Illinois dad and Moving out

[chidad]

My wife (mostly her) have decided that we need a break.  We have tried couples counseling and the last one suggested the same.  We have 2 boys, 2 and 5.  Before I move out, I wanted to make sure I understood the ramifications my action would cause.  We have decided that I would move near by, so I can be with the boys daily.  We are also working on a schedule for them to stay with me, but haven't gotten that far.  Any assistance or guidance would be appreciated.

[ocean]

Do NOT move out until you have an agreement that you want. Everything in writing signed by a judge or it is worth nothing. If she wants to move, fine, then the kids stay with you. Once you move out, it will be considered abandonment in the eyes of the law. Be VERY careful....this counselor seems to be on mom's side if she told you to leave the house..

[Davy]

Do not MOVE OUT.   Stay with the kids.  The entire system is against your children and you.  It is best for your children to have access to both parents in the future.  It is usually best for the father to be the major influence,  Many an Illinois mother have been assisted by the system to allow your children and the mother to be a burden on society.

It is best the mother MOVE OUT then for you to adjust and cope to overcome.

[shaden3]

My wife (mostly her) have decided that we need a break.  We have tried couples counseling and the last one suggested the same.  We have 2 boys, 2 and 5.  Before I move out, I wanted to make sure I understood the ramifications my action would cause.  We have decided that I would move near by, so I can be with the boys daily.  We are also working on a schedule for them to stay with me, but haven't gotten that far.  Any assistance or guidance would be appreciated.

It's a good thing you've reached out, but how you should handle this is really something you have to look in your own heart and mind to figure out. If you are wondering what the legal ramifications would be, it's best to find an attorney to guide you. If you are wondering what the relationship ramifications would be, then please heed the following: the way you set the tone for the future communications depends much on how this is handled now. To become immediately adversarial and expect that the court system is only there to support a mother is an extremely difficult path. It will likely cause ongoing mistrust, anger and conflict. For you to be openminded and considerate of the other party will only mean that she will be that for you, too. It's sad that you're facing the end of a marriage, but it seems that you've put your heads together to make sure you have daily contact with your sons. This is a positive thing. Please be cautious when you begin to stand your ground, hold firm to a position, that comes from other people's bad experiences. You have a chance here to create two loving homes, rather than one home that wasn't working for everyone. So, to that end, do consult with an attorney you believe does good work, and do remember that placing a chip on your shoulder will only be the beginning of bad things to come.

[Kitty C.]

'For you to be openminded and considerate of the other party will only mean that she will be that for you, too.'

Shaden, I have to vehemently disagree with you.  While refusing to leave may create an adversarial atmosphere, 'assuming' that the other party will be as accomodating is just being completely ignorant.  More than likely, to do so would open one up to being taken completely advantage of.  Why is it that once one parent (more often than not the mother) wants to split, it is assumed that the other parent MUST move out?  Personally (and I've done this myself), the person who wants to end the relationship should be the one to leave.

But it doesn't change the fact that if a parent leaves the marital home, the court can and often does view it as abandonment.  To think otherwise is to walk blindly and assume one will be treated fairly by all, which I have NEVER heard of in family court, and I've been on this website almost since inception.

If neither parent wants to move, then they will have to sit down and figure out how to split their time up in the home.  There are many alternatives: living on separate floors, one poster recently mentioned living in an apartment in a detached garage on the property, or obtaining an apartment and parents split their time between the two.  It's a matter of willingness of BOTH parties (one-sided will not work) to cooperate and getting creative with solutions.

[shaden3]

Kitty C: I'm glad you've taken me to task for my post. This gives me a chance to clarify and, of course, get a better understanding. It's important to note that I didn't respond to the original post with a suggestion to move out, but rather to begin the process with an open heart and open mind.

There is much pain in these forums, and many conflicts that seem intractable to the people who reach out. Please know that even the most high conflict situations can be dealt with better. There isn't a single case of conflict that is purely one-sided. We engage on many different levels, both subconsciously and in-your-face engagement. Telling the poster to immediately jump on the offense will only hurt the family.

Giving him hope, however, that all is not lost and that there is a chance he won't suffer the same ill-fate as others isn't arrogant or ignorant. It's only fair that he be told there are things he can do that will make his life better, without a mountain of legal bills and fighting, denied access to the children and certain heartache.

