Messages

Hypothetical situation. There is no child support order between Mom A and Dad A, who are now split. For the last 10 years they have taken care of normal, everyday expenses for child within each home and then split big expenses like education, outside sports, dance, etc. Or so Dad A always thought. In fact, since Mom A got remarried 10 years ago, she hasn't actually paid any of these large outside expenses even though she continues to work and earn same income as before. She has convinced her new spouse to pay these outside expenses, which can run between 10 and 20 K a year. But she never told Dad A about this. Dad A learned about this when a financial statement arrived at his house showing new spouse's contributions.

Question: The law says both bio parents are to pay equal child expenses. Dad A totally agrees, but this news has changed his opinion about HIS PARTICULAR SITUATION (not the national law). Dad A has informed Mom A that they must rethink division of expenses. Mom A maintains she will seek court support order if Dad lowers contribution. Will a judge take into consideration who has actually been paying expenses or completely ignore that and issue an order solely according to Mom A and Dad A's income? (No other children from either marriage.)

How/Who they marry after the separation is not the other parents concern. Ex-husband may get remarried and move into new wife's residence and housing costs go down or eliminated too.

Yes. And that would mean that the ex-husband's expenses would be less by thousands of dollars a year. So why should the ex-wife keep paying the same child support if, let's say, the situation were 70-30, with the husband having 70? Its seems that if the two ex's have the same income but very different basic expenses (like housing), that should be factored in.

The situation is that ex wants to have child with her more nights. It's now two more a month with me. She is going to be working at her company's headquarters now, and can't spend long afternoons at home with child like she used to. I'm still working the same amount. I don't like the idea too much. What happens when she starts working from home again? There is no child support order.

I said I want to leave it like it is. Now she tells me she'll start working a day less or it will be too long between times she and our daughter are together and she says it's "unhealthy." She says that this may jeopardize her employment position in which case there will be no money at all and now it's pretty 50.50 down the middle. (Though she could easily find another job.)  But this would be jeopardizing her own life too! Can she do this? Has anyone else had this come up? She can take the afternoons under the agreement and she says that if that's the only way her and child will be together, then so be it, but she's not going to deplete her finances on court trying to get a modification that I will fight her on. Any help appreciated.

I am sort of new to this. I am trying to understand why support guidelines do not include housing expenses.

For example, Ex-husband X and Ex-wife Y each make 60K annually. But ex-wife does not pay housing expense because she remarried and the current husband owns home outright. But ex-husband X pays the same rent he always paid and child lives with him 50% of the time.

Housing is a child expense just like medical care, child care, etc.  And it's a pretty large one. Then why is it exempted?

Thanks!

Thank you. These are all good ideas. I think the main reason I have a hard time agreeing is that she has had so much more time with child over the years. Since we have right of first refusal, if she wasn't working she would spend the afternoon with her while I was at work. That amounted to a lot more time. Just because she has this new job outside her home, she thinks I should give up nights so we can maintain equality. Maybe you're right and I should go along with a new night schedule. I don't want to deal with court.

On the money we have only paid 50/50 for two years on the really large expenses, so there isn't this long history or paper trail to go on. Now she's saying that if she has to hire a lawyer, she absolutely won't go 50/50 because the legal fees will drain her. It seems to me that using these tactics to get me to modify is going about it all the wrong way.

Thanks, Ocean. No, we never had a child support order because money had never been used like this. We always figured 50/50 financial commitment was just the right thing to do because we loved our child. So this came as a real surprise. I also don't think I should have to bargain anything with a hammer over my head like this. I think she should give me time to process it and then I can let her know. But how can I even give it serious thought if I am being threatened? And let's suppose I did modify the night like she wants me to do? I don't think the deal would be valid because I was forced to make it under pressure. I'm pretty sure that's what the law says.

I think our child is fine either way. She's isn't pleading for more time with mom because she has been with her so much time during the day. By the way, that is time that daughter wasn't with me. So mom has had a leg up and now she just wants more. Don't judges dislike that kind of behavior?

Somehow I think that she will have more time off again during the day and it's guaranteed that if she does, she'll take the time with our child. Honestly, I'm not liking how her work schedule changes so much either. 

We don't have an issue with primary because it is technically shared custody even though she's more nights with me.

I know ex pretty well and I'm 99% sure that if she got the 50/50 nights that she would leave the money at 50/50 because she thinks that if I pay more, I'll try to exert more control over things. I know that her now saying she'll pay less doesn't really make sense with that, but I think she thinks I'll just roll over with this extortion. But you could be right. Maybe she is planning that.

