what do you think?

[LIBBYSMOM2]

Me and my husband are retaining an attorney to take his ex back to court to have the child custody reversed.

It has been 8 years since their divorce. The daughter is 10 years old and wants to live with us she had asked her mom at the end of her stay with us this summer was told no.

Their divorce was in Illinois, we have lived here in Minnesota for 3 years, moved here for job and better lifestyle.

We have always stayed in close contact with our daughter, he flies down to see her on his days off, she comes here for summer we travel there for holidays.

In the past eight years here are some of the changes that has gone on:

-She (ex) has moved about 4 times, has been married twice since her divorce to my husband (and daughter says she and current husband are talking of divorce now and fight a lot)

-She has done all in her power to cut contact with us (she has now taken away her home phone and refuses to allow her daughter to use her cell phone saying her boss bought it for her job-she is a stripper).

-She is never home at night she leaves "L" with her friends, "L's" friends, at home w/ 15 year old brother who doesnt even live there, her mom ("L's) grandma, never a set place.

-She sleeps during the days even on weeknds and has "L" fix her own meals, has her clean house, yard, ect.

-She spends no quality time with her instead takes her "shopping" to spend time together getting their nails done together, ect.

-Has absurd vulgar tattoo's of naked ladies w/ her "clubs" logo on it w/ a dancer naked.

-Has taken "L" to work with her during and closed buisiness hours, takes her shopping for her costumes to work in, "L" is well aware of what her mother does (she has tried to mock her actions here in the summer @ 6yrs old rolled her shorts up till her hieney was hanging out told her not nice for a lil girl to do that she says "my mom lets me do it like hers")

-Has recently been catching onto to her mom's way of lying to people and notices it now more.

-We go to church and "L" loves it as where her mom is athiest and pokes fun about the bible we bought "L" for her b-day.

-Has lost custody of other two children 7-8 years ago, grandparents has one boy and the other boy lives with his dad.

-Has told "L" if she does go live with her father she cant take nothing not even her dog, to hold things over her head, and says things like "what would make you want to live with him, your just being dumb"

-This summer was the first summer "L" and her lil sister actually connected (young one is 4 now able to play with and such), well they really bonded, and the day we took "L" back to her mom the girls were falling apart in each others arms was so sad, her mom came over and stuck her head in the door and says "come on "L" why do you do this to yourself, get over it and get out, we gotta get going",  should no sympathy at all to the situation.

I know there is no physical abuse but this plus her being in contempt of court on several issues anyone who has been through a custody reversal how do you see this playing out in court?

Just to say the lawyer we have is very good Family Law only, have had his representation in past and won, also knows her back ground has dealt with her before with her one son getting him taken away, so we fell pretty confident in our attorney but does anyone know how the courts are now days in reversal of custody, and fathers getting it in ILLINOIS?

                                     Thank You-
                                Excited & Scared in Minnesota

[Kitty C.]

I understand you 'list' of grievances against the ex, but I would strongly recoomend that you revise it to emphasize how each point affects your SD.  Asking for a modification of custody is soley based upon a 'significant change of circumstance' of the child, so anything the parent in question does is of no concern of the court.....UNLESS it adversely affects the child.

In the first point you mention that the ex is on her 2nd marriage since your DH.  Emphasize how the current atmosphere (arguing between ex and current hubby) is affecting your SD.  On the second point, leaving SD with an unknown 15 y.o. boy is of great concern.  The underlying issue here is the ex making poor decisions regarding who supervises the child.  You see what I'm getting at?  If you go to court with your list as you originally posted, the court will think you just have a vendetta against the ex.  But if you bring to court all that is affecting the child and how (hope you can also provide proof), the court will realize that you only have your SD's best interests at heart.

And it sounds like you have a great atty.  I don't have first hand knowledge of the current atmosphere in the Illinois family court system.........there may be others here who might give you a better idea.  But even that isn't a true indicator, because it's still up to the judge in your case.  But please let us know how things turn out!