Most importantly, posters must decide for themselves what is best, and not be guided only by those who have had only bad experiences. These bad experiences are used in our lives to learn from, personally, but assuming that others will benefit from our own personal pain puts them on OUR angry roads. The poster needs to do what is best for him and for his family. Of course, legal advocacy was the only suggestion regarding making a decision to move out.

I likely could have constructed my post so that it was more clear, so thank you for pointing that out. It's never too late to change the way we talk to one another, never too late to help our children learn from communicating with respect (even if it's only one parent doing the hard work).

[Kitty C.]

Shaden, I'm not saying the OP has to 'jump on the offense'.  All I'm saying is that the OP should NOT automatically move out just because his spouse wants him to because she filed against him and assume that because he's being openminded and considerate, that will be reciprocated to him.  An adversarial situation only becomes that way through 'attitude', not 'deed'.  If they are able to talk about the situation and come up with an alternative (like the ones I mentioned in my earlier post) that is able to allow both parents equal time with the kids without either appearing to abandon them.

Just MHO, but I still say that the person who wants to end the relationship should be the one to leave (if someone absolutely HAS to leave), if they want it so bad.  If they don't, then they have an obligation to everyone else in the home to try to work it out.  And in a 'perfect' world, that would be a requirement when one initially files............yeah, and I'm winning the lottery and retiring to the Carribean, too! 

[gemini3]

My wife (mostly her) have decided that we need a break.  We have tried couples counseling and the last one suggested the same.  We have 2 boys, 2 and 5.  Before I move out, I wanted to make sure I understood the ramifications my action would cause.  We have decided that I would move near by, so I can be with the boys daily.  We are also working on a schedule for them to stay with me, but haven't gotten that far.  Any assistance or guidance would be appreciated.

I agree with the other posters - DO NOT move out until you have temporary orders signed by a judge.  I recommend that you have it drawn up by an attorney.  Illinois is one of the WORST states for father's rights.  If you leave you could end up seeing your kids four days a month and paying your ex out the wazoo while she lives in your house.

I agree with Kitty - if she's the one that needs a break then she should move out.  Unfortunately, if you tell her that, she'll go talk to a lawyer who will tell her exactly what she needs to do to get you out of the house, and it won't be pretty.

Consider:

• you're making what are probably the biggest financial decisions of your life
  
• you're dealing with the most powerful emotional and psychological issues that you'll probably ever have to face
  
• you're expected to create a binding agreement addressing all issues that will affect you and your children for the rest of your life and
  
• you're working without a net.

Remember - Illinois is one of the WORST states for father's rights.  I would recommend that you be as pro-active as possible.

[Davy]

Shaden, As far back as 1980 a grandfather and noted author concerning children issues published a book entitled "Our Endangered Children".  In that book he sited two states, Illinois and Washington,as particularly mean spirited and unfair towards children and their fathers.  That's not to say other states should get a pass because this is a sick societal problem.  Moreover, those two states were prone to taking in children from other states.  You may want to read untaxed financial rewards into the equation. 

I find your views towards family life, children and their mothers and fathers, as text book and off-centered in the real world.  We ALL wish the dissoloving of a family was as blue sky as you paint but in the real world it's not that easy at all.

My perspective, as a former board member of a so called "Father Rights" organization in TX with ugly experiences in 4 IL courts and 1 TX court is that people use that term for ease of communication in parallell to the divorce/custody industry.  I prefer to call it for what it is ...
a bias and prejudice against the children and their father.  We don't exist to play kissy-face with government workers including attorneys.

There is plenty of very useful infomation in the articles section on this site.  Fathers should learn to interview attorneys, manage the attorney and their case .....

.... and only leave the home kicking and screaming.


American by birth.  Texan by choice.  Illinois by court order.

[Kitty C.]

'.... and only leave the home kicking and screaming. '

Well spoken, Davy, and I agree with you 100%!  That being said, and considering your experiences, I was wondering what your opinion would be on my conclusion that whomever is requesting the separation/divorce should be the one to move out (if the situation necessitated it).  Since I've heard that women have a higher percentage of doing the initial filing, it would only stand to reason that it would be a higher percentage of them moving out, if this were to happen.

