Volatile custody exchange today....

[dipper]

Today was custody reversal.  DH had sent bm letter two weeks ago saying we would pick son up at 8 p.m.

She calls oldest son's cell today and leaves a message (while we were working) saying that they had 'prior engagement' and would not be there...that I could come at 8 if I wanted to, but they wont be there.  

Fine, dh, my daughter, andwe get there at 9:05 and they come from home of married neighbor (whose wife has been in jail for about five months now).  He has a young son whom bm is spending lots of time with...this was the engagement, going to the child's ball game, arriving home at 8:15 and then having son explain to child why he would not be around for a few weeks.

BM follows son from neighbor's house into her parent's home (they live there), then out to my van.  son gets in on my side and bm goes around and begins yelling at dh.

She states she will be picking son up at camp and keep him the weekend.  DH simply, calmly stated, "no you're not."  

This escalates with her screaming, "Excuse me! Excuse me!  He is MY son...."     You will find yourself in court because I am filing contempt...

DH told her, once again, calmly - You cant file for something i havent done.

When she began screaming again, DH told her he did not have to listen to this.    He put the van in reverse and she is screaming, 'You *ucking idiot!"...as 14 year old son and 13 year old daughter are witnessing all of this.

She could have approached dh while son was in house - but always does this in front of him.  DH is tired of listening to the cursing and screaming every time....

Also, from what we understand, she is planning on taking son on vacation during time I said he needs to be home to prepare for his new school.  What can we do if this is true?  

We completely believe she is going to file contempt.  She violated the order tonight by standing there cursing me in front of son....

The court order is worded exactly as it has been for two years, only the roles have changed.  Now, she is demanding the court order gives her visitation it never gave dh  

This is so hypocritical considering she has taken dh's time from him, completely dictated every minute of visitation, and refused to ever go along with any schedule of visitaiton saying that , "I am not going to agree to YOUR schedule as circumstances may alter this..."

[MixedBag]

You're right she is being hypocritical.  Don't stoop to her level and thank your lucky stars that Dad has the opportunity to provide a better environment filled with love for his child.

Make your house a safe haven from fights.  Work hard on providing your child a sanctuary from everything he has seen over the years.  Time will heal these wounds.  Do your absolute best to never bad mouth the mom in front of the child, no matter how foul mouthed she can be or is.

That's the approach we both take for each of our boys and it works wonders.   I believe both boys really enjoy our relaxing environment for the time they are with us.....and neither one of our EXs understands this.

[BelleMere]

using police if need be. So, for example, she can't take him on vacation during time he is CO'd to be with you all unless you agree. Now, since you have been on the other end, as NCP, it's up to you if you want to be flexible with her. Flexibility is usually better for the child. And they don't usually need more than a day or so to prepare for school. If that. The first few days at school are slow anyway. Personally, I'd let her take him on vacation.

[dipper]

Thanks Mixed....that is our point as well.  We are to set the example and here she is mouthing off and cursing dh - it is so much worse when ss is there.

Like I have stated, on the phone she will call dh a jerk...but, in person - in front of ss, he is a "Mf"  "SOB" or..."F*** Idiot!"

right now, ss feels dh should tell her off.  He is very stern that the next time she says, "he is MY son."  that dh should say, "He is MY son too!"  

We tried to explain to ss that dh handled it the best..and I think in the end last night, ss was just as proud as I am at how dh handled things.

I do think the idea of recording her has reached an absolute MUST though....

[dipper]

This will be his first time at this school.  A few days before school begins, they have open house where we can pay his fees and he can meet teachers, etc......   HE wants to do this.  

If he wants extra time, dh will not block it.  But, it is beyond hypocritical for her to run around threatening contempt while demanding time that was never a part of it when dh was the NCP.  Why is she wanting ss that week in August - control!!  

I found a letter from 2004 saying, "he may not be with you until Saturday of these weekends....."   Yeah..and the court order says Friday!

She will get every minute of time the court order says -and then some if ss chooses.  But, nothing she does is ever for him....it is always for herself.  She never even spent one weekend with him until we got married and then all of a sudden, she wanted HER son with her....

