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Author Topic: Brain teaser?  (Read 3803 times)

wysiwyg

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Brain teaser?
« on: Dec 23, 2005, 12:49:04 PM »
Please decifer this for me:

One-half of the period which will begin at 8:00 P.M. on the evening the child is released from school (Dec 20) and continues to December 30 at 7:00 P.M.  If the parents cannot agree on the division of this period, the custodial parent shall have the first half in even-numbered years.  In those years when Christmas does not fall in a parent’s week, that parent shall have the child from Noon to 9:00 P.M. on Christmas Day.

My take:  Figure out the time between Dec 20 and Dec 30 and divide in half evening the "half" for the parent who gets noon to 9 so that each parent gets one half of the holiday.

BM says that since xmas falls in my half and my "half is over at 8 PM" the child will not come back to me at 9 since her "half starts at 8 PM.  I contend that the time is to be split in half totally and that the order is inteneded to split Chrsitmas with one parent getting 12-9 and the other parent getting to noon and after 9.  I also believe that you can not consider time NOT spent with me to be a portion of my half of the holiday.

Any ideas?


MixedBag

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RE: Brain teaser?
« Reply #1 on: Dec 23, 2005, 07:46:36 PM »
I think you're "concerned" because half of the break is over at midnight on the 25th.

Now think about it.....I agree that mom gets from 12-9 because you have the first half and Christmas falls on that half with the goal of splitting the day with the child.  

BUT the exchange for first and second half should happen at midnight on the 25th....

Consider the child -- what's really reasonable???

Or are you expecting/thinking of the exchange happening on the morning of the 26th???

Go by the "overnights" and this year you should be returning the child by the evening (probably 7 pm) of the 25th.

This half way point will move each year as the school breaks will start on different days.  NEXT year you'll get Christmas from 12-9 on Mom's time.

wysiwyg

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RE: Brain teaser?
« Reply #2 on: Dec 23, 2005, 08:07:36 PM »
if there are 10 days between 8 PM the 20 and 7 PM the 30, that would stand to reason that each parent get 5 days, meaning that that time would be over say 8 PM the 25th, follow so far?  But the clinker is that from 12-9 the child is with mom, so stand to reason that dad does not see the child for those 9 hours and the orders say that 12-9 thing, reaasonable says to me that dad gets child back at 9 pm and mom and dad should transfer off for her "half" starting the morng of the 26th.  At this point each parent gets an equivalent 5 days.

All kosher so far?  But mom states that dads "half" is over at 8 PM and he does not get the child past noon dec 25, then goes on to say that he does not get to make that up, which I believe that in all fairness on the holiday it should be that child come back  to dad to finsh out the evening with him.  This means then that dad gets 4 days mom gets 6, add to the pot that mom TOOK the forst 2 days of dads holiday and now mom has 8 dad has 2.  

lucky

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RE: Brain teaser?
« Reply #3 on: Dec 24, 2005, 12:16:14 AM »
In most (I'd bet) COs, holiday time supercedes the regular time.

Next year, will you want her to count the time with you on Xmas day AGAINST YOUR half of the break?  It's a two way street and it doesn't seem as though you are looking past this year.

[em]Lucky

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- Will Rogers[em]
Lucky

Lead your life so you wouldn't be ashamed to sell the family parrot to the town gossip. ~  Will Rogers

wysiwyg

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RE: Brain teaser?
« Reply #4 on: Dec 24, 2005, 07:54:23 AM »
You do not understand - there is NO REGULAR time figured here!  

I am looking past this year - this is why I asked, next year it will be the same thing - only we will have the second half which incidently Christmas will fall again in my half.


Imom

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RE: Brain teaser?
« Reply #5 on: Dec 24, 2005, 10:01:04 AM »
I am in Indiana too and this is the way you break it down....

