Please Help Us!

[TNBabe]

Okay, I need some help. Here is a breakdown of our case.

Father got custody of children in July of 2002. Based on BM leaving children home alone for long periods of time. Sometimes leaving them all night long. Children were 10 and 12 at the time.

BM had been PAS'ing children for years. Examples:
She told oldest boy that she loved him more than his father, because his father wanted him aborted.
She told both children that father was abusive and violent.
She told both children that father was bi-polar.
She told them that father tried to strangle her.
I could go on and on, but I'm sure you get the picture.

None of these accusations are true, and she has nothing to back them up. No domestic calls or anything.

Now, on to today.

BM filed a petition for contempt against us in September of this year. She is stating that we are not letting her have her visitation. Numerous other accusations as well, but this is the most important. She wants joint custody of the boys.

We have had the children in counseling since Octobor of 2002. The counselor has give her deposition about this case.

Both boys have very serious issues with BM because of the years of PAS and mental abuse. We have been trying to help the kids work through this.

My oldest ss has been admitted into an intense outpatient psychiatric program because of his threats to kill his mother or himself.

We filed an emergeny petition for a TRO, which was signed by the judge on Friday, the 12th.

We had the hearing today, the judge would not look at any documentation from the hospital. She would not speak with the children.

BM got visitation back. We had to take my oldest ss straight to the hospital, he tried to go in the courtroom after the judge.

Basically here is what happened, we did something we shouldn't have done, and I will be the first to admit it. The children had read some of the pleadings. We realize this was wrong, but have always tried to be honest with the kids, this is their lives. We should not have done that. BM has not let them read any pleadings, but has discussed them with them, in her version of course.

We have always encouraged these kids to visit with their mother, and have told them they can see her or call her whenever they wish. They choose not to, although they have been going to visitation.

We love these boys dearly, and have never EVER tried to poison them against their mother. We have tried to help them work through their feelings about her.

What I need to know is what can we do to prove to the courts that the PAS was BM's doing, and that is why this children feel the way they do about her? We have documentation of course. We even have a notebook that belongs to my oldest ss, that she wrote in, talking badly about his father.

They are trying to accuse us of PAS. We have had the children a little over a year. They have done wonderfully here. Their school work and attendence is excellent. Both are in the gifted program at school.

We will probably have trial in a couple of months, and need to be prepared as possible. We do not want to take BM's visitation or parental rights from her. First and foremost, we want to do what is best for the kids.

BM is in such denial. She has been caught in lie after lie, and still keeps on lying. How can we prove that we are trying to HELP her relationship with the kids, which we have tried to do, many, many times.

I know that most people on here are for co-parenting, I am as well. You can not co-parent with someone who is in denial about everything that has happened, and can not agree with anything.

I hope this makes sense to everyone, and I hope someone can help us.

Any advice, recomendations, anything, will be greatly appreciated.

Oh, the children are 14 and 11. Youngest will be 12 in February.

Thanks!
Erin

[Brent]

>I know that most people on here are for co-parenting, I am as
>well. You can not co-parent with someone who is in denial
>about everything that has happened, and can not agree with
>anything.

We strongly support co-parenting when it works, when it's feasible, and when it's practical. When it's not, it's not, and most people here won't push you to attempt co-parenting when it's an unrealistic goal (as it would seem to be in this instance).



>I hope this makes sense to everyone, and I hope someone can
>help us.
>
>Any advice, recomendations, anything, will be greatly
>appreciated.

There are a few standard things you'll hear frequently in these forums, especially in regards to conflicted custody situations. One is, "Document, document, document!". If you haven't started documenting all this stuff, start immediately.  

Having good records is *crucial*. Get yourself either the Parenting Time Tracker (PTT) at: http://www.deltabravo.net/custody/tracker.htm or the OPTIMAL Custody Tracking service at: http://www.parentingtime.net. The PTT is free but limited in some crucial areas. The OPTIMAL service is better in a number of ways, especially if court is a possibility in the future (which sounds likely given what you've described).

You may want to look into the having a parenting or custody evaluation. done- if you can show the evaluator what they need to see, their report will be enough to convince a judge what to do. There are lots of articles about custody evaluations on the site; I recommend you do a search and start reading everything you can. To start, double-click on any of the words below (they aren't actual links, but they will bring up a search window):

evaluation

documentation

alienation

These should get you started. Come back with any questions you may have and we'll do our best to answer them.

[TNBabe]

I agree, co-parenting is the best for the children, when it is feasible. This case, it is not.

I have been documenting for a few years now. I just want to make sure I am documenting the right things. I do not have the tracker, but will look into getting it.