We will not incite trouble, but no longer will we beg her for time to see ss.

Also, keep in mind that he has been in her care until June 15th, so we need to spend time with him this summer.....we have had less than six days a month - depending on if she would allow visitation or not..

[armywife]

I totally disagree with letting mom take him on vacation right before school starts.  The custody orders are written to have children back a week before school starts for a reason.  First of all, he needs that time to transition between households before the big push of school starts.  Also, the first days of school are very important.  Routines are set,  teachers set their standards, friends are made.  

Yes, being flexible is a good thing, but from the looks of your ex, if you gave her inch, she would take a mile.  When we went through our custody reversal the mantra was, "We're going by the court order, we're going by the court order."  There were so many requests, demands, and threats that we had to give that response repeatedly.  It was the only thing that worked.  

How can she file contempt charges when you are only following the court order?  If she kept him longer, she would be the one in contempt, right?

[lucky]

Is it possible, that once ss is no longer in her daily "care" that she'll "forget" how badly she wants him and won't (attempt to) exercise the pickup from camp and the time in August?

When does she next get to have ss?

[em]Lucky

Lead your life so you wouldn't be ashamed to sell the family parrot to the town gossip.
- Will Rogers[em]

[Wi-Mom]

How about bringing a video camera to each and every single exchange. My digital camera takes small videos.

As soon as she sees the camera...she'll curb her language! hehe.

[msme]

If you are in a one party state, you could use a mini tape recorder & a collar mic. When she begins her tirade, simply state, "Please do not use that language in the presence of the children." she will probably just yell louder. Then tell her that it is wrong to discuss these things in front of the children. she will probably go off even more. Then quietly state that it is in the children's best interests that you leave & then leave. she will probably still be screaming & you will have it all on tape.

Good luck & God bless

You never get a second chance to make a first impression!

[gipsy]

I've said it many time here , Get a Video camera , Then if it goes to court you have no problem showing the Judge whi is doing what , And in My case it seemed to put an end to the STORY TELLING about what goes on at the transfer , My two cents , Give her the extra visit etc , Don't do tit for tat ,
   Really , When I proposed to the Guardian ad Litem That I have custody because themomwas being a pian , The GAL said this usually just reverses the game , And its the same crap just Dad has custody , SOOOOOO Be aware that the court knows that this happens and its common knowledge,

  Personally I would figure I had won at the point you are at , And I would show that you aren't going to lower your self to Games , If she has a reason to do things and wants the kids then Let her have them , And if this infringement on prepareing for school can be worked through whileletting her have the child then so be it , Don't just do any of the tit for tat because she is a hippocrite ,
     I have done some tit for tat , But under the advice of my atty , I did not bend on the parenting plan Because she did npt bend for me m, SOOO  Yesthis is My opinion and Yes it is a decision that circmstance Must be weighed , And Believ me the kids get sickof this crap ! So DONT PLAY

[dipper]

The custody order has #1....three weekends per month (Fri-Sun)...........#6...two weeks each month of June, July, August.

Now, for two summers dh was the NCP (since her move) and the order was treated as if #6 REPLACED #1 during the summer.  He did not get two weeks per month...as she would make plans in June and so he would get one week...and then she always let us know that visitation was according to what she says...."schedule is fine as is now, but circumstances may alter...."....."I will not agree to YOUR schedule, as circumstances may arise that alter....."

Dating back to October 2004..."he may not be with you until Saturdays of these weekends...."


She has denied numerous visitation times.  Refused to make-up the time....never giving dh any input.  She has completely make up her own rules to visitation.

But, now.....while dh only had six weeks per summer....she is claiming that the exact same order entitles her to the three weekends plus two weeks......

Now, the order can actually be considered either way.....but, as she never gave dh the time before...then she either willingly violated the order or never read it until it applied to her.....

She is used to calling the shots and she is still attempting to do so..

[dipper]

We took ss to camp yesterday and were surprised she wasnt there then...but, we were early and left before the actual drop off time, so she may have came afterwards.

