Update on GAL

[Forthelittleones]

Hey All,

Some of you may remember that DH went to court last week and BM was ordered to put up 50K for psycological testing fees.  

Well, guess what - BM called and says she is sorry that she has causes so much trouble and can't she just drop the case?  pretty please? with sugar on top?

Well, our attorney says no dice and the GAL says go ahead and try.  The GAL stated she will file a motion against dismissal since the allegations are serious and repeated and SHE wants to find out who is abusing the child.  If it is Dad, visitation goes bye bye.  If it is Mom due to her repeated allegations, then custody goes to Dad!

I feel so sorry for poor BM(opps, nope h*ll hasn't frozen over yet), but she can look on the bright side.  The Dr performing the tests stated that he will do all of us for 4K.  At least she gets to pay it 1/2 now and then the rest in payments OH and she still has to pay our traveling fees.

Thoughts?

BTW- what is a MMCI?  Anyone had to take it??  HELP

[Indigo Mom]

Ok, now wait just a cotton pickin minute.....!!!  The ex was ordered to come up with a 50k deposit for an evaluation....and you found a doctor that will do it for 4k?  Call me paranoid...but I'd be worried he wouldn't do a "thorough" job.  I've never had to go through an evaluation...(heck, if I did...i'd be in the loony bin) so I don't know "what" the doctor does or how much they typically cost. But when I see 50k being dropped to 4k, I wanna run away!

I don't like the GAL writing a motion against dismissal.  That's eerie.  She wants to know "who" is abusing the child?  Who says "anyone" is.  There's an abuse of the system...and that's the ex filing and refiling the same fricken charges!  Just because an accusation is made, doesn't mean a child is being abused.  But, anyway...wouldn't it be too kewl if dad became the CP???

I don't know about you, but man...there's nuthin' like listening to a pbfh grovelling.  How sweet it is!!!!  If you got it on tape, listen to it every night before you go to bed...I bet you'd have a great sleep!  lolol

-----BTW- what is a MMCI? -----

Isn't that Roman numerals?  Heck, I dunno....

[Forthelittleones]

It is the Dr who the Judge thought was 50K.  It might be more but that is what he told the GAL. His Charge is $250 an hour.

As for the GAL - she beleives it is abuse if the mother is using the legal system to keep the child away from Dad.  So, she believes in your view point! :)

Yeah, I think that Dad will get custody if mom is proven to be using the child and the courts to keep Dad away from parenting time.  This GAL seems to want to get to the bottom of it all.

Hopefully, things will go better and a Child will win!

[MixedBag]

you have a PM

[JT]

Hello, I beleive the typical price range for a Custody eval is between 2500-10000 dollars. Also, the test you may take is the MMPI, which is about 570 questions. The key is to be truthful with the evaluator. There is more info on the SPARC site in regards to the MMPI. Keep us updated with your testing, etc. As I have also had an evaluation ordered. Thanks, JT

[Forthelittleones]

We have to take that one to but we will also take the MMCI - The only thing I could find on it was that it stands for.

[Indigo Mom]

I did an internet search on MMCI...found this.  

-----MMCI-III Million Clinical Multi-axal Inventory
For use in identifying underlying personality characteristics.-----

And that's ALL I found.  However...I looked in this hugamongus book of mine, and it talks about something similar...MCMI-II...this is the Millon Clinical Multiaxial Inventory-II.  Notice, there's an "I" missing on this one.  One is "millIon", one is "millon".  So, I've added this from my book and a few websites about the "I" less one.  Could you find out from the doctor if you are taking the 'MCMI-II' one???  The one without the "I"?  I'm putting in this information anyway cause my crazy ass typed it all out in wordpad...and before you ask?  NO...I don't understand a DAMNED thing!  lol

I have this book...it's called The Effects of Child Abuse and Neglect.  It's filled with "issues and research", edited by Raymond H. Starr, Jr. and Davil A. Wolfe.  (copyright 1991)

It has a teeny bit about this Millon Clinical Multiaxial Inventory.  The other one, is the MMPI-2...so I'm just gonna type out what they say.