[ocean]

I agree...this is not enough to reverse custody unless you have proof of all of this. 10 years old is not old enough to decide where to live. Another 2-3 years  maybe... Unless CPS in involved, it is very hard to prove unfit. I am sure your lawyer is very good and will try to make a stong case but it is going to be a LONG expensive battle...you could ask for a law guardian to be appointed for SD so that way someone talks to her about what she wants. Also, counseling, if the therapist feels there is abuse she must call cps. If she is with her mother, will she still tell a LG that she wants to live with you? You could ask for more time with her and teach her strategies to cope.

How did she lose custody of the other two? Was Cps involved there?

[LIBBYSMOM2]

her oldesy was left with his dad, dont know why or much about that deal was before "FS" & and her got married, the youngest though, the boys (fathers) grandparents got custody of him shortly after she and "FS" was married she told him they tricked her into signing papers but later found out by our attorney just in general conversation he was who represented the grandparents who got custody.

He would know but sure he cant disclose that info with us but does know her background and knows our deals with her so that is a plus.

Also I know my sd will move and wants to and willing to tell a judge, she has several times since her first time asking her asked to move here since she has been back home with her mom.

We are more of a stable family for her, we both work days I @ the local school and "FS" at a major local company. We have our kids enrolled in school activities as to where her mom is "to busy" for my sd to join anything.

They have never been to any of her school plays...neither has my sd she practices with kids at school but has yet to act in one noone to take her, to busy.

We could care less what her mom does but to take my sd to work with her and place her in that atmosphere is just sick. Wouldnt even be so bad if she worked there straight days and interacted more with sd be there for her emotionally, physically  not just materially.

She e-mails me all the time saying she wished she was with us cause we spend time with her do things as a family. 10 yrs old and her mom has never baked cookies with her? Come on this woman is so self absorbed she dont deserve to a child. I get so irritated and yet so sad that I give her what she needs and want to do it my life is my kids and husband, thats what a family is CLOSE.

[Ref]

 
There is a"change in circumstances" criteria. Was she a stripper when custody and visitation was initially set? Look at all the issues you list and ask yourself 1. was it the same when custody was set last? 2. Do you have any proof, meaning hard evidence, of this issue?

In my experience, reversing custody isn't a homerun unless it meets the same standards that intact married couples would lose their custody.  Obviously, this is not always the case, but I think it is a good guideline to follow. If BM and BF were married and BM was a stripper, would the state have the right to take the child away? IF BM had vulger tatoos but were still married to BF, would they consider it a threat to the saftey or wellbeing of the child to the extent of takin ghte child away?

I am not saying it is impossible. I agree with the other posters and think you need to narrow to compaints down to those that 1. are a change from before 2. you have solid proof 3. shows a danger to the childs well-being.

BTW, I am an athiest and I don't think that makes me a bad person and definately don't think it should cause me not to be able to have custody of a child.

[gemini3]

While I understand your frustration with the situation, I agree with the other posters that unless you are able to show a drastic change in circumstances to the detriment of the child, and that the other parent is unfit, you're in for a hard road.

You mentioned several contempt charges - were these charges that were brought before the court?  In some states witholding visitation is grounds for a custody change - have you had a history of that?  Also, how is your SD doing in school?

It sounds like you have issues with her mom's lifestyle and beliefs but, unless you can prove that it's having a detrimental effect on the child, it's unlikely you'll get a custody reversal.

A better strategy might be to consider requesting some changes to the current visitation agreement that would "pave the road", so to speak, for a reversal in the future should she choose not to comply.  For example, if you live close to each other, you could request first right of refusal - which would mean that she has to offer for your husband to care for SD in her absence before she found other means of child care.  You could also request that child care be given by a licensed child care provider or certified nanny.

[LIBBYSMOM2]

SEE THE THING IS WE DONT CARE WHAT SHE DOES FOR A LIVING OR WITH HER LIFE BUT HER CHOICES ARE HURTING MY SD, SHE IS NOT THERE FOR HER EMOTIONALLY, PHYSICALLY, SHE DONT SPEND QUALITY TIME WITH MY SD, AND IT IS HURTING MY SD, SHE HAS NO FAMILY LIFE IS BEING RAISED BY SITTERS OR OTHER FAMILY MEMBERS.