When this happened to me (twice!), I never asked the father to move out.  I was the one who wanted out of the relationship, so I left.  The first time, I left because the father was an alcoholic and abusive to me and negligent (driving drunk) with our son.  The second time, it was with DH (DS's stepdad) 5 years ago when we were having difficulties, which we resolved.......we were only out about 3 weeks.  I figured in both instances that since I was the one who wanted out, I should be the one to leave.  IMHO, any woman who wants a divorce and demands that the father leave is just plain greedy and I would seriously doubt any sincerity on their part regarding the situation.

But that's just me........

[tigger]

IMHO, any woman who wants a divorce and demands that the father leave is just plain greedy and I would seriously doubt any sincerity on their part regarding the situation.

I agree in theory but every situation is different.  In my situation, my ex had an affair with my best friend/wife of his best friend.  They thought we could remain married to our respective partners and they could keep seeing each other.  Uh, no.  I filed but only because he wasn't willing to work on the marriage and he wasn't willing to leave.  So technically, it looks like I wanted out of the marriage.  He wanted to remain in the marriage but wasn't willing to give up his mistress and he went outside the marriage first.  The "house" was in my name, purchased before the marriage and I didn't want to move the children away from their extended family (his family). 

Ironically, when I found out that he wanted to move back onto the property (9 years after the separation) but have me remain on the property as well (split 4.63 acres from his parents), I moved.  I bought a stick built house.  He turned in the trailer on a doublewide.  I had to sign it over to him for him to do that but it saved me the cost of removing it or the debris left after donating it to the fire department.

[Davy]

Kitty.  To respond to your inquiry and speaking in general terms I would agree that a disenchanted party should be the one to leave the home if is really necessary (disregarding actual abusive or immoral behavior).  I say that somewhat tongue-in-cheek because I try not to comment on the complexitity of adult relationships.  I'm more into the reaction of the system that somehow has the power to harm or destroy children.

I know enough of you over the years to say you are not typical and a strong individual to put aside vindicative behavior while realizing the value of the other parent to your child.  I function the same. She hasn't responded accordingly in 25 yrs....anniversary today.  There's always hope  especially considering three adult chldren hammer her every chance they get.

Please tell DH  some ole man  blew you a kiss today ...............

[Kitty C.]

Awwwwwwww, now yer makin' me blush!  I know that what we went through made our marriage SO much stronger.  And I have all the girls at work jealous of me because they think he spoils rotten!  As DH likes to say, I know how to keep the dog under the porch!     But we both know what we have with each other and we cherish that.....and yes, he knows just how strong I am, too!

Twenty five years.......hmmmmmm, if she hasn't figured it out by now, I'd say it's a lost cause.  But your kids have more determination that my SS does......he's just waiting for the next 3 years to get by, so he can tell the BM to kiss his backside and slam the door on his way out!  I actually feel kinda sorry for her, knowing that she will grow old lonely and alone....NOT!

The best was the call on Mother's Day from SS.....to tell me he loved me, right in front of his mother!

  Back at cha!!!!

[Davy]

Dog under the porch ?  I'll have to store that away in my ravished mind.  I guess that means DH no longer runs with the big cats so he just stays on the porch begging/mumbling here Kitty Kitty !!

[DadsCrushed]

Along the lines of the other posts: do NOT move out.

Also, start documenting everything. Keep journals per various subjects. Cancel joint credit cards and get hold of vital records.

[shaden3]

Chidad, do what's right for you and your kids.

[Davy]

Shaden,

This father has come to this board asking about the ramifications of the anticipation of moving away from his children and the family home.  He's no different than the rest of us forced to face all the issues and unknowns.  I'm glad he came here.  It has been my experience that many fathers may have already worked your common sensual advice.

Perhaps you have read a few magazine articles or a couple of chapters by another liberal and slanted 'thought' writer so you feel comfortable regurgitating your hoity toity philosophies.  To me, you seriously cross the line painting fathers about to lose their precious children (and vise versa) "with a chip on their shoulder", "angry", etc.  Essentially, in your own little sickness, you are bringing all of the ugliness of a possible family break down on the back of fathers.

The lifes and well-being of children are at stake and you keep guessing wrong  ..................
... Go Fish.

[gemini3]

Shaden,

Please understand that the reason we are all here on these boards is because we have seen first hand what the family court system does to children and their parents, and we hope to help other people so that they won't suffer the same losses that we have.

I personally don't feel that protecting yourself legally means you have a chip on your shoulder.  Family court is the only place in our great country that you can be stripped of your property, your assets, and your right to raise your own children without due process and for no other reason than the other party didn't want to be in the relationship anymore.  Regardless of whether or not you want to be in the marriage. 