*****Properly developed nomothetic measures have been subjected to psychometric evaluations and tend to meet scaling assumptions that allow for traditional statistical analysis.  Well known Questionnarie measures like the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory-2 (MMPI-2, Hathaway & McKinley, 1989) and the Millon Clinical Multiaxial Inventory-II (MCMI-II, Millon, 1987) have been developed to obtain nomothetic data.  In contrast, the idiographic view assumes that each individual has unique personality characteristics that the universal personality factors do not exist or if they do exist they fail to adequately describe the individual personality (Nunnally, 1970).  Thus, idiographic measures focus on unique characteristics of the individual.  These measures often are not subjected to traditional psychometric evaluations and frequently do not yield data that are appropriate for group analyses.  Projective tests, such as the Rorschach (Rorschach, 1943) and the Thematic Apperception Test (Morgan & Murray, 1935: Murray, 1943), are used to obtain idiographic data.  

Although idiographic data are usually difficult to analyze on a group basis, Kline (1979) suggests that a content analysis of idiographic data can be used to convert the individualized personality data to a nomothetic form.  This involves evaluating the idiographic data for the presence or absense of a selected personality characteristic, resulting in a dichotomous score (e.g., 0 if not present and 1 if present) for the characteristic for each subject.  Of course, the criteria for determinnig the presence or absence of the personality characteristic should be available prior to the analysis of the idiographic data.  In addition, several raters should be used to determine interrater reliability.*****

Now...WTF this all means is SO FAR BEYOND ME.  But, this book was written in 1991, so in the first paragraph, they called the test the MCMI-II.  However, when looking at a forensic psychology site, the "letters" have been changed to what you said, MMCI, but the actual name, Millon Clinical Multiaxial Inventory-II is the same.  

Because I originally did my search with the word MILLION, I found next to nothing...but I searched the word MILLON (without the I because this book doesn't have an "I") I came up with a shitload of info.  Wish I would have searched before typing all that above crap out...lol

http://www.pearsonassessments.com/tests/mcmi_2.htm

http://cps.nova.edu/~cpphelp/MCMI-2.html

I could go on and on and on...but can't figure any of this psychological crap out.  

[gmaoftwo]

Seems to me I read a long time ago that the Millon test results were not very accurate....maybe too much leeway for interpretation??  Don't remember if I read that on this site or not, but you might want to check it out.

[hwy2001]

MMCI?

Or rather: MMPI?

cu

hwy2001

[Forthelittleones]

It is interesting in Feb 2004, BM dropped the case.  DH then filed for it to be heard as he felt mom was using the system against him.  Finally in July 2005, we took the tests and interviews.  We are currently waiting for the report - should be any day now.

Wow - time really flies!

[gipsy]

I took the MMCI , The MMPI , And the Rorshack Ink Blot test ,
   My advise . DON"T think it really works . The Mother lied Her @$$ Off and they favored her , I told the truth , And The results, in My mind were quite twisted , Heres a real Stupid one for ya ,
  One of the tests asks if I desire close friendships , I put "NO'
  The reason is I have friends , And I don't desire them I have them "
   Well The wacko evaluater reported that I was anti socliall becuase I checked off 'no' ,
  There were a number of these types of questions and the Psych evaluater can Make ANYTHING  He chooses to out of the results ,
   And don't expect it to turn any thing up on her , Real Wierdos go to the test and lie , And I Asked the evaluater How he could tell if some one lied , He said " Well there is a question Like "  My head feels large and squishy " and he could tell by questions like this If you were telling the truth , Ya Right , I feel that I am based in reality , And that Is one of the things the evaluater wrote about me ,
  He said " Mr X Tries very hard to make sure that His answeres are correct as far as being accurate , And then say's He does this do the degree that It is a detriment <
  All kinds of Bullshit , Here's My advice , If this so called evaluater is not a member of the APA , American Psychiatric Association , Get one that is , I called Wash state , And The one that did Mine Is not , And the person At the wash state dept of health told me there are very little laws that govern psych evals , And that Thomas Clifford has 9 Complaints against him ,
 My atty told me this could be a reason to appeal My case Altogether ,
SO
 Read on this site the section about evaluations , And have ready to talk about as many GOOD stories about life , Child hood , And your relationship with the children ready , And DO NOT ! Get caught up at all talking about the problems , Make them think you live well . Don't go in With Unexpected questions the evaluater will ask questions that generally are about quality of life and your past , HAVE GOOD STORIES remmembered < Secondly I have a friend thats a Psychiatrist , And he told me " they only know what you tell them "
  Think long and hard about that , And don't tell them any thing Bad about your self even if you think its normal , And DON"T think that any one can get to the truth and facts about you in few hours of testing and interviews etc , ITS impossible , Unless you still believe in SAnta ,
 As far as I am concerned this is a joke a sick joke , And As I went through it I found that the judges don't even really believe in it , But all the players involved are nothing but exposeure to people that will write reports that will effect your life for a very long time ,
 AGAIN Read on this site about Psychiatric testing and follow it too a T
   I said " Follow it to a T
  This is not a joke and even if you know as I know, the ex is a psycho . And many people that have known her for years , Know she's wacked , DO not expect This testing to  be good for you no matter How much you think she is far worse off than you ,
  BTW what state are you from ,