SS mentioned that a schedule had been in his camp letter...very interesting since she only gave us the papers as to what to BUY him for camp.  So, I asked his counselor and found out that Friday is family/friends day.  Anyone can go and spend the afternoon activities and meals with the child.  She hadnt wanted us to know this......I imagine picking him up then would have been so funny to her....as dh would have showed up Saturday.....  

She will see ss on July 4th for the day and then have her two weeks July 7......

She actually fussed at dh saying this meant she would be three weeks without seeing ss...but she is the one who signed him up for camp without asking dh anything.

[dipper]

And I failed twice!  My daughter has a mini one..so last year when bm was in our yard screaming, cursing, and slapping ss.....I got the camera and thought it automatically started recording when you opened it....It did NOT.

So, last week I took it and opened it as she approached the van and pushed video...but evidently I did it before it had completely turned on.  i didnt get a thing.  

I have typed up something telling her dh will be recording all exchanges with her....He needs to send that to her and actually follow through.  She is very verbally abusive and there is just no excuse for it...

[dipper]

We are not saying no to be vindictive...or to get back at her.  i was stating all of that just to show what a hypocrite she is to threaten court when she has NEVER followed the order unless it was to her benefit.

DH wants to pick ss up because ALL school year he has been in her care, we want to spend time with him.  It is dh's time, not hers.  He is not taking any of her time as she has done to him numerous times.  Remember in Feb when she took ss to camp and picked him up..she did that on DH's weekend -and never gave him make-up time.  

DH is giving her every minute of her time.  Just she wants it all on her terms as always.  DH even gave ss the option of who is to pick him up....and ss is adamant that he wants dh to.

SS is very stressed that she is going to show up and mouth off.  He kept telling dh yesterday to come early because "you know mom is and she is going to start something."  SS is hoping to be gone before she gets there....or atleast not to have to fight her taking him on his own....

SS made it clear last week that he is tired of her actions.  He wants me and dh to retaliate, but we explained that remaining calm and not fighting is best.

She is accusing dh of violating the order when he just picked him up, just got custody....and here she is refusing visitations, interfering with phone calls, cursind dh in front of ss......All violations.....

[MixedBag]

because in a lot of your posts you keep mentioning how bad it was for dad and keep pointing out (not saying it outright) that NOW the shoe is on the other foot.

I think you need to tone it down several notches all the way around.

You're probably very justified with alot of your complaints, BUT tone it down.

Don't be as bad as she was...

Show her how it should be done or should have been done all along.

A lot of what your saying is a given because custody was changed as a result of her behavior.

We're here to support what's best for the child -- and if mom goofed it up in the child's case so that primary custody was changed to dad that already says a lot.

[armywife]

Been there, done that.  

Bio mom is coming from a position of control and power that she always had but has now lost.  The time to to be flexible and giving will come later.  Right now she needs to realize that she no longer has the control she once had.  If you give in, the abuse will continue.  Tell her calmly that this is the way the court order has always been interpreted, so things will not change now.  Keep telling her that you will be going by the court order.

I do not see that you are playing games.   You are doing things exactly as you should, and you are feeling as though you need to justify your actions.  You don't.  That's why you have a court order.  Son obviously is tired of what has been going on.  That's all the justification you need.

I'll say it again.  Son needs to have time to adjust and get ready for school.   Don't take that time away from him just because she wants to be in control.  It's not about her.

You have every right to feel the way you do.  Everyone needs to vent.  Remember, "We're going by the court order!"

[dipper]

yes, in my posts I do say how bad dh has had it.  But, in no way am I saying we will return the favor.  She violated the order.....it is not a violation to refuse to allow her to keep up her game of saying when and where everything is to be.  I may have worded it wrong, but that was my intent - to state that while she did all these violations and is now on the very first day of reversal screaming about contempt when nothing has been done wrong.....

We should not have to keep enduring her constant control now.....dh  is not like her and would never stoop to that level....he really does want ss to have a peaceful life.

[dipper]

Thank you - that is exactly what I have been intending to express.  I guess when I have vented - or just pointed how obviously controlling she is - violationg the order and then within two minutes of us having ss she is threatening contempt.....I sounded like we were trying to be vindictive.