I would love to get an evaluator involved, and will see what we can do about getting one. I would also love to get a psychiatrist involved. To test the parents somehow. Is there a way to do that? She is claiming in open court that my husband is bi-polar, and this is NOT true. I don't know if the judge believed it or not, but that's not the point.

How do we prove that her documentation, if she has any, is untrue?

I will start looking through the resources you have given me, thank you so much.

I'm afraid that the lawyer we hired may not be the best, so we are going to have to do some of the work for her. We can not let BM win this case, for the safety and mental well being of these two boys, it just can not happen.

Thank you so much,
Erin

[Brent]

>I have been documenting for a few years now. I just want to
>make sure I am documenting the right things. I do not have the
>tracker, but will look into getting it.

Documentation is the "king" in court. Methodically keeping objective records is an absolute requirement, and being able to show the judge a graph is priceless. They don't want to wade through hundreds of pages of stuff, they want it boiled down into bite-sized chunks that sum up what the situation is. DON'T hand them a stack of papers and expect them to dig through it to find the truth. Don't make them work any more than you have to, becuase the easier you make it for them, the more they'll like it.

>
>I would love to get an evaluator involved, and will see what
>we can do about getting one. I would also love to get a
>psychiatrist involved. To test the parents somehow. Is there a
>way to do that?

You can ask that one be done, or have your attorney request one be done.



>How do we prove that her documentation, if she has any, is
>untrue?

By countering it with your own objective records and documentation.

[nosonew]

WE ARE IN THE SAME TYPE OF SITUATION!
Years of PAS, child gets old enough, (pas didn't work too well thank goodness, but child is aware of all the lies bm told him) therefore, he is now living with dad, and does not want to see mom "except occassionally".  

WE HAVE A CASE MANAGER (I usually refer to her as mediator, but in all actuality, it is case management) which gives her the authority to listen to everything and make recommendations to the court when the parents can't agree.  '

CASE MGR realizes that ss doesn't wish to see mom for "reasons", we haven't discussed PAS (we've been told too many times we are not psychologists and can't diagnose), but case mgr agreed with ss, and made the orders so he can change his visitation to meet his school, sports and social schedule.  

Our ss is also 14, and it would be very difficult to MAKE him go.  What do you do?  Tie him up and force him into the car?  As my husband says, she made her bed, let her lie in it.  He says that to bm, the case mgr, etc.  

Your 14 year old has intense psychological issues, get a letter from his doctor stating it would be detrimental to FORCE him to see bm, and he can't be responsible for any harm ss causes bm if forced to go.  Perhaps the courts will look at these issues differently.  In the meanwhile, I would get that letter asap, send it to judge and keep the child away from bm as long as possible (and per doctors recommendations).  

This child is feeling hurt and betrayed by bm for what she has done to him in the past.  I don't blame him for not wanting to see her.  Good luck!

[TNBabe]

I didn't think I was alone in this. I am so thankful that my ss's did not believe what BM told them. Things would probably be very different today if they did.

We don't have a case manager, or anything like that. All we have is attorney's, and I'm afraid her attorney is better then ours. That is why we want to do as much of the work as we can. So we can lay it in out for our attorney.

My ss does have intense psychological issues, we are doing everything in our power to help him. We got a letter from the hospital he is attending now, the judge would not even read it. We have a two hour deposition of his counselor, who is a LPC as well. That has not been presented to the court yet.

BM's attorney is trying to say that because WE have spoken with his counselor, we have made her believe us. Yes, we have spoken to her, and have given BM the opportunity to do the same thing, she chooses not to.

She did contact her last week, when she found out that we were trying to have oldest SS put in a hospital. She left her a message telling her that my oldest ss has fibromyalgia(sp?), which BM has, and that is the reason he has problems, and to get him tested. This child does NOT have anything of the sort. BM is a hyprocondriact, and has always made the kids out to be sick and allergic to everthing.

At this point, we HAVE to force them to go. The judge said if the kids do NOT go with their mother, my husband will be put in jail. No if's, and's or but's about it.

So we have no choice. If something happens while they are with her, the courts are going to be held responsible.

Our priority now is the trial. We have to do everything we can possibly do to prove our case. To prove that these kids have emotional problems because of BM, not us. We have to prove her instability, her poor decision making, which is WHY she lost custody last year.

We need all the help we can get!

Erin

[nosonew]

Your best bet is to have a GAL or case manager put on the case ASAP!  Your attorney could petition the court prior to your trial date (which is next spring, right?) and that person would be able to help in the interim. I know you and I are not alone.  But most cases on this board the PAS DID work, we are lucky in our cases and I believe that was only because we took bm to court again and again for contempt (not letting dad see child).  For those who live farther away from their child, this is difficult.