[gipsy]

Get a grip this test CAN'T get to the truth . I personally have worked for a man I think is intelligent , And a psychiatrist , He refuses to do custody evaluations , Because He said , " You Can't evaluate some one for 6 or 8 hrs and come to a custody conlusion , HE REFUSES THEM BASED ON THIS
  Secondly I have a personal friend that Is a Psychiatrist .
  And he told me point blank " they only know what you tell them" . And "the test is very subjective " " Especialy if the correct procedure for follow up questions is not followed " Read My other post " And don;t yet speak untill you have completed the test
 I Took the test's and there is absoolutely zero trick questions on there that could really determine any thing that is not 75% Subjective to the opinion of the evaluater ,
 Trust me I took all the tests and the psycho lied absolutely , And she did much better than I did , Remmember . I know her past < and she did not have the dream world child hood or any thing reported by the evaluater that she told him
 Listen up
 This women had a very dismissive child hood < And was Molested . Has a history of lying . And virtually EVERY ONE  I know that knew her from child hood thinks she is a nut case , And In My situation she lied through out the courts process , And the evaluations , And I proved it to the GAL with video tapes , But she lied and did well on the Psych evals ,
  DON"T think these evaluations are any thing but subjective > And exposeure to people that think they work <
  Remmember I just wrote , I worked for a guy that is a Psych , And have a friend that is one , And on a personal level they both told me what they think , read My other post , Get a grip ,
  Do not go to this test thinking that if you lie there is some complex rubics cube formula that makes bells and whistles go off and say LIAR >LIAR LIAR , Aint gonna happen ,

[Forthelittleones]

The case is in OH.  So far, the Judge and GAL do not like Mom and think she is harming the child.  Even the old GAL said that if mom continued to deny dad, then a change of custody was in order.

We will see what the report says.

[gipsy]

sounds good for you so far , My two cents < Don;t get cocky , Don't react or interact with the disfunction , Just be a good parent . I reacted , And I really did not do much , But these psycho's have a way of trying to Turn it all around And blame you if you do anything , And they can be the provocaters , And In an amazing way make it look like you are the bad one and make it all makes some sort of sense ,

[hagatha]

FTLO,

As I remember this test called "Minnisota Multphasic Personality Inventory See:http://www.pearsonassessments.com/tests/mmpi_2.htm#quickfacts

I believe the test was designed to look for and identify personality disorders. There are over 500 true/false qustions. There are also quite a number of questions that are asked over and over but worded differently each time. It will show how truthful the person taking the test would be.

I have found most employers will use similar test criteria on job applications.

Used correctly, it can be a wonderful tool to evaluate a persons personality and truthfullness. Just answer the questions honestly and you will do fine.

The Witch

Remember . . . KARMA is a Wonderful Thing!!!!!