In our country a system exists that seeks to siphon as much money as possible from non-custodial to custodial parents purely because they believe it saves them money on welfare expenses, and because they profit directly from the amount of child support collected.  One only needs to look at the current battle being waged in MA over the new child support guidelines which have increased NCP obligations by as much 59%.  How would you feel if someone told you that your mortgage payment has suddenly gone up 59%, and if you don't pay it you're going to jail.  And you have no recourse!!  They say debtors prison no longer exists in the United States - but it is alive and well when you're a non-custodial parent.

This man's children could end up seeing him 4-6 days a month (the standard).  How do you think the kids would feel about that?  Do you think they would feel like it was in their "best interest" to only see their father 4 days a month?  Because family courts do - and they will enforce it.  Even while our president goes on about the importance of fathers in the lives of children - our family courts forcibly separate fathers from their children on a daily basis.

When a system such as this exists, one cannot afford to try and be Mr. Nice Guy.  You do that until one party has decided they no longer want to be in the marriage.  Once that happens, you have to look out for yourself and your children.  The children are the ones who will suffer most in this situation.  Yes, this gentleman's wife has asked for a "break" - but by asking him to move out she is asking him to relinquish his rights to the children and their mutual assets.  I do not think it is wise for him to comply with this request.  If that upsets his wife, oh well.  If the shoe were on the other foot I am sure she would feel the same way.

[shaden3]

gemini: Your reply asking that I "Please understand that the reason we are all here on these boards is because we have seen first hand what the family court system does to children and their parents, and we hope to help other people so that they won't suffer the same losses that we have," is very much heard, considered, and entirely understood.

I have dealt with over 1,000 cases such as those posted on these boards. My professional life is dedicated (via a non-profit) to working with precisely the type of fear, pain, bad history and lousy court experiences that are discussed. However, the worst thing a conflict professional can do (and part of why a true, experienced and decent mediator can reap such beneficial results) is because one never asks that folks use the personal experiences of other people to guide them. In fact, when asked if I've got kids and what my situation is during sessions, the answer must always be, " This is about you and your family."

Family dynamics are so unique, so very private and different from other families' dynamics, that assuming the result of going to court or working via improving the way people talk to one another depends on those unique individuals. It's fine to tell people your experience, but advising them not to move out, to move out, to file particular petitions and garner damning documentation may not be the best for them. It may fuel a fire that could have been tamped by opening doors, rather than closing them.

I am sorry you've had such a bad time, that you believe your situation is untenable. My work is full of darkness and despair, but without finding a way to hand people their own situations back to them and asking that they consider ALL options (both adversarial and otherwise), there would never be those good days where people call to thank this agency for helping get them out of the hell they faced and toward some hope and control.

[gemini3]

Family dynamics are so unique, so very private and different from other families' dynamics, that assuming the result of going to court or working via improving the way people talk to one another depends on those unique individuals.

I see where you're coming from, but disagree with you on this point.  I do not believe that the outcome of going to court depends on the individuals.  I believe that it's based on a set of archaic and unbalanced laws.  Often times both individuals, the mother and the father, leave court feeling like what happened was not in their best interest and totally out of their control.

Please understand that am not saying that this man should not attempt a collaborative divorce or mediation, or try to get along with her.  I am saying that, if he decides to move out, he should do so with a safety net.  However he chooses to negotiate that with his wife.  It doesn't have to be adversarial.  But in IL, in order to be binding, I do believe it has to be signed by a judge.  I don't think that there is anything wrong with that.  Given the situation facing men in divorce, I believe that is the prudent thing to do.

I think it's absurd to tell someone not to use the experiences of others to guide them.  Isn't that the whole point of written history, research, case law, etc?

[Davy]

sladen,


Your femine side and bias for women is showing.  So now you're saying your book learned counseling experience overrides many many others that lived in reality as they stood in court rooms virtually with their hands tied behind their back and forced to observe government practices that would certainly lead to the ruination of their children.

There were many times I saw the pain in my children eyes with an absent mother but the pain was as great as with an absent father.  What will the lives of these children look like 5 , 10, 15 or 20 years from now if the father or mother leaves .   

This father and mother have been in counseling with an outcome for the father to be separated from his children thus starting the engine of the status quo which will likely get revved-up.  He will be the SOB no matter what. 