We also showed info found on this site regarding children do better with their dad with schoolwork, etc., and since ss was having problems in school, his weekday visitation was increased to every Tues and Thur evening plus his eow schedule.  That helped cut the pas too.  And we never talked bad about his mom, but after age 9, if he stated something that wasn't true, we set him straight, without putting down bm, but kids are smart, they figure out who is telling the truth and who isn't.  

I feel so sorry for your boys that you have to force them, esp the 14 year old.  I am SOOOO thankful our ss has an order that states he "can work things out with bm if he has other activities" -not exact wording, but you get the picture.  

I wish you the best of luck in keeping your boys in a positive mental state!!!

[TNBabe]

I am going to call my attorney tomorrow and ask her about it. I am a little leary of GAL's, I had a not so good experience with one and my oldest bio-son. I can not judge all GAL's based on that though.

I do have some good news. I just got off the phone with BM's ex boyfriend. He was in the picture for about 3 years. He loves these kids. He is going to testify for us. He has heard BM talking about my hubby many, many times, with the kids right there. He is pretty much our only proof that they can not say is "hear-say". I'm so thankful he is willing to help us. He really hates getting involved in these kinds of things.

We are also going to bring the kids school records into account as well. We have yet to see the records from when they lived with her, but I know for a fact that the youngest boy is doing MUCH better. He is in the gifted program at school, and get's all A's and B's. My oldest ss has always done well in school, that's his escape, pooring himself into his school work. I do think there were some behavior issues though. I also know that their attendence here is MUCH better than with BM. Every time we turned around they were sick, and missing school.

Medical records will be brought up as well. When she had custody of them, they were at the doctor all the time. Since we got them in July of 2002, they have each been to the doctor 2 times. One of those times was for a check up.

We've never talked "bad" about BM to the kids. We have always been honest with them though. If they would tell us something she told them that was not true, we would tell them the truth. Without badmouthing BM. I think that is the ONLY reason the PAS did not work.

We want the same thing you got. We want the boys to have a choice. We don't want to take her parental rights, or her visitation. We just want the children to have a voice in the matter. They are getting older, and have things they would like to attend. School functions, Boy Scout things, ect. ect.

We also have 3 Boy Scout leaders who are willing to testify as well.

We will continue to do everything in our power to help these boys. They are our TOP priority. If BM get's some help in the meantime, then great. If not, which I think is likely, then that's her problem. The kids should not have to suffer because she is in such denial.

Thanks again for the advice, the support, just listening. It helps knowing we are not alone.

Erin

[nosonew]

I wonder if PAS and medical go together. During our most extreme PAS over a 3 year period, ss saw over 22 doctors and averaged 4-5 visits per month with md's and 1-2 trips to ER EVERY MONTH.  For things like runny nose to mosquito bites!  I wonder if it's for attention (to bm) or if there is a little bit of the Munhausen Syndrome going on with women like this.  Could be part of the personality trait.  Hmmm, just a thought.

p.s.  Our ss has been ill one time in the last 10 years while in our care.  When we showed courts/counselors his medical records, they all said "She's just overprotective!"  I did have one of the md's tell me he thought she was psychotic but refused to agree to go to court with his observation and opinion, stating he didn't want to get involved.

[TNBabe]

Ya know, I'm not sure, but it's sure worth checking into. BM is a severe hyprocondriact. We went to pick up the kids before we got custody. BM was not home. We took pictures while there, one of them was her duffle bag laying on the couch, FULL of medication. We asked the boys about it, they told us it was mom's medicine.

I honestly do think that this is a case of munchahausen syndrome, just not one of the severe cases. My skids didn't go to alot of doctors, but went to their pediatrician all the time. There were ALOT of times that BM would call the pediatrician, and tell them that this was wrong or that was wrong, and the doctor would just call in prescriptions, without seeing the kids. This is wrong in our eyes.

I think alot of it is for BM to get attention. That's my opinion. I don't believe it's a case of being overprotective, although the courts may see it that way. I don't know, but we will use anything and everything we can get our hands on to show the courts that she has made alot of bad decisions with these kids. Continues to do so as well.

[TNBabe]

We have alot of documentation. How do I make a graph? I have looked into the optimal program, I just can not afford that. I will try the one here from sparc, and see if that will work.

It's going to be a long hard battle, but we have to fight. We do have BM's ex boyfriend who is going to testify for us. I believe he is our BEST witness right now. He was with her for 3 years, and heard many comments made in front of the children about thier dad. He seen the way she treated them as well.

Thank you again for your help, it's needed and welcomed. Very much appreciated too!

Erin