[gipsy]

I think people that have not taken the test do not realise why I put info in my post stateing , I think they are a joke , Its not how many questons there is or what they may show , Its very subjective , My atty stressed this , And tried to divert the whole thing , Atty told me the tests are accepted as subjective by the court , And unless someone  is really wacked they don't tell any thing , Thomas Clifford . Whom administered the test has [9] Complaints filed against him and my atty told me this could be a reason to appeal the whole test/case  if I wanted,
     Going into it Thomas Clifford Told me Him self , The testing is very difficult to tell any thing when people are functional enough to have jobs cars etc , He said Its really hard to tell any thing , As a matter of fact very little of what he said had any thing to do with the test results , And a whole lot of his report Had to do with His belief in My psycho's absolute lies and exagerrations , And a falsified letter presented to him By the psycho , Probably 95% of his report was based on wrong information , And is a repetitious rambling ,THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TEST RESULTS !!! And in some parts he said the mother scored very weak in reality testing , And Probably has a very good imagination and fantasy world , In spite of this
     Clifford reports that the mother was more mentaly healthy than me , Although He states that the test reveals about me that I Work very hard at making sure what I say is correct in accordance to fact , And I scored very High in reality testing , But then puts a negative demeaner in the report against me saying that because of this I , Probably am very un- Imaginative ,
  But then inspite of his report saying that I was way into reality said that I probably have more of imaginative relationships with people that are not based on fact, but fantasy ,
 You tell me what the test revealed , That kind of contradiction Is so stupid and ridicoulous , That any moron could see the fault in it ,  My wife was disgusted .
  Tell me why would the evaluater put probablility about what type of wife I may have , NUT , But he did write ,even about my wife , the APA American Psychological Association , Has rules against even writeing probabilty about A person that was not tested , BUT HE DID write even about my wife whom he NEVER EVER even has seen ,
 Last but mot least in this I talked to an expert in child custody issues . He happened to be a counselor that worked in the field for twenty years .
 And guess what < He told me the judge doesn't usually even read the Psych evals , Becuase they know they are subjective ,
 I have written in My other posts truthfull accurate and real info I have recieved from other proffessionals , And My expirience with Taking the MMCI the MMPI And the RORSHACK ink blot test , There is no one or the other ,and there are different versions of the MMPI Becuase it was developed years ago , And they have a group that believs the test is out dated because from Like 1930'S to now, society has changed , And these people belive the old MMPI Is out dated becuase of this . I am tired of people on here stateing statistics and test question numbers and hOW IT COULD REVEAL  truthfullness Becuase the test is supposed to be Bullet proof , And if santa exists so does the thought that the test could tell if you are lying , Untill you have taken the test as I have , I suggest you state that although you have not taken it YOU THINK some superstitious things about it because you read info about it , I have read the info , And talked to educated and impressive people on  a personal level as stated in My other posts , And I also asked these other psychiatrist if they think the test could tell if you lied , And the answer was 100% NO!!!, I'm not telling any one to lie , But the test cannot tell if you did a crime 20 years ago . Or any thing of the likes , Or if you have been in treatment for mental disorders , Nothing nada < Take the test and then speak your part . Untill then state your theory as what it is , YOUR THEORY .
  NO ONE !!! Should go into this test thinking they will get boxed In Like a Perry Mason Movie . CAN'T and won't Happen , And don't even think It will win you custody . In the case discussed in the context , I would venutr to say the test is not even neccesary , A judge hearing the case and the issue would come to a decent conclusion , With out these tests, And that is verified in some of the info On this site . Yes there is Info clearly stated that a good family law judge will figure it out , And what I'm not getting is why this GAl is soo weak that although the patterns are there for a change of custody , The GAL needs One more step to clinch it ? WTF ! Can't the GAL make a decision ? Or is this As I say Just more exposure because the GAL can't voice her own apinion ?

[hagatha]

Gypsy,

In your case the administrator of the test was not compedent. But that doesn't mean everyone administering the test will be bad. That is not to say they would be the greatest either.

In our case the administrator did have a PHD and was Very good at her job. She picked up things about my childhood I did not feel necessary to reveal and completely understood why I would choose to keep some very personal things out of the courts.