It may be unspoken but what is being said by just about everyone (except you) is to take the lead, stay at home, and work things out.  If SHE HAS TO to have a break it should be her that leaves.  So be it.  She probably should not have had children in the first place. 

 

[shaden3]

sladen,


Your femine side and bias for women is showing.  So now you're saying your book learned counseling experience overrides many many others that lived in reality as they stood in court rooms virtually with their hands tied behind their back and forced to observe government practices that would certainly lead to the ruination of their children.

There were many times I saw the pain in my children eyes with an absent mother but the pain was as great as with an absent father.  What will the lives of these children look like 5 , 10, 15 or 20 years from now if the father or mother leaves .   

This father and mother have been in counseling with an outcome for the father to be separated from his children thus starting the engine of the status quo which will likely get revved-up.  He will be the SOB no matter what. 

It may be unspoken but what is being said by just about everyone (except you) is to take the lead, stay at home, and work things out.  If SHE HAS TO to have a break it should be her that leaves.  So be it.  She probably should not have had children in the first place. 

 

Davy:
It would be a terrible breach of my professional ethics to advocate for someone based on gender, and exploring options is, in no way, equal to counseling. In truth, much of my job is specifically designed to help safe dads remain and become involved. I am glad to report that what I do is extraordinarily unbiased, balanced, honest and hard work.It is meant to heal and help, not judge and offer advice.

As for the sadness in your children's eyes, it is a sad thing, and I am sorry for any parents that find themselves dealing with such terrible situations. It's okay for you to offer your words when someone posts. However, Davy, I respectfully ask that you give me that same level of respect without making harmful and terribly wrongful assumptions that I have a bias for any person in any situation. Re-reading the posts may bring to light that the thread is not based in reality, and that there have been pretty expedient and gut reactions without the care necessary to read what what was truly implied vs. what was inferred.

[ocean]

Shaden,
I am not sure what you do but some type of mediation is my best guess...
When you have parents who come to mediation, they are tying and are able to talk to each other. The poster asked us what we thought about moving out and everyone told him there view on the system. If you can stay out of the system, that is great but once you are in, it is mother driven (and I am a mother! LOL). It depends on the state you are in, the county your in, and then the judge and how they are feeling that day.

If his wife is "asking" him to move out, she may have people on her side telling her what to do. (and getting him out is GREAT for her case). Once he leaves, he becomes the NCP parent immediately. Then with no court order, it is up to how mom is feeling that day for him to see kids. When custody is being decided, they will see mom having kids and give them either sole or joint custody and the "standard" visitation..every other weekend, one day during the week. How is this fair? System is not right. It takes months and months to get a decision on custody. If he can get an agreement (even if it is just a seperation agreement) now with shared custody that would be his ONLY gurantee to keep his rights as a father, or else he is in the hands of his ex.

[shaden3]

The original post:

"We have decided that I would move near by, so I can be with the boys daily.  We are also working on a schedule for them to stay with me, but haven't gotten that far."

We need to be careful not to make other people's pain our own, nor assign our own tragedies to other people's future.

[Kitty C.]

Shaden, shaden........you just don't get it.  We're not taking this on as our own, far from it.  The primary reason for these forums is to share ideas regarding child custody issues.  Us 'oldtimers' who have been to he!! and back have a pretty good idea of what works and, more importantly, what DOESN'T work.  When someone posts a comment like the one to OP did, all we're trying to do is to head them off at the pass (so to speak) to save him and his family from the inevitable heartache and damage that can be done by that decision.

We're trying to give those who are just coming into this 'experience' the wisdom (or lack thereof!) of our own.  Given that different jurisdictions have different laws and standards, what works for one may not necessarily work for another........every situation can be different.  But in some instances...like in this one........the outcome can be universal......many who have come here know that and/or have experienced that.  This site is for the children and we're trying to preserve the parent/child relationship.  All we're trying to do is pass on the knowledge and experiences we've had so that others won't have to suffer what we went through.

And lastly......we deal with reality here..........not philosophy.........

[shaden3]

Here's a sampling from a portion of the posts. The worst of the personal attacks are not sampled here. It's obvious that all posters are well-intentioned and very caring about other peope's problems. I'm just asking that you take a look at the tone and meaning of these words and ask yourself if this being really helpful or you worrying about the poster and translating your fears:

"Be VERY careful....this counselor seems to be on mom's side if she told you to leave the house."