We are following the order to the dotted i's.....and dh would let ss spend more time with bm if he wants...he has told ss that.  Even asked him if he wanted bm to pick him up from camp....

however, dh is getting scared of going back to court and is trying to think of some way around it....like giving her what she wants even if its against what ss wants or what we know is right.....

She does not have bills right now as she lives with parents and so it is not hard for her to come up with lawyer money.....

[msme]

I would like to suggest that he sit down & prepare a good response for her attorney, stating the facts of how the order has always been interpreted. Include the fact that he has many years of evidence of her tactics of failing to follow it. Make it clear that he has every intention of following the order to the letter of the law. He will be liberal when certain situations warrant it & expects the same behavior from her.

Should she persue any frivolous charges or suites, he will be left with no choice but to counter sue on every previous act of contempt, for which he has a significant amount of evidence, including but not limited to.....(list a few big ones). He will also petition the court for her to pay all legal fees & court costs.

Have your attorney look it over & make any changes he/she recommends. Then ask him/her to hold it until needed. If she files contempt, have him/her send it to her attorney. Your attorney shouldn't charge much, if anything for that, if you have a strong history with the firm.

Good luck & God bless
You never get a second chance to make a first impression!

[dipper]

That sounds like a good idea.  I am hoping that once a little time passes, that she will settle down and go with the flow.  

[skye]

I understand exactly how you feel and I will be the first to say it DOES NOT get better...bad thing is the courts will grant mom more visitation than dad got when he was NCP...I have seen this many times over...I will share a tool that has helped me a great deal..and it is FREE!!!!

//www.coparentcalendar.com

shoot her an email and (use her email to invite her) tell her
" we will not be discussing anything at DO or PU any longer as it results in you screaming at us in front of the children. I am requesting we use this to communicate for a while. I will be carrying a tape recorder to all DO and PU so that I can protect the children from this happening in front of them...have a blessed day"

[MixedBag]

I guess I'm just not expressing myself right, sorry.

[dipper]

With more of the same.  She calls him during his lunch break on their son's cell phone.  Dh and oss work together.  Well, she starts cursing dh and telling him how it is going to be again.

DH told her that is not the way it has been - that he never got all that time, and she refused visitation alot, she says, "That is in the past."  This is now, and she is getting every minute that she is entitled to.  And she is picking ss up this weekend.  So, trying to be flexible, dh told her that she could see ss if she brought him back the next day in time for his stepsisters birthday party...

Bm said no, the order says 7 and that's when it will be.  Dh said - havent I always allowed ss to attend things with your family?  She told him yes, but that is the past and she is not doing it.

See what we deal with!  It is crazy.......she told him that he will be hearing from her lawyer.....

I hate this woman...she cant give anything a dang chance.  and her son doesnt want to see her because he is tired of her causing scenes!

[MixedBag]

Even though it's flip flopped, when does the weekend start and end.

And that's when she gets SS.

Follow the order

[dipper]

Mixed...this is the problem.  The order is EXACTLY as it always has been, only roles have changed.  

For two years, dh got six weeks during the summer -chopped up, no third weekends, and she always had, 'circumstances may alter this time..." attached.  If we tried to propose a schedule, she changed it.  

Now, the exact same order is worded...

#1...Three weekends per month.  Then addresses time and transportation.

Goes on to discuss breaks, holidays, etc...

#6...Six weeks total in summer during months of June, July, and August with two weeks within.

Okay.....so, this could be argued either way.  The EXACT SAME ORDER has been treated for two years as if weekends were replaced during June, July, and August visitation WEEKS.   Now, while BM admits to that....she is saying she doesnt care, that its the past and thats where it belongs - in the past.

Not only is she demanding third weekends, she is demanding that she get an extra day for ss being in burn camp on a Friday - when she was the one who put him in there!

she wrote dh a letter telling him all of this...that the new order gives her these rights.  she also blames him for fighting, being hard to get along with and being the reason ss has problems.  She says he is making it hard on yss and oss......yet, she is the one cursing in front of yss and calling oss cell phone to fuss at dh.

Spoke with dh's lawyer who advised to file a show cause and ask for a clarification at that time.