Her overall evaluation did not include the abuse in my childhood, but was very in depth of mommy dearests deception of her own less that stellar upbringing. Her evaluation stated mommy dearest on some level actually believes her lies to be true. Stated mommy dearest had major problems with inter personal relationships. Stated anti-social behavior. Stated noted aggression. Her report actually stated mommy dearest has lied so much and so often she, mommy can not be trusted to be honest and truthful.

Since SD, once known as the brat, was also evaluated and given similar tests there was a lot the administrator revealed about her. Mostly that SD would outright lie if she believed it would benefit her situation.  Also noted was the knowledge SD had of the custody battle and how SD learned at mommy's knee to manipulate those around her to gradify her own needs even if lying would put herself or those she loved in difficult situations.

One of the best things this lady did during the evaluations was discuss with me tools we would need to combat mommy's attempts to alienate and SD attempts to manipulate.

While we did not end up with primary custody, those tools and the results of the tests and evaluation did help with the ultimate goal. Getting SD to be a healthy, productive adult. One that has a wonderful relationship with us and our family. And an adult that sees her family, immediate and extended as people that love her. Not people to manipulate.

 The Witch

Remember . . . KARMA is a Wonderful Thing!!!!!

[Forthelittleones]

Thanks Hagatha!

That was very nice to hear and may end up happening with DH's oldest.

As for his youngest. We will see.

Forthelittleones

[determined]

1.  A single test in isolation is essentially meaningless.  Even GALs will typically request multiple tests.

2.  The SPARC site is fairly good in describing some of the key tests such as the RORSHACK, MMPI, etc.

3.  Even multiple independent assessments with such testing cannot avoid the subjective nature of the tests.

4.  Exposure to the psychological community and familiarity with their expectations and language provides a strong advantage.  

As a result, individuals who have serious emotional issues for which they have been seeing a shrink for decades and can't hold a job may look better than some ignorant working stiff who has never been in a shrink's office in his life and thus is not prepared to tell the "evaluator" the answers that the evaluator wants to hear in the language that the evaluator is familiar with.

5.  Keep in mind that the normative basis for much of the statistics employed individuals who had been submitted for treatment because of behavioural issues.  Hence, their interpretation outside of these groups becomes more questionable.

6.  The older tests (e.g., RORSHACK) are perhaps the least reliable.

7.  Personality testing cannot ever be any better than the junk science that invents these "personality disorders" and then tries to classify people into these categories.  

I have been most amused recently reading about the new "Irritable Male Syndrome (IMS)" that sounds to me like stressed or grumpy old men as well as the new "Intermittent Explosive Disorder (IED)" that sounds to me like an angry person who doesn't respond well to stress.  In Iraq we understood what an IED really was (Improvised Explosive Device).

[gipsy]

Ahmen ! Some else gets it, I am the working stiff ! And didn't have the proper words used , But You put it very well , And I was told By many , Including My atty , Whom tried to persuade me to not even take the tests for the reason you state , These tests are subjective . Many people an here think because these evaluaters hit a few  nails on the head about there past these tests really work , Well let me tell ya , I can get a few right about people just because I am forty two , and have lived a bit . It doesn't take a psychiatrist to figure out if some one is a bit disfunctional

[olanna]

the judge and just poking my head in here, I find it quite presumptuous of the GAL to make statements like she did.

She can file a motion for whatever she wishes, but it is ultimately up to the judge to make a final decision on this.

[Forthelittleones]

In the two counties we deal with, the Judge will go with the GAL 95% of the time.

with SS - it was the GAL that recognized all the abuse and lovely stuff BM was doing.  DH is now custodial.

with SD - BM blocks all visitation, yet the Evaluator report says kid needs to stay there.  GAL will decide what the best visitation schedule is since DH has 10% of the time and BM has 90% which is way off for a LD visitation schedule.

[olanna]

As the GAL in my case wanted me to retain custody...but the judge gave my ex custody.

No matter, it's all resolved now. My son is back in my home....but 5 years ago, he was yanked out my house.

I think it would be a great idea we just got the judges out of the picture and let the evaluator make the decision.