Dec. 20 at 8pm - Dec. 21 at 8pm = 1 day

Dec. 21 at 8pm - Dec. 22 at 8pm = 1 day

Dec. 22 at 8pm - Dec. 23 at 8pm = 1 day

Dec. 23 at 8pm - Dec. 24 at 8pm = 1 day

Dec. 24 at 8pm - Dec. 25 at 8pm = 1 day

Dec. 25 at 8pm - Dec. 26 at 8pm = 1 day

Dec. 26 at 8pm - Dec. 27 at 8pm = 1 day

Dec. 27 at 8pm - Dec. 28 at 8pm = 1 day

Dec. 28 at 9pm - Dec. 29 at 8pm = 1 day

Dec. 29 at 8pm - Dec. 30 at 7pm = 1 day

So there are 10 days to split.......Are are to do this BEFORE you see who has x-mas from 12pm-9pm......lets do so, With your post I am assuming you are taking the first half....so

Your 5 days are:

Dec. 20 at 8pm - Dec. 21 at 8pm = 1 day

Dec. 21 at 8pm - Dec. 22 at 8pm = 1 day

Dec. 22 at 8pm - Dec. 23 at 8pm = 1 day

Dec. 23 at 8pm - Dec. 24 at 8pm = 1 day

Dec. 24 at 8pm - Dec. 25 at 8pm = 1 day

Mom's are:

Dec. 25 at 8pm - Dec. 26 at 8pm = 1 day

Dec. 26 at 8pm - Dec. 27 at 8pm = 1 day

Dec. 27 at 8pm - Dec. 28 at 8pm = 1 day

Dec. 28 at 9pm - Dec. 29 at 8pm = 1 day

Dec. 29 at 8pm - Dec. 30 at 7pm = 1 day

Now when you look at the schedule you will see that x-mas day DOES fall on your half....therefore the bm WOULD get them at 12PM on Christmas day Per order and keeps then until 9PM BUT there is that gray area since her half of the vacation DOES start at 8PM on the 25th PER schedule then she does not have to return them.

This is an order that your ARE to follow if you 2 can not agree to other arrangements....do I things its wrong yep......you could ask for a clarification but how often is this going to happen? Just wait until there are an uneven amount of time to split there could have been only 9 days or 11 thats a joke with these guidelines when it comes to x-mas.......


lucky

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RE: Brain teaser?
« Reply #6 on: Dec 24, 2005, 10:05:33 AM »
You're right.  I re-read the original post and your order is vague and needs to be clarified.

However, it still sounds to me that the period is to be split in half THEN the noon to 9:00 is on top of that.  Basically it sounds to me that the judge was thinking that one parent gets Xmas Eve & morning and the other parent gets Xmas Day.  Which means that whoever's week it is that Xmas falls in they "lose" those nine hours.

As for the two days that she took from the beginning, that would be grounds for a) asking for makeup time then when she refuses, b) contempt grounds.

I know it's hard and I know it sucks, but you HAVE to look at it objectively.  A judge is not going to be happy to hear about an argument over a few hours -- your child will be sleeping most of the time you want on Dec. 25-26 so that's really all it amounts to: a few hours.

[em]Lucky

Lead your life so you wouldn't be ashamed to sell the family parrot to the town gossip.
- Will Rogers[em]
Lucky

Lead your life so you wouldn't be ashamed to sell the family parrot to the town gossip. ~  Will Rogers

wysiwyg

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RE: Brain teaser?
« Reply #7 on: Dec 24, 2005, 10:35:36 AM »
I see and can agree with your reasoning, but the reason I ask is beacsue BM flips on/off like a light switch, in the last odd year she clasimed it was unfair for either parent to have the 24th and the 25th in their half therefore she mediated and deviated from the guidleines (and that was ok becasue we have a court assigned case manager order reading = In the event that there is a dispute, and in the event the parties cannot resolve the dispute according to section I(E) of the guidelines, the parties must employ the Case Manager/Arbitrator to mediate the dispute and to resolve the dispute as authorized by the Court's separate appointment Order."

Situation:  BF asked for the second half of break becasue childs half sister will be on military leave on the 26th, the child's military brother will be that same week and the child's other sister will be off school break in the second half of break.  Child and sister are in 2 diff districts.  BF had to work last week and has time off in second half, SM had to also work, child would be home alone for break.  

BM refused to respond therefore all parties made vacation plans for the second half of break including BF from his job.  BM comes along and says no you have to take the first half, refuses for 6 months to enterinto mediation (even though the court did a seperate order in August ordering her into mediation within 2 weeks and she did not) therefore she contacted her attorney (not mediation) and BF resorted to the first half. Break started with her attorney adn her refusing to discuss a schedule therefore BF lost the first 2 days of break, as BM requested proper quthorization for BF to see child.  Therefor the way I see it the Guilines and the court order stating that when the parties can not agree with the guilines they are to enter into mediation to resolve the issue, but then waht do you do when one party refuses to do that and states that?  So basic bottom line is BM gets 8 days - BF gets 2, and BM refuses to go to mediation to resolve the issue for the child, and she has cost us nearly 800 in legal fees becasue she refused to discuss it with us for 6 months.  