I tend to think that the judge will not allow her to reduce some of these big education payments because she's been paying 50/50 all along and so there is a pattern. I'm also interested to know how she will say circumstances have changed enough to warrant modification. I have heard and read that courts require that or they won't even hear the case.

Our child is 12. Time-sharing agreement with ex says she's 16 nights of the month with Dad and 12 nights with Mom. Ex wants us to change it now so that she is same number of nights with both of us, 14 and 14. I do not want to change it because it's been this way since she was 4. She is with Mom during the day many days when I'm working. That happens during summers too. Her schedule is more flexible because she can work from home. But that is about to end and she will start going in to work.

Now she's trying to blackmail me. Although we don't have a financial agreement, everything has always been 50-50, no problem. I make quite a bit more than she does, but she never argued about money. But for a long time she has not been happy with the time-sharing. Last month she told me that she'd cut back her contributions to education, dance lessons, school trips and all major non-household expenses if I refused to change the schedule so that the time is equal. She won't say how much but she probably would cut it back to 30 or 40%. She wants my answer in the next few weeks. I told her I am willing to think about this but not if she's blackmailing me. She thinks I'm yanking her chain and I have no intention of ever changing. We have lots of bills about to come due but I am not willing to make any changes with a hammer over my head. Should I just get a lawyer? I think a judge will tell her that she's always paid half so she has to continue. I also think that blackmail is illegal. I think the judge will also tell her that finances can't be used to force me to change time-sharing especially because this has to do with our child's very important needs. Has anyone been in this situation or know what judges say? We're not talking about a small amount of money. I told her if she doesn't like the time-sharing, why doesn't she just take me to court? I think she just doesn't want to pay a lawyer.

Same in NY:
If father was never married to mother, he must prove paternity either by test through the courts or signing the paternity form in the hospital. After that, father has to file custody and visitation papers. Father will get joint legal custody here BUT will not get joint physical custody ordered unless the parents worked that out. It is very rare here for fathers to get more than the standard visitation. Sad but still true with the family court system.

Yes, NY state is well-known for remaining in the dark ages when it come to fathers, married or unmarried.

When it comes to unmarried parents, the law has the unintended consequence of promoting a situation where a child is cut off from his or her father because the mother refused to marry the father after he got her pregnant. If she doesn't want the father in the child's life, the court will probably side with her, even though the father had asked her to marry him once she became pregnant or after the child was born.

Not a child-friendly law, to be sure.

In any case, these laws vary by state. According to one website:

"In states like Michigan (http://singleparents.about.com/od/childcustodylaws/a/michigan_child_custody_laws.htm), it is presumed that an unwed mother only has initial custody — as opposed to sole custody — even when the father is not on the birth certificate and has never signed a formal acknowledgment of parentage. 
"You should be aware, as well, that many states either make no presumption of custody based on whether the father is on the birth certificate, or presume joint custody even in cases where the parents were never married."

He doesn't indicate which state he's in but in NC:

"   Under state law, when a child is born to a married mother and father, that child is presumed to be a child of that marriage (North Carolina General Statute § 49‑12.1). This means that the father is automatically, in the eyes of the law, the legitimate father, and no further action is needed to establish paternity of the child.
     In contrast, when a child is born to an unmarried couple, a father's rights regarding that child are not immediately established. This is true even if the father is listed on the child's birth certificate. Paternity must first be established before a father can have any rights and obligations regarding visitation or support of his child.
     North Carolina statutes allow a child to be legitimized in one of two ways: through the subsequent marriage of the child's mother and father (North Carolina General Statute § 49‑12), or through the declaration made by the child's father to the court (North Carolina General Statute NCGS § 49‑10).
     Once paternity is established, an unmarried father has the same rights as a married father. This means a father has the right to visitation or custody of the child, as deemed appropriate by the court, and that the father has to fulfill support obligations owed to the child. If you are an unmarried father needing to establish your rights, contact your attorney for assistance through these court proceedings. "


Mother has immediate, continued and sole custody of the child. He has to establish paternity even if he's listed on the birth certificate and even then, he's not immediately granted the SAME rights as the married father, only that he's entitled as the court sees fit.

Again, check your laws. State laws vary. Many (most) states, for example, no longer call unmarried children "illegitimate," so no legitimizing as in the quote about NC above.

Also, many states do give father SAME rights as married father. For example, if a father has acknowledged that he is the father on the birth certificate, then his rights are automatically established. This is different from a mother writing some man's name on the certificate herself.