We are willing to follow the judge's instructions........however, he will not be the judge who wrote the original order which is still in place as far as visitation rights.

Also, its just the power play....she completely controlled for years..and now she is still doing it.  She wrote dh a letter after talking with him the other day...and stated when SHE WILL have ss.....and then said that she will agree to set visitation this year, but next year, she will pick her own weeks because dh will not control her or tell her when she can or cannot see ss.

Welcome to the world we lived in for two years.....and we are trying to obey the court order, but magically the exact same wording changed in meaning when she became NCP.

[MixedBag]

and we all have one, you know?

"#1...Three weekends per month. Then addresses time and transportation."

That's when weekends start and end, period.  It doesn't matter what she has done in the past to put stipulations on DAD to return the child early or nothing.  See if I picked up somewhere in these threads, Dad wants the child to return to spend a certain event at Dad's place when the translation is that the child would have to return early.  His defense or logic is "Mom demanded it all the time when SHE was the CP."  Well, it's behavior like that that helped Dad flip the order.


"#6...Six weeks total in summer during months of June, July, and August with two weeks within."

I'm not sure I understand the words "with two weeks within"....I'm assuming it means she gets the child for 3 two week periods each month.  

Actually, Dip, As I see it, you guys "could" end up with NO WEEKENDS each summer.  

If Mom gets 3 out of 4 -- then that 4th weekend could be "used" over the two week period.

Or does it mean that 2 out of 3 weekends will be included in her two weeks?

Actually, now that I'm typing this out -- the word "within" makes me change my mind to say that  her two week weekends are within the 3 weekends a month.

As for the rest of it, you gotta learn to ignore her behavior totally.

I'll admit -- I too will write and have written to my EX and said "I will have our son" at this time or that time and he gets offended by it.  Quite frankly, I don't care if he gets offended.

Think about it -- the NCP DOES have rights as given to her in the order.  I know you know that, so get over her use of the word WILL.  Don't let her spin you up because she used that word.

I never meant anything by it (but your BM probably does), and just wanted to let EX know when I was going to have time with our son.  (In my case, I pay/paid for transportation, made reservations 6 months in advance and thought I was being NICE by letting him know.....we too argued over who gets to decide the WHEN, and judge said since I pay transportation, I decide WHEN.)

Actually -- let me take this one step further and ask you to look at the order this way.....  The order outlines the child's right to spend time with their mother and their father.  If you can focus on the child, when you read the order think of it as outlining the child's rights, not either parent, but the child.

[MixedBag]

sorry about that.

[4honor]

Don't worry about how BM interpretted it. Interpret it like any SANE person would.

I read the order to mean two weeks each month in summer with the weekends before and after the two weeks and the one in the middle -- that is 2 full weeks and one weeked attached. Since you state the order says the "weeks within."

A weekend is whatever it is defined in the order, and you don't get the option of changing it. Flexibility is only available if it is written into the order.

BM was nutz in how she ran the visitation. DON'T FOLLOW HER LEAD!!!

Read it like the sane sensible people you are. Read it like you used to when you were NCP's... like it should have been read all along.

Ignore BM's posturing. She is acting catty -- all attitude and hairball in the throat. Right now you have the power to stroke that kitty and make her appreciative, or run things backwards and keep getting scratched. (Ever pet a cat from tail to head? I recommend skipping the experience.)

Let go of woulda shoulda coulda. It will only give you ulcers. BM is hypocritcal. That is just the way it is. You cannot change her. Trying will just stir you up. So, for the sake of you and SS and your DH and the rest of the family, you are going to take a nice deep breath and blow away all the crap she has heeped on you over the years. You Do Not have to accept it. And you do not have to return it.

[dipper]

for two summers both bm and dh interpreted the court order to mean he got six weeks visitation....period.

Now, she demands she gets three weekends - giving her a third weekend along with the two weeks.

She could be right...but, that means she knew this all along and didnt do it.

so, in other words, she got us then and she will get us now.

quite frankly, all this amounts to is nothing has changed.  She controlled then and she controls now.  SS is not going to improve because he is still dealing with this crap, only in a different household.  He is still subject to her control and manipulation.