"...entire system is against your children and you."

"If you are wondering what the legal ramifications would be, it's best to find an attorney to guide you."

"More than likely, to do so would open one up to being taken completely advantage of."

"... the person who wants to end the relationship should be the one to leave (if someone absolutely HAS to leave), if they want it so bad.  "

" If you leave you could end up seeing your kids four days a month and paying your ex out the wazoo while she lives in your house."

"I prefer to call it for what it is ...a bias and prejudice against the children and their father.  We don't exist to play kissy-face with government workers including attorneys."

" There's always hope  especially considering three adult chldren hammer her every chance they get."

"The best was the call on Mother's Day from SS.....to tell me he loved me, right in front of his mother!"

One other thought (or plea) - I know this is a forum mostly by and for parents living apart. However, please don't discount what other people can bring to the table assuming that they don't understand your dilemma and assuming they haven't experienced personal crises and horror.

It has been my experience that many fathers may have already worked your common sensual advice. Perhaps you have read a few magazine articles or a couple of chapters by another liberal and slanted 'thought' writer so you feel comfortable regurgitating your hoity toity philosophies.  To me, you seriously cross the line painting fathers about to lose their precious children (and vise versa) "with a chip on their shoulder", "angry", etc.  Essentially, in your own little sickness, you are bringing all of the ugliness of a possible family break down on the back of fathers. The lifes and well-being of children are at stake and you keep guessing wrong  .................. ... Go Fish.

It has been my experience that many fathers may have already worked your common sensual advice. Perhaps you have read a few magazine articles or a couple of chapters by another liberal and slanted 'thought' writer so you feel comfortable regurgitating your hoity toity philosophies.  To me, you seriously cross the line painting fathers about to lose their precious children (and vise versa) "with a chip on their shoulder", "angry", etc.  Essentially, in your own little sickness, you are bringing all of the ugliness of a possible family break down on the back of fathers. The lifes and well-being of children are at stake and you keep guessing wrong  .................. ... Go Fish.

It has been my experience that many fathers may have already worked your common sensual advice. Perhaps you have read a few magazine articles or a couple of chapters by another liberal and slanted 'thought' writer so you feel comfortable regurgitating your hoity toity philosophies.  To me, you seriously cross the line painting fathers about to lose their precious children (and vise versa) "with a chip on their shoulder", "angry", etc.  Essentially, in your own little sickness, you are bringing all of the ugliness of a possible family break down on the back of fathers. The lifes and well-being of children are at stake and you keep guessing wrong  .................. ... Go Fish.

Essentially, in your own little sickness, you are bringing all of the ugliness of a possible family break down on the back of fathers. The lifes and well-being of children are at stake and you keep guessing wrong  .................. ... Go Fish.

It has been my experience that many fathers may have already worked your common sensual advice. Perhaps you have read a few magazine articles or a couple of chapters by another liberal and slanted 'thought' writer so you feel comfortable regurgitating your hoity toity philosophies.  To me, you seriously cross the line painting fathers about to lose their precious children (and vise versa) "with a chip on their shoulder", "angry", etc.  Essentially, in your own little sickness, you are bringing all of the ugliness of a possible family break down on the back of fathers. The lifes and well-being of children are at stake and you keep guessing wrong  .................. ... Go Fish.

Essentially, in your own little sickness, you are bringing all of the ugliness of a possible family break down on the back of fathers. The lifes and well-being of children are at stake and you keep guessing wrong  .................. ... Go Fish.

[shaden3]

Aaagh. Obviously I stink at working these posts. Please forgive all the extra stuff at the bottom.

[Davy]

youstinkshaden,

Well finally you said something I can agree with.

If you've gone fishing please go knowing I meant everything I posted.

If you post again do not even begin to post anything negative about a parent without just cause.

[MomofTwo]

Davy said " It is usually best for the father to be the major influence"...Interesting, since you come on this board and act like a two year petulent child, who when faced with a difference of opinion, resorts to childish antics and name calling.  I am sure you have been a great major influence in your children's lives. (rolling eyes).  Spare me what a great Dad you are and your story. Everyone has their story and difficulties of their experiences. Your story doesn't make you or your opinion matter anymore than anyone else's trials and tribulations and doesn't give you the right to act the way you do.