Can you see the frustration?  

4honor

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RE: Brain teaser?
« Reply #8 on: Dec 24, 2005, 01:40:15 PM »
I like to think in reasoning circles, so this is just my opinion. I am not a lawyer.

Since this is all in the same paragraph, and the main sentence in the paragraph is 1/2 of the period (denoting time, not calendar days) this should be broken in half with each parent getting 4 (24-hour) days, 11.5 hours, no matter how you slice it up.

Your order is pretty bad. Get it clarified or modified to give you each one half of the Winter break excluding (Noon) Dec 24 to Noon Dec 26th. Then address those days separately with NCP having eve/Morning in odd years and CP having eve/Morn in even years. The remainder of the time is split down to the hour and then make sure you are exchanging at a reasonable hour (not after 9 PM or before 6 AM).

If you got the kids at 5:30 PM on the 22nd, then you have until 2 PM on the 27th when you allow for BM's Christmas time on the 25th. (She got from 20th @ 8 to 22nd @ 5:30 PM, then from 12-9 on the 25th and from 2 PM on the 27th through the 30th.)

As for setting a prescident with this year, it is unlikely, cause NOTHING so far has been according to the order. Since this is an ODD numbered year and the plan says NOTHING about ODD numbered years, then you are "default agreeing" to a broken up split of the "period".

The order says in even numbered years the CP has the first HALF (so if this were 2006, you would be stuck with a half and half chunk by default). This year you could trade off every hour and meet the conditions of the plan the way it is written.
A true soldier fights, not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves whats behind him...dear parents, please remember not to continue to fight because you hate your ex, but because you love your children.

Imom

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RE: Brain teaser?
« Reply #9 on: Dec 24, 2005, 01:46:25 PM »
Have you asked your attorney to file contempt on 1. refusal of mediation and 2. denial of visitation (because if she failed to give the kids up on the 20th @ 8pm thats contempt)........?

There are a lot of gray areas in the guidelines....lucky we don't have to follow them......but I know a few people who do and posters on another state site do.

wysiwyg

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RE: Brain teaser?
« Reply #10 on: Dec 24, 2005, 02:31:28 PM »
See this is where I believe that anything that one might anticipate as black/white is really gray.  As we pointed out to the attorney that nothing was said about odd years that it only addresses the CP in Even years  Yes we can argue that very point in court but at what cost, only to PO a judge if he bleieves that the intent is to switch off.  The precident is that the last 2 years BM has figured out to the hour what each parent gets including going to mediation to get a schedule, but this year she refused and is now NOT going by the hours.  This is very much like birthdays in the Guidelines that state when the NCP is to have each child, but noting about CP therefore we gave up a day of our weekend for her to celebreate the child's birthday, again, believeing that the intent of the guidelines is to share between the parents.  The Guidelines also state to have all the children on each childs birthday, do we argue that half siblings get to have the conmpansionship of the Cp and NCP child on their birthday's?  

As you can see, there is so many angles to this, and in that BM is always changeing the rules, this is precisely why a case/manager mediator was assigned to this case.  But how you force one into mediation is another story as even with multiple orders for such BM still refuses to participate and That is not in the child's best interest.

Sadly the child will be leaving us tomorrow for his mother to cart him out of state without our knowledge (the child told us) and she will not tell us how to contact him or her (yes the orders specify she has to do this too) so we will probably be sitting at her place at 9 to get the child only to find him not home......................and knowing then that the reaility of him seeing his family who scheduled time off for him to be with him is not gonna happen.

wysiwyg

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RE: Brain teaser?
« Reply #11 on: Dec 24, 2005, 02:32:22 PM »
I am sure we will - but after the outcome of the hearing coming up.

Imom

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RE: Brain teaser?
« Reply #12 on: Dec 24, 2005, 03:01:12 PM »
The intent of the guidelines are to be that one year the CP gets "this" the next the NCP does......it only becomes a problem when you have these controling people that want to twist things around to fit only their WANTS.....