WE ARE NOT OUT TO "GET" EX OR CRITIZE HER AS PERSON, FOR WHAT SHE DOES OR BELIEVES OR DONT BELIEVE, THE THING IS SHE HAS 2 OTHER BOYS SHE NEVER RAISED, SHE HAS A DAUGHTER SHE IS IN A SENSE NOT RAISING WHO NEEDS A PARENTAL GUIDANCE.

WELL ALL WE CAN DO IS TRY MY SD ASKED US TO TRY TO GET CUSTODY OF HER SO THATS ALL WE CAN DO.

WAS ASKING FOR ADVICE ON WHAT WE CAN DO TO HELP OUR SITUATION.

NO WE CANT REQUEST WE WATCH HER WE LIVE 700+ MILES AWAY BUT WOULD HAVE BEEN GOOD IDEA IF WE LIVED CLOSER-THANKS!

[Giggles]

I'm sorry our "advice" wasn't what you wanted to here.  Most of us around here have been here for MANY years and pretty much have seen it all.

What you need to remember is that the courts don't give a rats ass about "emotions"...you FEEL you could do a better job with the SD, you FEEL like she isn't getting what she needs....FEELINGS don't cut it in the court room.

A judge is only interested in the "best interest of the child" and to overturn a custody...especially a long distance one...YOU have to have verifiable PROOF that this lifestyle is have negative effects on SD....not because you FEEL you could do better!  And at SD age...they MAY take her wishes into consideration...but it's a long shot!  Perhaps if she were more around 12-13 it would have more weight.

What I see happening in your case is that it will go before a judge, the judge will tell BM..."that isn't a place for a child...do better (slap on the wrist) custody denied to the plaintiff now pay all of the defendants legal fees as well....AND while were at it, lets revisit CS...hummm seems you can pay MORE....(wham...pay more CS as well)." 

Many of us have seen this happen time and time again....take heed if you will.....

[gemini3]

I agree with Giggles.  I know that the things we're saying aren't what you want to hear, and that it's frustrating - but better to hear it from us than to spend thousands to hear it from the judge.

Your husband could still ask for a parenting plan regarding child care, but he is also going to get the costs of certified child care added to his CS.  Fair?  Nope, but the way it is.  You have to find a way to work within the system because we can't fight it one person at a time in the courtroom.  Fighting it has to be done through legislation.

Good luck.

[LIBBYSMOM2]

I would like to say I do appreciate everyones opinion and insight advice, I tried to copy and paste 2 of my sd e-mails to this but would not allow me to do it(?).

I do see what you mean and trust me I have rethought our approach on some of the issues we have and how to go about using them "in the best interest" of my sd. We know we have a long hard (expensive) road ahead of us, we do worry about that verses waiting 3 years till sd can say where she wants to live.

But our worries are what will go on in the next 3 years she is more likely to become what her atmosphere is verses what we try to instill in her the short times we have her. She hates living where she does has begged us to go forward with the attorney, and affraid if we dont at least try, she may give up as well, feel like she is stuck.

The girl is bright and smart and knows things for her age but dont mean she will make right choices for herself in that home enviroment she is only 10 and has daily influence.  Does that make sense? (like the incident @ 5-6 yrs old rolling her shorts up so her butt hangs out cause "mom" does and lets me cause it looks cute.

She wants and needs a stable family relationship with parents who are home provide for her on the mental and emotional level who will be home with her, who will be there for school programs, who will see to it she participates in school functions extra curicular activities, dance, sports ect.

The biggests is STABILITY she would have with us verses there.

Ther has never been CPS/or DCFS involved but will if have to next time ex leaves her at nights from say 7-8pm till 4-5 am with her 15 yr old step brother (that does not live ther) and his freinds with no home phone, will call them in next time we get a call from SD saying she home w/ him and they are scaring her with a wigi board or whatever the case may be at the time. (sd has own prepaid phone we provide her because thats the only way we can talk to her).

Ok thoughts on that idea? Thank you- Honestly, just fustrated and heartbroken for my sd.