It's a shame that the intent of this board is lost by abrasive, attacking, posters who criticize others for a difference of opinion.   

Shaden, some people, who have extensive knowledge and dealings with family law, applaud the advice to TRY to approach it from a non-adveserial position.  There was nothing wrong with that advice.  Not every divorce has to be contentious and not every post has to result in the childish mentality the prior poster resorted to.

For the original poster... leaving a property does not result in abandonment of the property, but what it does tell a judge, is that when you left (no matter if it is Mom or Dad leaving the house and children), that by that parent  leaving the children in the other parent's care, you are saying you feel that child is safe and that parent is capable of being the custodial parent.  If the divorce proceedings drag out, as many do, then when it comes time to decide actual custody,  many judges do not like to change status quo and will leave the arrangements exactly how they have been during the proceedings. So, if you move out and do not have an agreement, or one that gives you EOW, then it is highly likely that is exactly what your custody would be at the time of the final proceedings.  If you do not want that, and want to be sure from day one to be a constant in your children's lives, be sure to get your agreement in detail and  court ordered before moving out. 

Regarding taking the non-adveserial approach, there are a million lawyers who will keep you fighting. It doesn't help you, your ex and most important, the children to have a contentious divorce.  The ONLY ones it helps is the lawyers you have to keep paying. The more contentious, the more money.   Shaden's advice is good...there are many lawyers now who take a collborative mediation approach.  If you can both agree to that approach, it will save you time, money, and stress for all involved.

[shaden3]

MomofTwo: Your balanced and thoughtful response is very helpful. We share vision of making sure people know their options and make decisions based on what they know about the legal system and about their own personal family dynamics. Pretty much, people benefit when they define their own hopes and dreams about being moms and dads while living apart.

I would only add that, just as we go shopping for clothing and try items on, we do the same for all the people out there who ask that we give them fees and provide professional services. "Try on" the attorneys, the mediators, the therapists, the financial experts, etc.

Family lawyers, by the way, tend not to choose family law for the big payoff. The work is stressful and low paying, so lots of them care about these families. Some aren't very skilled and others are jaded. Many have biases and make assumptions about gender stereotypes.

So shop around. Finding a conflict pro who knows what the words "transformative mediation" mean is important, too. An attorney should never act as a mediator (at the same time), and review attorneys for another attorney's/mediator's work is important.

However, in the end, getting the two parents who have to live with these challenging and inconvenient new schedules and lifestyles to MAKE the decisions by putting their heads together usually means longer term agreements and less conflict for the kids to witness.

Kids just want to love both parents without guilt. We've got to help them do that with our professional words and our personal stories.

[Davy]

slade and momofftoo :

Y'all have seemingly teamed up and preceive yourself's as the dynamic duel.  Your deceptive  batman and robin psycho babble has the look and feel of a prayer meeting on a psych unit.  Just for your feeding, a disagreeing Psych recently told me I was "Oppositional".  Without hesitancy but with surprise  I exclaimed  "Oppositional.  That's a new word to my vocabulary and I'm disappointed.  Usually people say I'm Confortational". He was stilll laughing 10 days later. Hopefully, that will give you something to nibble on for a while and you won't have to make up chit.

Your posts are advocating divorce and sole custody to mother (Illinois does not cotton to Joint) and placing these young children at risk.  The OP was simply asking the ramifications of 'moving away' from his children and the family home.  Screw your "MAYBE EOW visitation" ...

On the other hand, I dispise divorce and otherwise I'm adamant that children are best served if they are allowed to be loved and nutured (and vice-versa) by both parents.  The
hope, for this OP, is to stay where he belongs and that the parents learn to value each other.  The worst thing for a family is to turn their life over over to counselors, attorneys, pro-doomafagies, judges, etc.  The evidence is over whelming.

Y'all suck ...so nibble away.

[MomofTwo]

Davy,
I feel bad for you...angry, hostile, and illiterate must be a terrible way to have to live your life.  If you want to come across as superior, you may want to use a dictionary.  English is fundamental. You would appear much more intelligent if you could at least spell correctly when you criticize me.  Hard to take you being superior to me when you can't even spell.