Just as for the birthday...........

[3] Child’s Birthday.  In even numbered years the non-custodial parent shall have all of the children on each child’s birthday from 9:00 A.M. until 9:00 P.M.  However, if the birthday falls on a school day, then from 5:00 P.M. until 8:00 P.M.  

 

In odd numbered years the non-custodial parent shall have all of the children on each child’s birthday on the day before the child’s birthday from 9:00 A.M. until 9:00 P.M., however, if such day falls on a school day, then from 5:00 P.M. until 8:00 P.M.            



********************************
Now say its your weekend and the child's b-day is Sat........and its the odd year then the Mother is to have the child from 9AM-9PM on the child's birthday. Now as you can read the guidelines do not STATE that but if you read between the lines its there and trust me you wanna make a judge mad.........deny the access to the parent!!!!!!!!

Thats the reason the IPG's only refer to the CP in the x-mas vacation because the cp is to have the 1st half of x-mas vacation in the even years......the ncp gets the 2nd half........well in odd years that flips the NCP gets the 1st  and the CP gets the 2nd half......

When doing this I think they took into account the fact that the NCP gets New Years in the even years......IE this is the NCP's year for New Years Holiday.......with it being split this way you don't get 8-9 days in a row....

Imom

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PS...
« Reply #13 on: Dec 24, 2005, 03:10:14 PM »

She really does NOT have to tell you she has to 1.) tell you.....2) provide you with the contact of a 3rd person that knows where she is......

5.  Emergency Notification.  For emergency notification purposes, whenever a child travels out of the area with either parent, one of the following shall be provided to the other parent: An itinerary of travel dates, destinations, and places where the child or the traveling parent can be reached, or the name and telephone number of an available third person who knows where the child or parent may be located.

************

If she has a cell phone and you know that number tec.......she IS covered......so no contempt on that part.

wysiwyg

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RE: Brain teaser?
« Reply #14 on: Dec 24, 2005, 07:29:15 PM »
Lucky,

You are right, but in dealing with BM objectively goes right out the window, BF has to protect himself somehow.  

For the last 2 years BM has insisted upon mediation in order to divide the break right down to the hour, but this time she is not, thus throws a monkey wrench our way.


BF contends that no matter what the guidelines say, all court orders say that if the parents do not agree to the specifics of them, they are to go to mediation, and this obviously is a disagreement on how they are to be applied.  So that is where I believe we have the problem and can use the contempt, not the hours or days, but the agreement that she insisted go to the attorney's when the order specifically states that the reason to use the mediator was that it was too costly than using the attorney's and that this case was heaviliy litigated.  Have email form BM just hours before the vacation began that she adn BM obviously were in disagremeent .............but BK is not the ones with 4 contempts now for parenting time violations.

lucky

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RE: Brain teaser?
« Reply #15 on: Dec 24, 2005, 09:44:24 PM »
Good luck.

Of course she would want mediation when it's in HER favor, funny how that works, isn't it?

So, on a good note, what's Santa bringing?

[em]Lucky

Lead your life so you wouldn't be ashamed to sell the family parrot to the town gossip.
- Will Rogers[em]
Lucky

Lead your life so you wouldn't be ashamed to sell the family parrot to the town gossip. ~  Will Rogers

wysiwyg

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RE: Brain teaser?
« Reply #16 on: Dec 25, 2005, 08:02:27 AM »
For me or the kids?  LOL

For me, Santa is brining all teh kids home for the holidays, errrrrr after the holidays.  Oldest Dau is in the army and could not get leave until tomorrow so she and grandson will be home tomorrow (again since BM did not alllow child to be here he will not get to see his older sister and nephew, they are real bro/sis too not steps).  Oldest son will be home sometime this week as well.  He is mil also but can not nail down a date unless he can get someone to cover his guard duty.  Hopefully with all this- we can get all kids together even for a few minutes to see each other and I can take pictures.

Kids got some Sims games, PS2, clothes youngest dau got girlie things.

Since we did xmas yesterday to give kids tme to play the games and PS2, SS is leaving in a few hours not to return so it will be quiet here today, probably watch a Christmas Story over adn over again!  LOL I love that moive!

Merry Ho Ho!

 

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