants him to do, the way she wants him to do it.  If she was just concerned about protecting the child, she would figure out a way to make sure her child gets to spend time with her father without being on the roads after dusk.

I agree with Gemini on this totally.

My son recently went through something similar to this with his ex. She wouldn't allow him to go and pick up thier son because she was peeved about another issue that was going on between them. Something that got added to a court order that is no long allowing her parents to smoke around their son.

So he's no longer allowed to do pick ups and drop offs in her driveway (according to her parents) Probably because they don't want him to see them smoking indoors. Or don't want him to see the lack of them smoking outdoors.
Either way, she wouldn't allow him to get their child early during bad weather because of her anger on this issue and made him wait till the normal court ordered time of pick up in a store parking lot. Making for a much more dangerous ride for the child in Mom and Dad's vehicles.

Why would someone do this? Know what I mean? He begged her the entire day to please let him get the child early and that he'd even give him back early on Sunday and she just wouldn't budge. No way. Sad isn't it? And she's so stubborn on giving him any extra time, but she expects him the NCP to always bend for her. ALWAYS!!! And he usually does.

[Marsha]

I got a little confused as the posters' user name changed midstream?  So lost a bit there.

What I noticed in your original posts was that you are concerned about dad having overnights with the two year old, right?  And I am not sure why.  I didn't hear anything about how the child has adjusted when with dad, etc.  THAT is the point. 

Our daughter DID get put on a accelerated (I guess now called stepped up plan) visitation plan.  When it happened she was between one and two years of age and going through seperation anxiety.  The next time dad took me to court, the mediator who had made the original acceleration, said he believed that daughter had been traumatised.  So he stepped back the plan a bit...for about two months, and then it way stepped up again.  To be honest, now daughter hates her father.  No one can figure out why.  I am not sure why.  But he did take me to court over 20 times in a six year period of time, and would tell child he was going to court.  My situation is a bit unique...the father has done some very weird things with our child over a period of years, and I think she generally feels uncomfortable with him.  Her trust is broken.

Back to you...I know each county is different.  I do know I have heard from other moms' in my county that the stepped up plan is worse than ever here.  It does not account for where the child is at developmentally, does not allow for acceptable adjustment.  I believe, unless the parents really get a long  well (if they did why would they be in court?), that it is a very harsh system for the very young children.

Having said that, weigh out your available options before taking things to court for modification.  Frankly, these days, your lucky you got an agreement that dad have no overnights until the age of two.

I don't know the reasons, your history here, so can't advice much about possible prospects in court.  Who moved away?  If you are the one who moved away, that could be perceived as thwarting dads' relationship with his child.  If dad moved away, thats a different story.  Then you MAY (not really having the information) make a case that dad consistently did not utilize the visitation awarded him.  As a result the child is not bonded enough (you feel) to have overnights right away.  You are requesting that dad be consistent in his visits for a specific period of time, that its in the childs best interests to have the stability and routine to make the transition to overnights.

Having said all that, IF that were even to work, and you were granted a reprieve until dad is more bonded with the child...you are now in the court system.  The mediator will ask you and dad if either of you wishes the case to be continued.  Or they may recommend that anyway.  If dad says yes, you are wrapped up in court every 5 to 6 months each time with an increase in toddlers visitation timel.

Another option I would consider, as well as those of others...is to offer dad to come to your home to spend the night, pack up and go to a friends or moms' or whomevers', to spend the night.   I think thats the most compassionate thing you could do for the child, and it will show dad you are invested in fostering their relationship.  Child stays in his familiar environment, etc.  Dad of course, doesn't HAVE to do this...but it will save him money, and hopefully relieve many anxieties.

I would do everything you can to stay out of court. 

[Marsha]

PS.  If dad does take child to a hotel, that would be an adventure for a two year old.  Perhaps you could call before bedtime to "tuck him in".  Give dad a chance to pick out a decent hotel.  Just because its cheap doesn't have to mean its slimey.  And, if your really concerned about it, chip in $20-30 bucks so dad can get a nicer hotel, maybe even with a indoor pool.  That would be FUN and child would love it.

[BAZ382]

I can see your point of view. 

Fathers should take an interest in being involved in caring for their children but its hard to truly care for a child unless you have independent time with the child.

You can't do that in short one hour to four hour visits especially if they are supervised with the other parent. 

I would be more concerned with his ability and willingness to take on the responsibility rather than your childs age or his involvment in the past.

Remember you are not giving him the chance you are giving your child the chance to know who their father is not just know who he is.

If there is no reason for him not to have your child i.e he's a criminal, drug addict, etc. and he has taken some parenting classes, educated himself about children and how to take care of them (If he hasn't, teach him what you have learned and know) and is willing to spend what time he can.  Let them be together until he proves he can't handle it.  Don't make him wait to prove he can.

Time is precious.  Every minute lost fighting is one less minute a child has a chance to make a connection with their mother or father.  You'll never get the chance to get that moment back.

Does anyone really want their children to grow up and realize the reason they didn't get to spend more time with mom or dad is because one parent didn't think the other was worthy and wasn't willing to help make it happen?

[Beatupdad]

A father should have the same access to his child as the mother "immediately" . Why should the father have to prove anything when you as the mother just get child automatically without any court questions? A child is from BOTH parents and the courts are starting to come around to allow fathers the right to be in their child's life. The fact that the parents are not living together should not matter. Married couples have issues with how the other cares for their infants.

You may not like how he parents but I'm sure he has issues with you too. As long as the child is getting changed and fed, parenting styles do not matter in the courts and shouldn't.

Very well put..I agree unless your spouse did something to cause you any concerns about the safety of your child then there is no reason that he shouldnt be able to watch the child unsupervised and take the child any where he wants..
If your concerned about his financial situation taking him to court aint gonna do nothin but make it worse I dont think there are many divorce lawyers that work pro bono,(especially for a father) and I imagine that if you do go to the court your attorney is going to try and make him pay the court costs YOUR attorney fees and his and all the other miscelaneous charges that are incured during this..
Not to sound demeaning but I think maybe you need to lighten up a little,let the guy be a dad it sounds like hes making  a pretty good effort trying to stay in touch with his kid..
You can bet hes gonna make mistakes like backwards diapers as previously stated to maybe letting the child stay up later than you would,I have had child protective services called on me because the kids needed a bath when the dragon lady came to pick them up..(we had been digging in a river bed ALL day long looking for sharks teeth and fossils and just stuff, )
The DSS worker said look maam they are kids and hes a man lol they gonna get dirty when they are doing things like they were doing lol
Needless to say that steamed the ex and her mom..LOL

Ron