Discipline vs. Abuse

[kitten]

I need opinions on what you all think about washing a 4 year old mouth out with soap.  I myself would not do it and neither would DH, but he just found out that BM did this recently.  He says neither of them ever have and agreed never would discipline the children in this way.  Discipline or Abuse?

[flewwellin]

Definitely Discipline. I believe that children need to be punished for what they do bad and rewarded for what they do well.  Depends on what the 4 year old was doing would determine the extent of the punishment.  

[kitten]

She called her older brother an a$$hole.  The children have not been allowed to see their father for 8 months and have not been to counseling.  

[jilly]

I odn't think I'd call it either one but not sure what to call it. Bad judgment I guess. I do know that it's dangerous to wash a child's mouth out with soap.  Not much you can do about it after the fact.  I'm sure the 4 year old was just repeating what'd she heard somebody else say.

[kitten]

Thank you for the replies.  My concern here is that this is the first phase of more damaging physical/emotional abuse.  All 3 skids have begun to act out with bm and new husband because of missing their Dad.  Like I said before, when bm and dh were married, they never punished the children in this way.  We are concerned that bm is going along with the husband and he has a known history of physical abuse against a former ss.

[jilly]

Guess she got what she asked for then huh?  Judge gave her the green light to move, which helped her accomplish her mission of keeping Will from having a relationship with the kids.  Now she's dealing with the consequences.  Unfortunatley. this is a sucky situation for the kids :(

[kitten]

Yes, she deserves it all right.  It is so frustrating to be so helpless feeling as though they are in the hands of an abuser (now two) with no way to intervene.  One or more of them will actually have to be hurt for Will to have any chance of getting them back.  Thanks again Jilly.  I needed to talk this out.

[SadStepMom]

Honestly, washing my son's mouth out with soap has been the most effective punishment.  But me doing so was limited to one drop of dish soap in his mouth.  I have done it twice, once right about when he turned 4 and once again shortly after turning 5.  It has been a much better behavior modifier than any other method of discipline that I have tried.

But I certainly can see where if someone used a much larger quantity of soap it could certainly be abusive.

[flewwellin]

Then I definitely believe that it warranted the actions taken. I'd have washed her mouth out with soup too.  Time out, taking away game systems, spankings, etc. will do absolutely nothing to help this.  counceling and seeing their father has nothing to do with it in my opinion.  Sorry she's not been able to see her daddy but the truth of the matter is she said a dirty word and is 4 she needs to be punished.

[mc24]

I tried to post this already, but something happened.   Don't know where it went  :)  

Anyway, I don't believe you should punish a child for saying a bad word the first time it happens.  Kids are gonna repeat what they hear, and don't know any better - the first time.  The first time I heard either of my kids say a bad word, I explained that they are to never ever use that kind of language.  That it is a grown up word, and a bad word not for kids to say.  I made it all like a big deal   "OH NO, you should NEVER say that word - that is a REALLY BAD word".  That kind of thing.  They each understood and neither of them has ever said another bad word.

However, if that doesn't work, and they are doing it all the time after they know better and you can't get a handle on it, I wouldn't call someone abusive for using soap.  I can't imagine doing it myself, b/c how in the world do you get the soap in their mouth?  I would think you would have to hold them down and pry their little mouth open and that might become abusive or traumatic for them at least.  

I liked the way they did it in "A Christmas Story"  He just had to hold the bar of soap in his mouth for a full minute.  

[I cry_ in_the_dark]

I did, at one time, wash my child's mouth out with soap, until the day on the news...

A crying child inhaled the soap and died. I never did it again.

[kitten]

When my daughter was 3, she discoverd the "F" word.  The mother of all bad words!  Just like in A Christmas Story.  Would I have chased her down and rammed a bar of soap in her mouth?  NEVER.  We had a conversation about bad words and it never happened again, she's 9 now.  Would I shove a bar of soap in my now 9 year olds mouth?  NEVER.  I don't need to anyway, I paved the proper path from the beginning.  The path of mutual respect.  

[I cry_ in_the_dark]

I did, at one time, wash my child's mouth out with soap, until the day on the news...

A crying child inhaled the soap and died. I never did it again.

[kitten]

When my daughter was 3, she discoverd the "F" word.  The mother of all bad words!  Just like in A Christmas Story.  Would I have chased her down and rammed a bar of soap in her mouth?  NEVER.  We had a conversation about bad words and it never happened again, she's 9 now.  Would I shove a bar of soap in my now 9 year olds mouth?  NEVER.  I don't need to anyway, I paved the proper path from the beginning.  The path of mutual respect.  