[gemini3]

I don't think that CPS will get involved in that.  In Minnesota there are no guidelines on how old a child must be to be left home alone.  It is acceptable for a 15 year old to babysit a younger child for up to 24 hours.

See below from http://www2.nccic.org/poptopics/homealone.html.


FAQ - At what age may a child be left home alone and for how long? (2000), by the Dakota County Attorney's Office, states
[BLOCKQUOTE]
C. Dakota County accepts the following guidelines for older children providing supervision to younger children:
[/BLOCKQUOTE][list=1][list=1]

• It is acceptable for children ages 11 to 14 to baby-sit, with theexpectation that the parent, guardian, or caretaker will be returningto supervise the children later that same day.
  
• It is acceptable for ages 15 and older to baby-sit younger childrenfor more than 24 hours. (Please refer to VIII.A. Decision to AssessReports of Unsupervised Children.)

[/list]
This resource is available on the Web at http://www.co.dakota.mn.us/attorney/FAQ/Faq19.htm (http://www.co.dakota.mn.us/attorney/FAQ/Faq19.htm).

I'm not saying that you're not correct in wanting a good environment for your SD - I'm just saying how the courts are going to look at it.  In the eyes of the law, her mom hasn't done anything wrong by leaving her with a 15 year old.

[LIBBYSMOM2]

What is everyones opinion on the mother disconnesting her home phone when it states in divorce decree that which ever parent has SD that "they" (being the operative word) must provide communication to the other parent?

When SD asked (mom) to live here at end of summer this year when we took her home by the time we returned home and called her the next day her home phone was disconnected we had to provide SD with a cell phone in order to talk to her.

Mom said she wasnt going to pay for a phone SHE didnt use. Then told us she would have to talk to her husband about putting SD on thier cell phone plan being the plan was in his name, then reported to us he said no.

But then like 2 months later whne topic was brought up agian later she said her phone was bought by her boss and was a "work phone" an cannot allow SD to use it as she pleases.

One time we was talking to SD on her prepaid phone WE bought and ran out of air time, so we called her mom's cell to at least say our goodbyes and tell her we would add more minutes in a few days, well all we got was ex and she said nope you wanna talk get her miniutes on her phone and we could hear SD crying in back ground.

So my husband told her of the divorce statement, the next day says she called her attorney and he supposedly told her she does not have to have a home phone as long as she has cell (ya fine but she left out the part she dont let SD use it).

What we deal with just to communicate with my SD is beyond reason, I dont hate the mother, I feel for her that she has to make everyone so miserable I honestly do pray for her, she must have some deep rooted issues, to act the way she does, she is hurtful to most of all her daughter, she is a compulsive liar (not being cruel, but have dealt with her for almost 8 years, even when I use to go out and beyond my way to befriend her for SD sake.)

I know noone has the perfect answer and I appreciate the feedback I get, just fustrating to know we do deal with alot with her and may not be detramental to SD in most ways the courts will see it but this woman is hurting her daughters mental wellbeing by all the bull she pulls.

SD is seeing for herself what her mom is like and does and is why she wnats out. I use to tell my husband to never speak badly of her mom wont do no good, (and not a right thing to do only hurt the child) in time mom will burn her own bridge, and it has begun.

[Gestalt]

LM...as a mediator I deal a lot with figuring out what can work, especially when court doesn't look like the most productive option (and if you think mom has a bad attitude now....wait til after dad and the "new mommy" try to take away her daughter...)

There is always an entire "option spectrum" the goes all the way from the ridiculous on one end to the ridiculous on the other, it's not just court or no court.

I'm going to throw out some options and you just think about them. Not saying any one of them is the right one...they are just options.


1. Skip the prepaid phone- get a parental control phone that only makes and accepts calls to a number you pre-program in- (your number)

2. Moving to mom's area is an option- an inconvenient option to be sure- but the one most likely to address every single issue and goal regarding the child. Te money saved in transportation costs could makes up any difference in income or cost of living.

3. Dad can try to talk to mom, not in the - hey you are doing all of this wrong way- but in the- you and I both know this sitch has sucked for a long time, what can we do together to make this comfortable for the next 7 years?