Y'all have seemingly teamed up and [STRIKE]preceive yourself's[/STRIKE]  PERCEIVE YOUSELVES as the dynamic [STRIKE]duel[/STRIKE] DUO. Your deceptive  batman and robin psycho babble has the look and feel of a prayer meeting on a psych unit.  Just for your feeding, a disagreeing Psych recently told me I was "Oppositional".  Without hesitancy but with surprise  I exclaimed  "Oppositional.  That's a new word to my vocabulary and I'm disappointed.  Usually people say I'm [STRIKE]Confortational"[/STRIKE] CONFRONTATIONAL.  He was [STRIKE]stilll[/STRIKE] STILL laughing 10 days later. Hopefully, that will give you something to nibble on for a while and you won't have to make up chit.

Your posts are advocating divorce and sole custody to mother (Illinois does not cotton to Joint) and placing these young children at risk.  The OP was simply asking the ramifications of 'moving away' from his children and the family home.  Screw your "MAYBE EOW visitation" ...

On the other hand, I [STRIKE]dispise[/STRIKE] DESPISE divorce and otherwise I'm adamant that children are best served if they are allowed to be loved and [STRIKE]nutured[/STRIKE] NURTURED (and vice-versa) by both parents.  The
hope, for this OP, is to stay where he belongs and that the parents learn to value each other.  The worst thing for a family is to turn their life over [STRIKE]over[/STRIKE] to counselors, attorneys, pro-doomafagies, judges, etc.  The evidence is over whelming.

Y'all suck ...so nibble away.


We suck – ok. I will take that any day of the week over illiterate, unkind, and ignorant.   To clarify,  nowhere did Shaden nor I advocate Mom as being sole custodian (not only can't you spell, but apparently you can't read either) or giving Dad EOW.

[Davy]

momOFFTOO,

First, I could care less how you feel about me or what you say about me.  One thing is certain, I don't exist to promote your self-serving ego.   

Another thing for certain, as you nibble, you show yourself to really suck as anti-male and anti-child.  But best thing is that for fathers not familiar with the issues and unknowns you depict the low-life mentality that is out there when the lights are off.  Hopefully you will continue to post to contrast the truth.

I think it would be good to repeat the summation for the matter at hand of my last post since you have attempted to turn this thread inward to yourself AGAIN :

I despise divorce and otherwise I'm adamant that children are best served if they are allowed to be loved and nutured (and vice-versa) by both parents.  The hope, for this OP, is to stay where he belongs and that the parents learn to value each other.  The worst thing for a family is to turn their life over to counselors, attorneys, pro-doomafagies, judges, etc.  The evidence is over
whelming.


... this post contains error(s) to give momOFFTOO something important to do .......

[CDAN99]

Let's stay on topic with the thread and stay away from personal attacks in the best interest of SPARC and everyone here. Thanks!

[Davy]

cdan...thanks.  do you have any input on the subject matter of this thread ?

[Kitty C.]

Staying on topic also means refraining from 'baiting' and pushing buttons..........

JMHO.........

[Davy]

Whatever !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One has to wonder why a counselor would not recommend the mother move from the home and away from the kids.  Seems the kids may be at risk the next time "she needs a break" and dad is not around to protect them. 

Practically speaking, it is difficult if not impossible to work toward a positive outcome in a relationship if one party in the equation is absent.

[shaden3]

"My wife (mostly her) have decided that we need a break.  We have tried couples counseling and the last one suggested the same." - Chidad

Davy, please be assured that it does not appear that the counselor went so far as to suggest that it was the dad move who should move out, but rather all we can and should surmise from the posting is that the counselor agreed that the two need to move apart from one another for whatever reasons.

This is a good idea - that we look again at the thread, adhere to the content of the original posting and try to help Chidad with his query.

[Davy]

The posting also said "we have two boys, ages 2 and 5" and before daddy moves out he was asking about the ramifications of his actions.  The children are the significant issue . A counselor is involved in the lifes of these children for only a brief moment in time.

Numerous current posters at SPARC set out to explain the ramifications of his actions and to HELP CHIDAD from authentic life experiences.  Please note that not one poster, except one other, suggested the father move out or take the children with him when he moves out.  Personally, I wish MYSONSDAD from IL and others still posted here.

It is apparent CHIDAD is attempting to prevent what you call a "personal tragedy" so he posted on SPARC.  Otherwise, he could have contacted IL DCFS or others funded my HHS.

Let's play "What IF" for a moment.  "What IF" ChiMom had posted the same only reversed as it pertains to Dad.  My advice would be the same as it was to ChiDad.  What would be your counsel ?