[Kitty C.]

I found out within the past year that soap in a child's mouth is considered abuse by Iowa DHS standards.  And how many of us chewed on a bar of Ivory so many years ago, with no ill effects except to learn we NEVER repeated those words again!

[msme]

My mom used red pepper but according to Texas CPS, Soap & red pepper are considered forms of abuse. Of course, you are allowed to serve food that is so spicey hot that your lips peel off but cannot put a dash of red pepper on the tongue.

gr8Dad used to call it lie powder. He told the kids that it wouldn't burn if you were telling the truth. It only took one dose. They would see the can & fess up. LOL  :P

You never get a second chance to make a first impression!

[MixedBag]

I'd side with discipline, but you bring up a good point.

[kitten]

Thank you all for your opinions.  

[4honor]

 DS1 was about 4 and had picked up some choice words from the pre-teen neighborhood kids and SS.  He wouldn't quit repeating the words He used the "F" word and the "C" word and ran around calling people at church the "B" word (I was appropriately mortified).

I used 1 drop of tabasco on the tongue (Yes a whole drop from the bottle).

It sort of worked, or so I thought, until I caught DS1 in the refrigerator drinking from the bottle.

So much for it being a punishment!

[TPK]

I had a discussion this past weekend with my parents & relatives about hitting a child. I have a 15 month old daughter, I'm the NCP.

I remember when I was young that my dad whipped up on me and my brother pretty good. Not to say we didn't deserve what we got, he didn't get the belt out unless we did something. Back then (1970s) hitting your child seemed to go without much notice. Nowadays with CPS and such, it would seem that your child would be taken away if you took the belt to them.

I can't see myself even spanking my child in the future. I have wondered how other parents discipline their children.

How many parents here spank their child(ren)?


I hated getting whipped on, so maybe that's why I can't see myself even laying a spanking down on my child. My father wasn't an alcoholic or a bully for the most part, he probably thought "this is how your do it".

I sometimes wonder in the future what I'll do. I have to confess I was a terror in my teen years. I was always in trouble.


TPK

[MYSONSDAD]

About two years ago, I posted a local story of how a boyfriend forced a four year old boy to drink liquid dish soap. The child died.

I did not save it, but a google search might bring it up.

I myself, would have the child kneel in the corner, with their nose firmly in place.

[msme]

Spanking around here is a last resort & the child knows well in advance that if a certain behavior doesn't stop they will get spanked & exactly how many times. Usually it is 3 but something horrible would get 5 licks.

Before it gets to that, they are made to write positive affirmations about what took place. The length of the sentence & the number vary with the child & the crime. Remember, we have 8 between 7 & 14.

If the 7 year olds are being stubborn, they might have to write, "I must do as I am told," about 15 or 20 times. While the older ones who are quick to squabble over their things, might write something like, "I know I must respect other peoples property," 50 times.

Usually all it takes is the magic question. "Are you telling me that you want to do some writing?" Boy do they shape up in a hurry.

You never get a second chance to make a first impression!

[kitten]

>I myself, would have the child kneel in the corner, with their
>nose firmly in place.


I agree with the good old time out, nose in the corner method myself.  With a side of talking with the child about why the action is unacceptable.

[Genie]

for using some foul language when doing something. Believe me we never talked that way again.  My Mom made sure it was in between the teeth then we had to sit there for 1/2 hour before we could brush our teeth.

As you can tell I don't think it is abuse.  Now for a 4 yr old that is a little extreme.  Realistically, the toddler used it for the first time b/c she heard someone else (her Mom or Step Dad?) use it and is just repeating it. Toddlers do that when they are learning to talk. You know that.  I think this kind of discipline should be reserved for older children who know better than to say that.  At 4 yrs old the child should be given a time out or something and explained to that this is not a word that he/she will be using in the future.

As for her disciplining in agreed upon manners.  That won't happen.  You know by now that she doesn't care what he wants done or not.

Has DH stopped moping around yet and filed any papers?  Sorry I am harsh hear but you guys had kinda split before b/c of his moping and anger management issues.  Has things gotten better. And you are calling him DH now not BF.  Any news we should know about?

[kitten]

Yes, he has picked himself up and decided to live his life.  We are back together, but not married yet.  Don't know why I used "DH", just typing in a hurry I guess.  He has found better ways to greive.  
He still has not seen the kids.  She still is playing games, PAS etc...
OSS says he lives in a prison because SF won't let them talk or make any noise when he gets home from work.  They are not allowed to ask for anything.  
Basically, without money there is not much BF can do.  This battle has cost in excess of $60, 000.  There is nothing left.