4. Dad could travel to daughter's area on a regular basis to spent time with her and give her more of his influence since he is worried about mom's example.



This is only 4 options.....there are probably a ton more, but these seemed the most reasonable to me off the top of my head.

[LIBBYSMOM2]

Gestalt, I like the phone idea, and would be willing to do this even pay the bill direct, but if we have to rely on ex to get it hooked up and set up since it will be in her home, and we are so far away, I dont see it happening she had the phone taken out in the first place to dampen communication with SD & us to begin with, she didnt unhook phone in 4 years till SD asked her mom if she could live with us.

We also tried the nice talk to her even to just give it try temparily, no changes in papers for a trial babsis, she how SD adjusted and liked it, would completely work with her...NOPE.

As far as moving back to her area, well I dont think that is an option, my husbands job is secure, has many amenities to give up couldnt find work back there that has the same to match it. He works in window plant and has worked very hard to climb the ladder to where he is at, (not to mention the window plant closing in Chicago area-and thats pretty close to ex's area).

Not to mention we have 2 other children who are and have been in this school system for 4 years now, and are very happy, we have an excellent school system, we are ranked 12 out of nation, I too work there.

i guess our option is to go with it and do our best to prove our points our attorney will advise us on how to go about it so we dont come hateful agianst mom and is more than just "feelings", we do not hate her mom just dont see it to be the best place for SD to have to live in.

Like Friday she stayed home from school was supposedly sick, but yet her mom took her to her freinds house on Friday night dropped her off didnt pick her up till Sunday night (we talked to her about 7pm was still @ friends), and then come Monday morning SD got up shut off her alarm and was starting to get ready and her stepdad told her to go back to bed it was "to cold" to go to school, SD called me told me this and then later found out it was HIS decision, not schools, she in fact did have school on Monday.

Then spent all day at home with stepbrother (brought him over to babysit) mom and stepdad gone all day he had to work, and mom had a "meeting at work".

[Kitty C.]

LM, I think what Gestalt is referring to is a cell phone.  You can buy it, activate it, and pre-program it so that the only calls that can be made are to you and/or 911.  That removes the possibility of the BM using for herself.  But you also run the risk of the BM taking it away, as well.

One suggestion I have heard before is getting an 800 (toll-free) number for your SD that she can memorize and use absolutely anywhere and any time and the only way the BM can interfere with it is to prohibit her from using the phone.  I would recommend that if you try a toll-free number, that you also have the availability to have that number forward, possibly to your DH's cell number, so that no matter what, she can get in touch with him any time, regardless of where he is.

[LIBBYSMOM2]

Ok that is an idea will check into the 800 number for our home number, will at least make it easier to call us when at someones house so not to charge their bill. Thank you!!!!

[Davy]

I'm responding to the overall living arrangements of your SD.  Considering mom's lifestyle, is it possible certain other criminal activities or neglectful acts might exist ?

Is it possible you could get mom to agree (without atty, court involvement) to collect CS while SD resides with you.  Eventually you should have standing to take custody.  Like others have posted the courts probably will not rule for the child (especially ILLINOIS).

[LIBBYSMOM2]

I KNOW WE HAVE HAD SAME WORRIES ABOUT THAT, WITH ALL THE DIFFERENT PEOPLE SHE LEAVES SD WITH. PLUS HER LAST MARRIAGE BEFORE THIS ONE WAS DIMENTED AS WELL WE HAVE HER WEDDING PICS WITH SD THERE THEIR MAIN WEDDING PHOTO WAS HER NEW GROOM HOLDING A HUGE BUTCHER KNIFE TO HER THROAT SHE ALL DRESSED MORE FOR FUNERAL THAN A WEDDING SD WAS 4 AT TIME.

WE WOULD OFFER HER THAT BUT THEN SHE COULD TAKE SD ABCK AT ANY TIME SHE WANTED TO OR CALL LAW SAY WE KIDNAPPED SD AND TRUST SHE WOULD. BUT THANKS FOR INPUT
AS WELL AS CONCERN.