How can a mother have "immediate, continued and sole custody of the child" even in NC once the father's paternity is established there? If a legal judgment is made giving the father sole custody or half custody, then sole custody would not continue for the mother.

GA is the same as NC. According to one GA law blog:  If custody is to be an issue, father must still file legitimation first, and get the Order of Legitimation signed. Once child has been legitimated by the Court Order then father may file another action for custody. The exception to this rule is if the mother is deceased, there is no other legal parent or guardian, or the mother consents to custody. If father is already listed on the child's birth certificate as the father, but father and the child's mother were not married to one another, father must still file a petition with the court to legitimate his child.

I realized after I posted this that the moms board hasn't had a post in months. Not sure if this is a venue for women as well, if not disregard....
Some basics:I am 34 yrs old, I moved out of my marital residence in jan. I have a steady good paying job. And am a mom to a 3 1/2 yr old, I live in Kansas.

Background:I suffered from post partum depression. My soon to be ex didn't recognize it, nor did I, but wheni finally told him how I felt, he couldn't believe that I could be feeling like I didn't want to be around our son. This lead to many unravelings. First I reached out to another man and had an affair for a year. So to be ex found out about the affair through email, phone and friend email hacking. After he found out, he said I needed to end the affair or he would take my son from me. Bc after all, I didn't want him. The affair ended in early 2011 and I went into a deep depression. I felt trapped in a loveless relationship. I was too scared to leave bc of the threats, bc my ex made me feel like if I did anything I would ruin my sons life. In addition I drank. I got a DUI in 2010, continued to drive on a suspended license and sometimes still drove drunk. My life was destructive to say the least. I also took on a new job that required me to travel and entertain, not a great combination given the fact that I was already deep in the bottle.

I never drove drunk with my son. I did drink around him, I would pass out after he went to bed, but his father, my ex, was always there. I knew my son would be taken care of if I couldn't do it.

In 2012 I decided I couldn't do it anymore. I moved out, but agreed to counseling with my ex. We kept our sons life the same, so he wouldn't be affected until we knew the outcome of our relationship. This required me to get home around 10pm and be back at the marital house around 5am so he (son) wouldn't know I left. This wasn't ideal. I cried every night I left, but I knew I was doing what was best for him. I also changed jobs to one where I didn't have to travel as much and cut out the people who triggered me to drink. In April, my dad passed away, and my outlook on life has significantly changed. I adore my son, more than my heart can even beat. My drinking has gone from every night passing out to maybe a glass of wine with dinner.

My ex filed his petition before me, installing ome temporary orders that essentially say I can't stay overnight with him. (he hacked into my email again to see that my lawyer was set to file my orders the very next day, so he raced to court to get his in place first).  I counter filed and also filed my settlement proposal. I don't want his money, the house, or the items in the house. That is all material to me and I can support myself and my child with my salary. I wrote up a very specific 50/50 plan. Basically m/t with me, w/t with dad, fri with me, sat with dad, Sunday morning with dad, Sunday afternoon with me. He came back with the minimum, basically 2 hrs 2 nights a week and one 8 hour over the weekend with no overnights. He indicated I am an unfit mother and have an alcohol abuse problem and that unless I go to aa for 90 days I will never get overnights. He indicates that my past behavior has him concerned for the well being of the child. So my lawyer balks at this, says the only thing on record is a DUI, upon which I completed my probation successfully. She asks for mediation. Ex says to me tonight that I need to watch my back bc the only thing that will come about in mediation is that I will have supervised visits one night a week. He says he hates me and that I need to suffer and face the consequences for my actions.

I am scared. I am saddened bc he is using our son as a pawn in this divorce. I am so mad bc I thought maybe he would be mature enough to realize that agreeing to something that is even is what is best for our son. And that if we can agree to something, the next 15 + years will not be spent in court argeuing over whaling to switch a weekend or a holiday. He can be a total jerk, so I know he wil be steadfast in whatever the court document says.

Can he really get supervised visits? I know I used to drink and made some terrible decisions, but my life is very different now.  He indicates that he doesn't know what I do anymore and I have to prove to him that I am capable of caring for our child. I never imagined I would ever be in this place.

If the roles were reversed, how would you act? Also, how much risk is there of you lapsing back into your old patterns? Only you can answer that. I would think that your ex is thinking more about your past behavior than your new self and that it will take a while before he accepts that your change is permanent. Put yourself in his place.